Everytime a topic such as this comes up, I usually read and stay silent because I don't know how to say what I think or feel.
Exousia is correct about the times that class was prepaped and run. I took it as a married adult. When it came to the dirty synonyms I swear I had heard of only 1 or 2 of them! I had no knowledge what-so-ever...and I was almost 40! I was pittifully ignorant... so for me it was enlightening but still much of it went over my head.
I was raised under a rock in a closet and in order to keep me from the boys (I think) my very own mother scared the hell out of me by telling me that I would get pregnant if a boy kissed me while I had my period and I was not allowed to date until I was 16! (I didn't know better until a few years later)
I never saw any of the perversions. I didn't know of them at the time. I had heard a few allegations from time to time but they were under the breath comments and I had no chance to ask questions without looking stuipid, and I didn't want to look stupid. Just because I didn't see them, doesn't mean they weren't there. Local leadership protected us from much of the perversions and always worked hard as real examples to make sure they always took care of us in all ways...they were, at that time,very giving.
There were plenty of really bad things in my childhood and teen years...plenty of emotional, mental scars...bad ones...deep ones.
But when topics like this come up, I cannot imagine how women like excie and Dot can endure any of it. They were in a place where they were molested on every level...physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually - and not only molested...but violated and abused as well.
I can only imagine the torture of the memories that must come back time after time to women such as they.
Thanks for your insight exousia, it framed my thoughts a little better.
(note to excie and Dot and all the rest like them...believe me when I tell you that I wish I could carry some of the pain for you gals and I admire how you try to push some of the walls over a little at a time to deal with it and become free again.)
I wrote the previous post back when y'all were on page 6, and got around to posting just now.
Flame away, but I recall the class just being weird, not evil ... except for his skirting that inconvenient topic of adultery.
If I had been one of a victim of his sexual appetites, perhaps I, too, would ascribe his motive for offering CFS to his sexual lusts.
But I don't think it was that. I ascribe his motive for offering to CFS to revenue generation.
Seriously, I think the purpose of CFS, and TWI generally, was to make money. VPW may have been evil, but he wasn't stupid. VPW's sexual appetites, and whatever scriptural justifications he made related to them, had to be kept private or any normal person would have left. Then he'd lose the money and access to young women.
Promiscuous behaviors and the doctrines justifying them were lockbox for Corps and other Wayfer insiders. I certainly was never privy to them and I don't recall any such justification in CFS (and, being single, I was listening carefully.)
Flame away if you must. I really don't see the why y'all are flaming WhiteDove so. He just seems to be reporting the facts as he recalls them, rather than creating a justification for VPW's reprehensible behavior.
I thought the class was disgusting. I also felt, as GOEY does that it was a class for VP to get every woman in the mind frame to worship the men's penis, thus ATEMPTING to make us promiscious.
It only ....ed me off. I also felt that he was very demeaning to women and I just hated the class. It depressed me and made me cry every f***ing time. I think I had to suffer throught it maybe 3-4 times. :(-->
Then of course I cannot forget the wife who's name rymes with Boynihan, that told me that we are here only to give pleasure to our man even if it hurts. what a stupid b***tch.
Reading this thread breaks my heart for the great blindness I see.
If I were standing by you and any man were to reach out and touch you like you described, I think my reaction would have been to try the same move as shazdancer?s, as she described it on a previous page. PLUS, I wouldn?t have needed to wait until modern times to have such a reaction. I grew up with three younger sisters and was trained to have those kind of responses.
But trained by whom?
I think that the feelings of disgust, horror, and outrage sometimes displayed here on this thread (and elsewhere) were trained into the posters here by the same trainer that trained me to feel so similarly.
It?s hard to describe how outraged I feel whenever I hear any of these kinds of stories. But I have learned that the feelings I feel were NOT trained into me by the True God, but by our culture.
The Protestant Reformation was not in any way complete. In addition to the Protestant churches inheriting the trinity from the RC church, there are other things that went unchallenged by the openings of Bible versions that started to become produced some 500 years ago.
The goddess Mary was rejected by most Protestant churches as an exaggeration of the real and wonderful Biblical character we know gave birth to the Son of God. However, the god of NON-sex that the RC Mary represented was brought into most Protestant churches lock stock and barrel. Although many Bible readers saw that the real Biblical character of Mary did indeed have sex, as well as other children, the IDEA of NON-sex being the ideal virtue was kept intact as received from the RC.
So, we live in a culture where the dominant moral virtue is still dominated by the old RC goddess of NON-sex. It?s a very skitzo culture, because at the same time this ultimate virtue of trying to avoid the pleasure of sex as righteousness is maintained, sex is everywhere and in every form rampant at times.
The false virtue of NON-sex is helped along by the real need to protect children from predators, but at the same time the nurturing of such predators is fueled in our culture by how broken sex has become and how so many go without their needs being met in that area. I sometimes think of our culture, and how so many are sexually frustrated, like the TV ad for contributions that uses a small starving child, so weak from malnutrition that a fly walks along its cheek and into the eye un-swatted. Our culture here has plenty of food, but as a culture we are starving for sex.
I?m sure the smirks are in full bloom on those reading this who DO get their rocks off regularly, but I know that your time of frustration is coming, and until then your indifference to the plight of others makes you a part of the problem.
If I were to see a young lady fondled that way I?d see red I?d be so angry. But why? Would I feel that same way if a hand was placed on her shoulders? No. But Why? There are strains in this broken NON-sex aspiring culture that DO INDEED train it?s even more unfortunate adherents that a hand on the shoulder is just as bad as one on a breast. That strain is small now, but in the 50?s where I grew up it thrived for years.
Most of our FEELINGS as to where we draw the line are culturally dictated. They are not from God. Show me all the verses you want, but when it comes down to applying them to life, many judgement calls must be made, and those calls are not Biblically based, but are Mary worship based, the false RC Mary that is.
I share the feelings of outrage that are expressed here, because I was deeply trained by a broken culture to feel that way. Simply knowing this, the feelings stay. I can challenge them at times, but they return, due to how deeply they are ingrained.
God tolerated lots of sex plays David drifted into, but when he killed Uriah, THEN God got really mad. It was the matter with Uriah that cost David lots, not the matter with Bathsheba.
I saw that although many in the ministry crossed many lines I found intolerable (due to my false cultural training), I don?t think it got as far out of hand as David did. I?ve NEVER heard of an accusation of murder coming from all this mess.
I look within, at my outrage over what I MYSELF saw many leaders do with, or say about women, and I see my feelings at variance with the God I see in the Bible. My feelings of outrage are gross exaggerations of what they should be.
It just breaks my heart to see so few here willing to question their training. If they feel outrage, then it must be righteous is what I see. I see people here with the exact same set of morals regarding sex that I saw in the RC nuns who trained me.
[This message was edited by Mike on September 21, 2003 at 10:23.]
WD did not JUST stick to the facts and report them, as may have been his intent.
He said:
quote: My question is this I guess if everything was so wrong, if everything was so pointless, if everything was so evil. Then why the hell did they stay around so long? Why only when you get scr*w*d over does everything become bad that was just fine before? But you are right we can disagree and I don't have a problem with that. I just don't see the profit in being unkind just because you can.
That is not saying, "hey guys I just checked my notes and this is what was said...." Its flavor is accusatory and judgmental.
And this
quote: I've been working on your stuff so let me say it this way Melanie has done some bad songs but she has also done many very good ones. I don't trash her work because she had a bad day nor do I throw everything out because of a poor choice in her words in one or two songs. It's not about sympathy it is simply giving credit where it is due, and speaking up where it is not. But there are many people who just want to be angry and therefore see everything as bad and because of that they don't care if what they say is true or not. Now they can think what they want but when you influence others wrongly without any concern then I would say we should maybe consider if that is the path we want to take and be accountable to God for.
It presupposes that because people on the thread were not upholding the integrity of the class that we would be accountable to God. Or that OUR word might hurt the readers.
I do not agree.
I still contend there was NO integrity to the class except for some sound bites to hide a sexual pervert and let him masquerade as a "nice family man" and I believe by expressing our opinions, which lay contrary to his, we are not INFLUENCING OTHERS WRONGLY. Some people were just talking.
This comment
quote: But there are many people who just want to be angry and therefore see everything as bad and because of that they don't care if what they say is true or not. Now they can think what they want but when you influence others wrongly without any concern then I would say we should maybe consider if that is the path we want to take and be accountable to God for.
Sounded as though any talk contrary to the syllabus written words HE had were some how producing "lack of concern" for readers and because we spoke badly of VPW we would be accountable to God for it.
Well, all I am saying is I AM WILLING to accept all accountability for exposing a sexual pervert. I am PROUD to be accountable for that. I think it is time "the wicked Uncle Ernie" stops fiddling about in our hearts and lives even if it is post mortem.
I hope people DO understand how deep the foundation of LIES and perversion goes and what kind of slap in the face, to the world of integrity, it is for a man who is seducing young girls looking for God, who sexually may have drugged girls to use them and who lived an adulterous life, TO TEACH a CLASS on CHRISTIAN FAMILY and SEX is ludicrous. But until people can really see we were in a cult, lead by a lunatic they will be in some form of bondage to Dr. Demento.
That is MY position.
I do not have to feign allegiance anymore to a sexual criminal. I am not afraid to speak up. I know I will not be a grease spot but rather I will be FREE. LCM and VPW were horrible mean-spirited people that used us. If you had some GOOD corps that protected you then praise God for them. Or you might be responding to WD about how LCM or VPW seduced your daughter or your wife. Then you would feel how personal the EVIL was. We would see how passionate you become. Easy to be a spectator if you were never thrown in the game.
So, you can feel want you want, but if you people want to VALIDATE a sex pervert and his cover class, this will be my position. Like it or not, like me or not, I do not care. Silence is gone-- lock box open.
quote:As a minister, if I showed our youth a porn film... how long do you think I'd keep my (non-TWI) ordination credentials?
As long as due process took to boot my confused butt out, I'm sure -- (suspension within a week, then revocation within 1-6 months). If I demonstrated great remorse and could prove some temporary mental incapacity, maybe I could avoid defrocking after a year or two of counseling.
AMEN!!!!!
WOW MJ
quote:Mary was a virgin that bothers you doesnt it?
Ya know the largeness of that just hit me when you wrote it. He did not choose a protitute or someone who had been around the block or any of it..... Something to think about...
quote: If I were to see a young lady fondled that way I?d see red I?d be so angry. But why? Would I feel that same way if a hand was placed on her shoulders? No. But Why? There are strains in this broken NON-sex aspiring culture that DO INDEED train it?s even more unfortunate adherents that a hand on the shoulder is just as bad as one on a breast. That strain is small now, but in the 50?s where I grew up it thrived for years.
That is the same m-th-r phocking crap those perverts used on us.
In the corps, I sat in a sunday night service with a guy who reached over during the teaching and began to FEEL my breast. I threw his hand off of me.
Later, he went into there really is no difference between touching an elbow or a breast it is all in how we see it.... He learned that from VPW. (That is such a typical sexual predator thing to say to young kids to be able to fondle them.)
I told the M-th-r Phocker if he could not see the difference then next time grab my elbow!!!!
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 21, 2003 at 11:35.]
I hope I made it clear how duped I was. If I was...I wonder how many others were too (not that I'm the sharpest knife in the drawer).
While I didn't know beans about veepee's business, it all came home to roost when my daughter-in-law became a memeber of loy's stable. When my son balked, they were thrown out of the corpse. (Advanced Class - June 1998)That is when I learned about lcm...it took a while longer for the rest to present itself to me.
There were good corps around who "protected" us...but many of them knew first hand (some didn't). Now I wonder....I don't think they should have protected us to that degree. They should have been straight with us. They should have told us so we could keep our kids from that evil. Now - I feel guilty for that.
The more I understand...the more I think that twi was nothing more than an MLM driving women, goods and money to the top where it could be enjoyed and abused by those of the inner circle.
I am embarrassed that I didn't know and perfectly livid that I contributed to it all. It is sickening.
You know, you wish the corps told you some of the stuff? Well, I had a cute little girlfriend from the college division in San Diego. What a positive burst of sunshine!
Well, I had gone through he ll with all the sex stuff. Even though I said NO to VPW, certain male leaders called me "one of VP's girls"
I found it offensive but I also think some of them stayed away because they heard that.... I dunno... Maybe it made some MORE bold...
Anyway, this precious believer was starting to question some "foul odors" she caught in TWI.
She came to me and said, "Do you know that our leader has convinced people it is an honor to live with him and is making the believers pay all the rent and bills and he and his family live for free? That is using people!"
After she noticed a few more "bad" things. I told her. I told her the truth about the lies and deception. Well, she lost her mind and called the area leader and told him what I said and that I should be stopped!!!
I had the flu that day and my branch leader knocked on the door and said you need to come with me immediately, to see __ ___. Whose name rhymes with Hat Now.
When I went in to see him he yelled alright, "Why would you tell a DITZ believer like _________ about what goes on behind close doors? You have a lock box problem and you will NEVER be anything if you do not learn to shut up!!!!!"
So, this was the last I saw him. Final straw.
I went back to the little "ditz" and told her by the way, I was called into a meeting. All they told me was you cannot handle what is going on in the Way. What I told you was true.
So, your corps may have been afraid to tell you for the reasons I just outlined. They may have REALLY wanted to tell you.
It was all so sick! So, yeah let's all talk about the virtue in his "sex" class.... NOT
Valerie52
quote:I thought the class was disgusting. I also felt, as GOEY does that it was a class for VP to get every woman in the mind frame to worship the men's penis, thus ATEMPTING to make us promiscious.
quote: The false virtue of NON-sex is helped along by the real need to protect children from predators, but at the same time the nurturing of such predators is fueled in our culture by how broken sex has become and how so many go without their needs being met in that area.
Who says non-sex is a virtue? I believe, rather, that it has a lot to do with the setting.
But the real thing that grabs me is the line about "so many go without their needs being met in that area."
Mike, have you got your needs and wants parallel???
I need sex. It is Godly for me to go out and rape whom I choose, because even though there will be outrage at my act, that outrage is only culturally and not Godly based. Your statements plainly lead to that conclusion.
Is it Godly to hurt someone? If not, then put yourself in a victim's place (may be difficult) and picture yourself liking some of the acts here described done without your consent.
(BTW consent doesn't automatically make it right either IMO but that's another debate).
Probably the wrong choice of words...instead picture yourself not being hurt by someone touching you in the wrong place.
Tell us, what catastrophic thing happens to a man of God if he doesn't get his sexual needs met?
quote: But the real thing that grabs me is the line about "so many go without their needs being met in that area.
awwwwwwwww. Poor mogies not getting enough nookie!
That does not give them the inherent right to impress my DIL and others like her...violate her for their pleasure so they can get their rocks off and in the meantime deprive my son.
[This message was edited by krysilis on September 21, 2003 at 13:23.]
quote: Trefor: Read Leviticus 18....Biblically, there is no record of any homosexual doing anything good for God or his people.
I have read Lerviticus - do you eat shellfish? Do you wear mixed fibre clothes? These are also listed as "abominations". You have no idea of the context and neither have you of how outdated what is contained therein is.
David could have been homosexual, or at least bisexual, his relationship with Jonathan is certainly presented in an interesting way. Ruth and Naomi could also have had an intesresting relationship as could Jesus and his "beloved disciple".
Such simplistic arguments and assumptions are what let Wierwille get away with what he did. You can make the Bible prove anything you want to and clothe sex or anti sex with a religious garb.
I don't buy simplistic "the Bible says" arguments becuase how you read it is obviously very different to how I read it, your view of God is very different to mine.
Gosh mike, what you said is pretty sick thinking. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and think that maybe you communicated way wrong. I hope?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Thank you. I am sure there are a multitude of miscommunications in this field. The emotions are high, and that includes revenge or surrogate revenge motives. Many people have differing moral systems regarding various elements. What is casually no big deal to one person means all the world to another. Everyone has differing slants on these items and differing definitions of the terms.
My ?Mirror Reversal? thread is designed to show how one person holds onto definition #1 of reverse, unaware that their debating partner in this riddle holds a completely differing definition #2, and all the while neither of them is aware of an obscure definition #3. Without clarifying all these things it?s hopeless confusion that characterizes most conversations on mirror reversal as well as sex.
*****
Dot,
You?ll never know what I?m talking about until you get off the high horse that various elements have built into your conscience that are pure baloney. You think all your guts instincts are correct with biology and with God but I know that SOME of them are not. Until you question the things you think you are sure of now you will not progress spiritually. Your emotions rule your mind and it should be the other way around.
If you think that you're immune to being perverse and far from God?s truth and attitude, then you will not grow... in the right direction.
You must ask God to reveal to you where you are DEAD wrong on things, or you will stay dead wrong.
Your use of profanity only proves to me that you are in a prison constructed by the devil and his world culture. It is very persuasive, but in the wrong direction. It?s no better than a two year old?s temper tantrums. Grow UP!
Life is too short for bitterness.
As for the touching, I said I share your pre-programming to feel outrage, and I felt the same way when I first heard the saying that ?there?s no difference...? However I have learned to ask WHY do I fee that outrage. This is a step in development you have not yet enjoyed. You refuse to question your own sense of propriety. I invite you to a path to non-bitter coffee.
*****
Lifted Up,
You wrote: ?It is Godly for me to go out and rape whom I choose, because even though there will be outrage at my act, that outrage is only culturally and not Godly based. Your statements plainly lead to that conclusion.?
They only lead there when you don?t take the whole story into consideration. I do NOT mean to imply that with my words, nor with my actions, nor do I feel that way inside. It?s a false conclusion you arrived at due to miscommunication. Maybe I didn?t say it best, but I am sure you didn?t read it best.
I hurt for all true victims, and even the false ones. The false victims are those who elevate sex (or NON-sex) to the level of a god and then are terribly hurt when it collapses on them. I think a lot of people have a false perspective on sex, built by the RC goddess of NON-sex, their Mary, and it?s designed to make them victims when they need not be.
I see a lot of proper sexual morals as promoting efficiency in our culture, while I see the established sex morals (often proclaimed here) as bringing about great inefficiency. People are raised up with false expectations about some divine aspect of sex that?s not real, and then dashed to pieces when it they run to the opposite.
I?m not saying I want to see a relaxation of morals, just a reexamination of how intensely we?ve invested in them. I think what is considered sound sex morals are very religiously idiotic, but they are so ingrained and so intense, that people think they are at the door of divine perfection with them. Our culture is broken on this subject. Just as broken as the starving children from Biafra with flies crawling on their faces. The devil imprisoned them with food idiocy (like can?t eat cows), and us with sex prohibitions that go way beyond anything God ever had in mind. The sanctity of sex, the spirituality of sex, the intense negative emotions that go along with it all are way out of proportion. In most people?s minds sex is a sacred cow.
Well, then, maybe we'd both better read your post again. Perhaps it is understandable if my interpretation of what you posted did not match what you were thinking when you made the post. But then I wasn't trying to decipher what you meant. I was making an honest attempt to read your post from the point of view of a victim, and that's how I saw it. In no way do I think that you believe it is Godly to forcibly rape (redundant, I know, but I need the emphasis) someone to satisfy someone's "needs". But in my (good or poor, don't know) attempt to read it from a victim's point of view, that's what it said very plainly.
I honestly hurt for the victims. Even the ones who had false expectations that were dashed to the ground.
However, there?s another factor to consider when it comes to those in the Corps program. In the Thessalonians tapes Dr mentions this, and also in many of the early Corps recruiting pitches it came up a lot. That program was supposed to be like boot camp with tough tests thrown at people. In boot camp sometimes live ammo is used that?s very dangerous. Not quite as dangerous as real war, but sometimes close. Sometimes in boot camp recruits even die from the rigors, just not nearly as many as real war.
Corps recruits were warned that they would be given challenging situations, in order to prepare their emotions for what they would be hit with on the field. In a few situations things may have gone wrong, or someone may have slipped bast the initial barriers and wasn?t at all prepared for such rough testing. Dr was rough on his Corps at times because they were engaged in a war. EVERYONE volunteered that was in there, and they should have known it could get dicey. The expectations that the Corps was going to be all sweet fellowship were false.
I?ve heard of deaths in military boot camps and grieved for those victims. I yearn for the day God will make all this crap worth it. It?s coming!
If I were a victim of any of the sex crap, or if I had been close enough to witness it, I too may be overwhelmed by these emotions and posting in a heated rage against Dr and the entire program. In the months prior to me seeing Dr?s Last/Lost Teaching and several other things that had slipped by me, I DID REACH the stages of rage over these things. I was rescued as I came back to PFAL and started reading again. What Dr ministered to me in those books helped soothe that rage quite quickly because I hadn?t had it for too long, and had not magnified it by expressing it (RRR) to others.
My feelings now are of great sympathy for the victims, and I KNOW looking for a villain in Dr will only compound their pain over the years. The only hope for the victims is God and His pure Word. Their incessant venting will only strengthen the adversary?s grip on them.
so what are you saying mike? That it was ok for vpw to do what he did because he was testing them? What if he would have gone after the men? What if he approached you and grabbed your balls and said they were nicely shaped? How would you feel then?
Sorry if this sounds like I'm baiting you. I'm just getting some thoughts out for thinking purposes.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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krys
Everytime a topic such as this comes up, I usually read and stay silent because I don't know how to say what I think or feel.
Exousia is correct about the times that class was prepaped and run. I took it as a married adult. When it came to the dirty synonyms I swear I had heard of only 1 or 2 of them! I had no knowledge what-so-ever...and I was almost 40! I was pittifully ignorant... so for me it was enlightening but still much of it went over my head.
I was raised under a rock in a closet and in order to keep me from the boys (I think) my very own mother scared the hell out of me by telling me that I would get pregnant if a boy kissed me while I had my period and I was not allowed to date until I was 16! (I didn't know better until a few years later)
I never saw any of the perversions. I didn't know of them at the time. I had heard a few allegations from time to time but they were under the breath comments and I had no chance to ask questions without looking stuipid, and I didn't want to look stupid. Just because I didn't see them, doesn't mean they weren't there. Local leadership protected us from much of the perversions and always worked hard as real examples to make sure they always took care of us in all ways...they were, at that time,very giving.
There were plenty of really bad things in my childhood and teen years...plenty of emotional, mental scars...bad ones...deep ones.
But when topics like this come up, I cannot imagine how women like excie and Dot can endure any of it. They were in a place where they were molested on every level...physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually - and not only molested...but violated and abused as well.
I can only imagine the torture of the memories that must come back time after time to women such as they.
Thanks for your insight exousia, it framed my thoughts a little better.
(note to excie and Dot and all the rest like them...believe me when I tell you that I wish I could carry some of the pain for you gals and I admire how you try to push some of the walls over a little at a time to deal with it and become free again.)
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dougie73
P.S. EXCUSE THE TYPOOOOOOO'S
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The Skeptical Texan
I wrote the previous post back when y'all were on page 6, and got around to posting just now.
Flame away, but I recall the class just being weird, not evil ... except for his skirting that inconvenient topic of adultery.
If I had been one of a victim of his sexual appetites, perhaps I, too, would ascribe his motive for offering CFS to his sexual lusts.
But I don't think it was that. I ascribe his motive for offering to CFS to revenue generation.
Seriously, I think the purpose of CFS, and TWI generally, was to make money. VPW may have been evil, but he wasn't stupid. VPW's sexual appetites, and whatever scriptural justifications he made related to them, had to be kept private or any normal person would have left. Then he'd lose the money and access to young women.
Promiscuous behaviors and the doctrines justifying them were lockbox for Corps and other Wayfer insiders. I certainly was never privy to them and I don't recall any such justification in CFS (and, being single, I was listening carefully.)
Flame away if you must. I really don't see the why y'all are flaming WhiteDove so. He just seems to be reporting the facts as he recalls them, rather than creating a justification for VPW's reprehensible behavior.
SkepTex
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The Skeptical Texan
Okay, Dougie ...
Dog Day Afternoon? If true,
that WAS evil, not just weird!
SkepTex
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WhiteDove
DOt
A private Post is waiting for you.
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
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WhiteDove
Skep Tex Thanks for the kind words you are correct that was my purpose. And I agree on the money issue.
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
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valerie52
I thought the class was disgusting. I also felt, as GOEY does that it was a class for VP to get every woman in the mind frame to worship the men's penis, thus ATEMPTING to make us promiscious.
It only ....ed me off. I also felt that he was very demeaning to women and I just hated the class. It depressed me and made me cry every f***ing time. I think I had to suffer throught it maybe 3-4 times.
:(-->
Then of course I cannot forget the wife who's name rymes with Boynihan, that told me that we are here only to give pleasure to our man even if it hurts. what a stupid b***tch.
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Mike
Exy,
Reading this thread breaks my heart for the great blindness I see.
If I were standing by you and any man were to reach out and touch you like you described, I think my reaction would have been to try the same move as shazdancer?s, as she described it on a previous page. PLUS, I wouldn?t have needed to wait until modern times to have such a reaction. I grew up with three younger sisters and was trained to have those kind of responses.
But trained by whom?
I think that the feelings of disgust, horror, and outrage sometimes displayed here on this thread (and elsewhere) were trained into the posters here by the same trainer that trained me to feel so similarly.
It?s hard to describe how outraged I feel whenever I hear any of these kinds of stories. But I have learned that the feelings I feel were NOT trained into me by the True God, but by our culture.
The Protestant Reformation was not in any way complete. In addition to the Protestant churches inheriting the trinity from the RC church, there are other things that went unchallenged by the openings of Bible versions that started to become produced some 500 years ago.
The goddess Mary was rejected by most Protestant churches as an exaggeration of the real and wonderful Biblical character we know gave birth to the Son of God. However, the god of NON-sex that the RC Mary represented was brought into most Protestant churches lock stock and barrel. Although many Bible readers saw that the real Biblical character of Mary did indeed have sex, as well as other children, the IDEA of NON-sex being the ideal virtue was kept intact as received from the RC.
So, we live in a culture where the dominant moral virtue is still dominated by the old RC goddess of NON-sex. It?s a very skitzo culture, because at the same time this ultimate virtue of trying to avoid the pleasure of sex as righteousness is maintained, sex is everywhere and in every form rampant at times.
The false virtue of NON-sex is helped along by the real need to protect children from predators, but at the same time the nurturing of such predators is fueled in our culture by how broken sex has become and how so many go without their needs being met in that area. I sometimes think of our culture, and how so many are sexually frustrated, like the TV ad for contributions that uses a small starving child, so weak from malnutrition that a fly walks along its cheek and into the eye un-swatted. Our culture here has plenty of food, but as a culture we are starving for sex.
I?m sure the smirks are in full bloom on those reading this who DO get their rocks off regularly, but I know that your time of frustration is coming, and until then your indifference to the plight of others makes you a part of the problem.
If I were to see a young lady fondled that way I?d see red I?d be so angry. But why? Would I feel that same way if a hand was placed on her shoulders? No. But Why? There are strains in this broken NON-sex aspiring culture that DO INDEED train it?s even more unfortunate adherents that a hand on the shoulder is just as bad as one on a breast. That strain is small now, but in the 50?s where I grew up it thrived for years.
Most of our FEELINGS as to where we draw the line are culturally dictated. They are not from God. Show me all the verses you want, but when it comes down to applying them to life, many judgement calls must be made, and those calls are not Biblically based, but are Mary worship based, the false RC Mary that is.
I share the feelings of outrage that are expressed here, because I was deeply trained by a broken culture to feel that way. Simply knowing this, the feelings stay. I can challenge them at times, but they return, due to how deeply they are ingrained.
God tolerated lots of sex plays David drifted into, but when he killed Uriah, THEN God got really mad. It was the matter with Uriah that cost David lots, not the matter with Bathsheba.
I saw that although many in the ministry crossed many lines I found intolerable (due to my false cultural training), I don?t think it got as far out of hand as David did. I?ve NEVER heard of an accusation of murder coming from all this mess.
I look within, at my outrage over what I MYSELF saw many leaders do with, or say about women, and I see my feelings at variance with the God I see in the Bible. My feelings of outrage are gross exaggerations of what they should be.
It just breaks my heart to see so few here willing to question their training. If they feel outrage, then it must be righteous is what I see. I see people here with the exact same set of morals regarding sex that I saw in the RC nuns who trained me.
[This message was edited by Mike on September 21, 2003 at 10:23.]
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mj412
"my feeling of outrage are gross exaggerations of what they should be"
believe that? This is a statement of a person unable to discern right from wrong and has conflicting moral agendas.
God tolerated alot of sex play?
Mary was a virgin that bothers you doesnt it?
your a sick demented person.
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Steve!
When I see posts from a certain poster, it is as in those Charlie Brown TV shows, where the teacher is talking:
"Bwa wa wah wa wha wa wa wha wa".
Useless unintelligible noise that only a select few understand, or want to.
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Dot Matrix
Tex
WD did not JUST stick to the facts and report them, as may have been his intent.
He said:
That is not saying, "hey guys I just checked my notes and this is what was said...." Its flavor is accusatory and judgmental.
And this
It presupposes that because people on the thread were not upholding the integrity of the class that we would be accountable to God. Or that OUR word might hurt the readers.
I do not agree.
I still contend there was NO integrity to the class except for some sound bites to hide a sexual pervert and let him masquerade as a "nice family man" and I believe by expressing our opinions, which lay contrary to his, we are not INFLUENCING OTHERS WRONGLY. Some people were just talking.
This comment
Sounded as though any talk contrary to the syllabus written words HE had were some how producing "lack of concern" for readers and because we spoke badly of VPW we would be accountable to God for it.
Well, all I am saying is I AM WILLING to accept all accountability for exposing a sexual pervert. I am PROUD to be accountable for that. I think it is time "the wicked Uncle Ernie" stops fiddling about in our hearts and lives even if it is post mortem.
I hope people DO understand how deep the foundation of LIES and perversion goes and what kind of slap in the face, to the world of integrity, it is for a man who is seducing young girls looking for God, who sexually may have drugged girls to use them and who lived an adulterous life, TO TEACH a CLASS on CHRISTIAN FAMILY and SEX is ludicrous. But until people can really see we were in a cult, lead by a lunatic they will be in some form of bondage to Dr. Demento.
That is MY position.
I do not have to feign allegiance anymore to a sexual criminal. I am not afraid to speak up. I know I will not be a grease spot but rather I will be FREE. LCM and VPW were horrible mean-spirited people that used us. If you had some GOOD corps that protected you then praise God for them. Or you might be responding to WD about how LCM or VPW seduced your daughter or your wife. Then you would feel how personal the EVIL was. We would see how passionate you become. Easy to be a spectator if you were never thrown in the game.
So, you can feel want you want, but if you people want to VALIDATE a sex pervert and his cover class, this will be my position. Like it or not, like me or not, I do not care. Silence is gone-- lock box open.
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
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Dot Matrix
Plots
AMEN!!!!!
WOW MJ
Ya know the largeness of that just hit me when you wrote it. He did not choose a protitute or someone who had been around the block or any of it..... Something to think about...
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
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Dot Matrix
Mike What the PHOCK are you talking about?
That is the same m-th-r phocking crap those perverts used on us.
In the corps, I sat in a sunday night service with a guy who reached over during the teaching and began to FEEL my breast. I threw his hand off of me.
Later, he went into there really is no difference between touching an elbow or a breast it is all in how we see it.... He learned that from VPW. (That is such a typical sexual predator thing to say to young kids to be able to fondle them.)
I told the M-th-r Phocker if he could not see the difference then next time grab my elbow!!!!
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 21, 2003 at 11:35.]
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krys
Right on Dot!
I hope I made it clear how duped I was. If I was...I wonder how many others were too (not that I'm the sharpest knife in the drawer).
While I didn't know beans about veepee's business, it all came home to roost when my daughter-in-law became a memeber of loy's stable. When my son balked, they were thrown out of the corpse. (Advanced Class - June 1998)That is when I learned about lcm...it took a while longer for the rest to present itself to me.
There were good corps around who "protected" us...but many of them knew first hand (some didn't). Now I wonder....I don't think they should have protected us to that degree. They should have been straight with us. They should have told us so we could keep our kids from that evil. Now - I feel guilty for that.
The more I understand...the more I think that twi was nothing more than an MLM driving women, goods and money to the top where it could be enjoyed and abused by those of the inner circle.
I am embarrassed that I didn't know and perfectly livid that I contributed to it all. It is sickening.
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Dot Matrix
krysilis
Love you! I hear you sister!
You know, you wish the corps told you some of the stuff? Well, I had a cute little girlfriend from the college division in San Diego. What a positive burst of sunshine!
Well, I had gone through he ll with all the sex stuff. Even though I said NO to VPW, certain male leaders called me "one of VP's girls"
I found it offensive but I also think some of them stayed away because they heard that.... I dunno... Maybe it made some MORE bold...
Anyway, this precious believer was starting to question some "foul odors" she caught in TWI.
She came to me and said, "Do you know that our leader has convinced people it is an honor to live with him and is making the believers pay all the rent and bills and he and his family live for free? That is using people!"
After she noticed a few more "bad" things. I told her. I told her the truth about the lies and deception. Well, she lost her mind and called the area leader and told him what I said and that I should be stopped!!!
I had the flu that day and my branch leader knocked on the door and said you need to come with me immediately, to see __ ___. Whose name rhymes with Hat Now.
When I went in to see him he yelled alright, "Why would you tell a DITZ believer like _________ about what goes on behind close doors? You have a lock box problem and you will NEVER be anything if you do not learn to shut up!!!!!"
So, this was the last I saw him. Final straw.
I went back to the little "ditz" and told her by the way, I was called into a meeting. All they told me was you cannot handle what is going on in the Way. What I told you was true.
So, your corps may have been afraid to tell you for the reasons I just outlined. They may have REALLY wanted to tell you.
It was all so sick! So, yeah let's all talk about the virtue in his "sex" class.... NOT
Valerie52
Amen to you and Geoy!
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
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Lifted Up
Mike posted...
Who says non-sex is a virtue? I believe, rather, that it has a lot to do with the setting.
But the real thing that grabs me is the line about "so many go without their needs being met in that area."
Mike, have you got your needs and wants parallel???
I need sex. It is Godly for me to go out and rape whom I choose, because even though there will be outrage at my act, that outrage is only culturally and not Godly based. Your statements plainly lead to that conclusion.
Is it Godly to hurt someone? If not, then put yourself in a victim's place (may be difficult) and picture yourself liking some of the acts here described done without your consent.
(BTW consent doesn't automatically make it right either IMO but that's another debate).
Probably the wrong choice of words...instead picture yourself not being hurt by someone touching you in the wrong place.
Tell us, what catastrophic thing happens to a man of God if he doesn't get his sexual needs met?
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krys
In response to Mike's post Lifted said:
awwwwwwwww. Poor mogies not getting enough nookie!
That does not give them the inherent right to impress my DIL and others like her...violate her for their pleasure so they can get their rocks off and in the meantime deprive my son.
[This message was edited by krysilis on September 21, 2003 at 13:23.]
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Trefor Heywood
johniam
I have read Lerviticus - do you eat shellfish? Do you wear mixed fibre clothes? These are also listed as "abominations". You have no idea of the context and neither have you of how outdated what is contained therein is.
David could have been homosexual, or at least bisexual, his relationship with Jonathan is certainly presented in an interesting way. Ruth and Naomi could also have had an intesresting relationship as could Jesus and his "beloved disciple".
Such simplistic arguments and assumptions are what let Wierwille get away with what he did. You can make the Bible prove anything you want to and clothe sex or anti sex with a religious garb.
I don't buy simplistic "the Bible says" arguments becuase how you read it is obviously very different to how I read it, your view of God is very different to mine.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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vickles
Gosh mike, what you said is pretty sick thinking. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and think that maybe you communicated way wrong. I hope?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Mike
vickles,
Thank you. I am sure there are a multitude of miscommunications in this field. The emotions are high, and that includes revenge or surrogate revenge motives. Many people have differing moral systems regarding various elements. What is casually no big deal to one person means all the world to another. Everyone has differing slants on these items and differing definitions of the terms.
My ?Mirror Reversal? thread is designed to show how one person holds onto definition #1 of reverse, unaware that their debating partner in this riddle holds a completely differing definition #2, and all the while neither of them is aware of an obscure definition #3. Without clarifying all these things it?s hopeless confusion that characterizes most conversations on mirror reversal as well as sex.
*****
Dot,
You?ll never know what I?m talking about until you get off the high horse that various elements have built into your conscience that are pure baloney. You think all your guts instincts are correct with biology and with God but I know that SOME of them are not. Until you question the things you think you are sure of now you will not progress spiritually. Your emotions rule your mind and it should be the other way around.
If you think that you're immune to being perverse and far from God?s truth and attitude, then you will not grow... in the right direction.
You must ask God to reveal to you where you are DEAD wrong on things, or you will stay dead wrong.
Your use of profanity only proves to me that you are in a prison constructed by the devil and his world culture. It is very persuasive, but in the wrong direction. It?s no better than a two year old?s temper tantrums. Grow UP!
Life is too short for bitterness.
As for the touching, I said I share your pre-programming to feel outrage, and I felt the same way when I first heard the saying that ?there?s no difference...? However I have learned to ask WHY do I fee that outrage. This is a step in development you have not yet enjoyed. You refuse to question your own sense of propriety. I invite you to a path to non-bitter coffee.
*****
Lifted Up,
You wrote: ?It is Godly for me to go out and rape whom I choose, because even though there will be outrage at my act, that outrage is only culturally and not Godly based. Your statements plainly lead to that conclusion.?
They only lead there when you don?t take the whole story into consideration. I do NOT mean to imply that with my words, nor with my actions, nor do I feel that way inside. It?s a false conclusion you arrived at due to miscommunication. Maybe I didn?t say it best, but I am sure you didn?t read it best.
I hurt for all true victims, and even the false ones. The false victims are those who elevate sex (or NON-sex) to the level of a god and then are terribly hurt when it collapses on them. I think a lot of people have a false perspective on sex, built by the RC goddess of NON-sex, their Mary, and it?s designed to make them victims when they need not be.
I see a lot of proper sexual morals as promoting efficiency in our culture, while I see the established sex morals (often proclaimed here) as bringing about great inefficiency. People are raised up with false expectations about some divine aspect of sex that?s not real, and then dashed to pieces when it they run to the opposite.
I?m not saying I want to see a relaxation of morals, just a reexamination of how intensely we?ve invested in them. I think what is considered sound sex morals are very religiously idiotic, but they are so ingrained and so intense, that people think they are at the door of divine perfection with them. Our culture is broken on this subject. Just as broken as the starving children from Biafra with flies crawling on their faces. The devil imprisoned them with food idiocy (like can?t eat cows), and us with sex prohibitions that go way beyond anything God ever had in mind. The sanctity of sex, the spirituality of sex, the intense negative emotions that go along with it all are way out of proportion. In most people?s minds sex is a sacred cow.
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Lifted Up
Well, then, maybe we'd both better read your post again. Perhaps it is understandable if my interpretation of what you posted did not match what you were thinking when you made the post. But then I wasn't trying to decipher what you meant. I was making an honest attempt to read your post from the point of view of a victim, and that's how I saw it. In no way do I think that you believe it is Godly to forcibly rape (redundant, I know, but I need the emphasis) someone to satisfy someone's "needs". But in my (good or poor, don't know) attempt to read it from a victim's point of view, that's what it said very plainly.
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Mike
Lifted Up,
I honestly hurt for the victims. Even the ones who had false expectations that were dashed to the ground.
However, there?s another factor to consider when it comes to those in the Corps program. In the Thessalonians tapes Dr mentions this, and also in many of the early Corps recruiting pitches it came up a lot. That program was supposed to be like boot camp with tough tests thrown at people. In boot camp sometimes live ammo is used that?s very dangerous. Not quite as dangerous as real war, but sometimes close. Sometimes in boot camp recruits even die from the rigors, just not nearly as many as real war.
Corps recruits were warned that they would be given challenging situations, in order to prepare their emotions for what they would be hit with on the field. In a few situations things may have gone wrong, or someone may have slipped bast the initial barriers and wasn?t at all prepared for such rough testing. Dr was rough on his Corps at times because they were engaged in a war. EVERYONE volunteered that was in there, and they should have known it could get dicey. The expectations that the Corps was going to be all sweet fellowship were false.
I?ve heard of deaths in military boot camps and grieved for those victims. I yearn for the day God will make all this crap worth it. It?s coming!
If I were a victim of any of the sex crap, or if I had been close enough to witness it, I too may be overwhelmed by these emotions and posting in a heated rage against Dr and the entire program. In the months prior to me seeing Dr?s Last/Lost Teaching and several other things that had slipped by me, I DID REACH the stages of rage over these things. I was rescued as I came back to PFAL and started reading again. What Dr ministered to me in those books helped soothe that rage quite quickly because I hadn?t had it for too long, and had not magnified it by expressing it (RRR) to others.
My feelings now are of great sympathy for the victims, and I KNOW looking for a villain in Dr will only compound their pain over the years. The only hope for the victims is God and His pure Word. Their incessant venting will only strengthen the adversary?s grip on them.
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vickles
so what are you saying mike? That it was ok for vpw to do what he did because he was testing them? What if he would have gone after the men? What if he approached you and grabbed your balls and said they were nicely shaped? How would you feel then?
Sorry if this sounds like I'm baiting you. I'm just getting some thoughts out for thinking purposes.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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vickles
I reread what you wrote to dot, mike. I happen to know her personally. She is a fine person that truly does try to do the best walk.
I think I remember writing a post directed to you saying the same thing that you said to dot. Is there a mirror handy?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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