I can SO relate to your post. PFAL and TWI did help me. If I did not take the class (I credit Leonard for) I would not be alive today. I owe God and Leonard so much!
I think a lot of what draws lines here is there seems to be different groups of folks.
A. Those that never saw the inner circle and have fond memories of twig because they were removed from TWI and the inner Circle (When they finally heard about it they thought, "so they had affairs with a few people - I can forgive that")
B Those that were introduced to or a part of the "inner circle" who were hurt by it, or left it and are sorry for participating in it. ( We knew it was not a few people but hundreds, it was not an affair but a lifestyle of false doctrines and sometimes forced and drugged sex. They drank to excess and smoked weed. Women were around like the days of the Roman Empire, and if Moggie could not have one, it is reported girls were handed drinks with drugs in them)
C. Those that were involved or knew about the "inner circle" and still believe it was good and promote the twisted doctrines. (Some of these folks believed in this SO MUCH they became recruiters. Bringing girls to VPW. Drinking with him, closing the door on the coach while Moggie played - sometimes whether the girl was willing or not)
I was in group "A" and like you if anyone had said anything bad about VPW or TWI I think I would have kicked their a$$ or at least NEVER believed it.
I was so happy in group "A" that I went into the corps and became a part of "B". I wish I never saw the things I saw or heard the things I heard. It killed me, but I was determined to help people know it was NOT their fault that a man would use the Word of God to hurt them....
Then there is "C" . I only know TWO people who are still a part of "C". One is an egotistical woman who got women/girls to go be with VP and did not care how much it hurt them. When these recruits came to her crying in confusion she would then set out to destroy their credibility and lives. She told me, "It was better to sacrifice one to save many." I told her this one girl would kill herself and she said, "Well, then at least she will not be able to speak ill of the ministry.
These people "C" -- VPW, LCM, the recruits and recruiters to the inner circle believed what Mike has been saying. That touching a woman can help her feel better about herself. VPW taught one night to a small group in res. how in Africa there was a tribe where the father would break the hymen of their daughters and teach them about sex so they would be experienced for their husbands.
Since I have come here we have all come from different view points and bicker over some details. But MIKE is the FIRST person I have seen here who I believe is a category "C".
He KNOWS of the mottos and mantras of the INNER CIRCLE and he still believes in the lessons. He still believes VPW made women better by "touching them? or testing them sexually. That unasked for touch was not a violation but a blessing and if VPW did it or said he did it then it was out of a pure heart.
He does not see it was done out of a sick, blinded heart of a self-serving nature. HE thinks it is like the tribes in Africa a wonderful expression our culture does not accept. And if we could all just lay culture aside for a moment we TOO would understand.
Group "C" is dangerous. They were groomed by a serial rapist/molester and they do not and WILL NOT see it.
This inner circle sinned and believed that they lived above the word of God.
It was described to me as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior was considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them; they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5).
I believe that is who Mike is.
I believe you are a tender "A" and I am a tormented "B".
I so appreciate your heart. Sometimes when a "B" shares things an "A" has no way to relate to that experience because it was not like that for them. The "B" person has been through so much fighting the inner circle they forget how nice it was when they were an "A".
With us our hearts are all similar our experiences are different.
With a "C" (Those that were involved or knew about the "inner circle" and still believe it was good and promote the twisted doctrines.)
They are not like us. They are the people who killed the ministry and the hearts of many good people with selfish twisted doctrines.
I recognize you as my brother. I recognize the people here as family even those who do not believe in anything at the moment. As it stands right now, Mike is not my brother he is a wolf in sheeps clothing taught by the master wolf he has accepted his doctrines (the doctrines of devils) over the doctrines of Love OUR father God gave us.
Ex: No, I'm not sure if you even crack the Top 3 GreaseSpot Weirdos. GingerTea has you beat by a country mile in the "out there" department, but it's hard to classify some folks. Some are out-there by design (like Garth) and some are out-there by some sort of mental defect (like Mike).
You may not even crack the top five...
:D-->
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the word of God..."
My question is, as a man who thinks he knows a little about who is attractive and who is not, WHY did anyone even consider messing with VPW or LCM? This is somethng I cannot even comprehend. Was it an infatuation? Was it rape, or forced? Were women thinking it was love? I want to understand this. I hurt for all of you. I hate when people are used.
Ex: Cruel? What's not true about it? Is GingerTea somehow less weird (not bad, just weird) than you are, or does Garth NOT happily wear his particular eccentricities like a badge of honor, or is Mike somehow NOT a walking Psych thesis waiting to happen?
I'm sorry if you took it differently, but it wasn't meant to be derogatory, hence the smiley==> :D-->
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the word of God..."
I've been reading posts here for a while and never quite understood why you expressed such loathing for Mike. I figured everybody but me must know Mike's true identity, and disliked him personally ... otherwise, how could you so spiteful?
From his posts, Mike just seemed like a misguided soul, seriously adrift a sinking vessel in the uncharted waters of WayWorld. Having some sympathy for the mentally ill and mentally challenged, compassion seemed the more appropriate response to his rantings.
And, anyway, the best way to shut the guy up would be to ignore him completely ... just never respond to anything.
But now, Mikey has responded to MY posting, and I realize that the guy has a talent for punching hot buttons. Here's what he said:
You wrote: ?Yeah, it all came down to money and sex ...but ironically, CF&S was mostly about money.?
From the number of times I saw that class run, I think TWI lost money on it. It was video taped twice, once in B&W and then in color. VERY COSTLY. It was run very infrequently.
You then wrote: ?I just can't imagine why anybody spend their time defending the infallibility of VPW's writings on this site, but I suppose some folks really do spit into the wind.?
Like your guess on the money, your imagination needs help. That?s why I post here, to help armchair generals like you. You?ll never know why I do what I do until you come back to PFAL and master it. Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither has it entered the imagination of any man, the things that God has prepared for them that love Him.
To love God is easy. Jesus quoted Deut.6 when he pegged the greatest commandment. So, how could those natural men in the OT love God? Look at the verses following that quote early in the chapter. It says master the written Word. We never mastered PFAL like Deut 6 outlines. Until this mastery is undertaken, you can?t imagine what God put in PFAL and why I post this here.
The man is not just deranged; he's an idiot. (Oops, that's not compassionate. I hope he really has left this thread forever.)
VERY COSTLY? FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, the production values of CFS sucked so bad that if TWI could not possibly have spent more money producing this sorry class than it generated in tuition and ABS taken up every session. It's simple arithmetic. Remember that distribution costs were negligible as the classes were sold and administered by volunteer labor working for free. (Of course, after kickbacks to VPW and friends, the accounts could have looked as though it was a loser. But I don't distinguish between TWI revenue generation and VPW's personal corruption in handling TWI funds.)
But the citation of DUETERONOMY 6 takes the cake in this context. Our oh-so-ever-enlightened Mike cites Duetronomy 6 to demonstrate the divine inspiration of VPW's PFAL.
Dueteronomy 6 follows the enumeration of the 10 Commandments in chapter 5. I surmise that Mike doesn't believe that they apply in any way to our day and time but, regardless of his vain reckoning, they still have relevance. Duetoronomy 6:2 is particularly relevant in this context:
"That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged."
Let's see did his holiness VPW ever violate any of these commandments; say, perhaps, ADULTERY.
I don't have first-hand experience, but others of given their testimony.
BUT I DO KNOW THIS: HIS DAYS WERE NOT PROLONGED! VPW didn't make it to the three-score and ten, which the Scripture clearly states is normative.
That's a fact Jack ... your MOG died of cancer before 70. If he believe in VPW's divine inspiration, both the cause and timing of his death should cause Mike to reconsider.
Face it man, the man is dead as a doornail, his "ministry" is in shambles, and his writings were stolen from the works of others. PFAL? ... don't waste my time.
Just a few reminiscences from taking that class...
-- the first time I took CFS, it seemed like every time a picture of the black couple came on, Wierwille would make a remark, like "Isn't that WONderful? Isn't she beYOOtiful?" etc. It reminded me of his comments in "The Way Living In Love" where he said he was a bigot for many years following his brother's death, because he was killed by a black man. Over-compensation, perhaps? In later screenings, the comments were mostly edited out. I guess I wasn't the only one who noticed.
-- the slang terms. There were some I'd never heard of, and I lived in NYC. I was married to a former Navy man, and there were some HE'd never heard of. Many I've forgotten, having never heard them since. VP's assertion that we needed to hear them so we wouldn't flinch if they were used by a couple in counseling was just so much bunk it is pitiful. Gee, I'll remember this list just in case I counsel trailor trash, Vic, thanks. Because I couldn't possibly figure out what they were talking about without this list. Yeah, if VPW had wanted to desensitize us with this list, it certainly wasn't for counseling purposes -- except when HE was doing the "counseling."
-- Was it Plots who said that it seemed like Wierwille was just sharing his personal sexual preferences as if that is what every man wants? Agreed, and ick!
-- At the time, I was engaged to be married. My intended and I were worried that we were outside of God's will, and really listened to hear from Vic about what the Bible had to say about sex outside of marriage. (Somehow, I just couldn't look it up for myself?!) He said nothing, until the staged "question and answer" segment, where someone in his studio audience asked about it. I cannot recall the exact quote, but Vic said that the Word just wasn't specific about that. Huh? Looking back now, how convenient...
Personal note to Dot and Raf -- do you believe me now?
Mike,
Disgusting. But not surprising.
Dear Ginger,
Glad you saw Mike's posts here. I had heard something similar in a couple of Mike's earliest posts. Raf had heard more in a private email from Mike. I would suggest to you that sometimes it is better not to be polite to people bearing hurtful thoughts and opinions, as it makes it sound like the abuse is not a big deal. I have heard you be firm with others when you thought they were overstepping personal boundaries. (At least, I thought you were firm -- sometimes, your posts are so heavy on the jargon and light on the facts you are addressing that I have trouble understanding your point.) Likewise, I see no problem in being firm about what we disagree with in Mike's posts. It probably shouldn't lapse into personal attacks, but I think it is understandable at times. And the man who has been first to apologize for any lapse has always been Raf, while the last has always been Mike. That speaks volumes to me.
quote: However, IF the bible really is God's "opinion" of this or any other situation, then God, who made the human body, the heart, it's appetites, etc. most definitely has the authority to condemn homosexuality as perverted. I believe it is, and He does.
It's a really big IF. I always ask people, and they are never able to anwser, why Jesus never expressed an "opinion" on the subject. Considering how "important" it is supposed to be it was hardly high on his list of priorities.
I also ask why, if it is so "perverted" is it always found in a percentage of the human and even the aninmal population? If God was so worried about it why would people have this orientation which they are born with? I have great problems with a God who allows somebody to be made a particular way and then shoots them down for being what they are. This idea of "perversion" is based upon the philosophical misconstruct of that is termed the "natural law". But that can only work if only one thing is empirically "natural" as a yardstick to judge by. This is not the case - what is "natural" for a heterosexual is not the same for a homosexual and it could be argued that to try to be the opposite of one's nature is a perversion.
You are entitled to your belief but it is not really based upon the Bible but on your contruct of God and you therefore read it a certain way, and not surprisingly therefore find that God agrees with you, just as we found that God agreed with VPW in CFAS or any other class.
"It aint necessarily so, it aint necessarily so, the things that you liable to read in the Bible, it aint necessarily so."
Excathedra: I owe you a BIG apology. For some reason, it appears that I stopped reading your original post at the slash mark. (i.e., I only read "SOMETIMES i feel like the person with the most "out there" thoughts..." and missed the rest of it.)
That's all I keyed that stupid remark off of, and I see now that had I paid more attention to ALL of what you wrote, I would have seen that my remark was in fact wildly inappropriate in the whole context.
My humble apologies,
Zixar
(p.s. Garth is still a weirdo. Just ask him.)
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the word of God..."
"From his posts, Mike just seemed like a misguided soul, seriously adrift a sinking vessel in the uncharted waters of Way World. Having some sympathy for the mentally ill and mentally challenged, compassion seemed the more appropriate response to his rantings."
I kept trying to be nice to him or show concern for him for obvious "unbalanced" reasons
People were yelling "Get Help" "You are sick"
I asked him if VPW hurt him and maybe he should go talk to someone. He flipped out....
Have you met his side kick (which many of us believe is him) Sea spray?
Two things you can count on when the going gets tough he e-mails people to rally support. Back then his supporters had not even READ his posts, but he pushed their sympathy buttons and they would come on and post a little support post (unaware of the context or horrid things he said) He is a button pusher. He pushed some of the gentle hearts for support behind the scenes -- but then here on the forum he goes after people with maliciousness.
He will come on the forum and say how much support he has behind the scenes -- how people contact him and support his work.... Perhaps they listened the first three times but most people catch on to the "craziness" by then and back off.
So, first he will e-mail the tender hearted people for support (but I think they have caught on) Then, Sea spray shows up to defend him.
He is a professional button pusher. After all, he was groomed by the BEST and has continued to STUDY the master for the past what? 16 years?
Most people study criminals, i.e. Jeffrey Dalhmer, Gacey.... to learn how to CATCH them and STOP them. MIKE studies VPW to keep his legacy going, to continue to push the sick doctrines - i.e. sex is cultural and if he touched a woman it was a blessing not adultery.
I have to give it to him - he is a master at sniffing out what bothers others. He also has pegged whom to go to for sympathy and tries to hide behind the sweetest people. (He has lost some of them because they caught on)
Your new hasn't he tried to contact you and get you in his support stable? He will size you up quickly and use it for pain.
I have never seen a more unwelcomed person stick around so long. It is like an unwanted dinner guest who will just not go home.
When he began to say the supportive things for "sex with believers" being our cultural problem and going through the Bible for support I felt like I was talking to VPW again on the coach. Or those "inner circle" people who held fast to the teachings of the master.....
There was no difference between touching an elbow or a breast -- It is your thinking of it.
When I laid out some word to VPW on adultery his response was "What so ever things are pure...think on those things" He said it was MY THINKING evil is what made it evil.
He also told a small group at Emporia one night to teach their children about their bodies, "you can brush their nipple with your hand and show them how it hardens. You can show them not to be ashamed of their body reactions" Then he shared about the African Tribe where the Father broke the hymen of the daughters to get them experienced in sex to prepare them for marriage -- he thought it to be beautiful.
VPW had already let me see his dark side. Sitting there I thought OH MY GOD, this is subtle but he is teaching this group that it is beautiful to teach your daughters how to have sex, it is just not accepted in our culture! He was standing behind his sex problems and setting us up to have sex with our godly "family" as well as the earthly one.
I have not heard it so pure and so believed until Mike started to spew those theories all over again.
PS Those of you who wish you confronted VPW about his sex policies? The things Mike said on this thread would have been what VPW would have said to you -- then you would have realized what made VPW tick, you would have been shocked as you were here. If you have seen the MIKE you have seen the Weirwille.
By the way, you are a great arm chair General!!!! smirk!
My question is, as a man who thinks he knows a little about who is attractive and who is not, WHY did anyone even consider messing with VPW or LCM? This is somethng I cannot even comprehend. Was it an infatuation? Was it rape, or forced? Were women thinking it was love? I want to understand this. I hurt for all of you. I hate when people are used.
No, he was not attractive. Imagine my surprise when a naked old fat man sat before me naked in the coach thinking that would be a turn on!
But some girls like power and they felt "special". Some girls said "NO" like I think Sunesis and I did. Some girls were frozen in fear and shock (they were little teenagers) and some were given drinks and others drinks with drugs in them.
He took it anyway he could get it. He was a serial rapist. (IMO)
Thanks for so many kind words, and for a longer memory than my own. When you wrote "do you believe me now?" I didn't understand the question. Could you clarify if you get a chance?
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Dot Matrix
((((Joniam))))
I can SO relate to your post. PFAL and TWI did help me. If I did not take the class (I credit Leonard for) I would not be alive today. I owe God and Leonard so much!
I think a lot of what draws lines here is there seems to be different groups of folks.
A. Those that never saw the inner circle and have fond memories of twig because they were removed from TWI and the inner Circle (When they finally heard about it they thought, "so they had affairs with a few people - I can forgive that")
B Those that were introduced to or a part of the "inner circle" who were hurt by it, or left it and are sorry for participating in it. ( We knew it was not a few people but hundreds, it was not an affair but a lifestyle of false doctrines and sometimes forced and drugged sex. They drank to excess and smoked weed. Women were around like the days of the Roman Empire, and if Moggie could not have one, it is reported girls were handed drinks with drugs in them)
C. Those that were involved or knew about the "inner circle" and still believe it was good and promote the twisted doctrines. (Some of these folks believed in this SO MUCH they became recruiters. Bringing girls to VPW. Drinking with him, closing the door on the coach while Moggie played - sometimes whether the girl was willing or not)
I was in group "A" and like you if anyone had said anything bad about VPW or TWI I think I would have kicked their a$$ or at least NEVER believed it.
I was so happy in group "A" that I went into the corps and became a part of "B". I wish I never saw the things I saw or heard the things I heard. It killed me, but I was determined to help people know it was NOT their fault that a man would use the Word of God to hurt them....
Then there is "C" . I only know TWO people who are still a part of "C". One is an egotistical woman who got women/girls to go be with VP and did not care how much it hurt them. When these recruits came to her crying in confusion she would then set out to destroy their credibility and lives. She told me, "It was better to sacrifice one to save many." I told her this one girl would kill herself and she said, "Well, then at least she will not be able to speak ill of the ministry.
These people "C" -- VPW, LCM, the recruits and recruiters to the inner circle believed what Mike has been saying. That touching a woman can help her feel better about herself. VPW taught one night to a small group in res. how in Africa there was a tribe where the father would break the hymen of their daughters and teach them about sex so they would be experienced for their husbands.
Since I have come here we have all come from different view points and bicker over some details. But MIKE is the FIRST person I have seen here who I believe is a category "C".
He KNOWS of the mottos and mantras of the INNER CIRCLE and he still believes in the lessons. He still believes VPW made women better by "touching them? or testing them sexually. That unasked for touch was not a violation but a blessing and if VPW did it or said he did it then it was out of a pure heart.
He does not see it was done out of a sick, blinded heart of a self-serving nature. HE thinks it is like the tribes in Africa a wonderful expression our culture does not accept. And if we could all just lay culture aside for a moment we TOO would understand.
Group "C" is dangerous. They were groomed by a serial rapist/molester and they do not and WILL NOT see it.
This inner circle sinned and believed that they lived above the word of God.
It was described to me as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior was considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them; they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5).
I believe that is who Mike is.
I believe you are a tender "A" and I am a tormented "B".
I so appreciate your heart. Sometimes when a "B" shares things an "A" has no way to relate to that experience because it was not like that for them. The "B" person has been through so much fighting the inner circle they forget how nice it was when they were an "A".
With us our hearts are all similar our experiences are different.
With a "C" (Those that were involved or knew about the "inner circle" and still believe it was good and promote the twisted doctrines.)
They are not like us. They are the people who killed the ministry and the hearts of many good people with selfish twisted doctrines.
I recognize you as my brother. I recognize the people here as family even those who do not believe in anything at the moment. As it stands right now, Mike is not my brother he is a wolf in sheeps clothing taught by the master wolf he has accepted his doctrines (the doctrines of devils) over the doctrines of Love OUR father God gave us.
(IMHO)
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
(Note: Not all corps became "B" or "C" some were lucky enough to remain an "A". The inner circle's goal was to turn us all into a "C")
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 24, 2003 at 19:00.]
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Sunesis
Dot, that is one of the best, most cohesive posts I've read describing the sexual situation and goings on in TWI.
This is classic and should be required reading. Thanks for sharing your heart with this.
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Dot Matrix
It is my heart, thank you.
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
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CircleGame
I agree with Sunesis Dot, that post is well-written and thorough. Thank you!!
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WhiteDove
Wow I am without words. I had to print that off to save.
I left you a pt
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
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Dot Matrix
Love to all of you!!!
Someday, I hope that all the Mike's out there can repent and leave catagory "C" and move over to "B" and muddle through healing like the rest of us.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 22, 2003 at 19:37.]
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WordWolf
Dot,
Wolves protect their pack and care for them.
I ask that you not put them in the same category as sex perverts,
molesters, rapists, etc.
=========
BTW,
as anyone can tell from looking at a good collegiate dictionary
(as I did),
the definition of "testimony" taught at twi, like so many things,
was bull-kaka.
The word is derived from the Latin "testari" or "three".
That's because a "witness" is a "neutral third party".
Go ahead-look it up.
I suspect worship and preoccupation with your johnson could lead to
explanations like the one we were taught. At least, that's what
Freud would have said.
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excathedra
SOMETIMES i feel like the person with the most "out there" thoughts / rationalizations has the most hurtful things going on inside of them....
please don't flame me
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Vertical Limit
aaahh excathedra I was just lighting up the blow torch too!
:D-->
I like you rare though as in one of a kind.
good post
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lovematters
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krys
no no no - - no flames for you excathedra!
That was a profound statement. The fact that you made it shows what you're really all about.
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Zixar
Ex: No, I'm not sure if you even crack the Top 3 GreaseSpot Weirdos. GingerTea has you beat by a country mile in the "out there" department, but it's hard to classify some folks. Some are out-there by design (like Garth) and some are out-there by some sort of mental defect (like Mike).
You may not even crack the top five...
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the word of God..."
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exousia
Great post dot! Love you bunches.
My question is, as a man who thinks he knows a little about who is attractive and who is not, WHY did anyone even consider messing with VPW or LCM? This is somethng I cannot even comprehend. Was it an infatuation? Was it rape, or forced? Were women thinking it was love? I want to understand this. I hurt for all of you. I hate when people are used.
exousia
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excathedra
zix, with that post you just said, i think you're #1. that was really cruel....
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Zixar
Ex: Cruel? What's not true about it? Is GingerTea somehow less weird (not bad, just weird) than you are, or does Garth NOT happily wear his particular eccentricities like a badge of honor, or is Mike somehow NOT a walking Psych thesis waiting to happen?
I'm sorry if you took it differently, but it wasn't meant to be derogatory, hence the smiley==>
:D-->
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the word of God..."
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The Skeptical Texan
Folks,
I've been reading posts here for a while and never quite understood why you expressed such loathing for Mike. I figured everybody but me must know Mike's true identity, and disliked him personally ... otherwise, how could you so spiteful?
From his posts, Mike just seemed like a misguided soul, seriously adrift a sinking vessel in the uncharted waters of WayWorld. Having some sympathy for the mentally ill and mentally challenged, compassion seemed the more appropriate response to his rantings.
And, anyway, the best way to shut the guy up would be to ignore him completely ... just never respond to anything.
But now, Mikey has responded to MY posting, and I realize that the guy has a talent for punching hot buttons. Here's what he said:
*****************************************************************
The Skeptical Texan,
You wrote: ?Yeah, it all came down to money and sex ...but ironically, CF&S was mostly about money.?
From the number of times I saw that class run, I think TWI lost money on it. It was video taped twice, once in B&W and then in color. VERY COSTLY. It was run very infrequently.
You then wrote: ?I just can't imagine why anybody spend their time defending the infallibility of VPW's writings on this site, but I suppose some folks really do spit into the wind.?
Like your guess on the money, your imagination needs help. That?s why I post here, to help armchair generals like you. You?ll never know why I do what I do until you come back to PFAL and master it. Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither has it entered the imagination of any man, the things that God has prepared for them that love Him.
To love God is easy. Jesus quoted Deut.6 when he pegged the greatest commandment. So, how could those natural men in the OT love God? Look at the verses following that quote early in the chapter. It says master the written Word. We never mastered PFAL like Deut 6 outlines. Until this mastery is undertaken, you can?t imagine what God put in PFAL and why I post this here.
*****************************************************************
The man is not just deranged; he's an idiot. (Oops, that's not compassionate. I hope he really has left this thread forever.)
VERY COSTLY? FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, the production values of CFS sucked so bad that if TWI could not possibly have spent more money producing this sorry class than it generated in tuition and ABS taken up every session. It's simple arithmetic. Remember that distribution costs were negligible as the classes were sold and administered by volunteer labor working for free. (Of course, after kickbacks to VPW and friends, the accounts could have looked as though it was a loser. But I don't distinguish between TWI revenue generation and VPW's personal corruption in handling TWI funds.)
But the citation of DUETERONOMY 6 takes the cake in this context. Our oh-so-ever-enlightened Mike cites Duetronomy 6 to demonstrate the divine inspiration of VPW's PFAL.
Dueteronomy 6 follows the enumeration of the 10 Commandments in chapter 5. I surmise that Mike doesn't believe that they apply in any way to our day and time but, regardless of his vain reckoning, they still have relevance. Duetoronomy 6:2 is particularly relevant in this context:
"That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged."
Let's see did his holiness VPW ever violate any of these commandments; say, perhaps, ADULTERY.
I don't have first-hand experience, but others of given their testimony.
BUT I DO KNOW THIS: HIS DAYS WERE NOT PROLONGED! VPW didn't make it to the three-score and ten, which the Scripture clearly states is normative.
That's a fact Jack ... your MOG died of cancer before 70. If he believe in VPW's divine inspiration, both the cause and timing of his death should cause Mike to reconsider.
Face it man, the man is dead as a doornail, his "ministry" is in shambles, and his writings were stolen from the works of others. PFAL? ... don't waste my time.
SkepTex
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shazdancer
Hey, everyone,
Whoa, 15 pages, must be a hot topic, ya think?
Just a few reminiscences from taking that class...
-- the first time I took CFS, it seemed like every time a picture of the black couple came on, Wierwille would make a remark, like "Isn't that WONderful? Isn't she beYOOtiful?" etc. It reminded me of his comments in "The Way Living In Love" where he said he was a bigot for many years following his brother's death, because he was killed by a black man. Over-compensation, perhaps? In later screenings, the comments were mostly edited out. I guess I wasn't the only one who noticed.
-- the slang terms. There were some I'd never heard of, and I lived in NYC. I was married to a former Navy man, and there were some HE'd never heard of. Many I've forgotten, having never heard them since. VP's assertion that we needed to hear them so we wouldn't flinch if they were used by a couple in counseling was just so much bunk it is pitiful. Gee, I'll remember this list just in case I counsel trailor trash, Vic, thanks. Because I couldn't possibly figure out what they were talking about without this list. Yeah, if VPW had wanted to desensitize us with this list, it certainly wasn't for counseling purposes -- except when HE was doing the "counseling."
-- Was it Plots who said that it seemed like Wierwille was just sharing his personal sexual preferences as if that is what every man wants? Agreed, and ick!
-- At the time, I was engaged to be married. My intended and I were worried that we were outside of God's will, and really listened to hear from Vic about what the Bible had to say about sex outside of marriage. (Somehow, I just couldn't look it up for myself?!) He said nothing, until the staged "question and answer" segment, where someone in his studio audience asked about it. I cannot recall the exact quote, but Vic said that the Word just wasn't specific about that. Huh? Looking back now, how convenient...
Personal note to Dot and Raf -- do you believe me now?
Mike,
Disgusting. But not surprising.
Dear Ginger,
Glad you saw Mike's posts here. I had heard something similar in a couple of Mike's earliest posts. Raf had heard more in a private email from Mike. I would suggest to you that sometimes it is better not to be polite to people bearing hurtful thoughts and opinions, as it makes it sound like the abuse is not a big deal. I have heard you be firm with others when you thought they were overstepping personal boundaries. (At least, I thought you were firm -- sometimes, your posts are so heavy on the jargon and light on the facts you are addressing that I have trouble understanding your point.) Likewise, I see no problem in being firm about what we disagree with in Mike's posts. It probably shouldn't lapse into personal attacks, but I think it is understandable at times. And the man who has been first to apologize for any lapse has always been Raf, while the last has always been Mike. That speaks volumes to me.
Regards,
Shaz
PS to Paw -- thanks.
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Trefor Heywood
johniam
It's a really big IF. I always ask people, and they are never able to anwser, why Jesus never expressed an "opinion" on the subject. Considering how "important" it is supposed to be it was hardly high on his list of priorities.
I also ask why, if it is so "perverted" is it always found in a percentage of the human and even the aninmal population? If God was so worried about it why would people have this orientation which they are born with? I have great problems with a God who allows somebody to be made a particular way and then shoots them down for being what they are. This idea of "perversion" is based upon the philosophical misconstruct of that is termed the "natural law". But that can only work if only one thing is empirically "natural" as a yardstick to judge by. This is not the case - what is "natural" for a heterosexual is not the same for a homosexual and it could be argued that to try to be the opposite of one's nature is a perversion.
You are entitled to your belief but it is not really based upon the Bible but on your contruct of God and you therefore read it a certain way, and not surprisingly therefore find that God agrees with you, just as we found that God agreed with VPW in CFAS or any other class.
"It aint necessarily so, it aint necessarily so, the things that you liable to read in the Bible, it aint necessarily so."
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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Dot Matrix
Ex
You said:
You are probably right, sometimes I wondered what made VPW think the way he did -- before he lost his conscience. (IMO)
What would bring a man to such a place to do what he did?
Childhood trauma?
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 23, 2003 at 8:53.]
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Zixar
Excathedra: I owe you a BIG apology. For some reason, it appears that I stopped reading your original post at the slash mark. (i.e., I only read "SOMETIMES i feel like the person with the most "out there" thoughts..." and missed the rest of it.)
That's all I keyed that stupid remark off of, and I see now that had I paid more attention to ALL of what you wrote, I would have seen that my remark was in fact wildly inappropriate in the whole context.
My humble apologies,
Zixar
(p.s. Garth is still a weirdo. Just ask him.)
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the word of God..."
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Dot Matrix
Tex
I know how you felt
"From his posts, Mike just seemed like a misguided soul, seriously adrift a sinking vessel in the uncharted waters of Way World. Having some sympathy for the mentally ill and mentally challenged, compassion seemed the more appropriate response to his rantings."
I kept trying to be nice to him or show concern for him for obvious "unbalanced" reasons
People were yelling "Get Help" "You are sick"
I asked him if VPW hurt him and maybe he should go talk to someone. He flipped out....
Have you met his side kick (which many of us believe is him) Sea spray?
Two things you can count on when the going gets tough he e-mails people to rally support. Back then his supporters had not even READ his posts, but he pushed their sympathy buttons and they would come on and post a little support post (unaware of the context or horrid things he said) He is a button pusher. He pushed some of the gentle hearts for support behind the scenes -- but then here on the forum he goes after people with maliciousness.
He will come on the forum and say how much support he has behind the scenes -- how people contact him and support his work.... Perhaps they listened the first three times but most people catch on to the "craziness" by then and back off.
So, first he will e-mail the tender hearted people for support (but I think they have caught on) Then, Sea spray shows up to defend him.
He is a professional button pusher. After all, he was groomed by the BEST and has continued to STUDY the master for the past what? 16 years?
Most people study criminals, i.e. Jeffrey Dalhmer, Gacey.... to learn how to CATCH them and STOP them. MIKE studies VPW to keep his legacy going, to continue to push the sick doctrines - i.e. sex is cultural and if he touched a woman it was a blessing not adultery.
I have to give it to him - he is a master at sniffing out what bothers others. He also has pegged whom to go to for sympathy and tries to hide behind the sweetest people. (He has lost some of them because they caught on)
Your new hasn't he tried to contact you and get you in his support stable? He will size you up quickly and use it for pain.
I have never seen a more unwelcomed person stick around so long. It is like an unwanted dinner guest who will just not go home.
When he began to say the supportive things for "sex with believers" being our cultural problem and going through the Bible for support I felt like I was talking to VPW again on the coach. Or those "inner circle" people who held fast to the teachings of the master.....
There was no difference between touching an elbow or a breast -- It is your thinking of it.
When I laid out some word to VPW on adultery his response was "What so ever things are pure...think on those things" He said it was MY THINKING evil is what made it evil.
He also told a small group at Emporia one night to teach their children about their bodies, "you can brush their nipple with your hand and show them how it hardens. You can show them not to be ashamed of their body reactions" Then he shared about the African Tribe where the Father broke the hymen of the daughters to get them experienced in sex to prepare them for marriage -- he thought it to be beautiful.
VPW had already let me see his dark side. Sitting there I thought OH MY GOD, this is subtle but he is teaching this group that it is beautiful to teach your daughters how to have sex, it is just not accepted in our culture! He was standing behind his sex problems and setting us up to have sex with our godly "family" as well as the earthly one.
I have not heard it so pure and so believed until Mike started to spew those theories all over again.
PS Those of you who wish you confronted VPW about his sex policies? The things Mike said on this thread would have been what VPW would have said to you -- then you would have realized what made VPW tick, you would have been shocked as you were here. If you have seen the MIKE you have seen the Weirwille.
By the way, you are a great arm chair General!!!! smirk!
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
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Dot Matrix
Exousia said
No, he was not attractive. Imagine my surprise when a naked old fat man sat before me naked in the coach thinking that would be a turn on!
But some girls like power and they felt "special". Some girls said "NO" like I think Sunesis and I did. Some girls were frozen in fear and shock (they were little teenagers) and some were given drinks and others drinks with drugs in them.
He took it anyway he could get it. He was a serial rapist. (IMO)
Thanks for your love.
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
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WeWereScammed
Dot,
Thanks for your postings.
Clearly VPW was a major FREAKSHOW.
People, in and out of TWI need to know this.
Don't some of those tribes drink blood also? Since when do we look to primal tribal customs for insight into Godly lifetyles.
THIS GUY WAS A FREAKSHOW - Innies wake up. There are those among you, and leading you, who buy into this FREAKOLOGY.
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Raf
Shaz,
Thanks for so many kind words, and for a longer memory than my own. When you wrote "do you believe me now?" I didn't understand the question. Could you clarify if you get a chance?
Raf
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