I truly don't know. I haven't heard his his definitive work on the subject, though I've heard it will be coming out in book form soon. I couldn't put it together from his mentions in the Gifts of the Spirit course...the Godhead not being the topic at hand.
But he definitely denies his preexistence, no question.
Okay, I pulled out BG's book The Gifts of the Spirit The preface opens with a missive about fear:
"There is no force in all the world whose presence is so to be deplored as fear. Fear is destructive. Fear breeds suspicion, jealousy & hatred. It is fear which sets men (and nations) at variance. It is fear, nothing less, that has kept the world at war, and has hindered progress through the years.
In the spiritual realm, fear is our greatest foe, being Satan's most formidable weapon. Man, unsaved unregenerate man, is kept in bondage through the fear of death"
He goes on to say that when you "reveive enlightenment concerning the things of the spirit, your fear of the supernatural will disappear, and as that fear goes it will be replaced by faith: faith in the things of God, faith in christ Himself and faith in the things that pertain unto His Gospel."
No, there is no teaching here on the "law of believing". He goes straight into a preview of the validity & existence of the Gifts throughout the history of the Bible.
How about, just for fun, I throw in the following, from Chapter One:
WHAT IT IS
The gift of tongues is the God-given ability to speak in other tongues at will.
or how about, from Chapter Seven:
WHAT IT IS
The gift of faith, one of the nine gifts of the Spirit, is the God-given ability to believe for the fantastically impossible to come to pass (and that at your word) and the further ability to impart faith to others.
In the article for those of you seeking Cliff Notes:
One of the first times the story is published is in the 25th anniversary booklet. In this version, he doesn't claim that audibly spoke to him:
"Father clearly spoke to me one night while I was praying, and He made this promise as He spoke to me: He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century, provided that I would teach what He taught me to others." (Page 9)
While Wierwille still makes the audacious claim that he is the only man in 1,850 years to teach the pure Word of God, he didn't claim outright that God's voice was audible.
then:
However, a few years later Elena Whiteside wrote a book which virtually idolized Wierwille and TWI. In this version, Wierwille insists it was an audible voice:
"I was praying.... And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said he would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others" (Whiteside, The Way-- Living in Love, p. 178).
Then:
Mrs. Wierwille quotes a version of the audible-voice story in her book Born Again to Serve and adds, "Rev. Wierwille never told anyone of this experience until much later when he was teaching The Way Corps. It was a most astounding phenomenon which he kept to himself" (page 43).It may be that Wierwille found that such stories could easily impress the more impressionable young Corps with such stories of his exploits. Whiteside's book is written in that period and includes other examples of Wierwille exaggerating (even lying about) his background, which greatly impresses Whiteside (see examples in From Vesper Chimes to The Way InternationalBy Juedes & Morton).
Plagiarism is serious fraud. It has caused doctoral candidates to be removed from graduate school, journalists to be fired, and public figures to be shamed
Then it says:
Here we will show that nearly every section of RTHST was stolen from Stiles and Bullinger. RTHST is heavily based on the content, wording, structure, terms and general conclusions of these authors. In fact, Wierwille included every section of Bullinger's book into RTHST in some form, and most every chapter of Stiles is represented as well. If Wierwille had never plagiarized Bullinger and Stiles, his "book" RTHST would be hardly the length of a magazine article.
Wierwille never once credited these authors for their work. In fact, he never once mentions their names in RTHST, and never admitted in any other article or book that he used Stiles and Bullinger to compile RTHST. It is clear why he omitted their names-- if he did cite them, it would show that Wierwille's claim to have studied the Bible alone was completely false and fraudulent.
Please click on the above site for the chart!
Apparently, "we" all come to the same conclusions as here is what someone else wrote about VPW stealing other people's work:
Here is a description of J E Stiles book on the Holy Spirit. I think I read it was written in six years before VPW'a book (on another site) but I might be mistaken.
I love this in the article as it sums up a lot of what we are saying, although I do not know if John J is aware of how much BG Leonard was also stolen, the act of stealing is addressed:
A person better understands the severity of plagiarism when he realizes that plagiarism is both lying and stealing.
Ephesians specifically instructs us, "you must put off falsehood" (4:25) and "he who has been stealing must steal no longer" (4:28), while Jesus states that the Adversary is the father of lies. Wierwille stole others' words when he placed them in his books and then lied by placing his own name on the books, asserting that all words in them were his alone. By selling his publications, Wierwille also made money from other men's work. He therefore obtained a degree of prestige and money at others' expense.
Many lawsuits initiated by the entertainment industry and business have established that theft of other peoples' words, ideas and work are criminal offenses. Surely Wierwille's extensive plagiarism indicates that he has stolen words and ideas and lied about their source, and even claimed that all his work was orignal. All this demonstrates a lack of integrity.
JJ- was VERY helpful to me when I was "recovering" from TWI. Nicer than any TWI person EVER was (except Ralph D who was a treasure).
John J is a very informed loving man. So, if you think he does know, I am going to ask what he knows. I feel like all the pieces are falling into place -- making sense....
The (PFAL) class was a good class -- the man (VP)who ran it not so good.
Oh, I was just looking at the title page of Leonard's work on the Godhead The Water in the Bottle and noticed it was first published in 1952 by....
Canadian Christian Press
!
For grins (this has nothing to do with Wierwille's ripoffs) I'll share the entire preface:
It happened when I was campaigning in Turkey. I was in Istanbul at the time and had been taking into custody for preaching. Arraigned in a Moslem court, it was not long before I was asked:
"How many Gods do you have?"
"One", I responded, "for there is only one God, and He is a Spirit."
"What about your Jesus Christ?" was the next question.
By way of reply I took up the bottle of water which, my interpreter having ordered it for me, was at my right hand, and preached an abridged version of this, my favorite message.
I'm browsing this book, seeing if I can get a better handle on Leonard's take on the Godhead. In the process I found this:
Thus in the Beginning, man was MADE. He was FORMED; Man also was CREATED. (each phrase is interjected with supporting verses).
"When one makes anything, substance is required, of which the thing made consists."
Almost word for word in Piffle.
Although BG doesn't indulge in the tortured "logic" Wierwille uses in lining up the 3 words with body, soul & spirit (thank God), nor does he artificially separate "formed & made", he does equate Adam's death with God's likeness, spirit, dying.
And just to confirm to Rafael concerning Jesus' pre-existence (or lack thereof) I submit the following (same book):
"The average Christian visualizes the incarnation somewhat after this fachion: God and Jesus Christ, two persons, inhabiting the Eternities together, finally decided to quit playing marbles; and they invented a world, (with all the pieces of eight that make up a world), climaxing everything by bringing man into existence. Man, however, fouled up the works, and, centuries later, God decided to send Jesus Christ, His Son, FROM HEAVEN TO EARTH to die for man's sin. Rubbish! There was no Jesus Christ till Bethlehem! God, and God alone, inhabited the eternities!"
Geez Pete, Wierwille was so lame he couldn't even come up with a unique name for his publishing venture? I'm flabberghasted at the magnitude of his ineptness - and at our boundless gullibility.
After all this time, it was even worse than I thought.
Wooooaaaa, let's pause to wipe the sweat from our brows!
To recap -- what does all this mean and keep posting this information! Please!
I think the information shared here is relevant to all of our pursuits in truth. We all want to know things like:
What happened?
Was I in a cult?
Was it always a cult?
How was I so tricked?
Why did the PFAL class deliver me and not the man who taught it?
How could the class help me and the man who taught it be so corrupt?
How could a ?father in the word? do these perverted things under a Christian heading?
On another thread "was it a cult to begin with or become one" has a similar theme as a topic about a year or two ago was "VPW always bad?" (and it was not meant from birth but the conception of TWI)
I believe we torment ourselves because we cannot figure out how the class worked for us and yet was taught by such a bad person. So, with our little minds we think "no, the class was good therefore the teacher was good and all rumors are lies" ? or we think "the teacher was an evil liar therefore his class was bad." Or similar things.
I contend that there were two ministries at work here. We actual took a class that was VERY VERY similar to BG Leonard?s class. VPW stole the class and marketed as his own God given material, once we understand that happened we can be delivered from the bondage all the above questions generate in our hearts.
An example I used was:
If I invented a great recipe for "Brownies" and I opened a cooking class. Perhaps, all of you sign up to come. You do not know me, you are going to learn how to make GREAT BROWNIES!
As I ready for my class, a weirdo enters and ties me up and puts me in the closet. Then, all of you show up and he uses MY RECIPE to teach you how to make brownies.
The brownies would still taste great despite the fact that it is a stolen recipe.
You may serve them to others and they may LOVE them. So, you go back to the teacher and ask for some more recipes. But now the food just isn't tasting right and the teacher is very strange.
The first batch of brownies that you ate were still GREAT right?
Because the brownies came from a different source then the rest of the recipes.
TWO different bakers. Two different results.
And if you never KNEW I was the original baker who was shoved in a closet and had my recipe stolen, you might wonder how that first stuff was so good and the rest so bad.
Years later, you hear I was the person who was suppose to teach you how to bake -- might shed some light on what happened.
Then, the Question was TWI always a cult or become one as Fortunate... asked on a different thread, IMO there were two ministries at work. One was a cult from the genesis and the other was not -- the confusion is we were in both simultaneously
It is unfortunate but we thought because we took the PFAL class we were apart of TWI. Really, we were a part of BG Leonard?s ministry and did not know it.
TWI was a cult from the beginning. BUT we were not all in the cult from the beginning.
Some of us were in wonderful fellowships singing sweet songs and seeing God answer prayers because we all took a great class! Although, I took the class via TWI, I was not in a cult until about 5 years later when the dam n corps showed having personal contact with VPW.
As Evan pointed out Leonard?s problem was VPW. Guess what? He was our problem as well.
*Posted by our Evan:
quote: It makes me realize that Leonard's class had a profound impact on Wierwille. So profound, he decided to base an offshoot ministry on the concept, if not the exact content. The rip-off was so wholesale that he repeatedly omitted Leonard from references as to who he learned from. The only place you see it is in The Way Living in Love, wherein Wierwille gives the account of meeting Leonard & taking his class but in the end dismisses him with "he was great with experiences but not with the Word". He claims to have gone home & "put it all together with the Word" Yeah right.
I was dumbfounded, and more than a little distracted, when I heard BG use Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jumpup & Henry Boloco in his illustrations. And I became convinced that some of Wierwille's strange pronunciations were not from his corner of rural Ohio...he actually copped them from BG. I mean, that's WIERD.
Maybe he smelled the potential following, fame, fortune when he saw BG's work. And being a lazy liar he took the shortest path to success in ministry...lying & stealing. What a legacy!
*Also posted and enlightening:
He (BG Leonard) was on a mission and was bent on fulfilling it. He was not oriented to disseminating his teachings on a wider basis, wouldn't know how if he wanted. But he was a magnificent teacher with amazing knowledge all over the map. A real renaissance man.
But BG's real problem was Wierwille. You see, BG let Wierwille teach his class, which Wierwille did under the auspices of Leonard's ministry.
I even saw the pictures of those 2 classes in some of Leonard's 50's publications...pictures always represented to us as the first two "PFAL classes". This affected BG in an unfortunate way. He became overprotective of his works. He was darned if he'd be ripped off again. Pity. I think it could have been revelatory had he simply let go and cast his body of work "on the waters" so to speak.
...All of this adds up for me. His snow job, his wholesale plagiarism, the whole sordid mess, casts such a pall over anything he did I fail to see the value in listening to one word of it. It's hopelessly tainted. PFAL is such an adulterated piece of crap compared to BG's work I think it's hopeless. It has the effect of making the true things VP said in his class untrue, so clouded is every truth with so many falsehoods...
Again, I contend there were TWO ministries at work here. That is what has led us to ?stay too long? ?be confused as to the class and the man who taught it? ?our dedication? ?the problem in reconciling good class with a bad man? and ?some folks undying allegiance to VP and unwillingness to believe the horrible things he did ? how could he the class was so good!? Folks it was NOT his class!
Our Father in the word (so to speak) was BG Leonard. That is why the cloud around VPW was so ominous and a complete contradiction from the class and some of the sweet corps-free twigs we had been in. TWI was a cult. The class and the subsequent fellowships were from BG Leonard (and other contributors) were not cults.
Kinda sets ya free doesn?t it?
Edited for a typo
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 15, 2003 at 16:02.]
quote:It is unfortunate but we thought because we took the PFAL class we were a part of TWI. Really, we were a part of BG Leonard?s ministry and did not know it.
That's an interesting concept and good food for thought. :)-->
A lot of the confusion is because PFAL seemed to like some darn good fruit. Now that we know/consider/believe (depending on where you are) the class is another man?s fruit. Let us look at VPW?s fruit?.
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them... Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire... Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name ... Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.'" (Matthew 7:15-19, 22-23, NIV)
The law of believing was VPW first to teach it in 1,850 years (since the first century?)
While Cliffe heads each chapter of Let Go and Let God with a brief Bible verse he does not attempt to prove his teachings with Scripture. Wierwille, on the other hand, attempts to illustrate from Scripture his theory of "believing" thereby "Christianizing" this spiritist's ideas.(12) One thing is sure. Wierwille's source far his teaching on believing was neither the Holy Spirit nor the Word of God, but Albert Cliffe, who spiritually stood far outside the bounds of biblical Christianity
Reviews the founder, history and activities of The Way. Explores Wierwille's claims of hearing God's voice, snowfalls and scholarly education. Includes evidence of VPW's plagiarism and textual changes in his books. Traces VPW's departure from his denomination, sources and evolution of his teaching. Many details on the group's numbers, Corps training, outreach, publications, wealth and locations. Describes sensitive topics like the exodus of top Way leaders and The Way police force. This book won Cornerstone magazine's Book of the Year" (new religion category) award in 1984.
All these references go to J Judes site.
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 15, 2003 at 14:53.]
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TheEvan
I truly don't know. I haven't heard his his definitive work on the subject, though I've heard it will be coming out in book form soon. I couldn't put it together from his mentions in the Gifts of the Spirit course...the Godhead not being the topic at hand.
But he definitely denies his preexistence, no question.
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Raf
Wow.
That's a damning indictment of the 1942 promise, if Leonard knew all those things before Wierwille did.
Did Leonard teach a law of believing?
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TheEvan
Okay, I pulled out BG's book The Gifts of the Spirit The preface opens with a missive about fear:
"There is no force in all the world whose presence is so to be deplored as fear. Fear is destructive. Fear breeds suspicion, jealousy & hatred. It is fear which sets men (and nations) at variance. It is fear, nothing less, that has kept the world at war, and has hindered progress through the years.
In the spiritual realm, fear is our greatest foe, being Satan's most formidable weapon. Man, unsaved unregenerate man, is kept in bondage through the fear of death"
He goes on to say that when you "reveive enlightenment concerning the things of the spirit, your fear of the supernatural will disappear, and as that fear goes it will be replaced by faith: faith in the things of God, faith in christ Himself and faith in the things that pertain unto His Gospel."
No, there is no teaching here on the "law of believing". He goes straight into a preview of the validity & existence of the Gifts throughout the history of the Bible.
How about, just for fun, I throw in the following, from Chapter One:
WHAT IT IS
The gift of tongues is the God-given ability to speak in other tongues at will.
or how about, from Chapter Seven:
WHAT IT IS
The gift of faith, one of the nine gifts of the Spirit, is the God-given ability to believe for the fantastically impossible to come to pass (and that at your word) and the further ability to impart faith to others.
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Dot Matrix
WOW Evan
It is damning to the alleged promise given in 1942.
Dot Matrix
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Dot Matrix
In looking up J E Stiles I found this:
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stolenrthst.htm
In the article for those of you seeking Cliff Notes:
One of the first times the story is published is in the 25th anniversary booklet. In this version, he doesn't claim that audibly spoke to him:
"Father clearly spoke to me one night while I was praying, and He made this promise as He spoke to me: He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century, provided that I would teach what He taught me to others." (Page 9)
While Wierwille still makes the audacious claim that he is the only man in 1,850 years to teach the pure Word of God, he didn't claim outright that God's voice was audible.
then:
However, a few years later Elena Whiteside wrote a book which virtually idolized Wierwille and TWI. In this version, Wierwille insists it was an audible voice:
"I was praying.... And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said he would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others" (Whiteside, The Way-- Living in Love, p. 178).
Then:
Mrs. Wierwille quotes a version of the audible-voice story in her book Born Again to Serve and adds, "Rev. Wierwille never told anyone of this experience until much later when he was teaching The Way Corps. It was a most astounding phenomenon which he kept to himself" (page 43).It may be that Wierwille found that such stories could easily impress the more impressionable young Corps with such stories of his exploits. Whiteside's book is written in that period and includes other examples of Wierwille exaggerating (even lying about) his background, which greatly impresses Whiteside (see examples in From Vesper Chimes to The Way InternationalBy Juedes & Morton).
Plagiarism is serious fraud. It has caused doctoral candidates to be removed from graduate school, journalists to be fired, and public figures to be shamed
Then it says:
Here we will show that nearly every section of RTHST was stolen from Stiles and Bullinger. RTHST is heavily based on the content, wording, structure, terms and general conclusions of these authors. In fact, Wierwille included every section of Bullinger's book into RTHST in some form, and most every chapter of Stiles is represented as well. If Wierwille had never plagiarized Bullinger and Stiles, his "book" RTHST would be hardly the length of a magazine article.
Wierwille never once credited these authors for their work. In fact, he never once mentions their names in RTHST, and never admitted in any other article or book that he used Stiles and Bullinger to compile RTHST. It is clear why he omitted their names-- if he did cite them, it would show that Wierwille's claim to have studied the Bible alone was completely false and fraudulent.
Please click on the above site for the chart!
Apparently, "we" all come to the same conclusions as here is what someone else wrote about VPW stealing other people's work:
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_iplagbooks.htm
Here is a description of J E Stiles book on the Holy Spirit. I think I read it was written in six years before VPW'a book (on another site) but I might be mistaken.
http://members.tripod.com/~RobertGillette/TONGUES.html
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 14, 2003 at 1:22.]
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WordWolf
Well, that answered the Stiles' ripoffs a LOT
better than I could.
(I just remembered previous threads had
documented it.)
------------------------
I do know that the pictures in the Founders
Hall numbered Eight. You named 7 of them.
That's ok, I know 2 of them, and one of them is
the one you left out: J.E. Stiles.
That was the first time I ever remember running
across Stiles' name.
I was told those pictures were men vpw admired
or learned from. (No mention that any of their
work ended up in the classes.)
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Dot Matrix
WW-
I love this in the article as it sums up a lot of what we are saying, although I do not know if John J is aware of how much BG Leonard was also stolen, the act of stealing is addressed:
A person better understands the severity of plagiarism when he realizes that plagiarism is both lying and stealing.
Ephesians specifically instructs us, "you must put off falsehood" (4:25) and "he who has been stealing must steal no longer" (4:28), while Jesus states that the Adversary is the father of lies. Wierwille stole others' words when he placed them in his books and then lied by placing his own name on the books, asserting that all words in them were his alone. By selling his publications, Wierwille also made money from other men's work. He therefore obtained a degree of prestige and money at others' expense.
Many lawsuits initiated by the entertainment industry and business have established that theft of other peoples' words, ideas and work are criminal offenses. Surely Wierwille's extensive plagiarism indicates that he has stolen words and ideas and lied about their source, and even claimed that all his work was orignal. All this demonstrates a lack of integrity.
Dr. John P. Juedes (from his site)
Dot Matrix
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Raf
John Juedes literally wrote the book on VPW's plagiarism. I suspect he's well aware of the Leonard connection.
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Dot Matrix
I think I will ask him.
JJ- was VERY helpful to me when I was "recovering" from TWI. Nicer than any TWI person EVER was (except Ralph D who was a treasure).
John J is a very informed loving man. So, if you think he does know, I am going to ask what he knows. I feel like all the pieces are falling into place -- making sense....
The (PFAL) class was a good class -- the man (VP)who ran it not so good.
Dot Matrix
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Dot Matrix
Here is more on Stiles and plagerism --
You can read the pages side by side!
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_plagstil8.htm
Dot Matrix
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TheEvan
Oh, I was just looking at the title page of Leonard's work on the Godhead The Water in the Bottle and noticed it was first published in 1952 by....
Canadian Christian Press
!
For grins (this has nothing to do with Wierwille's ripoffs) I'll share the entire preface:
It happened when I was campaigning in Turkey. I was in Istanbul at the time and had been taking into custody for preaching. Arraigned in a Moslem court, it was not long before I was asked:
"How many Gods do you have?"
"One", I responded, "for there is only one God, and He is a Spirit."
"What about your Jesus Christ?" was the next question.
By way of reply I took up the bottle of water which, my interpreter having ordered it for me, was at my right hand, and preached an abridged version of this, my favorite message.
My I present it now, in fuller form, to you?
Classic, eh?
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TheEvan
I'm browsing this book, seeing if I can get a better handle on Leonard's take on the Godhead. In the process I found this:
Thus in the Beginning, man was MADE. He was FORMED; Man also was CREATED. (each phrase is interjected with supporting verses).
"When one makes anything, substance is required, of which the thing made consists."
Almost word for word in Piffle.
Although BG doesn't indulge in the tortured "logic" Wierwille uses in lining up the 3 words with body, soul & spirit (thank God), nor does he artificially separate "formed & made", he does equate Adam's death with God's likeness, spirit, dying.
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TheEvan
And just to confirm to Rafael concerning Jesus' pre-existence (or lack thereof) I submit the following (same book):
"The average Christian visualizes the incarnation somewhat after this fachion: God and Jesus Christ, two persons, inhabiting the Eternities together, finally decided to quit playing marbles; and they invented a world, (with all the pieces of eight that make up a world), climaxing everything by bringing man into existence. Man, however, fouled up the works, and, centuries later, God decided to send Jesus Christ, His Son, FROM HEAVEN TO EARTH to die for man's sin. Rubbish! There was no Jesus Christ till Bethlehem! God, and God alone, inhabited the eternities!"
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Dot Matrix
WOW
Evan that is compelling!
Dot Matrix
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Raf
Oh my God.
I'm just...
Wow.
Speechless. I had no idea. None.
Where is this book?
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TheEvan
try
http://www.come.to/ctc-of-texas
click on "books, tapes on a donational basis only"
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George Aar
Evan,
The "CANADIAN CHRISTIAN PRESS"?(!)
Geez Pete, Wierwille was so lame he couldn't even come up with a unique name for his publishing venture? I'm flabberghasted at the magnitude of his ineptness - and at our boundless gullibility.
After all this time, it was even worse than I thought.
geo.
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Raf
No offense, but that Web site is horrific in its design. Almost like they don't WANT customers.
Anyone besides me interested in ordering, be patient.
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TheEvan
It fits their M.O. Rafael. Kind of the "car-up-on-blocks-with-dog-on-heavy-chain" of ministries. Never destined to be mass-market, that's for sure.
Agree or disagree with Leonard, there was never any question about his integrity...
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Dot Matrix
It does have that home grown flavor!
When I was reading about their class and books, I would click on the picture thinking it had more info-- it did not.
But I will take a guy in a trailer with integrity over a scoundrel in a big house any day!
Dot Matrix
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FreshAir 99
WOW!
This thread should be incorporated into a main forum topic
to expose vpw's claims of "God teaching him the Word like
it hadn't been known since the first century."
Even Mrs. Wierwille's book exposes, to a certain degree,
the deception. Perhaps, the WayGB will note this and
the book will go thru a revision.
:P-->
Somehow, in some manner......this information ought to be
highlighted and easily retrieved from the countless threads
on this forum.
Thanks Paw for keeping GS up and running. This type of
information is invaluable for dismantling twi's claims.
Fresh
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Dot Matrix
Wooooaaaa, let's pause to wipe the sweat from our brows!
To recap -- what does all this mean and keep posting this information! Please!
I think the information shared here is relevant to all of our pursuits in truth. We all want to know things like:
What happened?
Was I in a cult?
Was it always a cult?
How was I so tricked?
Why did the PFAL class deliver me and not the man who taught it?
How could the class help me and the man who taught it be so corrupt?
How could a ?father in the word? do these perverted things under a Christian heading?
On another thread "was it a cult to begin with or become one" has a similar theme as a topic about a year or two ago was "VPW always bad?" (and it was not meant from birth but the conception of TWI)
I believe we torment ourselves because we cannot figure out how the class worked for us and yet was taught by such a bad person. So, with our little minds we think "no, the class was good therefore the teacher was good and all rumors are lies" ? or we think "the teacher was an evil liar therefore his class was bad." Or similar things.
I contend that there were two ministries at work here. We actual took a class that was VERY VERY similar to BG Leonard?s class. VPW stole the class and marketed as his own God given material, once we understand that happened we can be delivered from the bondage all the above questions generate in our hearts.
An example I used was:
If I invented a great recipe for "Brownies" and I opened a cooking class. Perhaps, all of you sign up to come. You do not know me, you are going to learn how to make GREAT BROWNIES!
As I ready for my class, a weirdo enters and ties me up and puts me in the closet. Then, all of you show up and he uses MY RECIPE to teach you how to make brownies.
The brownies would still taste great despite the fact that it is a stolen recipe.
You may serve them to others and they may LOVE them. So, you go back to the teacher and ask for some more recipes. But now the food just isn't tasting right and the teacher is very strange.
The first batch of brownies that you ate were still GREAT right?
Because the brownies came from a different source then the rest of the recipes.
TWO different bakers. Two different results.
And if you never KNEW I was the original baker who was shoved in a closet and had my recipe stolen, you might wonder how that first stuff was so good and the rest so bad.
Years later, you hear I was the person who was suppose to teach you how to bake -- might shed some light on what happened.
Then, the Question was TWI always a cult or become one as Fortunate... asked on a different thread, IMO there were two ministries at work. One was a cult from the genesis and the other was not -- the confusion is we were in both simultaneously
It is unfortunate but we thought because we took the PFAL class we were apart of TWI. Really, we were a part of BG Leonard?s ministry and did not know it.
TWI was a cult from the beginning. BUT we were not all in the cult from the beginning.
Some of us were in wonderful fellowships singing sweet songs and seeing God answer prayers because we all took a great class! Although, I took the class via TWI, I was not in a cult until about 5 years later when the dam n corps showed having personal contact with VPW.
As Evan pointed out Leonard?s problem was VPW. Guess what? He was our problem as well.
*Posted by our Evan:
Again, I contend there were TWO ministries at work here. That is what has led us to ?stay too long? ?be confused as to the class and the man who taught it? ?our dedication? ?the problem in reconciling good class with a bad man? and ?some folks undying allegiance to VP and unwillingness to believe the horrible things he did ? how could he the class was so good!? Folks it was NOT his class!
Our Father in the word (so to speak) was BG Leonard. That is why the cloud around VPW was so ominous and a complete contradiction from the class and some of the sweet corps-free twigs we had been in. TWI was a cult. The class and the subsequent fellowships were from BG Leonard (and other contributors) were not cults.
Kinda sets ya free doesn?t it?
Edited for a typo
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 15, 2003 at 16:02.]
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FreshAir 99
Dot Matrix
That's an interesting concept and good food for thought.
:)-->
Thanks, Dot.
Fresh
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Dot Matrix
Thank you!
Wanna be a fruit inspector?
By their fruit ye shall know them.
A lot of the confusion is because PFAL seemed to like some darn good fruit. Now that we know/consider/believe (depending on where you are) the class is another man?s fruit. Let us look at VPW?s fruit?.
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them... Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire... Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name ... Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.'" (Matthew 7:15-19, 22-23, NIV)
Sexual misconduct:
Marsha?s story
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
Another one
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_Psexstory.htm
Donna?s
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_newwoman.htm
Bea
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_tate.htm
TJ
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_johnson.htm
Plagerism
The law of believing was VPW first to teach it in 1,850 years (since the first century?)
While Cliffe heads each chapter of Let Go and Let God with a brief Bible verse he does not attempt to prove his teachings with Scripture. Wierwille, on the other hand, attempts to illustrate from Scripture his theory of "believing" thereby "Christianizing" this spiritist's ideas.(12) One thing is sure. Wierwille's source far his teaching on believing was neither the Holy Spirit nor the Word of God, but Albert Cliffe, who spiritually stood far outside the bounds of biblical Christianity
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_lawbelieve.htm
Holy Spirit Today
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stolenrthst.htm
Side by side of other author:
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_plagstil8.htm
Of interest:
From "Vesper Chimes" to "The Way International" John Juedes and Douglas Morton.
Milwaukee, WI: CARIS, 1983. 78 pp, 254 notes, 4 photos, $3.00
Reviews the founder, history and activities of The Way. Explores Wierwille's claims of hearing God's voice, snowfalls and scholarly education. Includes evidence of VPW's plagiarism and textual changes in his books. Traces VPW's departure from his denomination, sources and evolution of his teaching. Many details on the group's numbers, Corps training, outreach, publications, wealth and locations. Describes sensitive topics like the exodus of top Way leaders and The Way police force. This book won Cornerstone magazine's Book of the Year" (new religion category) award in 1984.
All these references go to J Judes site.
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 15, 2003 at 14:53.]
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