quote:3) In the bible, sex education was simple. The only source of input was family; even the grandparents got involved. No hostile atmosphere. The law made it clear in Leviticus 18 and other places that incest, homosexuality, and bestiality were perverted. Simple.
Not so simple as you make out and I challenge the mentality that continues to link homosexuality with other things.
You are probably right, however, about it being a family input and it remained that way until relatively recent times, the mother giving advice to the daughter just before her marriage etc.
As to incest, was that not how the human race originally increased? In PFAL, VPW taught that Adam and Eve's sons married their sisters, that was OK then because the blood was still relatively pure.
Oh my goodness...we KNEW this would come out eventually. Incest, homosexuality...It wasn't incest until when? Does anyone have a clue? (Perhaps sometime during the 400 years between Genesis and Exodus when the earth was pretty well populated). By the time of the Law of Moses there were enough people to go around. The jury is still out on the homosex issue. Too hot a topic as we have seen in other forums here.
Trefor: Read Leviticus 18. As for incest, yes, originally Adam and Eve's children had to marry each other. Issac and Jacob married first cousins. Moses father Amram married his own aunt. Lot's daughters incestually raped him for the purpose of keeping the human race alive, but the offspring which resulted from this became two nations (Ammon and Moab) which were thorns to Israel. By the time Leviticus was written there was no more reason to marry a sister. Biblically, there is no record of any homosexual doing anything good for God or his people.
Something about someone who says one thing and does another can make anyone sick.
"a parable in the mouth of a fool" Something like that.
The words in this class were worthless because of the one speaking them. Maybe if someone else with integrity and honour had spoken them they would be worth remembering.
....Sounds like this whole concept has brought out a bunch of mixed feelings....perhaps it is fair to say that the doctrine was questionable as it has trouble supporting itself spiritually?
(P.S - where is everyone getting their really cool 'id' pictures??? I gotta dumb lookin 4x4!)
one of my issues is that a man(men) of god (MOGs) heterosexual(s) get it ? -- this includes before way and in the way -- hurt me beyond spiritual measure
i take great offense at anyone measuring anything by the bible (?spiritual?) standards
And I dont think youre a monster, just passionate about your views - and honey, passion is NEVER a bad thing!!! (thought it fit under this category...)
So anytime you want to be passionate...oh...nevermind...
Rottie, I am sorry because I am going to have a brief derail then I will leave so I will not mess it up.
White dove
quote: My question is this I guess if everything was so wrong, if everything was so pointless, if everything was so evil. Then why the hell did they stay around so long ? Why only when you get scr*w*d over does everything become bad that was just fine before? But you are right we can disagree and I don't have a problem with that. I just don't see the profit in being unkind just because you can.
White Dove: "My question is this I guess if everything was so wrong, if everything was so pointless, if everything was so evil. Then why the hell did they stay around so long ?"
Dot's response: That is a fair question and things we have all discussed here for years. I/we have been over this many times. You are welcome to read some other threads and to understand how others feel about that question. There are threads on the condemnation they heaped on you when you considered leaving. Some stayed because of fear because they were afraid they would die if they left. ( All that talk of being a Grease Spot by midnight...) There were many reasons.
Mine, personally, was a few reasons, the biggest was I could not reconcile the deliverance from PFAL with the bad man who taught it. I thought I could change things. I confronted Weirwille. But these are all things we have talked about for years. Threads about Why did you stay? Did you think you could change things. It is a confluence of things.
Why did you stay? Why did you leave?
White Dove: ?It's not about sympathy it is simply giving credit where it is due, and speaking up where it is not. But there are many people who just want to be angry and therefore see everything as bad and because of that they don't care if what they say is true or not.?
Dot's response: Maybe while they were taking the class they could not hear the pretense of ?love? your wife because they already knew of the opposite secret policy TWI?s leaders promoted. I dunno, but I am not going to be hard on them because they did not see VPW as a loving man of God teaching them how to love a woman. That has proven to be a farce.
White Dove: "Why only when you get scr*w*d over does everything become bad that was just fine before?"
Dot's response: I can only answer for myself and not for anyone else as you can only answer from the warehouse of your experiences.
It was NEVER just fine before. In the beginning, on a planet far far away there was twig fellowship run by beautiful people. These people took a class that BG Leonard put together but was shown to them by VPW who claimed it was his class. The fellowship I attended, I give credit to God, to BG Leonard, to Eddie Fisher and Joe Guarini for the good. WHEN I got to know VPW it all turned to ..... There was never a good time with him. Perhaps you had some good times praise God life with TWI was good for you.
White dove: "I just don't see the profit in being unkind just because you can."
Dot's response: I do not consider myself unkind, I consider myself honest. I have NO respect for VPW and I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.
Welcome to freedom. I FIRMLY believe he is not a MOG. He was not the MOG for the world; he wasn't even a good farm boy minister and I stand before God accountable for my opinion. I do not regret having that opinion and it will not change.
If you enjoyed certain times and teachings of VPW, fine, you can even start a thread on it and will get some supportive posts. But I am here to express my opinions BEFORE GOD and I do not have a problem with the way I feel or in saying it.
You are welcome to just skip over my posts.
I HOPE people out there are reading my opinion and other people's opinions and form their own truth.
I do not retract nor regret anything I said, nor do I apologize for my humor. Again, if there are people that do not like my posts then don't read them. I am not going to CHANGE because it might offend someone about VPW or Craig. The days of being afraid of them or stating what I really think of them is over.
WE just have different views on him. That is okay. You can think what you want I am sure my negative experiences will not change your positive ones.
You seem to have a "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" attitude with your Melanie analogy. Many do. You remember a kinder and gentler Weirwille. I do not think that man EVER existed. But you do. Keep your memories. I do not have THOSE memories.
I think Rosemary's baby was in the bath water and frankly I hope they both go down the drain.
Welcome to America. We don?t have to be ?like-minded?.
You seem like a very nice, funny, warm person. If in your life VPW had many positive influences then I am glad you can have that kind of a memory. My memory is of a fat old naked man who called me in the coach and tried to manipulate me into performing acts on him. I declined. So, then it was his duty to ?watch me? because I was then bad corps. (to discredit me and ruin my life)
I stuck around. I confronted him. I even went to him with the Bible to show him these many, many, many acts were lewd and against the word of God (talk to an old trunk leader). VP would not consider his actions were wrong.
I spend years stuffing his .... into a lock box. Well honey the lock is off. You can glom onto the good. You can drink the bath water if you choose and that is okay for you. As I said, I was happy worshiping God until I got to know VPW and his corps.
There are many fans of VP around. That is fine. There are many who hold to a sliver of good about the man. EVERYONE has their opinion. But I will not add a soft touch when I refer to him and if that offends you, skip my posts.
Think what you want. You think I am angry? Could be. Or maybe I am past it and have come to terms with the fact that I was in a cult just like a Jim Jones or a David Koresh cult. I was no better than all those people who got tricked. I was not into something good that went bad, I was involved in something that was bad and I was ?too naive? to see it. I am not naive anymore.
If you wish to carry this further please private topic me. I don?t want to ruin Rottie?s thread further.
Sorry Rottie, I am leaving this thread so I do not derail it any further.
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 20, 2003 at 22:54.]
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johniam
Not so simple as you make out and I challenge the mentality that continues to link homosexuality with other things.
You are probably right, however, about it being a family input and it remained that way until relatively recent times, the mother giving advice to the daughter just before her marriage etc.
As to incest, was that not how the human race originally increased? In PFAL, VPW taught that Adam and Eve's sons married their sisters, that was OK then because the blood was still relatively pure.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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exousia
Oh my goodness...we KNEW this would come out eventually. Incest, homosexuality...It wasn't incest until when? Does anyone have a clue? (Perhaps sometime during the 400 years between Genesis and Exodus when the earth was pretty well populated). By the time of the Law of Moses there were enough people to go around. The jury is still out on the homosex issue. Too hot a topic as we have seen in other forums here.
exousia
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johniam
Trefor: Read Leviticus 18. As for incest, yes, originally Adam and Eve's children had to marry each other. Issac and Jacob married first cousins. Moses father Amram married his own aunt. Lot's daughters incestually raped him for the purpose of keeping the human race alive, but the offspring which resulted from this became two nations (Ammon and Moab) which were thorns to Israel. By the time Leviticus was written there was no more reason to marry a sister. Biblically, there is no record of any homosexual doing anything good for God or his people.
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excathedra
incest to same sex..... what am i missing ???
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excathedra
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excathedra
ps. this thread sucks but i have issues
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Vertical Limit
Something about someone who says one thing and does another can make anyone sick.
"a parable in the mouth of a fool" Something like that.
The words in this class were worthless because of the one speaking them. Maybe if someone else with integrity and honour had spoken them they would be worth remembering.
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Mr Incredible
....Sounds like this whole concept has brought out a bunch of mixed feelings....perhaps it is fair to say that the doctrine was questionable as it has trouble supporting itself spiritually?
(P.S - where is everyone getting their really cool 'id' pictures??? I gotta dumb lookin 4x4!)
Michael B.
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excathedra
i like your 4x4
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excathedra
still flippin out
i spent a lot of time doing good for god -- still waiting on him
oh my god i am heartly sorry for having offended thee and i detest all my sins because of thy just punishment........
you get the idea
sorry i'm a little po'd
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excathedra
i have no use for your bible or your god
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excathedra
one of my issues is that a man(men) of god (MOGs) heterosexual(s) get it ? -- this includes before way and in the way -- hurt me beyond spiritual measure
i take great offense at anyone measuring anything by the bible (?spiritual?) standards
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excathedra
sorry calm down excathedra
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Mr Incredible
you are very sweet....thank you...but would rather have a guitar there instead; describes me better.
Michael B.
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excathedra
there are some wonderful computer geekies that can help you with that guitar
thank you for saying i'm sweet
help me calm down........ right now i feel like a monster......
:)-->
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Tom Strange
MyseestorEx... come away from this thread with me... where's your glass?
Rottie: you've been having too much fun here... settle down or we'll have to get out the hose!
... confusion will be my epitath...
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excathedra
thanks tommyS you're right.... i don't feel so good (kids back in school, bring home buggies etc)
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Tom Strange
here you go.... take this...
... confusion will be my epitath...
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excathedra
mwah
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Dot Matrix
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 20, 2003 at 20:48.]
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Mr Incredible
computer geekies huh....?
And I dont think youre a monster, just passionate about your views - and honey, passion is NEVER a bad thing!!! (thought it fit under this category...)
So anytime you want to be passionate...oh...nevermind...
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excathedra
hey white dove...... shut up! wierwille said this ? ha ha ha ha hah a ha ha ha hah ah ah aah ah aha hahah ahha
michael b.
:)-->
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excathedra
black dove, you said this to dottie. i guess you never knew wierwille. he had an art of being unkind just because he was the moggie.
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Dot Matrix
Rick
Thanks for having a sense of humor!
Rottie, I am sorry because I am going to have a brief derail then I will leave so I will not mess it up.
White dove
White Dove: "My question is this I guess if everything was so wrong, if everything was so pointless, if everything was so evil. Then why the hell did they stay around so long ?"
Dot's response: That is a fair question and things we have all discussed here for years. I/we have been over this many times. You are welcome to read some other threads and to understand how others feel about that question. There are threads on the condemnation they heaped on you when you considered leaving. Some stayed because of fear because they were afraid they would die if they left. ( All that talk of being a Grease Spot by midnight...) There were many reasons.
Mine, personally, was a few reasons, the biggest was I could not reconcile the deliverance from PFAL with the bad man who taught it. I thought I could change things. I confronted Weirwille. But these are all things we have talked about for years. Threads about Why did you stay? Did you think you could change things. It is a confluence of things.
Why did you stay? Why did you leave?
White Dove: ?It's not about sympathy it is simply giving credit where it is due, and speaking up where it is not. But there are many people who just want to be angry and therefore see everything as bad and because of that they don't care if what they say is true or not.?
Dot's response: Maybe while they were taking the class they could not hear the pretense of ?love? your wife because they already knew of the opposite secret policy TWI?s leaders promoted. I dunno, but I am not going to be hard on them because they did not see VPW as a loving man of God teaching them how to love a woman. That has proven to be a farce.
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
White Dove: "Why only when you get scr*w*d over does everything become bad that was just fine before?"
Dot's response: I can only answer for myself and not for anyone else as you can only answer from the warehouse of your experiences.
It was NEVER just fine before. In the beginning, on a planet far far away there was twig fellowship run by beautiful people. These people took a class that BG Leonard put together but was shown to them by VPW who claimed it was his class. The fellowship I attended, I give credit to God, to BG Leonard, to Eddie Fisher and Joe Guarini for the good. WHEN I got to know VPW it all turned to ..... There was never a good time with him. Perhaps you had some good times praise God life with TWI was good for you.
White dove: "I just don't see the profit in being unkind just because you can."
Dot's response: I do not consider myself unkind, I consider myself honest. I have NO respect for VPW and I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.
Welcome to freedom. I FIRMLY believe he is not a MOG. He was not the MOG for the world; he wasn't even a good farm boy minister and I stand before God accountable for my opinion. I do not regret having that opinion and it will not change.
If you enjoyed certain times and teachings of VPW, fine, you can even start a thread on it and will get some supportive posts. But I am here to express my opinions BEFORE GOD and I do not have a problem with the way I feel or in saying it.
You are welcome to just skip over my posts.
I HOPE people out there are reading my opinion and other people's opinions and form their own truth.
I do not retract nor regret anything I said, nor do I apologize for my humor. Again, if there are people that do not like my posts then don't read them. I am not going to CHANGE because it might offend someone about VPW or Craig. The days of being afraid of them or stating what I really think of them is over.
WE just have different views on him. That is okay. You can think what you want I am sure my negative experiences will not change your positive ones.
You seem to have a "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" attitude with your Melanie analogy. Many do. You remember a kinder and gentler Weirwille. I do not think that man EVER existed. But you do. Keep your memories. I do not have THOSE memories.
I think Rosemary's baby was in the bath water and frankly I hope they both go down the drain.
Welcome to America. We don?t have to be ?like-minded?.
You seem like a very nice, funny, warm person. If in your life VPW had many positive influences then I am glad you can have that kind of a memory. My memory is of a fat old naked man who called me in the coach and tried to manipulate me into performing acts on him. I declined. So, then it was his duty to ?watch me? because I was then bad corps. (to discredit me and ruin my life)
I stuck around. I confronted him. I even went to him with the Bible to show him these many, many, many acts were lewd and against the word of God (talk to an old trunk leader). VP would not consider his actions were wrong.
I spend years stuffing his .... into a lock box. Well honey the lock is off. You can glom onto the good. You can drink the bath water if you choose and that is okay for you. As I said, I was happy worshiping God until I got to know VPW and his corps.
There are many fans of VP around. That is fine. There are many who hold to a sliver of good about the man. EVERYONE has their opinion. But I will not add a soft touch when I refer to him and if that offends you, skip my posts.
Think what you want. You think I am angry? Could be. Or maybe I am past it and have come to terms with the fact that I was in a cult just like a Jim Jones or a David Koresh cult. I was no better than all those people who got tricked. I was not into something good that went bad, I was involved in something that was bad and I was ?too naive? to see it. I am not naive anymore.
If you wish to carry this further please private topic me. I don?t want to ruin Rottie?s thread further.
Sorry Rottie, I am leaving this thread so I do not derail it any further.
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 20, 2003 at 22:54.]
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