I know what you mean about conflict resolution. It is a must in my job and also at home . It seemed that all TWI taught me was how to argue and react to those reacting to me. phhhew how exhausting that was. It requires much more brain power to stay calm and look for solutions.
I always tell my little one "It's not what you say, it is how you say it"
This is turning out to be a really great thread. Not in spite of the "passionate heated exchanges" but because of them
Because of my own experiences (or lack thereof), I did not get caught up in the emotional issues that camt to light. I'm not any better or "more mature" than anybody else, I just never had some of those experiences personally...so I think it was easy for me to be more "detached".
Mark this thread. When it is time to let it sink into the cyber-abyss, come back and read it again. There is a lot of learning here.
If I could change all the names and repost most of this, I would.
Don't misunderstand. I think the passionate exchanges were great because they were so honest. I'm sorry if feelings got hurt. But sometimes that happens even in a so called "good clean" fight (I'm talking as in boxing rules, here)
All of this because a bunch of people wanted to see some pics of the CFF thingy....
When the Shroyers were in town, I actually went to a CFF fellowship to see them. That was the only reason I went. I really like John and Mary Lou and wanted to see them. But it was difficult to go to a home fellowship again.
I was apprehensive. I was also obstinate. I didn't bring my bible. I went with an attitude that I wasn't going to like it.
And I didn't. I, me, myself, Hope, did not like the MEETING part of the fellowship. Why? Because it was too, "Wayish" for me.
quote:Take your song books and turn to number 53, 'At Calvery'
~~~~~~~~shiver~~~~~~~~~~~~
But, the people were wonderful. They weren't mean or hateful or demanding. The Shroyers were terrific - as loving and kind as I remember them. After the meeting we talked A LOT about TWI and he shared some of his history with the organization. Nothing that's a secret, it's just not my story to tell.
I am happy for those who have found a spiritual refuge in CFF. I am also happy for those who have found a spiritual refuge in a church.
But I have to agree with Evan. I don't want to go to any group who is not affiliated with a main stream church, whose minister hasn't gone through the seminary - a REAL one...
Once upon a time, there was a need and a purpose for the "home fellowship" stucture, and it worked for a while. It was better when we were young because we weren't necessarily comfortable around our "parents" religion. For the most part, we were kids teaching kids. It was cool, it was fun.
I'm a grown up now (some would beg to differ), and I like a nice big congregation and a choir and a band...a minister who is comfortable and knowledgable enough to quote from other Christian sources and authors without mocking them.
I like all the church has to offer. It's not at all like I was led to believe - a building that was only occupied on Sunday. Most churches around here (and I'm not familar with many outside of my area) have things going on every night of the week, and much of the day also.
I certainly don't want to sit in a circle of chairs looking at the same 6 people three times a week, singing from the same old blue book and repeating the same tired, dull doctrines of an organization that hasn't grown or changed with the needs of its people.
CFF? It's great for those who want to go. Is it a cult? IMO, not yet. Right now I think it's a potential cult. I hope I'm wrong.
Hope R. color>size>face>
edited for speling mistackes
[This message was edited by Hope R. on August 07, 2002 at 16:51.]
Let us recall that Rev. Splinter was ordained by CFF.
You are known by the company you keep. I wonder if Rev. Splinter will be making his PFAL/butt hygeine remarks to CFF followers, or are they reserved for those to whom he reveals his other face?
He certainly represents the heart & soul of TWI today. Wonder why they threw his foot out. Maybe he was too nasty for TWI. (Is that possible?)
Or did he leave because he didn't like the way they treated people? Yeah, right.
Just didn't like the way he fumbled thru every Zep song thats all. Its just my ego I always thought I could play better than him even when I was 12yrs old. Damn bad brain bad
I guess I at least need to weigh in a bit on this thread since I'm referred to, etc.
The first thing I need to say is that I understand that there are a galaxy of reactions to the abuse we all experienced at the hands of twi. And I state it as excatly that, the hands of twi... It was NOT God. It was people, misguided, who thought they were doing His will when they actually were working for the other side! Some have reacted to the point where they have rejected God. Others have reacted to the extent that they shun everything twi. But I maintain that there still is a God and there still is a Bible and the truth is greater than all of us.
There are some who still hunger for the truth even though they were ravaged by misguided "waybots", lcm henchmen and wanna-bes. So now even though I have somewhat of a voice on this forum, having been here from the beginning and even before on Waydale, I still think that it would be unethical for me to commend myself or to commend the organization that I have chosen to affiliate myself with. Therefore, I say that wherever your searching heart finds a home, that's fine with me. Many have found a home for their hearts at CFF. That's wonderful. I am not an official spokesman for them, but I believe that at least I can say that all we want to do is to bless and to heal God's people.
I did say those things that someone quoted from the website. But they were written long before Greasespot even existed. They were said back in the days of Waydale. They are part of my first CFF teaching and posted on that site. I cannot change them now even though I have learned much since about vpw. However, one thing that I think we need to realize is we need to separate the doctrine from the practice. If you check out my "Top Ten" which was posted on Waydale and on this site, they primarily focus on practice.
In my opinion today after many hours of soul searching and study, I say that most of the principles presented in the foundational class are still sound. However, I agree with everyone that the practice of them certainly was soured and became corrupt.
Of all the heart-cries in this thread, I think that the statement of Long Gone is the most poignant.
_______________________________________________
"In my opinion, the primary issue shouldn't be Wierwille's personal life, corrupt as I think it was. The main issue should be the foundation he built. If it was a good foundation and TWI was a good and godly work brought down by Martindale and the successors to the original BOT, then building a Christian work on a similar foundation is a good idea. If the problems of TWI were natural outgrowths of the foundation that Wierwille laid, then building a Christian work on a similar foundation is a bad idea.
________________________________________________
What is going to prove this to be true or not? Will it be the witty sophistries presented on this site? Will it be the anguished cries of those still hurt lashing out? Or will it be fruit, long term results that cannot be faked?
I for one still believe that there is a God and I was dissatisfied with the lukewarm, systemetized offerings of denominational Christianity. Maybe there are others out there who are likewise disenchanted with what else there is available. So if CFF or CES or any other offshoot has something to offer which may help to assuage the hurt and the breach of trust that we all suffered at the hands of lcm and twi, I say great. At least someone is trying to help people who are hurting. If you find you fit great, if not I hope you can find a place where you can feel at home. There certainly are others on this site who have done so.
For the rest whose words may on the surface seem to be harsh and challenging, I say I think I understand your situation. I love you and I want to help if you will let me, not for my gain or that of the organization I fellowship with but for your gain and God's. I hope that you all get over the damage suffered at the hands of lcm and twi and move on with your lives. I will be here to help you if you ever wish my assistance, for there is nothing you could say which could stop me from loving you.
quote: "In my opinion, the primary issue shouldn't be Wierwille's personal life, corrupt as I think it was. The main issue should be the foundation he built. If it was a good foundation and TWI was a good and godly work brought down by Martindale and the successors to the original BOT, then building a Christian work on a similar foundation is a good idea. If the problems of TWI were natural outgrowths of the foundation that Wierwille laid, then building a Christian work on a similar foundation is a bad idea.
Well what do we know already?
Is PFAL a firm foundation, law of believing and all? No, it isn't. It is a patchwork of plagiarized work and bogus scholarship. To accept PFAL, the "harmony of the gospels" for instance, you must close your eyes to a world of better scholarship outside of Wayworld. RG knows this. "Faith" should come from hearing, not from stopping your ears, but that is what Wierwille's organization insisted upon.
Did TWI work just fine until Martindale showed up? Not if you talk to those who watched early on as Wierwille dumped successful and inspired leaders on both coasts to get control of the money and the corporation. Plenty of other stuff happened well before Craig showed up, as happy and stupid as "Odie" in the Garfield comic and long before he was poisoned. One might read "The Cult That Snapped," by what's-his-name for further information.
RG, you never did answer laleo's question. Neither did you define or refute those "witty sophistries," leaving me to wonder if you aren't indulging yourself in a bit of wink n' nod inuendo. Couldn't be. Love rejoices in the truth. Must be my imagination.
Long Gone says give it a chance. If it's of God (so to speak) it will flourish. The Mormons have been saying that for decades, and flourishing. TWI flourished until it stopped flourishing. Roman Catholicism has certainly flourished. Islam is really, really flourishing today. Will CFF ("Can't Fault the Fuhrer" - I wish I'd thought of that but it belongs to somebody else) flourish? It may depend less upon God's will than upon good management and a certain, rabid zeal.
I remember the old fellowships, and the love, and the good stuff from TWI 1. It was officially gone by the time I arrived, but there were plenty of "remnants," individuals and fellowships, to experience before Wierwille's "God Squad" drummed them out of Wayworld. It was good.
But it was not good for the reasons we believed. It was good because TWI's deceptions were close enough to some higher truth to allow the best in us to manifest itself.
Maybe CFF can recreate those sweet deceptions for a while, and maybe that will permit some brief return to the idyllic, groovy Way days gone by. It can't last because the deception, being after all a foundation of sand, will faulter under the weight of human nature. Some new transmogrification of Martindale's memory will arrive to reap the harvest left in the field, as with TWI, and so many other insignificant little movements.
Sure, give it a try. But you so-called "leaders" should experiment with your own lives, not anyone else's. It never works out that way, does it?
Satori, I didn't say give it a chance. I said that I think the foundation is faulty. I said that the splinter group leaders have no business setting themselves up as teachers. I said that I think that people would be wise to look elsewhere.
I have no more regard for Wierwille, his teachings, or his legacy that is carried on in various splinter groups than you do. I just don't have to be ugly all the time.
Well, I must say that I had a splendid time at the reunion. The Word of God that was taught was so healing...about God's grace. God's grace in life, in relationships, heirs of grace and also in healing. That's why I went to the weekend, for the Word to refresh my soul. It was nice that I could talk intimately with people about the Word of God. I would say of the the people who came to the reunion, that there was about an average of 30 years in the Word. I am talking about depth. Depth and perception about the Word of God. I go where I get fed. I go where God leads me.
In my estimation, the reason they have these weekends is so people's hearts can be blessed with the Word of God.
It was one of the best times I've had in a long, long time and I am going back next year.
quote:I hope that you all get over the damage suffered at the hands of lcm and twi and move on with your lives.
you left out wierwille
i disagree about separating his walk from his doctrine but we are allowed to disagree
what i?m saying is i think it is more than just his ?personal life? and what he practiced - you know - more along the lines that he was a false teacher who made merchandise of us, corrupted the word of God, handled it deceitfully and stuff like that
i do not have any ill feelings toward you or CFF people (except i think rev. nick splinter is a big jerk)
but i do think you guys might be building a cult on a cult. but time whatever will tell, maybe we'll never be sure until we no longer see thru a dark glass, God surely knows
and i thank you for your kindness and good wishes, i mean it
[This message was edited by excathedra on August 08, 2002 at 10:07.]
Its the word and nothing but the word tap the finger.
if a person just wanted to know what THE BIBLE teaches there is many hours available in that weekend where one could pray to God for an education and study it for yourself, or go to University where it is truly a academic achievment.
no it is because you wanted to learn what they taught. and find others who do agree.
and you did .
I know the routine of why very well
the next step would be a personal attack on a sin of mine or something to discredit any valid credit to this possible truth of the group think of I am so ok and now you are too cause we had a meeting about it!
What makes a group good or bad? Could it be something as simple as motivation?
I'm not talking about right or wrong, as can anyone say honestly that one group is fully right and another fully wrong?
Anybody who has dealth with WC or JS of CFF, would agree that they are very good hearted people. Their fruit also suggests this.
Now if they are the leaders of CFF, then I cannot fully speak againts the group in it's current format.
But....
I have noticed it's usually the power hungry people that ultimatly end up at the top of these types of groups. There is just not enough protection againts it.
For example, they are 'ordaining people' very quickly, instead of allowing them to prove themselves over many years.
They are making IMHO similar mistakes that lead to twi getting to where they are today, with the exception of no VP or martindale...yet.
RG: "I did say those things that someone quoted from the website. .... I cannot change them now even though I have learned much since about vpw."
You could say whether or not you still think the same things. You could just come right out and say whether or not you think of VPW as an apostle and "our father in the Word." You haven't. I think that's pretty telling.
RG: "However, one thing that I think we need to realize is we need to separate the doctrine from the practice."
I think it would be wise to realize that you can't separate corrupt practice from the corrupt doctrine that facilitates it. The practice is the fruit of the doctrine.
RG: "Of all the heart-cries in this thread, I think that the statement of Long Gone is the most poignant."
That was no heart-cry. That was a statement of opinion, worded in the most diplomatic way I could manage. I'll be more straightforward.
My opinion of Wierwille as a person is that he was corrupt at least as far back as the fifties and that he became quite evil over time. The evidence of his personal corruption in the form of repeated plagiarism is overwhelming and undeniable. The evidence of other forms of corruption and evil is more than convincing, in my opinion.
More importantly, I think that Wierwille's doctrinal system was designed from the beginning, at least in part, to facilitate the satisfying of his personal lusts (not only sexual). Even where it was not specifically designed for that purpose, I think that his personal corruption corrupted his teachings, on a foundational level.
None of that extends, by default, to his former followers. However, if they are using Wierwille's teachings as the foundation of their doctrinal system, the corruption that interlaced those teachings will interlace their system as well. Just as corrupt doctrine facilitated Wierwille's corrupt practice, their corrupt doctrine will also facilitate corrupt practice, whether that is intended or not.
Without going into doctrinal particulars, I'll say why, imo, the foundation of PFAL is built on sand, or worse. From the very get-go, session 1, it is a man-driven, man-determined, man-actioned religion in the completest sense. These things are then reinforced in the ensuing sessions. The approach to the Bible (session 4 and following)is again completely unChristian, a product of human logic and "research". Then the floodgates for evil are flung wide with Wierwille's disclaimer of sin and making "broken fellowship" and "sin consciousness" the greatest problems...and then elimnates Christian repentance!
The true things VP? says are so tied into this shaky foundation I find it impossible to have a solid foundation without completely repudiating the belief system.
quote:i disagree about separating his walk from his doctrine but we are allowed to disagree
what i?m saying is i think it is more than just his ?personal life? and what he practiced - you know - more along the lines that he was a false teacher who made merchandise of us, corrupted the word of God, handled it deceitfully and stuff like that
Most of you must know by now that there were bible verses used to justify the MOG's sexual misconduct. Young women were lured into the coach believing they were "blessing the MOG". The verses used were in 1 Kings 1:1-4
quote:I Kings 1:1 Now king David was old [and] stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat.
1Ki 1:2 Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat.
1Ki 1:3 So they sought for a fair damsel throughout all the coasts of Israel, and found Abishag a Shunammite, and brought her to the king.
1Ki 1:4a And the damsel [was] very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him:
But they left out 1:4b - BUT THE KING KNEW HER NOT!
And they also used v.15 & 16 to show that even David's WIFE didn't mind it.
quote:1Ki 1:15 And Bathsheba went in unto the king into the chamber: and the king was very old; and Abishag the Shunammite ministered unto the king.
1Ki 1:16 And Bathsheba bowed, and did obeisance unto the king. And the king said, What wouldest thou?
This was to allieviate the guilt these women felt over betraying Mrs. MOG.
There were other verses besides these. An old friend of mine who had this happen to her told me all about it.
So it wasn't just practice, it WAS doctrine. Super secret doctrine given only to those who were able to "handle" it (no pun intended).
It makes me sick just thinking about it.
Yes, the bible was handled deceitfully - and cunningly. And LCM learned it from his master.
Ging, I like the movie "Tombstone" too. Great flick, and Val Kilmer plays Doc really well.
I think your use of that line "I'm your huckleberry" (here's your/I'll be/whatever) was rather cool. The way Val delivers it, it sounds like he's saying "come on, let's play. Bring it on". It's a no-fear, look-you-straight-in-the-eye kinda thing. In the movie, Ringo wants no part of it, then let's his ego get the better of him thinking ol' Doc is on his last breath anyway. Poor Ringo.
Anyway, we need a picture so here's one:
-----
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
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I know what you mean about conflict resolution. It is a must in my job and also at home . It seemed that all TWI taught me was how to argue and react to those reacting to me. phhhew how exhausting that was. It requires much more brain power to stay calm and look for solutions.
I always tell my little one "It's not what you say, it is how you say it"
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krys
This is turning out to be a really great thread. Not in spite of the "passionate heated exchanges" but because of them
Because of my own experiences (or lack thereof), I did not get caught up in the emotional issues that camt to light. I'm not any better or "more mature" than anybody else, I just never had some of those experiences personally...so I think it was easy for me to be more "detached".
Mark this thread. When it is time to let it sink into the cyber-abyss, come back and read it again. There is a lot of learning here.
If I could change all the names and repost most of this, I would.
Don't misunderstand. I think the passionate exchanges were great because they were so honest. I'm sorry if feelings got hurt. But sometimes that happens even in a so called "good clean" fight (I'm talking as in boxing rules, here)
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Hope R.
Geez...
All of this because a bunch of people wanted to see some pics of the CFF thingy....
When the Shroyers were in town, I actually went to a CFF fellowship to see them. That was the only reason I went. I really like John and Mary Lou and wanted to see them. But it was difficult to go to a home fellowship again.
I was apprehensive. I was also obstinate. I didn't bring my bible. I went with an attitude that I wasn't going to like it.
And I didn't. I, me, myself, Hope, did not like the MEETING part of the fellowship. Why? Because it was too, "Wayish" for me.
~~~~~~~~shiver~~~~~~~~~~~~
But, the people were wonderful. They weren't mean or hateful or demanding. The Shroyers were terrific - as loving and kind as I remember them. After the meeting we talked A LOT about TWI and he shared some of his history with the organization. Nothing that's a secret, it's just not my story to tell.
I am happy for those who have found a spiritual refuge in CFF. I am also happy for those who have found a spiritual refuge in a church.
But I have to agree with Evan. I don't want to go to any group who is not affiliated with a main stream church, whose minister hasn't gone through the seminary - a REAL one...
Once upon a time, there was a need and a purpose for the "home fellowship" stucture, and it worked for a while. It was better when we were young because we weren't necessarily comfortable around our "parents" religion. For the most part, we were kids teaching kids. It was cool, it was fun.
I'm a grown up now (some would beg to differ), and I like a nice big congregation and a choir and a band...a minister who is comfortable and knowledgable enough to quote from other Christian sources and authors without mocking them.
I like all the church has to offer. It's not at all like I was led to believe - a building that was only occupied on Sunday. Most churches around here (and I'm not familar with many outside of my area) have things going on every night of the week, and much of the day also.
I certainly don't want to sit in a circle of chairs looking at the same 6 people three times a week, singing from the same old blue book and repeating the same tired, dull doctrines of an organization that hasn't grown or changed with the needs of its people.
CFF? It's great for those who want to go. Is it a cult? IMO, not yet. Right now I think it's a potential cult. I hope I'm wrong.
Hope R. color>size>face>
edited for speling mistackes
[This message was edited by Hope R. on August 07, 2002 at 16:51.]
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satori
Let us recall what Rev Splinter said to Dot Matrix.
Let us recall that Rev. Splinter was ordained by CFF.
You are known by the company you keep. I wonder if Rev. Splinter will be making his PFAL/butt hygeine remarks to CFF followers, or are they reserved for those to whom he reveals his other face?
He certainly represents the heart & soul of TWI today. Wonder why they threw his foot out. Maybe he was too nasty for TWI. (Is that possible?)
Or did he leave because he didn't like the way they treated people? Yeah, right.
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mj412
I know
but try to remember these folks can not hear negatives about the leaders.
But I think it needs to be said and that is why i post on GS.
it is a mind set.
it is something to believe in .
it is what they believe is right.
People can always dig garbage , we all must have ears to hear it satori.
We do love those we love and hate those we hate and it blocks rational thought.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
TheSongRemainsTheSame
Free to Be
From: A1A, Fl, USA
Registered: June 17, 2002
Posts: 92
I came home from many a TWI FUNction and remember trying to CONvince everyone the I witness of the event and what they missed...
TheSongRemainsTheSame no matter if it's 70's style TWI... postedAugust 06, 2002 20:26 August 06, 2002 20:26[][][] [][]
INDEBTSAYSWHO
Free to Be
From: Ohio
Registered: June 13, 2002
Posts: 32
WOOOO Did you think that up all by yourself Geez Jimmy Page sucked at guitar.IMNSHO []
Fightin crimes of daway
1st amendment works both ways in Stow Oh postedAugust 06, 2002 21:12 August 06, 2002 21:12[]
Hiya IDSW....
Nice one...
Hey... the letters you use in the formation of your handle... did you think them up???
Jeesh must be an original ...
Ehhh... Pagey may "suck" to you... kewl...
I see your anger face...
wUZ UP WID DAT???????
Rok On...
William Steven Holloway
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INDEBTSAYSWHO
Just didn't like the way he fumbled thru every Zep song thats all. Its just my ego I always thought I could play better than him even when I was 12yrs old. Damn bad brain bad
Fightin crimes of daway
1st amendment works both ways in Stow Oh
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
...I forgot you were there...
As far as urinating upon W's grave... would not give the headstone nor his dry bonez the pleasure...
As far as VPW & LCM's children... I could not even go there... That, to me, is a train of thot like thinking about infinity.
As far as CFF= 70's TWI... now there I can go... but been der, done dat...
As far as being stupid... well, ya know what Gump said...
..."Good grief..."
Charley Brown
... and what was that football scene with Lucy...???
With that ... I pass...
..."There now... We can be friends..."
oneyedjackswild1
..."I had a dream..."
TheSongRemainsTheSame
...I saw a Wierwolf drinking bath water at Stow, Ohio...
Oh, they were doing the Weirwolf of New Knoxville...
hmmm...
...Whew , My head...
Rock On...
Boggie With Stu
LZ
Stevo...
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Research Geek
Hi everyone,
I guess I at least need to weigh in a bit on this thread since I'm referred to, etc.
The first thing I need to say is that I understand that there are a galaxy of reactions to the abuse we all experienced at the hands of twi. And I state it as excatly that, the hands of twi... It was NOT God. It was people, misguided, who thought they were doing His will when they actually were working for the other side! Some have reacted to the point where they have rejected God. Others have reacted to the extent that they shun everything twi. But I maintain that there still is a God and there still is a Bible and the truth is greater than all of us.
There are some who still hunger for the truth even though they were ravaged by misguided "waybots", lcm henchmen and wanna-bes. So now even though I have somewhat of a voice on this forum, having been here from the beginning and even before on Waydale, I still think that it would be unethical for me to commend myself or to commend the organization that I have chosen to affiliate myself with. Therefore, I say that wherever your searching heart finds a home, that's fine with me. Many have found a home for their hearts at CFF. That's wonderful. I am not an official spokesman for them, but I believe that at least I can say that all we want to do is to bless and to heal God's people.
I did say those things that someone quoted from the website. But they were written long before Greasespot even existed. They were said back in the days of Waydale. They are part of my first CFF teaching and posted on that site. I cannot change them now even though I have learned much since about vpw. However, one thing that I think we need to realize is we need to separate the doctrine from the practice. If you check out my "Top Ten" which was posted on Waydale and on this site, they primarily focus on practice.
In my opinion today after many hours of soul searching and study, I say that most of the principles presented in the foundational class are still sound. However, I agree with everyone that the practice of them certainly was soured and became corrupt.
Of all the heart-cries in this thread, I think that the statement of Long Gone is the most poignant.
_______________________________________________
"In my opinion, the primary issue shouldn't be Wierwille's personal life, corrupt as I think it was. The main issue should be the foundation he built. If it was a good foundation and TWI was a good and godly work brought down by Martindale and the successors to the original BOT, then building a Christian work on a similar foundation is a good idea. If the problems of TWI were natural outgrowths of the foundation that Wierwille laid, then building a Christian work on a similar foundation is a bad idea.
________________________________________________
What is going to prove this to be true or not? Will it be the witty sophistries presented on this site? Will it be the anguished cries of those still hurt lashing out? Or will it be fruit, long term results that cannot be faked?
I for one still believe that there is a God and I was dissatisfied with the lukewarm, systemetized offerings of denominational Christianity. Maybe there are others out there who are likewise disenchanted with what else there is available. So if CFF or CES or any other offshoot has something to offer which may help to assuage the hurt and the breach of trust that we all suffered at the hands of lcm and twi, I say great. At least someone is trying to help people who are hurting. If you find you fit great, if not I hope you can find a place where you can feel at home. There certainly are others on this site who have done so.
For the rest whose words may on the surface seem to be harsh and challenging, I say I think I understand your situation. I love you and I want to help if you will let me, not for my gain or that of the organization I fellowship with but for your gain and God's. I hope that you all get over the damage suffered at the hands of lcm and twi and move on with your lives. I will be here to help you if you ever wish my assistance, for there is nothing you could say which could stop me from loving you.
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ex10
Thank you, RG, for being the rock that you are.
Love to you and yours,
ex10
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Zixar
Post redacted.
Never mind.
[This message was edited by Zixar on August 07, 2002 at 20:32.]
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satori
Well what do we know already?
Is PFAL a firm foundation, law of believing and all? No, it isn't. It is a patchwork of plagiarized work and bogus scholarship. To accept PFAL, the "harmony of the gospels" for instance, you must close your eyes to a world of better scholarship outside of Wayworld. RG knows this. "Faith" should come from hearing, not from stopping your ears, but that is what Wierwille's organization insisted upon.
Did TWI work just fine until Martindale showed up? Not if you talk to those who watched early on as Wierwille dumped successful and inspired leaders on both coasts to get control of the money and the corporation. Plenty of other stuff happened well before Craig showed up, as happy and stupid as "Odie" in the Garfield comic and long before he was poisoned. One might read "The Cult That Snapped," by what's-his-name for further information.
RG, you never did answer laleo's question. Neither did you define or refute those "witty sophistries," leaving me to wonder if you aren't indulging yourself in a bit of wink n' nod inuendo. Couldn't be. Love rejoices in the truth. Must be my imagination.
Long Gone says give it a chance. If it's of God (so to speak) it will flourish. The Mormons have been saying that for decades, and flourishing. TWI flourished until it stopped flourishing. Roman Catholicism has certainly flourished. Islam is really, really flourishing today. Will CFF ("Can't Fault the Fuhrer" - I wish I'd thought of that but it belongs to somebody else) flourish? It may depend less upon God's will than upon good management and a certain, rabid zeal.
I remember the old fellowships, and the love, and the good stuff from TWI 1. It was officially gone by the time I arrived, but there were plenty of "remnants," individuals and fellowships, to experience before Wierwille's "God Squad" drummed them out of Wayworld. It was good.
But it was not good for the reasons we believed. It was good because TWI's deceptions were close enough to some higher truth to allow the best in us to manifest itself.
Maybe CFF can recreate those sweet deceptions for a while, and maybe that will permit some brief return to the idyllic, groovy Way days gone by. It can't last because the deception, being after all a foundation of sand, will faulter under the weight of human nature. Some new transmogrification of Martindale's memory will arrive to reap the harvest left in the field, as with TWI, and so many other insignificant little movements.
Sure, give it a try. But you so-called "leaders" should experiment with your own lives, not anyone else's. It never works out that way, does it?
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LG
Satori, I didn't say give it a chance. I said that I think the foundation is faulty. I said that the splinter group leaders have no business setting themselves up as teachers. I said that I think that people would be wise to look elsewhere.
I have no more regard for Wierwille, his teachings, or his legacy that is carried on in various splinter groups than you do. I just don't have to be ugly all the time.
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tippy
Well, I must say that I had a splendid time at the reunion. The Word of God that was taught was so healing...about God's grace. God's grace in life, in relationships, heirs of grace and also in healing. That's why I went to the weekend, for the Word to refresh my soul. It was nice that I could talk intimately with people about the Word of God. I would say of the the people who came to the reunion, that there was about an average of 30 years in the Word. I am talking about depth. Depth and perception about the Word of God. I go where I get fed. I go where God leads me.
In my estimation, the reason they have these weekends is so people's hearts can be blessed with the Word of God.
It was one of the best times I've had in a long, long time and I am going back next year.
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satori
Sorry for the confusion. Thanks for the clarification. By the way you were being quoted I must have jumped to the same conclusion as a few others.
Regards...
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excathedra
jon, thank you for your post
you left out wierwille
i disagree about separating his walk from his doctrine but we are allowed to disagree
what i?m saying is i think it is more than just his ?personal life? and what he practiced - you know - more along the lines that he was a false teacher who made merchandise of us, corrupted the word of God, handled it deceitfully and stuff like that
i do not have any ill feelings toward you or CFF people (except i think rev. nick splinter is a big jerk)
but i do think you guys might be building a cult on a cult. but time whatever will tell, maybe we'll never be sure until we no longer see thru a dark glass, God surely knows
and i thank you for your kindness and good wishes, i mean it
[This message was edited by excathedra on August 08, 2002 at 10:07.]
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excathedra
ps. you could always ask CFF's web site to edit that teaching if you don't feel that way
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mj412
now Im going to get it....
you sound like
Its the word and nothing but the word tap the finger.
if a person just wanted to know what THE BIBLE teaches there is many hours available in that weekend where one could pray to God for an education and study it for yourself, or go to University where it is truly a academic achievment.
no it is because you wanted to learn what they taught. and find others who do agree.
and you did .
I know the routine of why very well
the next step would be a personal attack on a sin of mine or something to discredit any valid credit to this possible truth of the group think of I am so ok and now you are too cause we had a meeting about it!
we found out the word says sooo.
have at it .
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Dexter
What makes a group good or bad? Could it be something as simple as motivation?
I'm not talking about right or wrong, as can anyone say honestly that one group is fully right and another fully wrong?
Anybody who has dealth with WC or JS of CFF, would agree that they are very good hearted people. Their fruit also suggests this.
Now if they are the leaders of CFF, then I cannot fully speak againts the group in it's current format.
But....
I have noticed it's usually the power hungry people that ultimatly end up at the top of these types of groups. There is just not enough protection againts it.
For example, they are 'ordaining people' very quickly, instead of allowing them to prove themselves over many years.
They are making IMHO similar mistakes that lead to twi getting to where they are today, with the exception of no VP or martindale...yet.
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LG
RG: "I did say those things that someone quoted from the website. .... I cannot change them now even though I have learned much since about vpw."
You could say whether or not you still think the same things. You could just come right out and say whether or not you think of VPW as an apostle and "our father in the Word." You haven't. I think that's pretty telling.
RG: "However, one thing that I think we need to realize is we need to separate the doctrine from the practice."
I think it would be wise to realize that you can't separate corrupt practice from the corrupt doctrine that facilitates it. The practice is the fruit of the doctrine.
RG: "Of all the heart-cries in this thread, I think that the statement of Long Gone is the most poignant."
That was no heart-cry. That was a statement of opinion, worded in the most diplomatic way I could manage. I'll be more straightforward.
My opinion of Wierwille as a person is that he was corrupt at least as far back as the fifties and that he became quite evil over time. The evidence of his personal corruption in the form of repeated plagiarism is overwhelming and undeniable. The evidence of other forms of corruption and evil is more than convincing, in my opinion.
More importantly, I think that Wierwille's doctrinal system was designed from the beginning, at least in part, to facilitate the satisfying of his personal lusts (not only sexual). Even where it was not specifically designed for that purpose, I think that his personal corruption corrupted his teachings, on a foundational level.
None of that extends, by default, to his former followers. However, if they are using Wierwille's teachings as the foundation of their doctrinal system, the corruption that interlaced those teachings will interlace their system as well. Just as corrupt doctrine facilitated Wierwille's corrupt practice, their corrupt doctrine will also facilitate corrupt practice, whether that is intended or not.
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satori
Ba... da... bing!
Ba... da... bing!
Ba... da... bing bang BOOM!
Good follow-up there, LG. I was wondering some of that stuff too.
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TheEvan
Doctrine and practice are not separatable...
Without going into doctrinal particulars, I'll say why, imo, the foundation of PFAL is built on sand, or worse. From the very get-go, session 1, it is a man-driven, man-determined, man-actioned religion in the completest sense. These things are then reinforced in the ensuing sessions. The approach to the Bible (session 4 and following)is again completely unChristian, a product of human logic and "research". Then the floodgates for evil are flung wide with Wierwille's disclaimer of sin and making "broken fellowship" and "sin consciousness" the greatest problems...and then elimnates Christian repentance!
The true things VP? says are so tied into this shaky foundation I find it impossible to have a solid foundation without completely repudiating the belief system.
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Hope R.
Ex said:
Most of you must know by now that there were bible verses used to justify the MOG's sexual misconduct. Young women were lured into the coach believing they were "blessing the MOG". The verses used were in 1 Kings 1:1-4
But they left out 1:4b - BUT THE KING KNEW HER NOT!
And they also used v.15 & 16 to show that even David's WIFE didn't mind it.
This was to allieviate the guilt these women felt over betraying Mrs. MOG.
There were other verses besides these. An old friend of mine who had this happen to her told me all about it.
So it wasn't just practice, it WAS doctrine. Super secret doctrine given only to those who were able to "handle" it (no pun intended).
It makes me sick just thinking about it.
Yes, the bible was handled deceitfully - and cunningly. And LCM learned it from his master.
Hope R. color>size>face>
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socks
Ging, I like the movie "Tombstone" too. Great flick, and Val Kilmer plays Doc really well.
I think your use of that line "I'm your huckleberry" (here's your/I'll be/whatever) was rather cool. The way Val delivers it, it sounds like he's saying "come on, let's play. Bring it on". It's a no-fear, look-you-straight-in-the-eye kinda thing. In the movie, Ringo wants no part of it, then let's his ego get the better of him thinking ol' Doc is on his last breath anyway. Poor Ringo.
Anyway, we need a picture so here's one:
-----
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
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