Rottie I would agree with you I like to cook when I have the time. I think it was a poor attempt to put a little humor in the segment like the apple pear joke (which was an old one) like the PFAl jokes they were not funny.I don't think he ment it to be sexist he could have said it a angel in the living room I honestly think he just wanted to clear up the religious idea that you could not enjoy sex or have great sex . He just did it poorly .
WhiteDove, I know what you mean I really do. I also agree he did it poorly.
Dots: lol, I was thinking the same thing. And I agree, it really should have been seperate male/female classes, but considering the content it still sounded like some of it would have been patronizing and offensive as hell.
...Ain't no grave, gonna hold this body down..when I hear that trumpet sound...
Yes I did check the notes and the video in some cases because I wanted to make sure I was right in what I spoke. Which is my point alot of people read these posts and some go away thinking that they heard truth now that is partly their fault but then again we believed a lot of things because we trusted others too. what I was trying to say is that we need to think maybe more as posters before we just throw out some half recolected thing as truth.
But yes I do think that there are a lot of people here who have been scr*w*d over and are not honest in their words because they are angry many with good reason granted.
I've been working on your stuff so let me say it this way Melanie has done some bad songs but she has also done many very good ones. I don't trash her work because she had a bad day nor do I throw everything out because of a poor choice in her words in one or two songs. It's not about sympathy it is simply giving credit where it is due, and speaking up where it is not. But there are many people who just want to be angry and therefore see everything as bad and because of that they don't care if what they say is true or not. Now they can think what they want but when you influence others wrongly without any concern then I would say we should maybe consider if that is the path we want to take and be accountable to God for.
I did preface my post with the fact that I know that some just did not remember what was said no big deal. But before I got on the forums and said something bad about you ( and I wouldn't) But if I was so inclined knowing that others would be reading . I'd at least be damn sure I have my facts straight. My question is this I guess if everything was so wrong,if everything was so pointless,if everything was so evil. Then why the hell did they stay around so long ? Why only when you get scr*w*d over does everything become bad that was just fine before? But you are right we can disagree and I don't have a problem with that. I just don't see the profit in being unkind just because you can.
OH yea then what is this Dove Soup I see on the Menu ? LOL
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
[This message was edited by WhiteDove on September 19, 2003 at 21:11.]
when I was young people always said to eat your vegetables or whatever was left on your plate because children in India were starving. To which we would always reply fine then send it to them. So I say drink your coffee children in India are sleeping. Somehow eating our food helped them not to starve so I figured drinking our coffee would help to wake them up. Makes about as much sense.
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
[This message was edited by WhiteDove on September 19, 2003 at 21:12.]
I first took this class when I was a youngin (19 yrs old). I scratched my head about masturbation being the original sin. But then when veepee tried to teach women how to masturbate, I really scratched my head. I thought now if Adam and Eve did it and got booted from the Garden of Eden, why it is OK to do it now? And then the suggestion he gave to women on how to masturbate was not a good one.
Rottie, in case you are wondering, he said that women/girls needed instruction because they weren't as knowledgeable in this area. (Go figure.) I don't remember needing any lesson on this. I guess he thought that because he thought women were more reserved in this category of life. He said men/boys didn't need it because their hands always found their way to that part of the body.
Wayfer Not. (doing my Elaine from Seinfeld impression) Get OUTTA HERE! He tried to teach women how to masturbate? LOLOLOL. What would that old fart know about that? And yeah, I mean, if he said that was the original sin.. I mean..OH sigh. I think I have to go to bed.
They're hand always found the way to that part of the body. unbelievable.
Good night greasespot til tomorrow.
...Ain't no grave, gonna hold this body down..when I hear that trumpet sound...
You got me wondering what WWS said, and that you labeled as mike-like, that was later deleted. I haven?t started reading this thread until just now.
I also noted your comment on the slang terms.
In the class Dr said the reason for the slang terms was so that if we were in leadership positions and needed to counsel people on sex the slang terms would probably pop up in such conversation. Dr said if we were ignorant of some term, or if we were startled or embarrassed by such a term, then the trust the counselee had for us would be jeopardized. He said we needed to be able to hear the term with out flinching even the tiniest bit.
This last item I?m not as sure on, but I also think he said that the blue nose christian world was dead wrong in thinking such terms were evil. I agree.
I took the CFS class three times. I liked it; I saw good from it. Here's why.
1) I agree with Whitedove that VPW's heart behind the class was to communicate that sex need not be associated with guilt and sin; that it's supposed to FUN!!! That doesn't mean he never was manipulative with it himself. I must admit that it bothers me to learn that he really did all that stuff to all those girls behind the scenes, but I'm not yet ready to dismiss everything he ever taught as evil.
2) Ten yrs ago Madonna said in an interview that she thought America has a 'sex problem'. The problem was in communication. That you can't just say what you think without SOMEBODY getting righteously indignant and that this has had a growing negative effect on a lot of peoples' attitude about their own sexuality. That they can't think about sex without associating it with guilt and that Europe and other places do not have this problem. I agree with her.
I was raised as an only child. From age 10 through HS graduation it was just me and my mom. She was born in 1910. 1910 model moms just didn't have the software package required to talk with adolescent sons candidly about sex. I was on my own. The first time I masturbated I knew I wasn't urinating, and I knew this girl in my 7th grade homeroom had something to do with it, but I didn't know what it was. In science class the teacher taught us about the digestive organs and the juices they secrete. For a brief time I lay in bed wondering if I'd broken through to the digestive organs and should immediately get a doctor to put them back in. Hilarious isn't it. Talk to my mom about this? HA! Talk to my friends? HA HA!! Talk to the girl in my 7th grade homeroom? Hmm. No. Sexual candidness in the USA is a hostile atmosphere which has scarred many adolescents even unto this day.
3) In the bible, sex education was simple. The only source of input was family; even the grandparents got involved. No hostile atmosphere. The law made it clear in Leviticus 18 and other places that incest, homosexuality, and bestiality were perverted. Simple.
Today, there's no topic of discussion that invites more confusion than sex. Who do you trust? Parents, siblings, kids in the neighborhood, etc???? When I was 9, a 10 yr old kid on my street said what's cuff spelled backwards? When I said it he said that's a BAD word and don't ever say it in front of grown ups. Sounds like sex ed to me.
4) Conclusion. VPW was a 1916 model MOG. He surely grew up around uptight people re: sex. His despicable behavior notwithstanding, it was better for him to share his heart on such a key topic than to not say anything like my 1910 mom. Not to do so would have been irresponsible of him. Plotinus, do you counsel people on sex? I saw people take CFS with their moms. That class was about interpersonal communication, not the exploitation of women. He didn't need a class to further that agenda since he did it in secret. Sadly, most of the posts on this thread have beautifully played right into the hostile environment Madonna spoke of.
Which is my point alot of people read these posts and some go away thinking that they heard truth now that is partly their fault but then again we believed a lot of things because we trusted others too. what I was trying to say is that we need to think maybe more as posters before we just throw out some half recolected thing as truth.
WD: I agree with you totally on this.
Trashing things just for the sake of trashing can be misleading, can add salt to a wound and can help GSC as a whole loose credibility.
On the other hand, posters DO like to vent, so I take some of what is said with a grain of salt.
One of the lessons I have learned through the whole twi experience is to not take things by blind faith. I do not NEED some leader teaching the depths of the Word in order to be spiritually fulfilled, I NEED to get off my butt and DO things for His children, not just throw out a teaching and go home. But, i'm ranting now. Back to the topic:
For me, the bottom line of that class is this:
1. It WAS inappropriate, or at least, just a primer. I feel that sexual matters should be taught by people of the same sex, the exception being if there is an EXPERT in the field. Vpw was no expert. He set himself up to look like one. To us who trusted him, he was. Looking back, much of the info is dated and narrow minded. Women's sexuality taught by a man. What a laugh. It is NOT the final word in sex ed, but the MOGFODAT taught it, so it must be all we needd, right?
2. Most people remember only 1 thing from that class after all these years- his definition of original sin.
He could not show us in black and white ("if the bible does not tell us, we do not know" was the exhortation in pfal) so we had to rely on his interpretation. Why was that a part of the class if the research was incomplete, or whatever he said about it? Shock value. Really heavy stuff! God must be REALLY working with him !! Again, to us neophytes in the word, what the MOGFODAT says must be true, right?
3. On the plus side, I must say that the class did instill in me the mindset of sex as a way of giving, of satisfying my partner for it to be fulfilling. I do not know if I have this because of the class or because of the kind of person I am, but it did at least reinforce this value in me.
(There have been a lot of stuff on the other words of the title of the class. . . . )
From P-Mosh
quote:. . . I remember a "men's night" type outing where an ordained TWI minster whose last name rhymes with Boynihan made a few somewhat off statements . . . .rude towards women.
While I can understand some mysogeny being inherent in Christian groups....
Mysogyny is NOT inherent in Christian groups. In TWI, yes, but mysogyny (hatred of women) is not a Christian virtue.
:)--> Jesus loves his wife -- the bride of Christ -- so much -- it's unfathomable.
:)--> men like that do exist today. In twi I never saw one, although have seen men who love their wives among people who have left twi.
:)--> The first flesh-and-blood man who loved his wife like that I saw was in Catholic Church. The second one was, too.
I think this is because Catholic church teaches:
1. Reverence for Christ and His Cross
2. Personal accountability for working out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (I was recently reading an article from The Catholic Digest, "Prayers at the Kitchen Sink," which dealt with the living prayer of the work we do day by day, which is a recurring theme in the magazine.
:)--> Billy Graham, James Dobson and so many other public Christians do love their wives in a Christian way. In order to last in the mainstream body of Christ you do need to have your house in order.
Not the least of an example of this was Johnny Cash.
:(--> the phony hypocritical man-use-a-woman we came to experience in twi is not the Normal Christian way.
NOTE ON LAUGHTER IS THE BEST MEDICINE:
The best times of CF&S I had in twi were the laughing times. Gary Giles ran a CF&S class and his kindhearted tenderness kept it together with some nice humor.
Also on this thread there are some really funny lines.
example: Someone says, "offhand comment about masturbation" and later there is a post, "... all masturbation was offhand:)-->"
I wish I could go through with a highlighter and mark them.
Thanks to all of your for your kindness,
:)-->," God
[This message was edited by Kit Sober on September 20, 2003 at 11:24.]
[This message was edited by Kit Sober on September 20, 2003 at 11:27.]
Did you never see the love that Uncle Harry had for Naomi? I did and it was awesome. I spent some personal times with him and the things he told me about his feelings toward her still give me gooosebumps.
I want to say thank you to those who have spoken up positively about the class. I never took it, so I've often wondered about its contents. Reading the accounts on this thread, I'd say I was better off without it. But at least I know it wasn't a TOTAL waste of time.
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Dot Matrix
ROTFLMAO
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
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up on high
WhiteDove, you're back in business-another word "Back"
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exousia
u r welcome Rottie!!! Smooch.
exousia
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WhiteDove
Rottie I would agree with you I like to cook when I have the time. I think it was a poor attempt to put a little humor in the segment like the apple pear joke (which was an old one) like the PFAl jokes they were not funny.I don't think he ment it to be sexist he could have said it a angel in the living room I honestly think he just wanted to clear up the religious idea that you could not enjoy sex or have great sex . He just did it poorly .
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
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Dot Matrix
Now knowing ALL we know happened in TWI
I am surprised CF&S did not have "workshops" after class.
Where they "paired" us up.
LOL!
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
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RottieGrrrl
exousia: Smooch back atcha.
WhiteDove, I know what you mean I really do. I also agree he did it poorly.
Dots: lol, I was thinking the same thing. And I agree, it really should have been seperate male/female classes, but considering the content it still sounded like some of it would have been patronizing and offensive as hell.
...Ain't no grave, gonna hold this body down..when I hear that trumpet sound...
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WhiteDove
Dot The mirror thing was crass and unexcuseable.
Yes I did check the notes and the video in some cases because I wanted to make sure I was right in what I spoke. Which is my point alot of people read these posts and some go away thinking that they heard truth now that is partly their fault but then again we believed a lot of things because we trusted others too. what I was trying to say is that we need to think maybe more as posters before we just throw out some half recolected thing as truth.
But yes I do think that there are a lot of people here who have been scr*w*d over and are not honest in their words because they are angry many with good reason granted.
I've been working on your stuff so let me say it this way Melanie has done some bad songs but she has also done many very good ones. I don't trash her work because she had a bad day nor do I throw everything out because of a poor choice in her words in one or two songs. It's not about sympathy it is simply giving credit where it is due, and speaking up where it is not. But there are many people who just want to be angry and therefore see everything as bad and because of that they don't care if what they say is true or not. Now they can think what they want but when you influence others wrongly without any concern then I would say we should maybe consider if that is the path we want to take and be accountable to God for.
I did preface my post with the fact that I know that some just did not remember what was said no big deal. But before I got on the forums and said something bad about you ( and I wouldn't) But if I was so inclined knowing that others would be reading . I'd at least be damn sure I have my facts straight. My question is this I guess if everything was so wrong,if everything was so pointless,if everything was so evil. Then why the hell did they stay around so long ? Why only when you get scr*w*d over does everything become bad that was just fine before? But you are right we can disagree and I don't have a problem with that. I just don't see the profit in being unkind just because you can.
OH yea then what is this Dove Soup I see on the Menu ? LOL
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
[This message was edited by WhiteDove on September 19, 2003 at 21:11.]
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WhiteDove
Well the intermadiate class had exceller sessions. But they wisely left them out of CF&S
Without Coffee
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RottieGrrrl
The mirror thing with Dotsie I think it was a joke her friend did for a giggle. I took it seriously too at first.
Now may I please ask What the hell does "drink your coffee children in India are sleeping" mean?
...Ain't no grave, gonna hold this body down..when I hear that trumpet sound...
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WhiteDove
Rottie
when I was young people always said to eat your vegetables or whatever was left on your plate because children in India were starving. To which we would always reply fine then send it to them. So I say drink your coffee children in India are sleeping. Somehow eating our food helped them not to starve so I figured drinking our coffee would help to wake them up. Makes about as much sense.
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
[This message was edited by WhiteDove on September 19, 2003 at 21:12.]
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RottieGrrrl
I swear parents must have secret meetings on these things they say to kids. I got the same thing and answered back the same thing too.
...Ain't no grave, gonna hold this body down..when I hear that trumpet sound...
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WhiteDove
hmmm maybe there was a manual with indexes. If children don't eat vegetables see page 34.
Without Coffee
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WhiteDove
Of course we only said that once as we were picking up our eyeballs after having them slapped out of our heads.
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Nottawayfer
I first took this class when I was a youngin (19 yrs old). I scratched my head about masturbation being the original sin. But then when veepee tried to teach women how to masturbate, I really scratched my head. I thought now if Adam and Eve did it and got booted from the Garden of Eden, why it is OK to do it now? And then the suggestion he gave to women on how to masturbate was not a good one.
Rottie, in case you are wondering, he said that women/girls needed instruction because they weren't as knowledgeable in this area. (Go figure.) I don't remember needing any lesson on this. I guess he thought that because he thought women were more reserved in this category of life. He said men/boys didn't need it because their hands always found their way to that part of the body.
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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RottieGrrrl
WhiteDove lol.
;)-->
Wayfer Not. (doing my Elaine from Seinfeld impression) Get OUTTA HERE! He tried to teach women how to masturbate? LOLOLOL. What would that old fart know about that? And yeah, I mean, if he said that was the original sin.. I mean..OH sigh. I think I have to go to bed.
They're hand always found the way to that part of the body. unbelievable.
Good night greasespot til tomorrow.
...Ain't no grave, gonna hold this body down..when I hear that trumpet sound...
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WordWolf
Yes.
The internal inconsistency with saying it was ok NOW when it was
supposedly responsible for the fall of man ONCE is one I had
difficulty repeating at all, let alone with conviction.
(I told ONE person, and that without sounding like I was firmly
agreeing.)
Rottie, the answer to your two questions was exactly the same answer.
The "mirror" thing probably came up because even in the taped class,
vpw said that women, at some time when they're alone, should look at
themselves in a mirror, that most women don't.
(That's one reason I may not remember any comment about any woman's body
part being ugly, "cognitive dissonance". Besides, I wouldn't have
believed it.)
We DID cover some verses. About 1 class' worth of it, maybe, was Scripture.
The other 6 would then have been "Bible-optional."
And, again, we did cover ONE time, in ONE session, how extramarital sex was
bad. It DID come up. However, that's a poor showing for a "Christian"
organization.
I'm sure a lot of differences happened between the live and taped classes.
Mine sounded a LOT less vulgar than the live ones.
Somewhere on a thread, some people said vpw had SHOWN that video with the
dog, in one class. I don't remember if it was CF & S, or Advanced class.
I'm STILL trying to figure out the relevance.
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Mike
Dot Matrix,
You got me wondering what WWS said, and that you labeled as mike-like, that was later deleted. I haven?t started reading this thread until just now.
I also noted your comment on the slang terms.
In the class Dr said the reason for the slang terms was so that if we were in leadership positions and needed to counsel people on sex the slang terms would probably pop up in such conversation. Dr said if we were ignorant of some term, or if we were startled or embarrassed by such a term, then the trust the counselee had for us would be jeopardized. He said we needed to be able to hear the term with out flinching even the tiniest bit.
This last item I?m not as sure on, but I also think he said that the blue nose christian world was dead wrong in thinking such terms were evil. I agree.
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Mike
Dot Matrix,
Oops. I goofed.
I re-read the post and see it was Steve Lortz who said it and you quoted it.
Then WWS deleted posts AFTER that. I'm confused. It's late.
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johniam
I took the CFS class three times. I liked it; I saw good from it. Here's why.
1) I agree with Whitedove that VPW's heart behind the class was to communicate that sex need not be associated with guilt and sin; that it's supposed to FUN!!! That doesn't mean he never was manipulative with it himself. I must admit that it bothers me to learn that he really did all that stuff to all those girls behind the scenes, but I'm not yet ready to dismiss everything he ever taught as evil.
2) Ten yrs ago Madonna said in an interview that she thought America has a 'sex problem'. The problem was in communication. That you can't just say what you think without SOMEBODY getting righteously indignant and that this has had a growing negative effect on a lot of peoples' attitude about their own sexuality. That they can't think about sex without associating it with guilt and that Europe and other places do not have this problem. I agree with her.
I was raised as an only child. From age 10 through HS graduation it was just me and my mom. She was born in 1910. 1910 model moms just didn't have the software package required to talk with adolescent sons candidly about sex. I was on my own. The first time I masturbated I knew I wasn't urinating, and I knew this girl in my 7th grade homeroom had something to do with it, but I didn't know what it was. In science class the teacher taught us about the digestive organs and the juices they secrete. For a brief time I lay in bed wondering if I'd broken through to the digestive organs and should immediately get a doctor to put them back in. Hilarious isn't it. Talk to my mom about this? HA! Talk to my friends? HA HA!! Talk to the girl in my 7th grade homeroom? Hmm. No. Sexual candidness in the USA is a hostile atmosphere which has scarred many adolescents even unto this day.
3) In the bible, sex education was simple. The only source of input was family; even the grandparents got involved. No hostile atmosphere. The law made it clear in Leviticus 18 and other places that incest, homosexuality, and bestiality were perverted. Simple.
Today, there's no topic of discussion that invites more confusion than sex. Who do you trust? Parents, siblings, kids in the neighborhood, etc???? When I was 9, a 10 yr old kid on my street said what's cuff spelled backwards? When I said it he said that's a BAD word and don't ever say it in front of grown ups. Sounds like sex ed to me.
4) Conclusion. VPW was a 1916 model MOG. He surely grew up around uptight people re: sex. His despicable behavior notwithstanding, it was better for him to share his heart on such a key topic than to not say anything like my 1910 mom. Not to do so would have been irresponsible of him. Plotinus, do you counsel people on sex? I saw people take CFS with their moms. That class was about interpersonal communication, not the exploitation of women. He didn't need a class to further that agenda since he did it in secret. Sadly, most of the posts on this thread have beautifully played right into the hostile environment Madonna spoke of.
5) OK all done. Take your best shot.
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wow76-78
WD: I agree with you totally on this.
Trashing things just for the sake of trashing can be misleading, can add salt to a wound and can help GSC as a whole loose credibility.
On the other hand, posters DO like to vent, so I take some of what is said with a grain of salt.
One of the lessons I have learned through the whole twi experience is to not take things by blind faith. I do not NEED some leader teaching the depths of the Word in order to be spiritually fulfilled, I NEED to get off my butt and DO things for His children, not just throw out a teaching and go home. But, i'm ranting now. Back to the topic:
For me, the bottom line of that class is this:
1. It WAS inappropriate, or at least, just a primer. I feel that sexual matters should be taught by people of the same sex, the exception being if there is an EXPERT in the field. Vpw was no expert. He set himself up to look like one. To us who trusted him, he was. Looking back, much of the info is dated and narrow minded. Women's sexuality taught by a man. What a laugh. It is NOT the final word in sex ed, but the MOGFODAT taught it, so it must be all we needd, right?
2. Most people remember only 1 thing from that class after all these years- his definition of original sin.
He could not show us in black and white ("if the bible does not tell us, we do not know" was the exhortation in pfal) so we had to rely on his interpretation. Why was that a part of the class if the research was incomplete, or whatever he said about it? Shock value. Really heavy stuff! God must be REALLY working with him !! Again, to us neophytes in the word, what the MOGFODAT says must be true, right?
3. On the plus side, I must say that the class did instill in me the mindset of sex as a way of giving, of satisfying my partner for it to be fulfilling. I do not know if I have this because of the class or because of the kind of person I am, but it did at least reinforce this value in me.
my apologies for such a long post.
love, ken
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Kit Sober
Christian
(There have been a lot of stuff on the other words of the title of the class. . . . )
From P-Mosh
Mysogyny is NOT inherent in Christian groups. In TWI, yes, but mysogyny (hatred of women) is not a Christian virtue.I think this is because Catholic church teaches:
1. Reverence for Christ and His Cross
2. Personal accountability for working out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (I was recently reading an article from The Catholic Digest, "Prayers at the Kitchen Sink," which dealt with the living prayer of the work we do day by day, which is a recurring theme in the magazine.
Not the least of an example of this was Johnny Cash.
NOTE ON LAUGHTER IS THE BEST MEDICINE:
The best times of CF&S I had in twi were the laughing times. Gary Giles ran a CF&S class and his kindhearted tenderness kept it together with some nice humor.
Also on this thread there are some really funny lines.
example: Someone says, "offhand comment about masturbation" and later there is a post, "... all masturbation was offhand
:)-->"
I wish I could go through with a highlighter and mark them.
Thanks to all of your for your kindness,
[This message was edited by Kit Sober on September 20, 2003 at 11:24.]
[This message was edited by Kit Sober on September 20, 2003 at 11:27.]
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Mike
Kit,
Did you never see the love that Uncle Harry had for Naomi? I did and it was awesome. I spent some personal times with him and the things he told me about his feelings toward her still give me gooosebumps.
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Bluzeman
OK, that's about the most hilarious line I've seen on this whole thread! Thanks Dot!
Rick
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Raf
I want to say thank you to those who have spoken up positively about the class. I never took it, so I've often wondered about its contents. Reading the accounts on this thread, I'd say I was better off without it. But at least I know it wasn't a TOTAL waste of time.
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