Just got home and What A GREAT healing and gentle time with Fantastic people. Sorry to burst all of your envy bubbles but it was agreat time . It was also great to meet Zixar and J.R. to . Hope he's a great guy and guess what folks? The food was fine but made no Difference at all other than breaking bread with some fun God loving people. Remember NOBODY but GOD knows a mans Heart. SORRY to burst that bubble too.Getting back to living life now
Yeah, I can't get into this father in the word crap anymore either. VP pulled a lot of different work together a put it in a nice package that seemed to make a lot of sense. Without it, God only knows where or what I'd be today.
VP was an editor and nothing more. And then he used that and perverted it. It is written I think in Ezekial to the effect of; you were perfect in all your ways but when you did evil, all your good was forgoten. That's VP.
Much of PFAL was good and some of it is pure junk. CFF needs to filter it out and give those who want it the good stuff. I believe they are trying to do that. I haven't heard their new classes so I don't know.
Your name sounds familiar, have we known each other someplace, or were you possibly on staff at HQ? I used to go there a lot, even long before it was mandatory.
(I have usually lived close to HQ; Ft. Wayne, Columbus, Dee-troit. I was born and raised 45 miles from New Knoxville.)
Fear not Ginger Tea, I am not mad at Steve. He seemed to me to be ranting and I just wanted him to get more of a focus. (not the Ford)
(Sorry, never could resist a bad joke.)
Believe me Steve, I have been thru the pain and bitterness too. I still get angry when I read what the leaders of TWI did to some of our wonderful ladies like Excathedra and Valerie52 and many others.
They used and abused and lorded the Word of God over all of us. As I understand it, these abusers were a relatively small inner circle within the inner circle. I know many staff did not know of it and I beleive many clergy didn't either. Will give some leadership the benefit of the doubt until 2 or 3 witnesses come forth and say otherwise.
I will try to answer some of your Questions in another post soon, meanwhile, I am enclosing some CFF Statements off their website for your info:
CFF Our purpose;
The Christian Family Fellowship Ministry is a studying, teaching, and fellowship ministry. Our purpose is to study and search the scriptures to understand their accuracy regarding Jesus Christ, who is "the way, the truth, and the life." We want to learn to apply the principles and precepts of God's Word so as to manifest the more than abundant life that Jesus Christ came to make available. Our hearts' desire is to then teach that which we have learned to individuals who are seeking. Our goal is to reach heads of families with God's Word so that they can teach their own families even unto the third generation as we are exhorted to do according to the scriptures.
II Peter 1: 20,21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The Bible is of no private interpretation, that is why we are exhorted in II Timothy 2:15 to "study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Christian Family Fellowship Ministry is dedicated to being our best in our remembrance and application of these scriptures as we study, teach, and fellowship with the followers of this ministry. As we learn and teach, no dogmas will be imposed on an individual. We make our fellowships available to those who are searching for an accurate knowledge of the truth, who desire to increase the power of God in their lives, and who wish to fellowship with like-minded believers in God's family and household.
Statement of CFF Beliefs;
We believe that the scriptures are the Word of God. That the Word of God is the will of God and is supreme, absolute, and final authority for believing and godliness.
We believe in one God, the creator of the heavens and earth; in Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, our lord and savior, whom God raised from the dead; and we believe in the workings of the Holy Spirit.
We believe that the virgin Mary conceived Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit; that God was in Christ; and that Jesus Christ is the "mediator between God and man" and is the man Christ Jesus'.
We believe that Adam was created in the image of God, spiritually; that he sinned and thereby brought upon himself immediate spiritual death, which is separation from God, and physical death later, which is the consequence of sin; and that all human beings are born with a sinful nature.
We believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, as a representative and substitute for us, and that all who believe that God raised him from the dead are justified and made righteous, born again by the Spirit of God, receiving eternal life on the grounds of His eternal redemption, and thereby are sons of God.
We believe in the resurrection of the crucified body of our Lord Jesus Christ, his ascension into heaven, and his seating at the right hand of God.
We believe in the hope of Christ's return and our gathering together.
We believe in the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust.
We believe in the receiving of the fullness of the holy spirit, the power from on high, plus the corresponding nine manifestations of the holy spirit, for all born-again believers.
We believe it is available to receive all that God promises us in His Word according to our believing faith. We believe we are free in Christ Jesus to receive all that he has accomplished for us by his substitution.
We believe the early church flourished rapidly because they operated the power of God with great believing, basically in a home and family atmosphere, decently and in order, not by compulsion, but by their freewill giving of their time, talent, and resources, and their dynamic concern and love for God as well as their thankfulness to Him. They had a reverence for and loyalty to God plus a caring respect for one another.
Then and Now;
In the first century Church, Christians believed they were saved by grace and received power to operate the nine manifestations of holy spirit. Besides having received internal power these early believers studied the Word of God and acted upon it as the will of God. Those same early Christian believers met in homes, and established a lifestyle of being together, studying, fellowshipping, teaching, and worshipping on a daily basis. Christian Family Fellowship Ministry is primarily a home fellowship ministry. Small group fellowships are made available during the week in various local communities They are usually coordinated by a member of the family in that home The fellowships include a short, positive teaching from the Bible, prayer, singing, and manifestations of the spirit of God. Those participating do so freely of their own volition. There is no obligation to become a member because we have no membership other than the five trustees. Finances for the operation of the ministry rest entirely upon the love, believing, and freewill giving of those who desire to support and be involved as a participant of the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry.
Our growth;
Christian Family Fellowship Ministry will continue to reach out to those who desire to want to know more about God's Word and seek to fellowship with a caring group of believers that study, teach, and fellowship in light of our statement of beliefs with a special focus on building up the individual and the Christian family. The home fellowship meetings during the week, (of 10-20). are small enough to give special attention to each believer to help them develop and grow at their individual rates and at the same time meet their spiritual needs by providing spiritual nourishment through the teaching and ministering of God's Word. We will also develop special classes that will aid in their learning of God's Word and practice of its principles and precepts. Also we will be doing special seminars and weekends dealing with various topics that will be helpful in their learning process and progress. We do not claim to know everything there is to know about God and His Word, but that which we do know we are dedicated to teach to others. That is the purpose and heart of the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry.
This is written to enlighten you GSers who may be wondering.
I got involved with CFF about a year or so after they started up. My friends who went to their little rental church and got me involved of course started earlier and gave me the earliest details. My datings may off a bit but the general details are pretty accurate as I know them.
John Shroyer was born and raised not far from HQ. He was what we of small town rural midwest America would call "of good stock." (That means they were real good folks to you city types.) As I recall, his family was involved in TWI from way back when it was just a few farmers. So he had seen it pretty much from the beginning.
Around about 1996 or '97, he decided he couldn't take the new oppressive TWI leadership style and walked away from them. He moved to the Tipp City, Ohio area and figured any ministry type work was all in the past.
Fairly soon, local ex-wayers, recently burned by TWI, heard he was there and started coming to him for answers and healing. though he didn't really want to get involved again he could not turn them away. (There were many walking wounded.)
Pretty soon they were running a home fellowship and rapidly running out of room. They had to rent a nearby closed church for Sunday meetings and they were quickly filling that up.
The word was getting out. Friends from Newark, Ohio notified me. I started getting their tapes and started telling others. They were very healing for the brokenhearted. John was teaching in the manner of the early seventies, as it was before all the law and BS set in.
It was expanding so rapidly John got together with the Bruns brothers(?) and set up CFFM. He and the Bruns were the first trusties. They got some land and built their first fellowship center. By the time it was built the word was out nationwide and internationally.
Many hurting ex-wayers have gone to them and gotten healed. Me too, i consider them very helpful in my healing.
As of two or three years ago, these were some of their official policies;
CFF asks noone for any money, believing
God will give the increase as per George Mueller
The tapes they send out are free of charge. I've never paid a cent for mine nor sent them any money for them. I still get them every week.
(They teach giving, but it is according to as you purpose in your own heart and you give it to whom you want too. No forcing you to give to them.)
Every fellowship is entirely self sufficient, no lording from above. fellowship monies are for fellowship use as the fellowship desires.
Their belief system is basicaly PFAL. They are working it to improve it and get rid od the junk as I understand. PFAL is not so bad. I think it is as good as most other christian belief systems out there. It taught me how to work the word of God and make it my own. It Showed me God clearly enough so it was easy to love him.
I did have my laptop, but no modem, so I couldn't report from the field.
I'll skip the description of the grounds, save to say that it's quite a nice place, nestled in the Ohio cornfields.
I was very happy to meet InDebtSaysWho and his charming wife NapkinLady, Igotout, and ResearchGeek and Catcup. As fine a group of folks as you're likely to meet anywhere, genuinely friendly and likeable.
I think what struck me the most about the weekend was the complete sense of freedom. If you didn't want to go to one of the teachings (or if you slept through the morning session), no one said anything to you. No one tried to rope you into "volunteering" to "bless" people. Yet if you did need some help, or want some company, it was available in great supply.
You know, it reminded me of the good times I did have while I was in TWI. When it was about grace instead of condemnation, that sort of thing. I understand how people who got a really bad taste from TWI might be extremely wary of CFF, but remember, there was something about TWI that kept us there in the first place. (I can only speak about my times of course, right after VPW died. Those who suffered through the worst of the Craig years may not even know what I'm talking about.)
It was also nice not to be guilted into "abundantly sharing". Apparently CFF is not at all hurting for money, although they do charge for their five-part Living in God's Power class, $30 per part, and other tape/CD teaching series.
I did sense a bit of variation in beliefs from some of the other folks I spoke with, some talking straight 1960-vintage TWI, others looking to burn LCM at the stake. In other words, your local fellowship may vary from those in another state. That's good and bad, in that there is no central dictator like TWI, but it may also result in inconsistency among the public fellowships. Some might get ResearchGeek, others might get "Rev. Splinter". From what I saw this weekend though, the top leadership leans towards compassion and grace rather than whitewashed TWI legalism and VPW worship. Revs. Clapp and Shroyer didn't set off my "jackfoot detector" like so many of the TWI clergy used to.
Your experience may vary, but the honest thing to do is see for yourself, and not base your judgement on one really bad example, or on the word of someone who's trying to brand CFF a cult to further their own purposes.
All I can say is, I'd go again next year, if circumstances permitted. I'm not running right out to toe the CFF line, but I'm certainly not "mark and avoid"ing them either.
You asked for it so I dug it up. Actually,I didn't really know what it said either.
You are quite right, CFF is a sequel and makes no bones about it. They still believe most of what they were taught by TWI and believe the ministry went bad. They are determined not to make the same mistakes.
It got started because hurting former wayfers came to them, and it has grown from there. In that sense it is an unintended ministry. Most of its growth has been word of mouth from exwayfer to exwayfer.
Wayne Clapp came in about three years ago. John and he basically are the chief men of CFF. Some other former TWI leaders have come to CFF and been ordained of them too. CFF has also ordained some people on the field who have never been way corps.
I agree with you about the father in the word stuff. I always did find that as something a bit too egotistical. VP showed me The Way, but he fathered me in nothing. After coming to WayDale and GS and hearing first hand many accounts of VPs evil abuses and twistings of God's Word to allow him to do so, Well, it just grits my teeth!
You forgot to mention that people could feel free to get up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the teaching.
Your analysis is excellent and agrees exactly with what I saw.
quote:Originally posted by Zixar:
I did sense a bit of variation in beliefs from some of the other folks I spoke with, some talking straight 1960-vintage TWI, others looking to burn LCM at the stake. In other words, your local fellowship may vary from those in another state. That's good and bad, in that there is no central dictator like TWI, but it may also result in inconsistency among the public fellowships. Some might get ResearchGeek, others might get "Rev. Splinter". From what I saw this weekend though, the top leadership leans towards compassion and grace rather than whitewashed TWI legalism and VPW worship. Revs. Clapp and Shroyer didn't set off my "jackfoot detector" like so many of the TWI clergy used to.
When I was going to a fellowship in my area it was as you have so sharply reasoned out. They were primarily a CFF fellowship but they also subscribed to John Hendricks C.R.& F. ministry and some took some of his classes. At the last fellowships I attended they were getting together some bucks to bring in another guy to teach a certain class.
Their thinking was to be cautious in their trust and to compare notes, so to speak, from different sources. They do not want to be burned again. This seemed to be the common attitude throughout southeast Michigan and most other CFFers I've met.
Every fellowship is completely self governed. Any twig money is used in the twig. If you wish to send money to CFF, you do that on your own.
Nobody forces anybody financially. As I said in an earlier post, CFF decided to try out the George Mueller method of believing for abundance and so far it seems to be working fine.
Your experience may vary, but the honest thing to do is see for yourself, and not base your judgement on one really bad example, or on the word of someone who's trying to brand CFF a cult to further their own purposes.
"...and not base your judgement on one really bad example."
the only example i am basing my judgment on is wierwille
Who is dead, after all. What point is there in letting him stress you any more from beyond the grave?
The example I referred to was Rev. Splinter telling Dot Matrix that she "couldn't wipe her *** if it wasn't for PFAL."
[shrug] Let every man be fully persuaded. Nobody held a gun to my head when I went. Nobody knew who I was, so it's not like they put on a show just for me. At least I now have firsthand experience of CFF and not just a bunch of hot air from those whose only knowledge of the group is from the internet.
Take the torches and pitchforks down to the next house--I'm not joining any "cult" witch hunts today.
My only contact with a sphincter..........er I mean splinter group was CES many years ago.
I still get their newsletter, but any active involvement on my part is nil.
I have never attended a CFF function so hence there is no qualification for me to agree or disagree as to their doctrines.
I can see where Ex is coming from, based in part to what J. N. wrote:
------------------------------------------------
"Now some might say that this entire study is superfluous in light of the fact that we are all familiar with and have all partaken of a wonderful example of a foundational class: the Power for Abundant Living class taught by our Father in the Word, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille. But I, as my manner is, like to go back to the primary evidence and re-inspect it and now I can better understand and appreciate that great example.
Perhaps we allowed Doctor's original class to be too easily dismissed in favor of the promise of something new but untested. Its replacement despite the yes-men's accolades did not turn out to be the quality of the former. And that, perhaps was, in part, a reason why we lost access to it and now have to build one anew. I pray that when we are done rebuilding our foundation, we'll have something to shout about as the builders of the second temple's foundation did in Ezra! (9)"
-------------------------------------------------
I would be very leary of any group that held VPW and his teachings up on such a lofty pedastal.
Yes Ginger there are a lot of evil people who are now dead and I say thank God for that! Just because they are dead does not mean their evil deeds died with them. Hitler is very dead and maybe his victims should just get over it.
Oh you see but VP is not dead. No sir he is very much alive through his teachings. Yes our father in the word, Dr. VPW, step right up and worship him. What's the harm he is dead? So he sinned a little, who cares? He was righteous and therefore God forgave all his sins. Shouldn't we?
I will never ever ever forgive that man for what he did to Excathedra and others. He is not my father and neither was he "the man of God." so get over it!
[This message was edited by AdiosMiCorazon on August 06, 2002 at 10:01.]
Just because someone is dead doesn't mean that they are "off limits" to scrutiny. True, VPW can't defend his position personally
But were he alive today he still could'nt defend his position.
Granted, PFAL did me some good, but VP was a thief, of ideas and of hearts. As a male I was'nt preyed upon by the lusts of the leadership, yet preyed upon I me............for my heart and my mind.
The only "father in the Word" I have is God, the only saviour I have is Jesus.
My father in the word nor my saviour would ever do to anyone what VPW and et al did to Ex, or the hundreds? of others they abuse (present tense intended)
Someone asked of me on another post: "Firebee, how can flowery words of flattery and statements like, ?if all else in this senseless world falls apart, I will be there, for you.............a friend and a brother? be sincere when they?re addressed to people you don?t even know?"
I did not respond then, but now I do............
we all need assurances, and if in this cyber-world I can give just a little comfort, I will.
Flowery words of flattery they may be, but they are words from my heart........
Though I don't know who many of your are, Ex included, I do know that no one deserves the treatments that VPW and the like dished out
Ex........I'm holding your hand in my heart, even if they are "Flowery words of flattery"
Go hand in hand. You are right no one deserved what VP did to those women. I am glad that as a man, you can understand that this is not an easy thing to deal with. Everyone is so ready to jump on LCM, but if you mention VP's sins, it gets some folks jumping on you!
Where do you think LCM learned his craft? ummmm lets see....was it in the wurd?...nope that is not it.....was it revelation?....nope that is not it either.....Ah yes I got it, from VP? Yes that is it! You win the grand prize.
As a man there is no way I can comprehend what 'men of lust' do to a woman, physically or emotionally. The initial trauma has to be devestating, and the lingering affects of that trauma nearly unbearable.
If those "flowery words of flattery" are all you have to cling to, cling tightly.........because your REAL Father in the word will rescue you
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INDEBTSAYSWHO
Just got home and What A GREAT healing and gentle time with Fantastic people. Sorry to burst all of your envy bubbles but it was agreat time . It was also great to meet Zixar and J.R. to . Hope he's a great guy and guess what folks? The food was fine but made no Difference at all other than breaking bread with some fun God loving people. Remember NOBODY but GOD knows a mans Heart. SORRY to burst that bubble too.Getting back to living life now
Love ya
Fightin crimes of daway
1st amendment works both ways in Stow Oh
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dabobbada
Long gone,
Yeah, I can't get into this father in the word crap anymore either. VP pulled a lot of different work together a put it in a nice package that seemed to make a lot of sense. Without it, God only knows where or what I'd be today.
VP was an editor and nothing more. And then he used that and perverted it. It is written I think in Ezekial to the effect of; you were perfect in all your ways but when you did evil, all your good was forgoten. That's VP.
Much of PFAL was good and some of it is pure junk. CFF needs to filter it out and give those who want it the good stuff. I believe they are trying to do that. I haven't heard their new classes so I don't know.
Way II much fun for one man.
love,
Bob Hansen
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dabobbada
Indebtsayswho,
Glad to hear you had a great time.
Way II much fun for one man.
love,
Bob Hansen
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dabobbada
Steve,
Your name sounds familiar, have we known each other someplace, or were you possibly on staff at HQ? I used to go there a lot, even long before it was mandatory.
(I have usually lived close to HQ; Ft. Wayne, Columbus, Dee-troit. I was born and raised 45 miles from New Knoxville.)
Fear not Ginger Tea, I am not mad at Steve. He seemed to me to be ranting and I just wanted him to get more of a focus. (not the Ford)
(Sorry, never could resist a bad joke.)
Believe me Steve, I have been thru the pain and bitterness too. I still get angry when I read what the leaders of TWI did to some of our wonderful ladies like Excathedra and Valerie52 and many others.
They used and abused and lorded the Word of God over all of us. As I understand it, these abusers were a relatively small inner circle within the inner circle. I know many staff did not know of it and I beleive many clergy didn't either. Will give some leadership the benefit of the doubt until 2 or 3 witnesses come forth and say otherwise.
I will try to answer some of your Questions in another post soon, meanwhile, I am enclosing some CFF Statements off their website for your info:
CFF Our purpose;
The Christian Family Fellowship Ministry is a studying, teaching, and fellowship ministry. Our purpose is to study and search the scriptures to understand their accuracy regarding Jesus Christ, who is "the way, the truth, and the life." We want to learn to apply the principles and precepts of God's Word so as to manifest the more than abundant life that Jesus Christ came to make available. Our hearts' desire is to then teach that which we have learned to individuals who are seeking. Our goal is to reach heads of families with God's Word so that they can teach their own families even unto the third generation as we are exhorted to do according to the scriptures.
II Peter 1: 20,21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The Bible is of no private interpretation, that is why we are exhorted in II Timothy 2:15 to "study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Christian Family Fellowship Ministry is dedicated to being our best in our remembrance and application of these scriptures as we study, teach, and fellowship with the followers of this ministry. As we learn and teach, no dogmas will be imposed on an individual. We make our fellowships available to those who are searching for an accurate knowledge of the truth, who desire to increase the power of God in their lives, and who wish to fellowship with like-minded believers in God's family and household.
Statement of CFF Beliefs;
We believe that the scriptures are the Word of God. That the Word of God is the will of God and is supreme, absolute, and final authority for believing and godliness.
We believe in one God, the creator of the heavens and earth; in Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, our lord and savior, whom God raised from the dead; and we believe in the workings of the Holy Spirit.
We believe that the virgin Mary conceived Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit; that God was in Christ; and that Jesus Christ is the "mediator between God and man" and is the man Christ Jesus'.
We believe that Adam was created in the image of God, spiritually; that he sinned and thereby brought upon himself immediate spiritual death, which is separation from God, and physical death later, which is the consequence of sin; and that all human beings are born with a sinful nature.
We believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, as a representative and substitute for us, and that all who believe that God raised him from the dead are justified and made righteous, born again by the Spirit of God, receiving eternal life on the grounds of His eternal redemption, and thereby are sons of God.
We believe in the resurrection of the crucified body of our Lord Jesus Christ, his ascension into heaven, and his seating at the right hand of God.
We believe in the hope of Christ's return and our gathering together.
We believe in the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust.
We believe in the receiving of the fullness of the holy spirit, the power from on high, plus the corresponding nine manifestations of the holy spirit, for all born-again believers.
We believe it is available to receive all that God promises us in His Word according to our believing faith. We believe we are free in Christ Jesus to receive all that he has accomplished for us by his substitution.
We believe the early church flourished rapidly because they operated the power of God with great believing, basically in a home and family atmosphere, decently and in order, not by compulsion, but by their freewill giving of their time, talent, and resources, and their dynamic concern and love for God as well as their thankfulness to Him. They had a reverence for and loyalty to God plus a caring respect for one another.
Then and Now;
In the first century Church, Christians believed they were saved by grace and received power to operate the nine manifestations of holy spirit. Besides having received internal power these early believers studied the Word of God and acted upon it as the will of God. Those same early Christian believers met in homes, and established a lifestyle of being together, studying, fellowshipping, teaching, and worshipping on a daily basis. Christian Family Fellowship Ministry is primarily a home fellowship ministry. Small group fellowships are made available during the week in various local communities They are usually coordinated by a member of the family in that home The fellowships include a short, positive teaching from the Bible, prayer, singing, and manifestations of the spirit of God. Those participating do so freely of their own volition. There is no obligation to become a member because we have no membership other than the five trustees. Finances for the operation of the ministry rest entirely upon the love, believing, and freewill giving of those who desire to support and be involved as a participant of the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry.
Our growth;
Christian Family Fellowship Ministry will continue to reach out to those who desire to want to know more about God's Word and seek to fellowship with a caring group of believers that study, teach, and fellowship in light of our statement of beliefs with a special focus on building up the individual and the Christian family. The home fellowship meetings during the week, (of 10-20). are small enough to give special attention to each believer to help them develop and grow at their individual rates and at the same time meet their spiritual needs by providing spiritual nourishment through the teaching and ministering of God's Word. We will also develop special classes that will aid in their learning of God's Word and practice of its principles and precepts. Also we will be doing special seminars and weekends dealing with various topics that will be helpful in their learning process and progress. We do not claim to know everything there is to know about God and His Word, but that which we do know we are dedicated to teach to others. That is the purpose and heart of the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry.
Way II much fun for one man.
love,
Bob Hansen
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dabobbada
Beautiful Ginger,
Glad to hear that about him.
It appears your own words are poetry also.
Way II much fun for one man.
love,
Bob Hansen
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dabobbada
This is written to enlighten you GSers who may be wondering.
I got involved with CFF about a year or so after they started up. My friends who went to their little rental church and got me involved of course started earlier and gave me the earliest details. My datings may off a bit but the general details are pretty accurate as I know them.
John Shroyer was born and raised not far from HQ. He was what we of small town rural midwest America would call "of good stock." (That means they were real good folks to you city types.) As I recall, his family was involved in TWI from way back when it was just a few farmers. So he had seen it pretty much from the beginning.
Around about 1996 or '97, he decided he couldn't take the new oppressive TWI leadership style and walked away from them. He moved to the Tipp City, Ohio area and figured any ministry type work was all in the past.
Fairly soon, local ex-wayers, recently burned by TWI, heard he was there and started coming to him for answers and healing. though he didn't really want to get involved again he could not turn them away. (There were many walking wounded.)
Pretty soon they were running a home fellowship and rapidly running out of room. They had to rent a nearby closed church for Sunday meetings and they were quickly filling that up.
The word was getting out. Friends from Newark, Ohio notified me. I started getting their tapes and started telling others. They were very healing for the brokenhearted. John was teaching in the manner of the early seventies, as it was before all the law and BS set in.
It was expanding so rapidly John got together with the Bruns brothers(?) and set up CFFM. He and the Bruns were the first trusties. They got some land and built their first fellowship center. By the time it was built the word was out nationwide and internationally.
Many hurting ex-wayers have gone to them and gotten healed. Me too, i consider them very helpful in my healing.
As of two or three years ago, these were some of their official policies;
CFF asks noone for any money, believing
God will give the increase as per George Mueller
The tapes they send out are free of charge. I've never paid a cent for mine nor sent them any money for them. I still get them every week.
(They teach giving, but it is according to as you purpose in your own heart and you give it to whom you want too. No forcing you to give to them.)
Every fellowship is entirely self sufficient, no lording from above. fellowship monies are for fellowship use as the fellowship desires.
Their belief system is basicaly PFAL. They are working it to improve it and get rid od the junk as I understand. PFAL is not so bad. I think it is as good as most other christian belief systems out there. It taught me how to work the word of God and make it my own. It Showed me God clearly enough so it was easy to love him.
Enough for now.
Way II much fun for one man.
love,
Bob Hansen
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oenophile
bob,
you said that cff says that that they are no different from any other group. however, the head honcho john lynn in an e-mail to me said that he
believed that there was no biblically authentic teaching outside of cff.
So, ummm what gives?
It seems to me that it was this right doctrine exclusivity that got us in a pickle in the first place with twi.
robin
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oenophile
bob,
sorry for the mistake. john lynn is with ces.
robin
(feeling like rosanne anna danna...never mind)
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dabobbada
Winelover,
It is good to see your handle again.
You said;
he believed that there was no biblically authentic teaching outside of cff. (CES)
So, ummm what gives?
It seems to me that it was this right doctrine exclusivity that got us in a pickle in the first place with twi.
robin
I agree wholeheartedly Robin. When you think you know it all, the devil owns you're behind. You are going down.
I always liked John Lynn, but there he needs to be alert to make sure his ego doesn't take over.
By the way, that was a good catch on your mistake.
Way II much fun for one man.
love,
Bob Hansen
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dabobbada
Ginger Tea,
So you think you know me. Well, you have my attention.
Yes it would be fun to find out. Who can resist a woman who's icon is Marilyn ...ummm... and is something of a poet too.
My email is in my profile and here: dabobbada@cs.com
Way II much fun for one man.
love,
Bob Hansen
[This message was edited by dabobbada on August 05, 2002 at 14:58.]
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excathedra
right, our incestuous father
what does CFF stand for ?
"Can't Forget Father" ?
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AdiosMiCorazon
"Celebrating Father's Folly"
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Thanks your reply's... but sounds like a rerun... nopper... more like a remake, sequel...
Well... God Bless our Father In The Word... He was the best ... BullSh!!ter!!!
PEACE...
Steven
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on August 05, 2002 at 18:16.]
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Zixar
I did have my laptop, but no modem, so I couldn't report from the field.
I'll skip the description of the grounds, save to say that it's quite a nice place, nestled in the Ohio cornfields.
I was very happy to meet InDebtSaysWho and his charming wife NapkinLady, Igotout, and ResearchGeek and Catcup. As fine a group of folks as you're likely to meet anywhere, genuinely friendly and likeable.
I think what struck me the most about the weekend was the complete sense of freedom. If you didn't want to go to one of the teachings (or if you slept through the morning session), no one said anything to you. No one tried to rope you into "volunteering" to "bless" people. Yet if you did need some help, or want some company, it was available in great supply.
You know, it reminded me of the good times I did have while I was in TWI. When it was about grace instead of condemnation, that sort of thing. I understand how people who got a really bad taste from TWI might be extremely wary of CFF, but remember, there was something about TWI that kept us there in the first place. (I can only speak about my times of course, right after VPW died. Those who suffered through the worst of the Craig years may not even know what I'm talking about.)
It was also nice not to be guilted into "abundantly sharing". Apparently CFF is not at all hurting for money, although they do charge for their five-part Living in God's Power class, $30 per part, and other tape/CD teaching series.
I did sense a bit of variation in beliefs from some of the other folks I spoke with, some talking straight 1960-vintage TWI, others looking to burn LCM at the stake. In other words, your local fellowship may vary from those in another state. That's good and bad, in that there is no central dictator like TWI, but it may also result in inconsistency among the public fellowships. Some might get ResearchGeek, others might get "Rev. Splinter". From what I saw this weekend though, the top leadership leans towards compassion and grace rather than whitewashed TWI legalism and VPW worship. Revs. Clapp and Shroyer didn't set off my "jackfoot detector" like so many of the TWI clergy used to.
Your experience may vary, but the honest thing to do is see for yourself, and not base your judgement on one really bad example, or on the word of someone who's trying to brand CFF a cult to further their own purposes.
All I can say is, I'd go again next year, if circumstances permitted. I'm not running right out to toe the CFF line, but I'm certainly not "mark and avoid"ing them either.
God bless!
Zix
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dabobbada
You asked for it so I dug it up. Actually,I didn't really know what it said either.
You are quite right, CFF is a sequel and makes no bones about it. They still believe most of what they were taught by TWI and believe the ministry went bad. They are determined not to make the same mistakes.
It got started because hurting former wayfers came to them, and it has grown from there. In that sense it is an unintended ministry. Most of its growth has been word of mouth from exwayfer to exwayfer.
Wayne Clapp came in about three years ago. John and he basically are the chief men of CFF. Some other former TWI leaders have come to CFF and been ordained of them too. CFF has also ordained some people on the field who have never been way corps.
I agree with you about the father in the word stuff. I always did find that as something a bit too egotistical. VP showed me The Way, but he fathered me in nothing. After coming to WayDale and GS and hearing first hand many accounts of VPs evil abuses and twistings of God's Word to allow him to do so, Well, it just grits my teeth!
Way II much fun for one man.
love,
Bob Hansen
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dabobbada
You forgot to mention that people could feel free to get up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the teaching.
Your analysis is excellent and agrees exactly with what I saw.
When I was going to a fellowship in my area it was as you have so sharply reasoned out. They were primarily a CFF fellowship but they also subscribed to John Hendricks C.R.& F. ministry and some took some of his classes. At the last fellowships I attended they were getting together some bucks to bring in another guy to teach a certain class.
Their thinking was to be cautious in their trust and to compare notes, so to speak, from different sources. They do not want to be burned again. This seemed to be the common attitude throughout southeast Michigan and most other CFFers I've met.
Every fellowship is completely self governed. Any twig money is used in the twig. If you wish to send money to CFF, you do that on your own.
Nobody forces anybody financially. As I said in an earlier post, CFF decided to try out the George Mueller method of believing for abundance and so far it seems to be working fine.
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excathedra
"...and not base your judgement on one really bad example."
the only example i am basing my judgment on is wierwille
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Zixar
Who is dead, after all. What point is there in letting him stress you any more from beyond the grave?
The example I referred to was Rev. Splinter telling Dot Matrix that she "couldn't wipe her *** if it wasn't for PFAL."
[shrug] Let every man be fully persuaded. Nobody held a gun to my head when I went. Nobody knew who I was, so it's not like they put on a show just for me. At least I now have firsthand experience of CFF and not just a bunch of hot air from those whose only knowledge of the group is from the internet.
Take the torches and pitchforks down to the next house--I'm not joining any "cult" witch hunts today.
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excathedra
[shrug]
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firebee
My only contact with a sphincter..........er I mean splinter group was CES many years ago.
I still get their newsletter, but any active involvement on my part is nil.
I have never attended a CFF function so hence there is no qualification for me to agree or disagree as to their doctrines.
I can see where Ex is coming from, based in part to what J. N. wrote:
------------------------------------------------
"Now some might say that this entire study is superfluous in light of the fact that we are all familiar with and have all partaken of a wonderful example of a foundational class: the Power for Abundant Living class taught by our Father in the Word, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille. But I, as my manner is, like to go back to the primary evidence and re-inspect it and now I can better understand and appreciate that great example.
Perhaps we allowed Doctor's original class to be too easily dismissed in favor of the promise of something new but untested. Its replacement despite the yes-men's accolades did not turn out to be the quality of the former. And that, perhaps was, in part, a reason why we lost access to it and now have to build one anew. I pray that when we are done rebuilding our foundation, we'll have something to shout about as the builders of the second temple's foundation did in Ezra! (9)"
-------------------------------------------------
I would be very leary of any group that held VPW and his teachings up on such a lofty pedastal.
from the poster formerly known as 'firebarrier'
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AdiosMiCorazon
Yes Ginger there are a lot of evil people who are now dead and I say thank God for that! Just because they are dead does not mean their evil deeds died with them. Hitler is very dead and maybe his victims should just get over it.
Oh you see but VP is not dead. No sir he is very much alive through his teachings. Yes our father in the word, Dr. VPW, step right up and worship him. What's the harm he is dead? So he sinned a little, who cares? He was righteous and therefore God forgave all his sins. Shouldn't we?
I will never ever ever forgive that man for what he did to Excathedra and others. He is not my father and neither was he "the man of God." so get over it!
[This message was edited by AdiosMiCorazon on August 06, 2002 at 10:01.]
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firebee
Just because someone is dead doesn't mean that they are "off limits" to scrutiny. True, VPW can't defend his position personally
But were he alive today he still could'nt defend his position.
Granted, PFAL did me some good, but VP was a thief, of ideas and of hearts. As a male I was'nt preyed upon by the lusts of the leadership, yet preyed upon I me............for my heart and my mind.
The only "father in the Word" I have is God, the only saviour I have is Jesus.
My father in the word nor my saviour would ever do to anyone what VPW and et al did to Ex, or the hundreds? of others they abuse (present tense intended)
Someone asked of me on another post: "Firebee, how can flowery words of flattery and statements like, ?if all else in this senseless world falls apart, I will be there, for you.............a friend and a brother? be sincere when they?re addressed to people you don?t even know?"
I did not respond then, but now I do............
we all need assurances, and if in this cyber-world I can give just a little comfort, I will.
Flowery words of flattery they may be, but they are words from my heart........
Though I don't know who many of your are, Ex included, I do know that no one deserves the treatments that VPW and the like dished out
Ex........I'm holding your hand in my heart, even if they are "Flowery words of flattery"
from the poster formerly known as 'firebarrier'
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AdiosMiCorazon
Go hand in hand. You are right no one deserved what VP did to those women. I am glad that as a man, you can understand that this is not an easy thing to deal with. Everyone is so ready to jump on LCM, but if you mention VP's sins, it gets some folks jumping on you!
Where do you think LCM learned his craft? ummmm lets see....was it in the wurd?...nope that is not it.....was it revelation?....nope that is not it either.....Ah yes I got it, from VP? Yes that is it! You win the grand prize.
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firebee
Slick Vic.............the model for slick willy
As a man there is no way I can comprehend what 'men of lust' do to a woman, physically or emotionally. The initial trauma has to be devestating, and the lingering affects of that trauma nearly unbearable.
If those "flowery words of flattery" are all you have to cling to, cling tightly.........because your REAL Father in the word will rescue you
and His name is GOD
from the poster formerly known as 'firebarrier'
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