I heard from, I believe it was a shy poster here - years ago, who was friendly with DM, that DM serviced VPW regularly. And that LCM was not in favor of the "screw everything that moves" policy. He was a country church boy who thought that was not right. But VPW told him he could not serve God unless he learned how to sexually service the women in the body of Christ.
So, he got into it. So, probably it was in obedience to VPW the moggie. Isn't that where it all started if you trace it back as if you are tracing a transmittable disease?
I thought DM was attractive and pretty cool, She did not need to DO that. IMO, she had to be talked into it with weird doctrine and a powerful person or something.
A lot of those girls were attracive people not in need of an old fat man. But those that went back for more, were convinced they were being blessed and blessing this married fat cult leader. Go figure!
Whatever, it gives me a headache to try and put myself in their shoes.
Yeah, exie - I remember that first "loosen up" line VP hit LCM with. I didn't get that it meant sex, though - and agreed with it. LCM was a wee bit uptight back then and I thought loosening up was a good thing!
Dot - when I first met DM at HQ's in the early 70's she was adorable! A real California girl - thin, tan and sun-bleached blonde. I guess she spent too much time with Wanda and the other farmer's daughters and started to morph into one.
Yes, the Corps was definitely about obedience to Wierwille. I knew going in that it was to be about discipline, but having been trained to be a professional dancer at the college level, I did not find the discipline aspects especially difficult. (Granted, I couldn't participate in everything, because I was pregnant in my in-res year.)
I had thought that there would be in-depth training in The Word. I was disappointed. Some classes were rehashes of classes everyone had already taken, like CF&S, etc. The public speaking course by Bill Maize was only marginally Christian, and if you'd read How to Win Friends and the Memory Book, you already knew most of it. The Christian Counseling course should not have made anyone think that they were competent to counsel anyone with a problem more difficult than a hangnail. And I still shake my head over the Reflections gal, teaching us how to look our best, saying, "I wore these shoes even though they don't fit my feet now that I'm pregnant, but I like the way they make my ankles look thin...." -->! VPW was into his "literal translation according to usage" phase, which wasn't a literal translation at all, but his private interpretation of what he wanted to emphasize in each verse.
But the biggest surprises I got there were the lack of loving interest shown us by leadership, and the huge amount of attention given to Wierwille whenever he visited, even though he'd said to us once that he wished he could come and go without fanfare. I had a distict impression at the time that many of us were being kind to one another in spite of leadership. And I have more than one recollection of elder Corps lording their status over us. When VP came to visit IC, we all had to clean extra, the kitchen cooked special foods by a gourmet chef that the rest of us didn't ever see, and whoever was in charge of VP's living quarters had a long list of things that had to be done precisely, right down to the mint on the pillow.
I knew I was getting a special dispensation to be there, being pregnant, so I kept quiet, mostly. (Except I did ask VP about the special treatment he got, and he dismissed the question.) But it was the beginning of the end of my involvement in TWI, as I saw for the first time that things were corrupt at the top.
That pretty much explains everything I suspected about the Corps. I was in for a year and before that was allowed to attend some of the classes the Corps took, kind of like auditing a course, or in this case, the Corps. It was fun for me the outsider at the time, but I remember academic classes were lacking and it was mostly about doing work for the farm and the ministry, mainly menial jobs. When I became an "insider", I was shocked at the low level of heart involved, the reproof and abuse, (correction was abuse and not handled in a loving way), shocked at the elitist attitude of the leaders, shocked at brothers and sisters in the Corps reporting mild infractions on each other, and watched as the hard-heartedness was taught to me and others. I became an abusive fellowship coordinator in my area. I began with 15 people and lost them all. After leaving TWI, I apologized to all of them. I was surprised and very moved when all 15 forgave me, the women and men shaking my hand and giving me hugs. I couldn't bear what I had done to these people. I had a lot of grief over what I had done. I feel better today about it because of them. Simply put, the followers were better leaders than I. It is an example I will remember for the rest of my life.
and Hope, and others, let's face it: Craig was a rather unimaginative, by the rules kinda fella when he came to the way... but as we now know, vic had more'n one meaning in a lot of his teaching. One for public consumption, another for those in the "know". I am not positive that all in Way Corps 1-3, maybe 4, were instructed in the "secret" doctrine but many were--sure explains a lot about the actions of more than a few even way back (72-78) when everything seemed so hunky-dory on the surface at the way.
You are so right when you mentioned the duplicity of the teachings of VP. To the "uninititated," so much of the "teaching" sounded so good, yet there was an underlying meaning to it, that many of us just weren't aware of, and didn't get. I think TWI was duplicitous right from the start, considering VP's history.
yes, I resisted the idea myself for a long time...but I have been "forced" to admit, after all that has been brought to light, that vp was not what he painted himself to be at all. He may have truly helped some but he apparently used far more. He was not driven by the will of God but by his own will and desires, ie, lusts...sad to say, he hurt many more deeply than he ever knew, I am sure of that....
Yeah, alfa, I know what you mean. And I have thought about this whole subject (which is the neverending story in alot of ways) very much.
While many of us thought that VP was a great teacher of "the Word," really what he was teaching was his own interpretation of that "Word." After all, in PFAL he set himself up as the great "researcher," then he built himself an empire which included a "research department" to led an air of credibility to himself and his "minstry." Then he starts a "leadership training program," which had a modicum of success, by virtue of the sheer numbers of people attracted.
In another thread, I think Kit Sober hit the nail on the head when she mentioned the de-emphasis by VPW on the cross of Christ and all that means to MOST Christians. And then, couple that fact with the "absent Christ doctrine," and the emphasis, not on Jesus Christ as our example, and the character of Christ being formed in each Christian believer, but on "men of God" (with all their shortcomings and tragic flaws) in the bible, and "the Word" (according to VPW). Then add a BIG emphasis on the "gift of holy spirit," and how that enables fallen sinners to become God's superheroes, and voila! a cult is born.
I don't think many of the "teachings" of VPW were that overtly evil or unsound on the surface, (ok there are exceptions) but weave them all together, and one gets a pretty twisted picture of Christianity.
Of course this is a pretty simplistic view in a lot of ways, but somehow it works for me.
" And then, couple that fact with the "absent Christ doctrine," and the emphasis, not on Jesus Christ as our example, and the character of Christ being formed in each Christian believer, but on "men of God" (with all their shortcomings and tragic flaws) in the bible,"
Makes me think of Hebrews 12:3
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith........"
Bullinger has a footnote, that you know VP saw (He worshipped the guy) but discarded.
The footnote says: "Looking=Looking away from (these witnesses)
Oh, remember the great way ministry "believers hall of fame"......Hebrews 11?
Yeah, we were taught to learn of them, master their believing, and seek their wisdom.
Oh yeah, don't forget to use JC at the end of your prayer.
Bullinger said and taught that although the believers of Hebrews were great witnesses, we should LOOK AWAY FROM THEM UNTO jESUS-the very master,leader,beginner,pioneer and ruler AND Perfector of FAITH. (I believe that Hebrews was written to Christian Jews and contains reproof and correction to get them to shed their religion and SEE JESUS)
VP pampered our egos with the church epistles but refused to tell us exactly where to go to see how the master of faith did it and then imitate HIM.
It's sad to say, but for years, when a issue came up, I would say, "Now Dr. Wierwille said", instead of "Now Jesus Said"
Good points. And another interesting thing is that the bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone, the foundation, the rock, etc.
VP claimed he built "his ministry," on the "rightly-divided Word." Ahem, excuse me, but nothing in the bible, specifically the gospels or church epistles, talks about the bible being the foundation, etc. It is always the Living Word, The Word Made Flesh, Jesus Christ.
I think this is why TWI fell apart when VP died. It was all about VPW, and his particular assortment of teachings. That's why it has crumbled.
LCM wrote a book called "VP and Me." I think it's obvious that Jesus Christ was not his Lord, VP was.
As a reply to the question in the title of this thread:
Did VPW teach LCM on Legalism and Sexual Abuse?
I would have to say yes, and in this way:
Several times while in residence, VPW discussed legalism vs. license with us as two extremes. He discussed the "early" days of TWI when open sex and drug use was a problem in the Corps and ministry (I guess now it was the "openness" that was the problem and not the act itself!!!) and the excuses that people used. He also discussed various problems he had with leadership who had been legalistic, and what forms it took and the results of that behavior. Then he made a very interesting comment in light of the above discussion.
VPW often said that despite the "problems" that licentious behavior presented, it would not be license that would bring the ministry down. He several times emphatically stated that it would be legalism that would bring it down. I'm sure there are many Corps here, especially you old-timers, who can verify that statement.
It was a self-serving statement, for sure. But it was in fact true in the sense that it was LCM's legalism that drove the ministry into the ground, and momentum still merrily augers it in that direction.
However, it was VPW's own licentious behavior that was the setup for it to occur. If behavior swings too far in one direction, without fail it will eventually go the other way in excess.
Recommended Posts
Dot Matrix
I heard from, I believe it was a shy poster here - years ago, who was friendly with DM, that DM serviced VPW regularly. And that LCM was not in favor of the "screw everything that moves" policy. He was a country church boy who thought that was not right. But VPW told him he could not serve God unless he learned how to sexually service the women in the body of Christ.
So, he got into it. So, probably it was in obedience to VPW the moggie. Isn't that where it all started if you trace it back as if you are tracing a transmittable disease?
IMO
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ItsStillTheWord
Talk about brainwashed.
There must have been some hurt and/or dysfunction somewhere, for this to have happened.
What was the age difference.
(or perverted - birds of a feather)
[This message was edited by ItsStillTheWord on November 20, 2003 at 10:01.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
I dunno 25 years?
I thought DM was attractive and pretty cool, She did not need to DO that. IMO, she had to be talked into it with weird doctrine and a powerful person or something.
A lot of those girls were attracive people not in need of an old fat man. But those that went back for more, were convinced they were being blessed and blessing this married fat cult leader. Go figure!
Whatever, it gives me a headache to try and put myself in their shoes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i believe the words were (from veepee to lcee) along the lines -- 'you have to learn to loosen up in this category of your life'
and then i think -- 'if you're really going to bless people' or minister or lead or do something for god
(not exact quote but close)
i can't remember if i was told this one-on-one or in a group meeting
anyone else recall ?
?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
to mark ~
YES?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hope R.
Yeah, exie - I remember that first "loosen up" line VP hit LCM with. I didn't get that it meant sex, though - and agreed with it. LCM was a wee bit uptight back then and I thought loosening up was a good thing!
Dot - when I first met DM at HQ's in the early 70's she was adorable! A real California girl - thin, tan and sun-bleached blonde. I guess she spent too much time with Wanda and the other farmer's daughters and started to morph into one.
Hope R. color>size>face>
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
you're right hope but i know he told him to loosen up in "that" area also
and yeah donna oh man
rosie rubbed off on her
;)-->
?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wyteduv58
Just like exxie said.....YEP!!!!!!!!!!
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Dear M&A,
Yes, the Corps was definitely about obedience to Wierwille. I knew going in that it was to be about discipline, but having been trained to be a professional dancer at the college level, I did not find the discipline aspects especially difficult. (Granted, I couldn't participate in everything, because I was pregnant in my in-res year.)
I had thought that there would be in-depth training in The Word. I was disappointed. Some classes were rehashes of classes everyone had already taken, like CF&S, etc. The public speaking course by Bill Maize was only marginally Christian, and if you'd read How to Win Friends and the Memory Book, you already knew most of it. The Christian Counseling course should not have made anyone think that they were competent to counsel anyone with a problem more difficult than a hangnail. And I still shake my head over the Reflections gal, teaching us how to look our best, saying, "I wore these shoes even though they don't fit my feet now that I'm pregnant, but I like the way they make my ankles look thin...."
-->! VPW was into his "literal translation according to usage" phase, which wasn't a literal translation at all, but his private interpretation of what he wanted to emphasize in each verse.
But the biggest surprises I got there were the lack of loving interest shown us by leadership, and the huge amount of attention given to Wierwille whenever he visited, even though he'd said to us once that he wished he could come and go without fanfare. I had a distict impression at the time that many of us were being kind to one another in spite of leadership. And I have more than one recollection of elder Corps lording their status over us. When VP came to visit IC, we all had to clean extra, the kitchen cooked special foods by a gourmet chef that the rest of us didn't ever see, and whoever was in charge of VP's living quarters had a long list of things that had to be done precisely, right down to the mint on the pillow.
I knew I was getting a special dispensation to be there, being pregnant, so I kept quiet, mostly. (Except I did ask VP about the special treatment he got, and he dismissed the question.) But it was the beginning of the end of my involvement in TWI, as I saw for the first time that things were corrupt at the top.
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkedAndAvoided
Shaz:
That pretty much explains everything I suspected about the Corps. I was in for a year and before that was allowed to attend some of the classes the Corps took, kind of like auditing a course, or in this case, the Corps. It was fun for me the outsider at the time, but I remember academic classes were lacking and it was mostly about doing work for the farm and the ministry, mainly menial jobs. When I became an "insider", I was shocked at the low level of heart involved, the reproof and abuse, (correction was abuse and not handled in a loving way), shocked at the elitist attitude of the leaders, shocked at brothers and sisters in the Corps reporting mild infractions on each other, and watched as the hard-heartedness was taught to me and others. I became an abusive fellowship coordinator in my area. I began with 15 people and lost them all. After leaving TWI, I apologized to all of them. I was surprised and very moved when all 15 forgave me, the women and men shaking my hand and giving me hugs. I couldn't bear what I had done to these people. I had a lot of grief over what I had done. I feel better today about it because of them. Simply put, the followers were better leaders than I. It is an example I will remember for the rest of my life.
Marked and Avoided
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hope R.
Exie - I now know that VP meant sex when he said that to LCM. At the time, I was too naive (read stoopid) to see it...
Denial is not a river in Egypt...
Hope R. color>size>face>
Link to comment
Share on other sites
alfakat
and Hope, and others, let's face it: Craig was a rather unimaginative, by the rules kinda fella when he came to the way... but as we now know, vic had more'n one meaning in a lot of his teaching. One for public consumption, another for those in the "know". I am not positive that all in Way Corps 1-3, maybe 4, were instructed in the "secret" doctrine but many were--sure explains a lot about the actions of more than a few even way back (72-78) when everything seemed so hunky-dory on the surface at the way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
alfa
You are so right when you mentioned the duplicity of the teachings of VP. To the "uninititated," so much of the "teaching" sounded so good, yet there was an underlying meaning to it, that many of us just weren't aware of, and didn't get. I think TWI was duplicitous right from the start, considering VP's history.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
alfakat
yes, I resisted the idea myself for a long time...but I have been "forced" to admit, after all that has been brought to light, that vp was not what he painted himself to be at all. He may have truly helped some but he apparently used far more. He was not driven by the will of God but by his own will and desires, ie, lusts...sad to say, he hurt many more deeply than he ever knew, I am sure of that....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Yeah, alfa, I know what you mean. And I have thought about this whole subject (which is the neverending story in alot of ways) very much.
While many of us thought that VP was a great teacher of "the Word," really what he was teaching was his own interpretation of that "Word." After all, in PFAL he set himself up as the great "researcher," then he built himself an empire which included a "research department" to led an air of credibility to himself and his "minstry." Then he starts a "leadership training program," which had a modicum of success, by virtue of the sheer numbers of people attracted.
In another thread, I think Kit Sober hit the nail on the head when she mentioned the de-emphasis by VPW on the cross of Christ and all that means to MOST Christians. And then, couple that fact with the "absent Christ doctrine," and the emphasis, not on Jesus Christ as our example, and the character of Christ being formed in each Christian believer, but on "men of God" (with all their shortcomings and tragic flaws) in the bible, and "the Word" (according to VPW). Then add a BIG emphasis on the "gift of holy spirit," and how that enables fallen sinners to become God's superheroes, and voila! a cult is born.
I don't think many of the "teachings" of VPW were that overtly evil or unsound on the surface, (ok there are exceptions) but weave them all together, and one gets a pretty twisted picture of Christianity.
Of course this is a pretty simplistic view in a lot of ways, but somehow it works for me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
his own interpretation of that "Word" sounds like the spirit of antichrist at work to me.
he set himself up as the great "researcher,"
he built himself an empire
de-emphasis by VPW on the cross of Christ
couple that fact with the "absent Christ doctrine,"
the emphasis, not on Jesus Christ as our example, and the character of Christ being formed in each Christian believer, but on "men of God"
God's superheroes
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ginger Tea
...of course he did.
For the sake of everyone that also believed like him, I hope they change ~
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Clicking up again for current discussions...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lightside
EX10 said:
" And then, couple that fact with the "absent Christ doctrine," and the emphasis, not on Jesus Christ as our example, and the character of Christ being formed in each Christian believer, but on "men of God" (with all their shortcomings and tragic flaws) in the bible,"
Makes me think of Hebrews 12:3
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith........"
Bullinger has a footnote, that you know VP saw (He worshipped the guy) but discarded.
The footnote says: "Looking=Looking away from (these witnesses)
Oh, remember the great way ministry "believers hall of fame"......Hebrews 11?
Yeah, we were taught to learn of them, master their believing, and seek their wisdom.
Oh yeah, don't forget to use JC at the end of your prayer.
Bullinger said and taught that although the believers of Hebrews were great witnesses, we should LOOK AWAY FROM THEM UNTO jESUS-the very master,leader,beginner,pioneer and ruler AND Perfector of FAITH. (I believe that Hebrews was written to Christian Jews and contains reproof and correction to get them to shed their religion and SEE JESUS)
VP pampered our egos with the church epistles but refused to tell us exactly where to go to see how the master of faith did it and then imitate HIM.
It's sad to say, but for years, when a issue came up, I would say, "Now Dr. Wierwille said", instead of "Now Jesus Said"
We were lead to imitate men, not the perfect man.
But we were sheep..............
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Yeah Lightside,
Good points. And another interesting thing is that the bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone, the foundation, the rock, etc.
VP claimed he built "his ministry," on the "rightly-divided Word." Ahem, excuse me, but nothing in the bible, specifically the gospels or church epistles, talks about the bible being the foundation, etc. It is always the Living Word, The Word Made Flesh, Jesus Christ.
I think this is why TWI fell apart when VP died. It was all about VPW, and his particular assortment of teachings. That's why it has crumbled.
LCM wrote a book called "VP and Me." I think it's obvious that Jesus Christ was not his Lord, VP was.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Clicking this to the top again...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eagle
An old thread raised from the dead...
Did VPW really teach LCM about having sex with the followers of the Way?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Is the Pope Catholic?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Catcup
As a reply to the question in the title of this thread:
Did VPW teach LCM on Legalism and Sexual Abuse?
I would have to say yes, and in this way:
Several times while in residence, VPW discussed legalism vs. license with us as two extremes. He discussed the "early" days of TWI when open sex and drug use was a problem in the Corps and ministry (I guess now it was the "openness" that was the problem and not the act itself!!!) and the excuses that people used. He also discussed various problems he had with leadership who had been legalistic, and what forms it took and the results of that behavior. Then he made a very interesting comment in light of the above discussion.
VPW often said that despite the "problems" that licentious behavior presented, it would not be license that would bring the ministry down. He several times emphatically stated that it would be legalism that would bring it down. I'm sure there are many Corps here, especially you old-timers, who can verify that statement.
It was a self-serving statement, for sure. But it was in fact true in the sense that it was LCM's legalism that drove the ministry into the ground, and momentum still merrily augers it in that direction.
However, it was VPW's own licentious behavior that was the setup for it to occur. If behavior swings too far in one direction, without fail it will eventually go the other way in excess.
Edited by CatcupLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.