I do not believe in rape as a legitimate test. I think many other tests could be wrong too. I never said everything that went on was correct. I?m just offering unthought of, and undiscussed scenarios.
I see that no one really addressed any points I made. The belief in our Western moral traditions
I see that TWI-2 tactics of banning what you don?t like has been imported to this forum by many. How many times has Z set up a poll to have me banned? How many threads to ban me have been started by others?
If you don?t like the message kill the messenger.
Dot, your tactics of having and attorney and a shrink look at this is VERY TWI like.
You folks are proving that the abuses that occurred are inherent in the human psyche, not TWI or VPW originated at all. You all have the same potential to abuse when you see a threat.
The threat you see in me is in yourselves. Don?t post your addresses is cute. As if someonw was about to do it! Duhhhhhh!
I have not tried to hide my identity at all here. I am making myself, by expressing my opinions, a target to those who have expressed or harbored mayhem here. I?ve seen two mayhem expressions here already. What spirit is behind that I wonder? How many others listen to mayhem spirits here and don?t post it?
Dot, you forgot to post, in your summary of some of my posts, the possibility I posted that some of the testing could be totally wrong. I used the word sin. Make sure your suit experts see that. With your present disposition I wouldn?t be surprised if you edit that out. I?m also sure you won?t show them, and/or they wont have time to read all my posts to get the balancing information. You will surely NOT have them anal-ize ALL 1600 posts I did in this GS context, and even if you do they wont have time to read them. They will surely have an out-of-context view of my posts.
As far as my intractability, it?s only in some areas, just like everyone here has some areas in their life they have locked onto. For one, the traditional blue nose Western uptight sexual prohibitions, are held onto as absolute unchallengeable truth.
I threw out a large handful of Biblical references that no one wants to touch.
Close your eyes all you want, but they are still there posted.
Ban me form GS, and they are still there.
Delete all my posts, and they will show up somewhere else.
Kill or maim me and Jesus Christ will deal with you.
These challenges to your religion of hate will not go away.
[This message was edited by Mike on September 22, 2003 at 14:25.]
The more I read Mike's posts, the more I see him as a guy who reads these threads and thinks, "Now what is the most outrageous thing I can post that will get the most people fired up so that they'll respond to me." Kind of like a two-year old screaming for attention.
Nobody could really be that much of a moron. Could they?
That original sin number was as over-the-top as the rest of twi's practices (even abs'ing from twigs in private residences, etc.)
What did they really do with all 'info' people filled out?
I can imagine it came in handy to access members ~ of course ~ in the Way's way, which was out-of-bounds...like everything else pretty much was.
It's an odd thing, letting people have intimate details...people you don't really know...not REALLY...not well enough, for sure.
Then to pay to sit thru classes that were embarrassing ~ to say the least ~ if you had any boundaries, you know?
It was good for vp & co. to reduce and push back members' boundaries, I think.
White Dove,
I totally understood what you meant.
This is a soft area tread in, for good reason, and I'm glad you had the patience and were concerned enough to hang in there while your post was in question...till it was seen for it's merit in the light it was written.
Johniam,
What are you thinking?
Are you reacting to homosexuals (lumping all together as ~ what you said) because of the harm done in the past (I'm assuming it was male)?
Or is it from your belief system?
The reason I ask is because if it's due to the former, then it may be a sensitive matter from your victimization.
Lots of people who experienced sexual assault/abuse have anxiety problems ~ post traumatic stress ~ that affects even their outlook, sometimes permanently, but not always (thankfully) towards the sex (same) as the abuser.
Some marriages have been destroyed when a spouse becomes a victim of some perp, and because of being traumatized ~ cannot be imtimate with the other spouse any longer...or for years w/o sensing strong negative reactions. Not that they distrust their husbands because of what some other man did, but because the violation devestated them on an intimate 'contact' level...they can feel helplessness...so, understandably, it takes awhile to mend the soul and regroup. Many marriages last thru it all, too.
Women who were abused by men can, and many do, recover and live happily in their existence with men ~ w/o fearing or distrustful, in an anxious manner about men as a whole.
Anyway, if that's what is going on...I hope it gets better. If it isn't, I still hope you feel better.
Mike...dammit Mike.
Debating in discussions is one thing...conflicts, they happen all the time after all, this is only words on a screen. You can't get a true picture of anyone here by computer...even with a picture...because that doesn't give you what you need to know to be informed enough to make an accurate judgement
call on lots of levels.
The part where you are getting flack now...well part of a part of that is not DEBATABLE!
We are dealing with people who have been violated ~ and in the case where any of these victims are concerned, especially the ones who are given 'safe harbor' here...YOUR debating is HANDS OFF!
Not just you, I'm sure anyone.
Don't you see why this is not appropriate material to debate ~ especialy under the circumstances where vpw is concerned and the victims are present and accounted for?
You cannot help these people.
They don't want your help.
They will take care of themselves without your assistance.
See, victims will get the right-of-way here...#1...because of the main page ~ why it is not an affair ~ this GS has a definate stand on.
You can't come around and mess with their heads ~ whether it seems fair to you or not.
And that is what you are doing when you get in their faces about how they should view/feel about their victimization.
You aren't qualified to do that.
You shouldn't attempt what you do not understand either...from a therapuetic p.o.v.
A few tried that crap before...blah, blah this-n-that..get on with this, get over that ~ they were talking out of their heads...it doesn't work like that.
You need to take a hike with this vpw & the victims nonsense about what's best for them because you are in over your head and it's not fair to them.
Go take that discussion someplace where victims aren't sensitive/exposed to it...like the private topics...if you want to 'get into something' that you know will offend their and some of our sensibilities.
I don't want to chase you off.
I think you need GS.
I don't think GS needs to M&A people as a solution either.
Enough of that crap has gone on and that's why there are Gresespots to begin with.
You gotta wise up on this one.
You have enough problems with your p.o.v. and I'm not saying that you are responsible for the behaviors of others...because I can't say that as I know better...but you can leave these areas alone since you cannot cure it...you didn't create and...and you are not going to control it.
Let it go ~
Other Guys have learned to here.
If someone hurt your child, terrorized them or abused them...would you want someone bringing them over to the house?
No...
But they are here GT!
That's right Mike.
But they don't have to sit on his lap.
Quit forcing this crap on them.
You aren't a councellor.
You aren't aware of their perspective nor are you intune with that experience.
Sound unfair?
So what.
Deal with it.
You'll find less problems if you heed this advice.
Sorry, but you'll see what I'm saying another time. Down the road perhaps.
Now, can we go back to the discussion? Or is it a done deal that we don't go back? Its too bad because I was realizing things of what I had picked up through the years. Why let one person ruin that?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
quote: I think we ALL need to apologize to God from walking away from what HE wrought in PFAL
This is a ridiculous statement even for Mike.
God should be apologising to us for allowing us to be so spiritiually, physically and mentally, misled and screwed up by TWI. God wraught ZILCH in PFAL, it was all the work (and plagiarised at that) of one Victor Paul Wierwille. Get it in your head Mike:
VPW is NOT God!
PFAL is NOT God or God's work!
We have absolutely nothing to apoligise for.
quote:In Bible times, where the climate and clothing were more conducive, the custom was for men to grasp each other?s balls and VERY GENTLY squeeze. In the KJV this is written as putting a hand under the thigh.
This was obviously a MUCH greater gesture of trust than handshakes!
How would our culture deal with such a custom? Condemnation as evil?
Well I took a class on orientalisms and THAT one was never mentioned! The only close thing I can think of was the Roman method of testimony - they swore with their hands on their balls hence how we get the word TESTimony from TESTES. I doubt very much that the clothing was "condusive".
As you know, I'm gay and even I would not like anybody grabbing mine without permission!
Ginger thanks for your kind words and your wise ones for Mike.
Vickles The pictures are in the video session 6 seg 12 unless it was a live camp pre 74 or they did not show some segments of the class which would be hard to believe. Since instructers followed everything by the letter. I suspect it is just time and loss of memory.
Your post quickly after mine demands this one response. I realize that some of the feelings here are driven not by broken Western culture but by strong and legitimate parental concerns for the young.
I hear your criticism of me above and will ponder it deeply. Your soft voice is an example to all here.
I will also permanently ban myself from this thread so that it can be conducted in greater peace. If someone wants to discuss a point I made here they know where to find me.
This is my parting passage of peace. It's something I posted months ago, with slight modification.
That said, I'd like to say something to the parents of young children and teenagers. I've noticed that as a general rule, those who were loose and sexually permissive during the 70's preAIDS era, are often the MOST diligent to quantify and demand obedience to all sorts of stringent new attitudes about sex.
I think this is good and proper.
Parents who experienced the 70's KNOW how ruthless men can be towards their young daughter, and these parents are doing the right thing in protecting their precious gift from God. These boomer parents of young boys KNOW what sexual monsters they can become when not in the house. Young boys nowadays are subject to media training that can bring out the worst in them if parents don't diligently provide a counter offensive to stave off the media brainwashing. These parents must watch the environment for sexual predators in protecting their family, and my hat is off to you all.
On this GS discussion board lots of past events from the sexually loose 70's come up. I can see you parents having lots of buttons pushed by my posts. Please believe me that there is NOWHERE in my intentions a desire to go back to THAT part of the good old days.
I have considered leaving this board several times as I see my motives in the sexual areas misconstrued. I feel greatly for the formerly fast lane parents who want their children to grow up as far from the fast lane, as far from the sex freeway itself, as possible.
Far from being a possible threat to parents here, I would like to cheer them on in the raising of children. I have no experience in this work, but I see it's got to be awesomely difficult. If my posting has made your job more difficult, I sincerely apologize. That has never been my intention.
I've seen their task, how difficult it must be to shield youngsters from all the sexual nightmares out there. Some parents here have not just read about how crazy sex can get, they've BEEN there in the TWI sexual fracas. I can see how it's necessary for you to squelch any voice around your kids, who in any way, might be promoting the sex liberty problems of the not-so-good old days.
Now I'm NOT promoting sexual liberty as a part of coming back to PFAL at all, NOT ONE BIT AT ALL.
But I also understand how my posts LOOK LIKE THAT at times to diligent parents on the lookout for potential threats to their young treasures. I want to adjust the way we do things here so that parents need not be alarmed.
So I?m taking my break now and it?s going to be a permanent break from this thread. If this is a relief to parents, great. If more relief is needed, I'm open to discussion on this.
[This message was edited by Mike on September 22, 2003 at 14:33.]
"we keep thinking we can talk sense to him. Give it up! We tried long enough...it ain't gonna happen"
GREAT POINT
I agree we do not have to play with him.
And I agree I do not want Paw bashed and stated so, but I think you were right that Mike is a TROLL. Intended to be one or just so sick it comes naturally.
We can stop playing and we can also let Paw know if we think someone is ruining his site.
Wayfernot saw this months ago when she tried to get Mike to stop pushing his pro TWi diatribe.
Ginger
It is not like a TWI M&A. This is a X-TWI site, not a PRO TWI site and although he has been allowed to visit he continues to POUND us with the doctrine we left. He brings the PRO sickness here relentlessly. We have told him to stop. We have said we are not interested.
This is beyond the M&A TWI stuff. (In TWI it was a witch hunt and trumped up charges.)
There has been people who have bent over backwards to walk Mike away from his cult thinking. He is NOT going to change. He is NOT going to consider their very clear presentations. Raf, Zix, WW, VL, Geoy and others very well versed in scripture have been over and over it. He is NOT here to share in our journey OUT. He is here to push us back into "the cult" whether actually the cult or just their doctrines of bondage and perversion.
The threads have always had disagreements. But with Mike it is all about Going back to PFAL and VPW. IT is an OLD message and really not what this site is suppose to reflect. (to my understanding)
He keeps trying to herd us into his camp over and over again. Not in talking about things logically or even emotionally but all from "PFAL will help you."
This is his feeding ground for his odd ministry (illness) which nobody is interested in.
Whoever wants to stop talking to him - like Krys says then let's stop.
Whoever thinks he is marring the site with his pro PFAL crap and is sick of it, let Paw know.
Whoever wants to talk with him - talk.
But I think to those who have had it, we should tell PAW AND ignore him. It is everybody's individual call and their choice.
Then, after Paw hears from us he can decide if this is what he wants on the site. Pro Way stuff that may retard healing or not.
From what I have heard he is e-mailing people and laughing about the reactions here! He wants to cause PAIN.
I do think you have good personal advice to him.
But I think he needs to go. I have no power to do that, but that is my opinion (as well as others who have contacted me). If he stays then I think ignoring him is best, but there are some very SICK things presented that are difficult to ignore.
Thanks for your post.
I do wonder though why he is speaking about a time out and listening to you PRIOR to your post. Have you read the thread? Or did he private topic you and you came on to calm things down?
Because he pretty much told EXXIE that Uncle Harry touched her to make her a better person.... A test...Something to break the ego in corps training. (paraphrase)
So, no he is not responsible for other people's recations BUT he is responsible for TWISTED thinking that is hurtful and sick. To not respond almost feels like I would be condoning it.
Thanks again for speaking to him because it is hands off when it comes to some of this stuff. But you said it better.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 22, 2003 at 15:10.]
The forcible suppression of unpopular views produces the impression that no adequate argument can be found with which to refute them.
- VPW
I came on this thread because I wanted to candidly express my opinion and experiences with the CFS class like Rottie asked for. At this point, if anyone really believes Mike is the only one who had anything to do with the thread's derailment, then you probably also believe Oswald acted alone in killing JFK.
The next course of action is not to ban anybody. I recall a thread on Waydale that went south like this. It was about music or way prod and 2 particular posters ended up in quite a cat fight. After enough dust had settled, the moderator knocked the thread down from 120 posts to 80 some. Some posts on this thread need killin'. That is the extent Paw should get involved. IMO.
I do not know how you and Raf have dealt with this for so long. I kept walking away.
But the latest statements he made WERE the whole crux of VPW's beliefs that touching people in a sexual way somehow healed them, set them free.
That thinking is what killed TWI and the hearts of MANY women, I could not walk away from this one. I admire your ability to keep debating, but it might be time for me to stop.
Trefor- Big thumbs up for you!
Scammie - yaeh, boohoo - let's throw a party.
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 22, 2003 at 15:12.]
I don't think it was about derailment this thread is pretty much a train wreck by now.
It's about the unkind things said about Dot EX and others it was over the top and without any sorrow. Two days ago I was on the hotseat not because of a purposeful comment but because of a misunderstanding. I felt bad and did something about it. Mike shows no remorse for the hurt he caused thats the difference.
Ginger: I was answering Trefor's post. It wasn't really a reaction, but it was more from my belief system. As stated, no human point of view can condemn homosexuality or any other sin. However, IF the bible really is God's "opinion" of this or any other situation, then God, who made the human body, the heart, it's appetites, etc. most definitely has the authority to condemn homosexuality as perverted. I believe it is, and He does.
This may be hard for some here to comprehend, but my time in TWI did bring about much healing for me especially related to sexual stuff. CFS was part of it, PFAL was part of it, there were just way too many people in TWI to put in any box, good or bad.
I believe Mike when he says that focussing on PFAL healed his hurt about the breakup of TWI. I also believe Dot, Excath, Valerie, and others when they say VPW was a pervert even though that wasn't my experience. I admit there's a part of me that does NOT want to picture him doing that stuff. It's disturbing finding out that this man I respected for those years was doing that. VP was never directly involved in my life, but his ministry and people who served it were in often a good way. It gave me an atmosphere where I could forget about dope and sexual hurts. Haven't had any pain in a long time from that.
Everybody here has posted off topic and/or derailed a thread. If Rottie had titled the thread "Hey, who really hates the CFS class?" then it would be off topic for some of us to post what we posted, but she left it open for all views, pro and con. The only way to guarantee no derailment is to have Paw get really legalistic and hire people to scan the threads and if somebody is off topic they get a warning email and the second time they get a demerit, and finally they get banned. I don't want that!
White Dove wrote the most heartfelt love note I ever got. We talked back and forth getting the backstory on what we meant by what we said.
It was a great time in sharing and getting to know each other.
Zix- I am laughing to death here!
I think Raf said it best on another site:
quote: Mike,
In case you haven't caught on, I don't give a flying fig how you "grade" me. You are not my teacher. You are an idolatrous ostrich who's mistaken his backside for the ground.
Clear?
Jon I am not blaming Mike for a derailment, the thread went where it went and I helped in that.
I am suggesting his constant PUSHING pro TWI thinking, perversions and bondage is what we all left. Some folks still hold on to some beliefs some do not. It is all okay. But to promote the perversions and bondage on a X-TWI site (not thread ALL the threadS) is not very welcome. You know the difference. You may have different opinions than I do or Ex does but it is not about promoting bondage or improper sexual touching as a "test".
Then, there was the slight detour in the homosexual area. Not what I am talking about.
I am speaking of a confluence of TWI promotions.
Thanks I just read your post, you get what I am saying. Thanks for your heart and compassion.
Before I knew VPW was a sex abuser, I thought the CF&S class was to get people to realize that you did not have to be puritanical in order to be a good christian - i.e. have sex only for procreation, only use the missionary position, etc. As most of TWI were hippies or exhippies, that was probably a relief. Most born-again groups were labeled as "strict", puritanical, etc. I thought the original sin is masturbation teaching sounded "cultish" but of course thought the rest of TWI was aokay for awhile. As far as homosexuality, premarital sex, even "willing" extramarital sex, you might try a look at another website that has ideas similar to VPWs??? Only they are very out in the open and I assume they don't believe in abuse, rape, etc. Thought maybe they do, I havent' read it thoroughly. They have interesting things to say about Bible and sex, and the puritanism that developed over the centuries. Mainly it was ownership of females that influenced the puritanical attitudes.
Was VPWs adultery the #1 thing that bothers most people or the coercion, abuse??
I can't help but think to each his/her own...at this time in my life.....of course I don't believe in abuse, but to each his/her own....mainly because when you try to be something you're not for a religious ideal....the religious ideal turns out to be false.....TWI version of "best" is such and such and then top leaders don't do it.
[This message was edited by imablvr? on September 22, 2003 at 16:04.]
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WELCOME BACK ROTTIE DOG LOOK wHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LEAVe US ALONE FOR THE WEEKEND.
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Mike
I do not believe in rape as a legitimate test. I think many other tests could be wrong too. I never said everything that went on was correct. I?m just offering unthought of, and undiscussed scenarios.
I see that no one really addressed any points I made. The belief in our Western moral traditions
I see that TWI-2 tactics of banning what you don?t like has been imported to this forum by many. How many times has Z set up a poll to have me banned? How many threads to ban me have been started by others?
If you don?t like the message kill the messenger.
Dot, your tactics of having and attorney and a shrink look at this is VERY TWI like.
You folks are proving that the abuses that occurred are inherent in the human psyche, not TWI or VPW originated at all. You all have the same potential to abuse when you see a threat.
The threat you see in me is in yourselves. Don?t post your addresses is cute. As if someonw was about to do it! Duhhhhhh!
I have not tried to hide my identity at all here. I am making myself, by expressing my opinions, a target to those who have expressed or harbored mayhem here. I?ve seen two mayhem expressions here already. What spirit is behind that I wonder? How many others listen to mayhem spirits here and don?t post it?
Dot, you forgot to post, in your summary of some of my posts, the possibility I posted that some of the testing could be totally wrong. I used the word sin. Make sure your suit experts see that. With your present disposition I wouldn?t be surprised if you edit that out. I?m also sure you won?t show them, and/or they wont have time to read all my posts to get the balancing information. You will surely NOT have them anal-ize ALL 1600 posts I did in this GS context, and even if you do they wont have time to read them. They will surely have an out-of-context view of my posts.
As far as my intractability, it?s only in some areas, just like everyone here has some areas in their life they have locked onto. For one, the traditional blue nose Western uptight sexual prohibitions, are held onto as absolute unchallengeable truth.
I threw out a large handful of Biblical references that no one wants to touch.
Close your eyes all you want, but they are still there posted.
Ban me form GS, and they are still there.
Delete all my posts, and they will show up somewhere else.
Kill or maim me and Jesus Christ will deal with you.
These challenges to your religion of hate will not go away.
[This message was edited by Mike on September 22, 2003 at 14:25.]
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Steve!
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Zixar
Here we go with Mike's martyr complex again...
-->
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the word of God..."
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Pirate1974
The more I read Mike's posts, the more I see him as a guy who reads these threads and thinks, "Now what is the most outrageous thing I can post that will get the most people fired up so that they'll respond to me." Kind of like a two-year old screaming for attention.
Nobody could really be that much of a moron. Could they?
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Mike
I have a lot of respect for Ginger Tea.
When she says ?Time Out!? like she just did on another thread, I hear it very loudly, because of the soft voice she uses.
I?m taking a break.
You can read her post near the end of this URL:
http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...8926084114&p=14
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Ginger Tea
..sucked.
It was uncomfortable.
At times, in places, very inappropriate.
A waste of time & money.
It was about money, sex, and ego, think.
That original sin number was as over-the-top as the rest of twi's practices (even abs'ing from twigs in private residences, etc.)
What did they really do with all 'info' people filled out?
I can imagine it came in handy to access members ~ of course ~ in the Way's way, which was out-of-bounds...like everything else pretty much was.
It's an odd thing, letting people have intimate details...people you don't really know...not REALLY...not well enough, for sure.
Then to pay to sit thru classes that were embarrassing ~ to say the least ~ if you had any boundaries, you know?
It was good for vp & co. to reduce and push back members' boundaries, I think.
White Dove,
I totally understood what you meant.
This is a soft area tread in, for good reason, and I'm glad you had the patience and were concerned enough to hang in there while your post was in question...till it was seen for it's merit in the light it was written.
Johniam,
What are you thinking?
Are you reacting to homosexuals (lumping all together as ~ what you said) because of the harm done in the past (I'm assuming it was male)?
Or is it from your belief system?
The reason I ask is because if it's due to the former, then it may be a sensitive matter from your victimization.
Lots of people who experienced sexual assault/abuse have anxiety problems ~ post traumatic stress ~ that affects even their outlook, sometimes permanently, but not always (thankfully) towards the sex (same) as the abuser.
Some marriages have been destroyed when a spouse becomes a victim of some perp, and because of being traumatized ~ cannot be imtimate with the other spouse any longer...or for years w/o sensing strong negative reactions. Not that they distrust their husbands because of what some other man did, but because the violation devestated them on an intimate 'contact' level...they can feel helplessness...so, understandably, it takes awhile to mend the soul and regroup. Many marriages last thru it all, too.
Women who were abused by men can, and many do, recover and live happily in their existence with men ~ w/o fearing or distrustful, in an anxious manner about men as a whole.
Anyway, if that's what is going on...I hope it gets better. If it isn't, I still hope you feel better.
Mike...dammit Mike.
Debating in discussions is one thing...conflicts, they happen all the time after all, this is only words on a screen. You can't get a true picture of anyone here by computer...even with a picture...because that doesn't give you what you need to know to be informed enough to make an accurate judgement
call on lots of levels.
The part where you are getting flack now...well part of a part of that is not DEBATABLE!
We are dealing with people who have been violated ~ and in the case where any of these victims are concerned, especially the ones who are given 'safe harbor' here...YOUR debating is HANDS OFF!
Not just you, I'm sure anyone.
Don't you see why this is not appropriate material to debate ~ especialy under the circumstances where vpw is concerned and the victims are present and accounted for?
You cannot help these people.
They don't want your help.
They will take care of themselves without your assistance.
See, victims will get the right-of-way here...#1...because of the main page ~ why it is not an affair ~ this GS has a definate stand on.
You can't come around and mess with their heads ~ whether it seems fair to you or not.
And that is what you are doing when you get in their faces about how they should view/feel about their victimization.
You aren't qualified to do that.
You shouldn't attempt what you do not understand either...from a therapuetic p.o.v.
A few tried that crap before...blah, blah this-n-that..get on with this, get over that ~ they were talking out of their heads...it doesn't work like that.
You need to take a hike with this vpw & the victims nonsense about what's best for them because you are in over your head and it's not fair to them.
Go take that discussion someplace where victims aren't sensitive/exposed to it...like the private topics...if you want to 'get into something' that you know will offend their and some of our sensibilities.
I don't want to chase you off.
I think you need GS.
I don't think GS needs to M&A people as a solution either.
Enough of that crap has gone on and that's why there are Gresespots to begin with.
You gotta wise up on this one.
You have enough problems with your p.o.v. and I'm not saying that you are responsible for the behaviors of others...because I can't say that as I know better...but you can leave these areas alone since you cannot cure it...you didn't create and...and you are not going to control it.
Let it go ~
Other Guys have learned to here.
If someone hurt your child, terrorized them or abused them...would you want someone bringing them over to the house?
No...
But they are here GT!
That's right Mike.
But they don't have to sit on his lap.
Quit forcing this crap on them.
You aren't a councellor.
You aren't aware of their perspective nor are you intune with that experience.
Sound unfair?
So what.
Deal with it.
You'll find less problems if you heed this advice.
Sorry, but you'll see what I'm saying another time. Down the road perhaps.
You can't 'go there'.
Ginger
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vickles
Thanks ginger!!!!!!!!!
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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vickles
Now, can we go back to the discussion? Or is it a done deal that we don't go back? Its too bad because I was realizing things of what I had picked up through the years. Why let one person ruin that?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Trefor Heywood
Mike wrote:
This is a ridiculous statement even for Mike.
God should be apologising to us for allowing us to be so spiritiually, physically and mentally, misled and screwed up by TWI. God wraught ZILCH in PFAL, it was all the work (and plagiarised at that) of one Victor Paul Wierwille. Get it in your head Mike:
VPW is NOT God!
PFAL is NOT God or God's work!
We have absolutely nothing to apoligise for.
Well I took a class on orientalisms and THAT one was never mentioned! The only close thing I can think of was the Roman method of testimony - they swore with their hands on their balls hence how we get the word TESTimony from TESTES. I doubt very much that the clothing was "condusive".
As you know, I'm gay and even I would not like anybody grabbing mine without permission!
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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Raf
Dang. I know Mike's in for a hard time when GINGER is telling him off.
Shoot, my work here is done.
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WhiteDove
Ginger thanks for your kind words and your wise ones for Mike.
Vickles The pictures are in the video session 6 seg 12 unless it was a live camp pre 74 or they did not show some segments of the class which would be hard to believe. Since instructers followed everything by the letter. I suspect it is just time and loss of memory.
That would be my Take.
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
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Mike
Dear Ginger,
I mean it about taking a break.
Your post quickly after mine demands this one response. I realize that some of the feelings here are driven not by broken Western culture but by strong and legitimate parental concerns for the young.
I hear your criticism of me above and will ponder it deeply. Your soft voice is an example to all here.
I will also permanently ban myself from this thread so that it can be conducted in greater peace. If someone wants to discuss a point I made here they know where to find me.
This is my parting passage of peace. It's something I posted months ago, with slight modification.
***********************************************************
That said, I'd like to say something to the parents of young children and teenagers. I've noticed that as a general rule, those who were loose and sexually permissive during the 70's preAIDS era, are often the MOST diligent to quantify and demand obedience to all sorts of stringent new attitudes about sex.
I think this is good and proper.
Parents who experienced the 70's KNOW how ruthless men can be towards their young daughter, and these parents are doing the right thing in protecting their precious gift from God. These boomer parents of young boys KNOW what sexual monsters they can become when not in the house. Young boys nowadays are subject to media training that can bring out the worst in them if parents don't diligently provide a counter offensive to stave off the media brainwashing. These parents must watch the environment for sexual predators in protecting their family, and my hat is off to you all.
On this GS discussion board lots of past events from the sexually loose 70's come up. I can see you parents having lots of buttons pushed by my posts. Please believe me that there is NOWHERE in my intentions a desire to go back to THAT part of the good old days.
I have considered leaving this board several times as I see my motives in the sexual areas misconstrued. I feel greatly for the formerly fast lane parents who want their children to grow up as far from the fast lane, as far from the sex freeway itself, as possible.
Far from being a possible threat to parents here, I would like to cheer them on in the raising of children. I have no experience in this work, but I see it's got to be awesomely difficult. If my posting has made your job more difficult, I sincerely apologize. That has never been my intention.
I've seen their task, how difficult it must be to shield youngsters from all the sexual nightmares out there. Some parents here have not just read about how crazy sex can get, they've BEEN there in the TWI sexual fracas. I can see how it's necessary for you to squelch any voice around your kids, who in any way, might be promoting the sex liberty problems of the not-so-good old days.
Now I'm NOT promoting sexual liberty as a part of coming back to PFAL at all, NOT ONE BIT AT ALL.
But I also understand how my posts LOOK LIKE THAT at times to diligent parents on the lookout for potential threats to their young treasures. I want to adjust the way we do things here so that parents need not be alarmed.
posted May 01, 2003 12:41
************************************************************
So I?m taking my break now and it?s going to be a permanent break from this thread. If this is a relief to parents, great. If more relief is needed, I'm open to discussion on this.
[This message was edited by Mike on September 22, 2003 at 14:33.]
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Dot Matrix
Krys
"we keep thinking we can talk sense to him. Give it up! We tried long enough...it ain't gonna happen"
GREAT POINT
I agree we do not have to play with him.
And I agree I do not want Paw bashed and stated so, but I think you were right that Mike is a TROLL. Intended to be one or just so sick it comes naturally.
We can stop playing and we can also let Paw know if we think someone is ruining his site.
Wayfernot saw this months ago when she tried to get Mike to stop pushing his pro TWi diatribe.
Ginger
It is not like a TWI M&A. This is a X-TWI site, not a PRO TWI site and although he has been allowed to visit he continues to POUND us with the doctrine we left. He brings the PRO sickness here relentlessly. We have told him to stop. We have said we are not interested.
This is beyond the M&A TWI stuff. (In TWI it was a witch hunt and trumped up charges.)
There has been people who have bent over backwards to walk Mike away from his cult thinking. He is NOT going to change. He is NOT going to consider their very clear presentations. Raf, Zix, WW, VL, Geoy and others very well versed in scripture have been over and over it. He is NOT here to share in our journey OUT. He is here to push us back into "the cult" whether actually the cult or just their doctrines of bondage and perversion.
The threads have always had disagreements. But with Mike it is all about Going back to PFAL and VPW. IT is an OLD message and really not what this site is suppose to reflect. (to my understanding)
He keeps trying to herd us into his camp over and over again. Not in talking about things logically or even emotionally but all from "PFAL will help you."
This is his feeding ground for his odd ministry (illness) which nobody is interested in.
Whoever wants to stop talking to him - like Krys says then let's stop.
Whoever thinks he is marring the site with his pro PFAL crap and is sick of it, let Paw know.
Whoever wants to talk with him - talk.
But I think to those who have had it, we should tell PAW AND ignore him. It is everybody's individual call and their choice.
Then, after Paw hears from us he can decide if this is what he wants on the site. Pro Way stuff that may retard healing or not.
From what I have heard he is e-mailing people and laughing about the reactions here! He wants to cause PAIN.
I do think you have good personal advice to him.
But I think he needs to go. I have no power to do that, but that is my opinion (as well as others who have contacted me). If he stays then I think ignoring him is best, but there are some very SICK things presented that are difficult to ignore.
Thanks for your post.
I do wonder though why he is speaking about a time out and listening to you PRIOR to your post. Have you read the thread? Or did he private topic you and you came on to calm things down?
Because he pretty much told EXXIE that Uncle Harry touched her to make her a better person.... A test...Something to break the ego in corps training. (paraphrase)
So, no he is not responsible for other people's recations BUT he is responsible for TWISTED thinking that is hurtful and sick. To not respond almost feels like I would be condoning it.
Thanks again for speaking to him because it is hands off when it comes to some of this stuff. But you said it better.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 22, 2003 at 15:10.]
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WeWereScammed
He's leaving?
tohu va BOO HOO
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johniam
The forcible suppression of unpopular views produces the impression that no adequate argument can be found with which to refute them.
- VPW
I came on this thread because I wanted to candidly express my opinion and experiences with the CFS class like Rottie asked for. At this point, if anyone really believes Mike is the only one who had anything to do with the thread's derailment, then you probably also believe Oswald acted alone in killing JFK.
The next course of action is not to ban anybody. I recall a thread on Waydale that went south like this. It was about music or way prod and 2 particular posters ended up in quite a cat fight. After enough dust had settled, the moderator knocked the thread down from 120 posts to 80 some. Some posts on this thread need killin'. That is the extent Paw should get involved. IMO.
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up on high
Dear Gingertea, I'm curious, when did you take PFAL?
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Zixar
I think Dot nailed it with this:
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the word of God..."
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Dot Matrix
Thanks Zix
Amen.
I do not know how you and Raf have dealt with this for so long. I kept walking away.
But the latest statements he made WERE the whole crux of VPW's beliefs that touching people in a sexual way somehow healed them, set them free.
That thinking is what killed TWI and the hearts of MANY women, I could not walk away from this one. I admire your ability to keep debating, but it might be time for me to stop.
Trefor- Big thumbs up for you!
Scammie - yaeh, boohoo - let's throw a party.
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on September 22, 2003 at 15:12.]
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WhiteDove
John
I don't think it was about derailment this thread is pretty much a train wreck by now.
It's about the unkind things said about Dot EX and others it was over the top and without any sorrow. Two days ago I was on the hotseat not because of a purposeful comment but because of a misunderstanding. I felt bad and did something about it. Mike shows no remorse for the hurt he caused thats the difference.
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
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Zixar
If Mike were German, he'd probably be in here claiming that the Jews asked for the Holocaust...
-->
Then again, VPW thought the 6 million was just a myth anyhow, sooo....
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the word of God..."
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johniam
Ginger: I was answering Trefor's post. It wasn't really a reaction, but it was more from my belief system. As stated, no human point of view can condemn homosexuality or any other sin. However, IF the bible really is God's "opinion" of this or any other situation, then God, who made the human body, the heart, it's appetites, etc. most definitely has the authority to condemn homosexuality as perverted. I believe it is, and He does.
This may be hard for some here to comprehend, but my time in TWI did bring about much healing for me especially related to sexual stuff. CFS was part of it, PFAL was part of it, there were just way too many people in TWI to put in any box, good or bad.
I believe Mike when he says that focussing on PFAL healed his hurt about the breakup of TWI. I also believe Dot, Excath, Valerie, and others when they say VPW was a pervert even though that wasn't my experience. I admit there's a part of me that does NOT want to picture him doing that stuff. It's disturbing finding out that this man I respected for those years was doing that. VP was never directly involved in my life, but his ministry and people who served it were in often a good way. It gave me an atmosphere where I could forget about dope and sexual hurts. Haven't had any pain in a long time from that.
Everybody here has posted off topic and/or derailed a thread. If Rottie had titled the thread "Hey, who really hates the CFS class?" then it would be off topic for some of us to post what we posted, but she left it open for all views, pro and con. The only way to guarantee no derailment is to have Paw get really legalistic and hire people to scan the threads and if somebody is off topic they get a warning email and the second time they get a demerit, and finally they get banned. I don't want that!
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Dot Matrix
White Dove wrote the most heartfelt love note I ever got. We talked back and forth getting the backstory on what we meant by what we said.
It was a great time in sharing and getting to know each other.
Zix- I am laughing to death here!
I think Raf said it best on another site:
Jon I am not blaming Mike for a derailment, the thread went where it went and I helped in that.
I am suggesting his constant PUSHING pro TWI thinking, perversions and bondage is what we all left. Some folks still hold on to some beliefs some do not. It is all okay. But to promote the perversions and bondage on a X-TWI site (not thread ALL the threadS) is not very welcome. You know the difference. You may have different opinions than I do or Ex does but it is not about promoting bondage or improper sexual touching as a "test".
Then, there was the slight detour in the homosexual area. Not what I am talking about.
I am speaking of a confluence of TWI promotions.
Thanks I just read your post, you get what I am saying. Thanks for your heart and compassion.
(((Joniam))))
Life is too short for bad coffee!
Dot Matrix
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CircleGame
Before I knew VPW was a sex abuser, I thought the CF&S class was to get people to realize that you did not have to be puritanical in order to be a good christian - i.e. have sex only for procreation, only use the missionary position, etc. As most of TWI were hippies or exhippies, that was probably a relief. Most born-again groups were labeled as "strict", puritanical, etc. I thought the original sin is masturbation teaching sounded "cultish" but of course thought the rest of TWI was aokay for awhile. As far as homosexuality, premarital sex, even "willing" extramarital sex, you might try a look at another website that has ideas similar to VPWs??? Only they are very out in the open and I assume they don't believe in abuse, rape, etc. Thought maybe they do, I havent' read it thoroughly. They have interesting things to say about Bible and sex, and the puritanism that developed over the centuries. Mainly it was ownership of females that influenced the puritanical attitudes.
Was VPWs adultery the #1 thing that bothers most people or the coercion, abuse??
I can't help but think to each his/her own...at this time in my life.....of course I don't believe in abuse, but to each his/her own....mainly because when you try to be something you're not for a religious ideal....the religious ideal turns out to be false.....TWI version of "best" is such and such and then top leaders don't do it.
[This message was edited by imablvr? on September 22, 2003 at 16:04.]
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