Why is it such a threat that Zix goes and experiments with his Christianity?
I see monkeys in the best tree on the Serengeti calling out to one that found perhaps good shade in another.
God owes me a million bucks? flat out.
I was looking for a tiny eencee nail that you use to hang pictures with, and I had a curious thought: ask God and he will show you where it is? and then I thought, hell no, I?m not blowing my wish on that, God owes me a million dollars, no I mean 10 million, and that after taxes of course.
(cause I reasoned that if God Almighty the Supreme Commander of all matter could find this little missing nail that is bagged and taped to a Dollar Store picture? He could also locate for me a million, I mean 10 million dollars, too, after taxes.
I got the picture hung without God showing me where the nail was.
So I am not really pushing a CFF agenda here? kno what I mean?
I love the phrase we are all entitled to our own opinion.
Why?
Why are we entitled to have an opinion of someone or something we know nothing about, have never met or ever intend to meet?
Am I entitled to an opinion about your sons or daughters? Do I have the right to shout about how they are liars or idiots? Do I have the right to publically debate on their motives behind actions that I think they took. No, I do not.
You gals debate on what CFF named the burgers and why. Yet none of you know whether burgers were served or named or why. How idiotic this all is. (I am commenting on what I have actually read and experienced first hand on this thread.)
Some of you ladies give new meaning to the phrase vicious gossip.
I can't speak for anyone else but I wasn't on a witch-hunt when I went to CFF's web site. I was simply curious. I didn't quote from "Paul's Foundational Class" in order to tear at anyone. I quoted what I did because it tells the foundation on which CFF is building.
It isn't necessary to attend a CFF function to have a pretty good idea about it. It is obvious that it is patterned after pre-LCM TWI and that its leaders think that VPW was an apostle and their father in the Word. They are patterning their ministries after his. They are building on his foundation, or a recreation of it.
In my opinion, the primary issue shouldn't be Wierwille's personal life, corrupt as I think it was. The main issue should be the foundation he built. If it was a good foundation and TWI was a good and godly work brought down by Martindale and the successors to the original BOT, then building a Christian work on a similar foundation is a good idea. If the problems of TWI were natural outgrowths of the foundation that Wierwille laid, then building a Christian work on a similar foundation is a bad idea.
Long gone: Well said. CFF can be thought of as sort of a test case for "Way-like beliefs", for want of a better term.
What better test to see if there actually was a baby in all that bathwater we threw out when we left TWI? With no Wierwille, Martindale, or Tree structure, a policy of openness, and keeping finances at the twig level, who knows what could have become of TWI?
I think it's worth finding out, one way or the other. (No pun intended.)
"What better test to see if there actually was a baby in all that bathwater we threw out when we left TWI? With no Wierwille, Martindale, or Tree structure, a policy of openness, and keeping finances at the twig level, who knows what could have become of TWI?
I think it's worth finding out, one way or the other. (No pun intended.)
"
I'm sure Vince and JL both feel they kept the baby and threw out the bathwater too when they started their offshoot ministries long before CFF opened their doors. Both Vince and JL were apart of TWI1 that many here seem to think was the holiest of holy times in the TWI history.
Why not just merge your efforts and get along with each other istead of seperating yourself from others? Personally I think all these x-way leaders are still enslaved by their super egos..instilled in them by the teaching and example of their "father in the Word" VP and continue to live with this seperatist and devisive condescending approach which isolates them from the other groups.. I believe their teaching podiums still reflect a "We are right ..they are wrong" attitude.
I guess I agree with Zix ... my question is whether or not TWI 1 had any baby in it ...maybe it was all bathwater from the start?
If TWI were the RC Church, the splinters might be the reformation offshoots. Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists... Each with their own personalities.
In the end they will each pay their own lipservice to a God they do not know and render a disservice to the followers they entertain.
**
But does it really matter? Reading the thoughts of people who want to follow, maybe it's good to keep them occupied and off the streets. I mean, where would those followers go if these splinters weren't around?
They'd only wait for another shepherd to come along and promise them the Great Beyond. I mean, 70 virgins might sound like more fun than 5 crowns, but is the promise all that different? "For a hamburger today, I would gladly pay you for two, tomorrow."
**
Tell you what. Follow me instead. I PROMISE that after you die, you will come back to re-live this lifetime, but the Supreme Bippy, your new deity, will deposit a million bucks in a Swiss bank account for you. SB tells me you'll be much better looking next time around, and taller, and you'll be able to avoid all the mistakes you made this time. Yes YOU can re-live the PAST! And do it in style!! But wait, there's more!
You will shrewdly invest your cool mil in Microsoft (or your penny stock of choice) long before anyone else does and leverage it into a Solomon's fortune.
You will retain all your knowledge from this go-around so you will be able to prevent all kinds of accidents, save the Twin Towers, and all kinds of good stuff. Everyone will love you. Amaze neighbors and friends. Get that hotty that never gives you a 2nd look into the sack without even trying!
Just follow my teachings below and I promise this will come true - after you die.
Lesson One: Send me all your money, except what you need to live and maintain an income.
Lesson Two: If you're a hot babe (and legal), present yourself at my doorstep wearing nothing but a trenchcoat and take a number. (If not, see Lesson One.)
I sure could use a foot massage, and a back rub, and... well it's tough being an apostle. I have big needs ya know. But you'll be rewarded BIG TIME, just as soon as you kick the bucket.
satori: Not very original, I'm afraid. The Church of the Sub-Genius offers most of what you do, as well as "Eternal Salvation or TRIPLE Your Money Back!!!"
Napkinlady, are you talking to me? are you calling my opinion vicious gossip?
BTW, The men were the ones that brought up the WOW Burgers and it was all a joke. Are you offended that we joked about WOW Burgers? Have you no sense of humor? Or are you offended that I don't care to give CFF a try? You are wrong if CFF is a model of TWI then I do know a thing or two about it. At least their beliefs of the Bible being perfect, Jesus Christ not God anyone that doesn't believe this has no freedom of will, blah, blah, blah. I don't believe any of these things, therefore, I will not be signing up for their classes. I especially don't believe anything that VP said.
I do like RG because when he is confronted with questions, he is a true gentleman and gives us honest answers without getting all hot under the collar. Grace under pressure. I respect him for that.
If you think that is vicious gossip then you need to get out more often.
Zixar, I am not ignoring you BTW. I am glad to hear that you did not mean to slight Excathedra with your comment thank you for your explanation. However, I still think your comment to Ginger was over the top and I was surprised at your reaction. It is not like you to bash a lady.
John Shroyer was WONDERFUL to me after I got kicked out of twi. Any experience I had with this group was great. Any experience I had with someone that went to CFF was great.
Why can't some of you just let that be someone's opinion? Can't the posters that went be allowed to have a good time there?
Your memories of twi hold such power over you, your bitterness really ....es all over someone's good time.
Adios/Steve: Some days my tolerance for other people's crap isn't as high as on others. Ginger jumped all over me for something that was ancillary to the topic at best, so I responded in kind. Then, true to form, off she went on some scatterbrained (flighty? ditzy? unfocused? irrelevant? Pick your favorite synonym.) tangent about the Tombstone movie. As for "noise", here's the definition of that: "A disturbance, especially a random and persistent disturbance, that obscures or reduces the clarity of a signal." I stand by my description.
Ginger's a big girl and can start and finish her own fights. Even if not, there's plenty of people around here who'll rush up to her with a cookie and a "Pay no attention to the nasty man, Gin-gin!" or somesuch. I doubt she's half as fragile as folks make her out to be.
Now, are we going to continue to heap noise on the signal, or squelch it and return to the topic?
I've said this before here at the cafe, so if I sound redundant, many apologies.
After being involved with the way, for my latter teens and most of my 20's, I found myself flung into the real world at age 28 or so, not having very good conflict resolution skills.
Working in the "business world," I found myself in a job where resolving conflict was mostly what I was called upon to do. I realized pretty quickly that I was clueless. While I was involved with the way, relationships stayed pretty shallow because people never seemed to be able to work out their differences or resolve problems. Group think mentality prevailed.
Perhaps many of us excultees just need to sharpen our skills a little, and maybe just maybe the cafe is a place where we can "practice?"
Ok, ok, I know I belong to the "why can't we just all get along" group.
As far as RG and CFF goes, I have no experience except here at GS. But I must say, that RG has always impressed me as one who is both a gentleman and a scholar, and handles himself with grace and poise. That impresses me. And even though I don't agree with alot of his ideas and opinions, etc., I respect what he has to say because of his composure and consideration of others' views. He doesn't seem to mind the harder questions. I admire that trait in him. I feel the same way about many of the posters here.
So there, I said it. I think it's probably possible for us to all express ourselves without the jabs and barbs, but then again, what do I know?
I can still disagree with someone, yet respect them as a fellow human. I might not want to have some over for dinner, but then again, I'm not always welcome either. C'est la vie.
you could not tolerate ginger's scatterbrained derailings with your due sense of exhaustion and dread and your buffer was full before she ever said anything about tombstone.
**
to others, i'm sure there are great people in CFF (like you here) and you had a great time at your family reunion. shroyer sounds like a very nice guy too. and as i said on one of the other threads (about father wierwille) i like jon from knowing him as research geek.
but i hold the opinion that twi was a cult before martindale took the mantle. and i don't think it's wrong to discuss the fact that CFF seems to be a good old days of the way ministry.
is it a secret? there should be nothing to hide if they believe they are right.
But don't you think these words are a little too harsh:
"Ginger's a big girl and can start and finish her own fights. Even if not, there's plenty of people around here who'll rush up to her with a cookie and a "Pay no attention to the nasty man, Gin-gin!" or somesuch. I doubt she's half as fragile as folks make her out to be."
I've given no cookies out, but did put in a 'beg' at my poll thread. hehehe
Ginger is a big girl, and so is Ex for that matter. I just want to remind you that they are ladies, and should be treated with the dignity that comes with that title.
Agree or dis-agree with them to your heart's content. I have on a few occaisions. You have that space and privelage, with anyone who visits here. All I ask is that you treat Ginger and Ex with the respect due a lady..................even if they fight like a man.
I feel that I know (perhaps just hope) you hear what I'm saying.
firebee: With respect, your sense of chivalry is notable, even admirable; however, especially in our "enlightened" society, one man's noble chivalry can be another woman's patronizing chauvinism. Women are at no physical disadvantage on the internet, so coddling them is more of an insult than a compliment. Well, in my opinion, anyway.
At any rate, I don't blame Excathedra one bit for not wanting anything to do with anything remotely "Wierwillian." That's entirely her right, especially in light of what she suffered directly from VPW, and she's welcome to it. I don't even think she and I were really arguing that point, up until Ginger flew off the handle because she thought I was.
The point is, I can see WHY excathedra feels as she does. I'd be biased too, in her shoes, and I certainly wouldn't ask her to go to a CFF meeting. People who've been bitten by a snake will tend to freak out at a garden hose later. It's only natural.
However, "guilt by association" has always been a facetious argument. It's the basis for all bigotry, from racism to sexism, and everything in between. Judging a group by the actions of a few is just plain stupid, especially in this case, where the malefactors aren't even part of the group being condemned. Even more stupid is an individual condemning a group based solely on hearsay!
As long gone said, if there is a bad foundation after all, CFF will not stand. If there is a good foundation, it will prosper. Each splinter will live or die on its own merits. So far, CFF looks good. In contrast, what little dealings I've had with John Lynn's CES group lead me to believe they've got a serious screw loose. (Momentus, personal prophecy, no eternity in heaven, etc.) If it's not easy to be intreated, it's probably not the Word, after all. C'est la vie.
TWI gave us a perfect example of what happens when the congregation isn't vigilant.
Steve: Oh, I'm certain I've been harsher in the past. Go look up some of the furballs Satori and I had, way back when. There are certain situations where being rude is the only way to drive home a point.
It's not up to me to decide who is or is not welcome here. Some people obviously get a kick out of the "stream of consciousness" types.
But I don't have to like it, and I don't. I refuse to be censored for the sake of popularity. Some are just going to have to read what I write and hate my guts for it. My guts aren't here for anyone to love, after all.
What better test to see if there actually was a baby in all that bathwater we threw out when we left TWI?
Since you asked...
I think that what TWI became is a natural result of the foundation on which it was built. I think that people whose "spiritual perception and awareness" was dull enough that they couldn't see the manifestations of TWI's problems until the late nineties have no business setting themselves up as teachers of classes on how to walk by the spirit. I think that people who want to "see if there was a baby in all that bathwater" would be wise to look elsewhere than to people who supported TWI for years, even during the Martindale years, apparently unable to tell that the bathwater was filthy or unwilling to pull the stopper for fear they'd go down the drain with the filth.
I also think that people can do what they want.
[This message was edited by Long Gone on August 07, 2002 at 13:51.]
long gone: That's a valid point. The only defense I could offer is that all of us have been in situations where we didn't act as precisely as hindsight would dictate. In other words, better late than never.
"...and not base your judgement on one really bad example."
the only example i am basing my judgment on is wierwille
**
this is what started it (i think)
i only shrugged when you first said it because i didn't know how to handle your saying why let him stress me out from the grave or something like that (i have heard that before and don't think it's fair)
to tell you the truth, i was thankful for ginger's post
and then you were so mean to her
again you said something about him being dead and displacing blame for abuse or something
i quoted these again after you said them because you said you didn't mean and i asked you what you meant. what did you mean ?
**
okay, you were referring to the splinter guy and dot, but still even that, CFF JUST ORDAINED HIM, are you saying they don't stand behind this guy who says you couldn't wipe your behind without PFAL. come on, when you ordain someone into your ministry, i would think you back them up or agree with them
**
i want to defend ginger, not only because she defended my abuse stuff, but also because she questions things and isn't afraid to question and she makes sense to me about life and individuality and being your SELF
**
i would not want to join another offshoot, but not just because wierwille destroyed my "SELF" for a long time, it's because if the group seems to hold him in high esteem, i think they have a cult problem
**
ps. did you just call me "stupid" before because of guilt by association
Long Gone & Zixar, may I add to your excellent posts:
I can't imagine listening to a "teacher of the Word" (sic) who hasn't done a thorough education in mainstream Christianity. The only problem: the level of work, variety, "chaos" (in that there are a wide range of well-considered ideas out there) scholarship, and challenging calls to actually demonstrate Christ & His love is MUCH harder work than just taking your current body of knowledge and marketing (ok "making it available" is less inflammatory) it to a ready audience who likewise doesn't want to deal with friendly mess that is the Body of Christ.
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jediknight777
Why is it such a threat that Zix goes and experiments with his Christianity?
I see monkeys in the best tree on the Serengeti calling out to one that found perhaps good shade in another.
God owes me a million bucks? flat out.
I was looking for a tiny eencee nail that you use to hang pictures with, and I had a curious thought: ask God and he will show you where it is? and then I thought, hell no, I?m not blowing my wish on that, God owes me a million dollars, no I mean 10 million, and that after taxes of course.
(cause I reasoned that if God Almighty the Supreme Commander of all matter could find this little missing nail that is bagged and taped to a Dollar Store picture? He could also locate for me a million, I mean 10 million dollars, too, after taxes.
I got the picture hung without God showing me where the nail was.
So I am not really pushing a CFF agenda here? kno what I mean?
JedI..
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jediknight777
I didnt read the thread completely, I read Zix's post and some of GT's and then like I skipped over a whole bunch of posts and then, boom posted.
Is that a sin?
Is that posting without hindknowledge.
j...
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napkinlady
I love the phrase we are all entitled to our own opinion.
Why?
Why are we entitled to have an opinion of someone or something we know nothing about, have never met or ever intend to meet?
Am I entitled to an opinion about your sons or daughters? Do I have the right to shout about how they are liars or idiots? Do I have the right to publically debate on their motives behind actions that I think they took. No, I do not.
You gals debate on what CFF named the burgers and why. Yet none of you know whether burgers were served or named or why. How idiotic this all is. (I am commenting on what I have actually read and experienced first hand on this thread.)
Some of you ladies give new meaning to the phrase vicious gossip.
Napkinlady
Fold TWI, Fold!
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LG
I can't speak for anyone else but I wasn't on a witch-hunt when I went to CFF's web site. I was simply curious. I didn't quote from "Paul's Foundational Class" in order to tear at anyone. I quoted what I did because it tells the foundation on which CFF is building.
It isn't necessary to attend a CFF function to have a pretty good idea about it. It is obvious that it is patterned after pre-LCM TWI and that its leaders think that VPW was an apostle and their father in the Word. They are patterning their ministries after his. They are building on his foundation, or a recreation of it.
In my opinion, the primary issue shouldn't be Wierwille's personal life, corrupt as I think it was. The main issue should be the foundation he built. If it was a good foundation and TWI was a good and godly work brought down by Martindale and the successors to the original BOT, then building a Christian work on a similar foundation is a good idea. If the problems of TWI were natural outgrowths of the foundation that Wierwille laid, then building a Christian work on a similar foundation is a bad idea.
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Zixar
Long gone: Well said. CFF can be thought of as sort of a test case for "Way-like beliefs", for want of a better term.
What better test to see if there actually was a baby in all that bathwater we threw out when we left TWI? With no Wierwille, Martindale, or Tree structure, a policy of openness, and keeping finances at the twig level, who knows what could have become of TWI?
I think it's worth finding out, one way or the other. (No pun intended.)
Peace,
Zix
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excathedra
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Hills Bro
"What better test to see if there actually was a baby in all that bathwater we threw out when we left TWI? With no Wierwille, Martindale, or Tree structure, a policy of openness, and keeping finances at the twig level, who knows what could have become of TWI?
I think it's worth finding out, one way or the other. (No pun intended.)
"
I'm sure Vince and JL both feel they kept the baby and threw out the bathwater too when they started their offshoot ministries long before CFF opened their doors. Both Vince and JL were apart of TWI1 that many here seem to think was the holiest of holy times in the TWI history.
Why not just merge your efforts and get along with each other istead of seperating yourself from others? Personally I think all these x-way leaders are still enslaved by their super egos..instilled in them by the teaching and example of their "father in the Word" VP and continue to live with this seperatist and devisive condescending approach which isolates them from the other groups.. I believe their teaching podiums still reflect a "We are right ..they are wrong" attitude.
I guess I agree with Zix ... my question is whether or not TWI 1 had any baby in it ...maybe it was all bathwater from the start?
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satori
If TWI were the RC Church, the splinters might be the reformation offshoots. Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists... Each with their own personalities.
In the end they will each pay their own lipservice to a God they do not know and render a disservice to the followers they entertain.
**
But does it really matter? Reading the thoughts of people who want to follow, maybe it's good to keep them occupied and off the streets. I mean, where would those followers go if these splinters weren't around?
They'd only wait for another shepherd to come along and promise them the Great Beyond. I mean, 70 virgins might sound like more fun than 5 crowns, but is the promise all that different? "For a hamburger today, I would gladly pay you for two, tomorrow."
**
Tell you what. Follow me instead. I PROMISE that after you die, you will come back to re-live this lifetime, but the Supreme Bippy, your new deity, will deposit a million bucks in a Swiss bank account for you. SB tells me you'll be much better looking next time around, and taller, and you'll be able to avoid all the mistakes you made this time. Yes YOU can re-live the PAST! And do it in style!! But wait, there's more!
You will shrewdly invest your cool mil in Microsoft (or your penny stock of choice) long before anyone else does and leverage it into a Solomon's fortune.
You will retain all your knowledge from this go-around so you will be able to prevent all kinds of accidents, save the Twin Towers, and all kinds of good stuff. Everyone will love you. Amaze neighbors and friends. Get that hotty that never gives you a 2nd look into the sack without even trying!
Just follow my teachings below and I promise this will come true - after you die.
Lesson One: Send me all your money, except what you need to live and maintain an income.
Lesson Two: If you're a hot babe (and legal), present yourself at my doorstep wearing nothing but a trenchcoat and take a number. (If not, see Lesson One.)
I sure could use a foot massage, and a back rub, and... well it's tough being an apostle. I have big needs ya know. But you'll be rewarded BIG TIME, just as soon as you kick the bucket.
Glory, and "PTL!" (Pass the loot.)
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Zixar
satori: Not very original, I'm afraid. The Church of the Sub-Genius offers most of what you do, as well as "Eternal Salvation or TRIPLE Your Money Back!!!"
Good try, though.
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AdiosMiCorazon
Napkinlady, are you talking to me? are you calling my opinion vicious gossip?
BTW, The men were the ones that brought up the WOW Burgers and it was all a joke. Are you offended that we joked about WOW Burgers? Have you no sense of humor? Or are you offended that I don't care to give CFF a try? You are wrong if CFF is a model of TWI then I do know a thing or two about it. At least their beliefs of the Bible being perfect, Jesus Christ not God anyone that doesn't believe this has no freedom of will, blah, blah, blah. I don't believe any of these things, therefore, I will not be signing up for their classes. I especially don't believe anything that VP said.
I do like RG because when he is confronted with questions, he is a true gentleman and gives us honest answers without getting all hot under the collar. Grace under pressure. I respect him for that.
If you think that is vicious gossip then you need to get out more often.
Zixar, I am not ignoring you BTW. I am glad to hear that you did not mean to slight Excathedra with your comment thank you for your explanation. However, I still think your comment to Ginger was over the top and I was surprised at your reaction. It is not like you to bash a lady.
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Steve!
6R, what's with the 'tude lately? What time of the month is it?
With tongue firmly in cheek,
Steve
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Hopefull
John Shroyer was WONDERFUL to me after I got kicked out of twi. Any experience I had with this group was great. Any experience I had with someone that went to CFF was great.
Why can't some of you just let that be someone's opinion? Can't the posters that went be allowed to have a good time there?
Your memories of twi hold such power over you, your bitterness really ....es all over someone's good time.
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Zixar
Adios/Steve: Some days my tolerance for other people's crap isn't as high as on others. Ginger jumped all over me for something that was ancillary to the topic at best, so I responded in kind. Then, true to form, off she went on some scatterbrained (flighty? ditzy? unfocused? irrelevant? Pick your favorite synonym.) tangent about the Tombstone movie. As for "noise", here's the definition of that: "A disturbance, especially a random and persistent disturbance, that obscures or reduces the clarity of a signal." I stand by my description.
Ginger's a big girl and can start and finish her own fights. Even if not, there's plenty of people around here who'll rush up to her with a cookie and a "Pay no attention to the nasty man, Gin-gin!" or somesuch. I doubt she's half as fragile as folks make her out to be.
Now, are we going to continue to heap noise on the signal, or squelch it and return to the topic?
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ex10
I've said this before here at the cafe, so if I sound redundant, many apologies.
After being involved with the way, for my latter teens and most of my 20's, I found myself flung into the real world at age 28 or so, not having very good conflict resolution skills.
Working in the "business world," I found myself in a job where resolving conflict was mostly what I was called upon to do. I realized pretty quickly that I was clueless. While I was involved with the way, relationships stayed pretty shallow because people never seemed to be able to work out their differences or resolve problems. Group think mentality prevailed.
Perhaps many of us excultees just need to sharpen our skills a little, and maybe just maybe the cafe is a place where we can "practice?"
Ok, ok, I know I belong to the "why can't we just all get along" group.
As far as RG and CFF goes, I have no experience except here at GS. But I must say, that RG has always impressed me as one who is both a gentleman and a scholar, and handles himself with grace and poise. That impresses me. And even though I don't agree with alot of his ideas and opinions, etc., I respect what he has to say because of his composure and consideration of others' views. He doesn't seem to mind the harder questions. I admire that trait in him. I feel the same way about many of the posters here.
So there, I said it. I think it's probably possible for us to all express ourselves without the jabs and barbs, but then again, what do I know?
I can still disagree with someone, yet respect them as a fellow human. I might not want to have some over for dinner, but then again, I'm not always welcome either. C'est la vie.
Thoughtfully,
ex10
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excathedra
you could not tolerate ginger's scatterbrained derailings with your due sense of exhaustion and dread and your buffer was full before she ever said anything about tombstone.
**
to others, i'm sure there are great people in CFF (like you here) and you had a great time at your family reunion. shroyer sounds like a very nice guy too. and as i said on one of the other threads (about father wierwille) i like jon from knowing him as research geek.
but i hold the opinion that twi was a cult before martindale took the mantle. and i don't think it's wrong to discuss the fact that CFF seems to be a good old days of the way ministry.
is it a secret? there should be nothing to hide if they believe they are right.
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firebee
But don't you think these words are a little too harsh:
"Ginger's a big girl and can start and finish her own fights. Even if not, there's plenty of people around here who'll rush up to her with a cookie and a "Pay no attention to the nasty man, Gin-gin!" or somesuch. I doubt she's half as fragile as folks make her out to be."
I've given no cookies out, but did put in a 'beg' at my poll thread. hehehe
Ginger is a big girl, and so is Ex for that matter. I just want to remind you that they are ladies, and should be treated with the dignity that comes with that title.
Agree or dis-agree with them to your heart's content. I have on a few occaisions. You have that space and privelage, with anyone who visits here. All I ask is that you treat Ginger and Ex with the respect due a lady..................even if they fight like a man.
I feel that I know (perhaps just hope) you hear what I'm saying.
With all due respect to you
from the poster formerly known as 'firebarrier'
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Zixar
Ex10: The only thing I'd add is that ResearchGeek is even nicer in person. Catcup, too. Good people to know.
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Steve!
Zixy, you sound very angry. Perhaps you haven't been getting enough
sleep
lately?
Have you reread your posts? I haven't known you to sound so harsh ever, except one time when you misinterpreted one of my posts.
Gingie's style is very obviously "stream of consciousness". I can't always follow it either. Does that mean that she's not welcome here?
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Zixar
firebee: With respect, your sense of chivalry is notable, even admirable; however, especially in our "enlightened" society, one man's noble chivalry can be another woman's patronizing chauvinism. Women are at no physical disadvantage on the internet, so coddling them is more of an insult than a compliment. Well, in my opinion, anyway.
At any rate, I don't blame Excathedra one bit for not wanting anything to do with anything remotely "Wierwillian." That's entirely her right, especially in light of what she suffered directly from VPW, and she's welcome to it. I don't even think she and I were really arguing that point, up until Ginger flew off the handle because she thought I was.
The point is, I can see WHY excathedra feels as she does. I'd be biased too, in her shoes, and I certainly wouldn't ask her to go to a CFF meeting. People who've been bitten by a snake will tend to freak out at a garden hose later. It's only natural.
However, "guilt by association" has always been a facetious argument. It's the basis for all bigotry, from racism to sexism, and everything in between. Judging a group by the actions of a few is just plain stupid, especially in this case, where the malefactors aren't even part of the group being condemned. Even more stupid is an individual condemning a group based solely on hearsay!
As long gone said, if there is a bad foundation after all, CFF will not stand. If there is a good foundation, it will prosper. Each splinter will live or die on its own merits. So far, CFF looks good. In contrast, what little dealings I've had with John Lynn's CES group lead me to believe they've got a serious screw loose. (Momentus, personal prophecy, no eternity in heaven, etc.) If it's not easy to be intreated, it's probably not the Word, after all. C'est la vie.
TWI gave us a perfect example of what happens when the congregation isn't vigilant.
Eyes fully open,
Zix
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Zixar
Steve: Oh, I'm certain I've been harsher in the past. Go look up some of the furballs Satori and I had, way back when. There are certain situations where being rude is the only way to drive home a point.
It's not up to me to decide who is or is not welcome here. Some people obviously get a kick out of the "stream of consciousness" types.
But I don't have to like it, and I don't. I refuse to be censored for the sake of popularity. Some are just going to have to read what I write and hate my guts for it. My guts aren't here for anyone to love, after all.
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LG
Since you asked...
I think that what TWI became is a natural result of the foundation on which it was built. I think that people whose "spiritual perception and awareness" was dull enough that they couldn't see the manifestations of TWI's problems until the late nineties have no business setting themselves up as teachers of classes on how to walk by the spirit. I think that people who want to "see if there was a baby in all that bathwater" would be wise to look elsewhere than to people who supported TWI for years, even during the Martindale years, apparently unable to tell that the bathwater was filthy or unwilling to pull the stopper for fear they'd go down the drain with the filth.
I also think that people can do what they want.
[This message was edited by Long Gone on August 07, 2002 at 13:51.]
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Zixar
long gone: That's a valid point. The only defense I could offer is that all of us have been in situations where we didn't act as precisely as hindsight would dictate. In other words, better late than never.
[shrug] We shall see.
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excathedra
dear zixar, i'm right here, you can talk to me
**
"...and not base your judgement on one really bad example."
the only example i am basing my judgment on is wierwille
**
this is what started it (i think)
i only shrugged when you first said it because i didn't know how to handle your saying why let him stress me out from the grave or something like that (i have heard that before and don't think it's fair)
to tell you the truth, i was thankful for ginger's post
and then you were so mean to her
again you said something about him being dead and displacing blame for abuse or something
i quoted these again after you said them because you said you didn't mean and i asked you what you meant. what did you mean ?
**
okay, you were referring to the splinter guy and dot, but still even that, CFF JUST ORDAINED HIM, are you saying they don't stand behind this guy who says you couldn't wipe your behind without PFAL. come on, when you ordain someone into your ministry, i would think you back them up or agree with them
**
i want to defend ginger, not only because she defended my abuse stuff, but also because she questions things and isn't afraid to question and she makes sense to me about life and individuality and being your SELF
**
i would not want to join another offshoot, but not just because wierwille destroyed my "SELF" for a long time, it's because if the group seems to hold him in high esteem, i think they have a cult problem
**
ps. did you just call me "stupid" before because of guilt by association
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TheEvan
Long Gone & Zixar, may I add to your excellent posts:
I can't imagine listening to a "teacher of the Word" (sic) who hasn't done a thorough education in mainstream Christianity. The only problem: the level of work, variety, "chaos" (in that there are a wide range of well-considered ideas out there) scholarship, and challenging calls to actually demonstrate Christ & His love is MUCH harder work than just taking your current body of knowledge and marketing (ok "making it available" is less inflammatory) it to a ready audience who likewise doesn't want to deal with friendly mess that is the Body of Christ.
That's my take anyway
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