To answer your dad's question, The Way DID mortgage its Headquarters in
1974/5 for about 18 months in order to purchase The Way College of
Emporia. It was most distasteful to Dr. Wierwille and the original
Trustees, but they felt they needed the additional campus, saw that they
would be able to pay off debt for the campus within a limited number of
months, and then they aggressively worked to eliminate that debt.
Just because it was distasteful doesn't mean it didn't happen. And didn't they borrow money against some gold bars to make payroll at some time? Didn't Uncle Harry finance the money required to renovate vee pee's home? There's a lot more borrowing that went on at hq than Bob is admitting to here. He did answer my dad's direct question, but he's lying by omission since Bob fully realized what my dad was getting at when he asked whether or not TWI had done the very things they were forbidding their people to do.
So much for leadership by example. For the record, it is very distateful to me to have to have a mortgage to pay for a home, but I felt I needed to be working toward security in my sunset years and that I needed to be contributing toward my future and my wealth rather than someone else's. I think many people who continue to follow the policy against debt that TWI claims they don't have, will find their sunset years very distasteful because they can't afford to live even at the lowest level of comfort than they do now before retiring.
Oh, and Nandon is correct, they came out with a teaching tape summarizing their "research" by rico spaghetti but the tape was given only to the wc and none of the lowly TWIts got to hear the tape. My ex got to hear it because of my insistence that TWI follow through with what they promised. By the time he got the tape, I was already so ....ed and so "out" of TWI that I didn't give a rip. I did listen to the tape and took a bunch of notes on what he said. I thought I posted them here, but maybe not. I'll go back through my notes and see what I can find.
Remember this e-mail correspondence I posted is from 2001. The tape, from what I understand, did NOT come out until 2004! So they did take more than 3 years to come up with their justification and spin on continuing to prohibit debt in any form or fashion.
Meanwhile, WAYGB, if you could please look through my former posts and either e-mail me when I posted it, or just have Bob or mr. linder bring it to the front again for everyone, I sure would appreciate it. ;)-->
There sure seems to be a lot of talk about me on this thread. ;)-->
TWI's debt policy/non-policy is the result of Craig getting ....ed about a corpse couple 2 years out of graduation, drowning in debt. It went from digging out Vee Pee's / Harry's teachings on money management to all debt being sin in a matter of weeks. The first teaching, which I believe was a corpse night, still had mortgages and student loans being considered OK, since they were an investment. It is no surprise that their current "research" backs up Craig, seeing it was done by his group of yes-men.
Like everything else, TWI's logic is backwards. Their favorite verse for it is:
quote:
Proverbs 22:7
The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower [is] servant to the lender.
Since a borrower is slave to the lender, it must be sin.
Keeping with the same logic, the poor are slave to the rich since they rule over them. Therefore, it is sin to be poor.
How about taking the verse at face value as just stating a fact? In that culture, if you did not pay back your debt to someone, you became their slave. Slavery was alive and well at this time, whether you were an Israelite or non-Israelite.
Of course, TWI has a whole host of teachings on why it is good to be a slave to God, which means being a slave to TWI. Supposedly the greatest freedom is found here. Another example of their backwards logic. Slavery, by definition, is forced servitude, against one's will. How could it be good to be a slave to TWI and not the local bank? Why doesn't TWI lend money out to their followers? Since they are already their slaves, couldn't be any harm in it.
Since slavery is quite illegal in this country now, I don’t think this verse applies very well. You can go in debt as far as you want and not be at risk of becoming someone’s permanent butler.
i rent now by choice. it takes alot of time to keep up a home . i am too busy to own a house now. i am retired {part time} and too damn busy to have house problems. the the sink leaks i call the land lord and he takes care of it.i do own a nice little house with extensive flower gardens etc. but my mom lives there rent free of course, and when her faucet leaks i call the plummer. no time to do it myself or do i want.
but as far as being debt free, witch i am,i remember years ago when i was a twit i was able to abs more when i had a morgage than when i was renting go figure the logic
well....the LC of florida thinks he is attached to ms. moneybags hersef' --Lowes heir and all.
But We have to argue here regarding crdit card debt...there are times that I have had to get medical assistance for my LD child that insurance will not pay for...We use my credit card---the way would have let you die before you used a cc. Many way followers have no insurance at all....and I have known several that did get cancer and die in whatever their local county hospital was becasue they couldn't CHARGE flying to the Mayo clinic or MD Anderson or John Hopkins or someplace they needed to be to get the kind of help they needed.
I take offense at any kind of self-righteous crap aimed at debt ...PERIOD...
This whole issue of debt is a joke...The REAL question that should be directed towards Bob Moneyhands or any of the other spit suckers with twi, is...What in the world gives them even the slightest idea that it's any of their business what anybody does with their own finances! ...Since when does the "preacher" from your church tell you what to do with your own money?...or for that matter...They expect people to be ANSWERABLE TO THEM!!! :D--> :D--> :D-->
I found the e-mails from my Dad. You can see Bob wasn't responding to any correspondence from an idiot, which may be why he was attempting to be more subtle in his manipulative attacks on me and my dad:
quote:
Not much way to do home purchases without debt... it seems... so sorry!
BUT: a couple of angles...
1. It is possible to find someone who would "self finance" the purchase...meaning they would let you pay them and at the end of some term it would belong to you. Of course, it is financing, but between individuals, which means the terms could be more favorable. In the
Orlando area I would assume there are numbers of folks who would be agreeable to such arrangements. It happens here-that I am aware- at least half-dozen or dozen times a year. It could be wealthy people who own property and prefer the monthly payment plus interest instead of putting money into CDs or the stock market. Oftentimes they can get a better return, too. Or, someone who inherited property and just don't want to sell in the regular real estate market and pay commissions, etc. They don't need the property but don't want to "cash out" right now.
2. The "main most" reason for purchasing homes in the USA is that the interest paid is tax deductible...where it is not for other personal
debt. That makes home purchasing more important in tax planning. The question becomes, do you want to pay taxes to the government, or legally
avoid that and build your own net worth - because you are paying for something you can own. Plus, when you have that mortgage tax deduction, then it makes other deductions get to IRS's hurdles for counting on the tax return...further legally aiding the individual household... i.e. monetary gifts to The Way would be tax deductible gifts (or, to a university, United Way, Red Cross, Boy Scouts, etc....)
The Main Issue is: do you want to pay money unnecessarily to the government, or do something that benefits you personally and creates wealth for you?
Here's a "for instance": Let's assume your rent is $850/month. What that gets you is a place to live in someone else's property. Nothing more. Now, what if you were paying a mortgage payment of $850/month?
...
What would $850/month "buy"? .... A reasonable interest rate right now would be 7. 25% for a regular 30 year mortgage. So, $850/mo, for 30 years, at 7.25% ... would finance a purchase of $124,600. In other
words, a payment of $850/mo for 30 years would pay a loan of $124,600 to zero.
Interest the first year would be slightly less than $9000. If you are paying taxes in the 30% tax bracket that means you've just reduced
your "tax bill" by about $2700 (30% X $9000)... more bluntly... if you are currently getting a tax refund, then take that amount and add $2700 to it. You can stand that, can't you? Can't do that if you rent.
Two raps on home mortgages.... both of which I think are bogus in this day-and-time.
a.) over a 30 year period you will pay total interest on the $124,600 borrowed of $181,400. But, the interest has been tax deductible over that time. If this bothers you a lot, invest the tax savings over that time and see what IT is worth in the 30 years! But, mainly, that argument is so much baloney... AT LEAST at the end of the 30 years you own something. .... by renting, you keep putting money in the pocket of the person owning the house. ...and you own nothing.
b.) what if the property declines in value and I have to take a loss when I sell?
That could happen, and has in the recent past in different parts of the USA. But, I wouldn't count on that happening in your area
anytime soon...period! Look at little ole S*****ville: We paid $189,000 for our house in 1991. Today we owe about $109,000, and our
house would sell tomorrow for at least $310,000... and we've had the tax deduction all along!
So, to me the case for home ownership is a no-brainer. There are bunches of good mortgage programs out there - especially for "first
time" home owners... little or no downpayment, low closing costs, etc.
....
the average length of time a particular home mortgage is outstanding, by the way, is 7 or 8 years. So, people don't get a loan and live in the same house forever... they move. Surprise!! So, if the values are going up, it gives you an opportunity to "tap into" that gain at some interval...you know, your Mom and I have owned 3 houses in little S*****ville!!
Well, hope this is of some value... let me know if you have other questions... Love, Dad
Here's my Daddy's response to the first response from Bob. The second e-mail from Bob, I think was just too ridiculous and proved that it was pointless to continue any correspondence with him on the matter:
quote:
Hi!! Well, I've seen debt get folks in big trouble... so, generally being very careful with it is a good idea! Home ownership is a little different, in that you have the double whammy of tax deduction and building wealth. I vote for that!!
... not for me to be "Biblical" in the mortgage debt issue! But, the entire banking industry from the beginnings of commerce in the world is predicated on those having wealth (deposits) keeping that wealth in one spot (a bank) for safe keeping and earnings (interest earned), and the bank knowing those with deposits do not want all their wealth at one
time can then "loan" the other's wealth to those needing "wealth" ... hence, loans.
We "buy" funds from folks, and "sell" to others... a form of commerce, just like going to the grocery store. Sorry, I don't buy into the notion that debt, in and of itself, is bad. Mismanagement of debt is bad. If all felt that debt is bad, there would be no banking industry!
We "loan" money lots of different ways... besides "people to people"
...anytime someone, or something, needs funds TODAY for something, but can only pay for it with TOMORROW's money - it's a debt. For instance, the US Government sells US Treasury Securities to do it's important day-to-day work... like building highways, buying military equipment, building government office buildings, etc. That sort of borrowing is in
the papers often - it's called the National Debt !! (ever hear Gore or Bush talk about that?) .... The State of Florida, or the City of W***** create debt to do things government should do for its constituencies -
again, to build highways, to build schools ...hey, to buy police cars.
The source of repayment is taxes... what we all pay. Sometime those kinds of debt are called Bonds... or, Indenture Agreements... not
always called flat-out loans... but, that is really what they are.
Here's a better question... ask someone if The Way has ever borrowed any money for that Ohio facility... by the pictures that is a very nice
place! My guess... if not now, at some time in the past the organization has borrowed money for that facility.
The very question to me, again, is Managing Debt... not that debt itself is bad. Beyond your tithe your funds are yours to manage... some do that better than others. (after all, if it were not for "money", how would we manage our lives? ... by bartering... not very efficient...).
Remember,if you purchase something that will last for, and have value after 30 years, then it is appropriate to pay for it over that same 30 years. The premise of home mortgages...
Trying to get an owner to do the "self financing" is not a bad deal...sort of a "rent to own" theory. Seems that should pass muster.
If the amount of monthly payment is roughly the same as true rent, and the "rent to own" idea positively affects the parishioner - then that seems to be a good thing.
Belle ... great stuff from your dad! here is how I look at the paying all the interest thing on a thirty year mortgage.
You buy a house, yo make the payments, you get to deduct the interest, in 30 years you own the place.
You rent for 30 years. You pay the landlord's interest, he gets the tax break and in 30 years, HE owns the place and you have a nice stack of receipts for rent paid and no tax break from the interest. Which should I choose...hmmmm
Thanks Belle, that's good information. I appreciate you posting it.
At the expense of picking at Bobanar's emails, I have to say again, one of the rubs in the emails is that Bob seems to carry the tone that while you, having a Dad who can ably advise and share good quality information with you, the average Way Beleaver doesn't, or wont' or can't.
In fact, any person so inclined can do their homework, read up, ask around, get advise, go to a bank, etc. etc. etc and get the information they need to make an infomed decision.
They don't need the Way, or Bob, to provide that. It might certainly help if the Way could ever get their stories straight on what the bible says, but in the meantime there are plenty of Christiain churches and ministries who DO have, at the very least, information to share based on sound financial info and biblical information. So if that's what a person wants they don't need to wait till hell freezes over and the Way's Special Research Group manages to come up with something.
There's lots of information available, and a person would probably do better to NOT have a Certified Way Leader holding their hand in the whole process.
The last couple years I was in the Way I noticed how little information and experience there was amongst Way people who had followed Way advice in regards to financial affairs. If Way people are ignorant and incapable it isn't because the information and guidance isn't available. It's because they're being directed away from it. Again, hit or miss, depending on where a person lives and fellowships, but overall that was the state of Way World.
There sure seems to be a lot of talk about me on this thread.
If you'd be honest and straightforward we wouldn't have to dedicate a whole thread to you, Mr. Eastwood! ;)-->
So this whole thing got started because of one couple? Instead of dealing with the one couple on an individual basis, let's make a wide sweeping exaggerated policy and find verses we can spin to prove our point.
This is also how the no gift policy got started, too, isn't it?
Thanks, Alfakat and Socks! It really is just plain common horse sense, isn't it? I'm sure my Daddy was shaking his head while answering my questions. I think, though, that's when he and my mom started having some hope that I was coming around and starting to pass on the kool-aid.
quote:
In fact, any person so inclined can do their homework, read up, ask around, get advise, go to a bank, etc. etc. etc and get the information they need to make an infomed decision.
They don't need the Way, or Bob, to provide that.
Socks, that is so true in so many areas. I can't tell you how stupid I feel in certain situations that come up these days. I thought I knew a lot or enough about certain subjects thanks to TWI, but since being out I'm realizing how insulated I really was from the real world despite living right smack dab in the middle of it. Major blinders on my eyes!!
I'm learning that I can find information, advice and what-not on my own and actually make wise decisions and take care of myself without having to "run it by" someone for permission or validation.
Belle, that's the truth. Myself, I relied on the Way for most of what I trusted...that's the key word. I trusted the information I was given, not blindly, but as "friendly" guidance.
Most of what was taught or dealt with back in the 70's was basic stuff, pretty sound. Live on what you earn. Don't finance for frivolous non-essentials. Don't go into debt and pay 15 per cent interest to buy a new stereo, etc. Save to buy. Etc. Etc. That was a good place to start, for anyone.
But we very quickly grew up. Within 10 years, we started having families, children, schooling, etc. etc. Our extended families grew, got older, etc. etc. There were a great many topic and issues that we could have started training in to PREPARE us for the challenges and opportunities that were going to come over the years and cycles of life. Some of these things were proposed, but frowned upon as wastes of time. Why talk about financial interests when you can be teaching "the Word"? The Way had our ears and hearts for many years. How much of this kind of thing was done, presented, encouraged, fronted? The only way to do it was on a local level. But I can say from first hand experience if you tried to branch out in to other areas you'd get push back for getting too "off the mark" of the target.
Problem - for awhile we were good at "getting people". But what about "living with them", for 50 years?
That's what bugs me so about the Way's "teaching" ministry and how it's gone. They've had millions of dollars, years of time, 1000's of people...so many resources, so rich a field to till. But they lack one, vital, essential thing -
Vision.
They have a small vision, based on a very small sickly view of what it means, or could mean, to be a Christian alive today. So they take all those resources and meander around, no sense of urgency or responsibility to the people they have whose lives are ticking, ticking, ticking along one day at a time. They define "underachiever".
But, off that. Your Dad sounds like a really great guy, he does. You must have a great family. It's good to see. It really is.
That's what bugs me so about the Way's "teaching" ministry and how it's gone. They've had millions of dollars, years of time, 1000's of people...so many resources, so rich a field to till. But they lack one, vital, essential thing -
Vision.
They have a small vision, based on a very small sickly view of what it means, or could mean, to be a Christian alive today. So they take all those resources and meander around, no sense of urgency or responsibility to the people they have whose lives are ticking, ticking, ticking along one day at a time.
socks......this kinda stuff bugged me too.
The word that comes to my mind is.....compassion.
The lack of compassion yields indifference or unwillingness to help [Luke 10:30-32]. Why couldn't twi's trustees SEE the needs of the people?? And, see the ticking, ticking hands of time? Were they blinded by their own vanity?
Yeah, vaunted with pride....it's hard to see anything else.
Maybe. Vanity turns the mirror inwards and marvels at nothing. Humility sees the nothingness and is broken by it. Love fills the emptiness with it's light and sheds abroad to everything near it. True love won't ignore or refuse, it will recognize and fill from a source that never goes dry.
"You rent for 30 years. You pay the landlord's interest, he gets the tax break and in 30 years, HE owns the place and you have a nice stack of receipts for rent paid and no tax break from the interest. Which should I choose...hmmmm"
Another consideration.
When a rental-building's mortgage is paid-off, it can be re-financed and that money can be blown doing something else. To spend tonnes of money and it still be tax-free, Yahh.
We just re-financedour placed in Ct, and used the money to purchase our retirement home in Me.
Even the 'new' mortgage will be paid-off by the renters.
We "loan" money lots of different ways... besides "people to people" ...anytime someone, or something, needs funds TODAY for something, but can only pay for it with TOMORROW's money - it's a debt.
Well that is a good definition of debt, but it doesn't answer the question whether or not debt is good or bad. Actually it is neither. Most people's financial problems are caused by going along with the crowd and trying to keep up with the Joneses. But the real reason people struggle financially is largely due to the fact they do not know the difference between an asset and a liability. That may sound absurdly simple, but most people have no idea how profound this rule really is. Accountants and financial professionals do not even agree with these definitions, the main reason for the arguement over debt among people. Well if you really want to be confused, look up the words "asset" and "liability" in the dictionary. The definitions may sound good to a trained accountant, but for the average person it makes no sense.
Accounting is probably the most boring subject in the world and it may also be the most confusing. But if a person wants to be rich it could be the most important subject. The only way to teach a boring and confusing subject is to make it simple. In the simplest terms, assets put money into your pocket while liabilites take it out. What is the simplest is usually the most useable. Illiteracy both in numbers and words is the foundation of financial struggle. The rich are rich because they are more literate in areas than those people who struggle financially. To become rich and maintain wealth one finds it important to be financially literate in both words as well as numbers.
Rich people aquire assets. Sometimes they borrow money to do that. The question becomes, are they unwise for doing so? Not when they aquire assets when one is defining assets in its simplest term. The poor and the middle class aquire liabilities, but they think they are assets. Some even borrow money to do that. This is the reason they are poor, stay poor, and become even more poor.
Words and the definitions of words mean very little. That's the reason for doctrinal debates. What people often forget is what matters the most - and it's the story that counts. When dealing with finances numbers alone mean little, just as words alone mean little. In financial reporting reading numbers is looking for the plot, the story - the story where the cash is flowing. In 80 percent of most families the financial story is a story of working hard in an effort to get ahead. It's not because they don't make money, but because most spend their lives buying liabilities instead of assets. It's the cash flow that tells the story. It is the story of how a person handles their money, what they do after they get the money in their hands.
I hear, "Where do I start? I'm in debt so I need to make more money." But more money will often not solve the problem, in fact, it may actually accelerate the problem. Money often makes obvious our tragic human flaws. Money often puts a spotlight on what we do not know. That is why you hear of these people who often come into a sudden windfall of cash - an inheritance, a pay raise, or lottery winnings soon return to the same financial mess, if not a worse mess they were in before they received the money. Money accentuates the cash flow pattern running through your head. If your pattern is to spend everything you get, most likely an increase in cash will just result in an increase in spending. Thus the saying, "A fool and his money is one big party."
Many people believe their home is their biggest asset. Now I realize for many people it is their dream as well as their largest investment, and owning your own home is certainly better than nothing. If I were to buy a bigger home - a more flashy house it would not be an asset, it would be a liability since it would take more money out of my pocket. So here is the argument I put forth. I don't expect most people to agree with it because a nice home is an emotional thing. When it comes to money, high emotions tend to lower financial intelligence. From personal experience money has a way of making every decision emotional.
1. Most people work all their lives paying for a home they never own. In other words, most people buy a new house every so many years, each time incurring a 30 year loan to pay off the previous one.
2. Even though people receive a tax deduction for interest on mortgage payments, they pay for all their other expenses with after-tax dollars - even after they pay off their mortgage.
3. Property taxes. Property taxes usually increase. When a couple retires this can even put even a more financial strain on their budget and the strain can make people feel forced to move.
4. Houses do not always go up in value. There are people who owe close to a million dollars for a house that today will only sell for $700,000.00.
5. The greatest loss of all is from missed opportunities. If all your money is tied up in your house, you may be forced to work harder because your money continually goes out the expense column in property taxes, insurance, maintenance and utilities. All too often a house only serves as a vehicle for incurring a home-equity loan to pay for mounting expenses - expenses that are liabilities and not assets.
The end result in making a decision to own a house in lieu of starting an investment portfolio early on impacts an individual in at least the following three ways:
1. Loss of time, during which other assets could have grown in value.
2. Loss of additional capital, which could have been invested instead of paying for high maintenance expenses directly related to the purchase of the house.
3. Loss of education. Too often, people count their house, savings and retirement plan as all they have in their asset column. Because they have no money to invest, they simply do not invest. What this does is cost them investment experience. Most never become what the investment world calls a "sophisticated investor". And the best investments are usually sold to the "sophisticated investors," who then turn around and sell them to those who play it safe.
I certainly am not saying, "Don't buy a house." What I am saying is, "Understand the difference between an asset and a liability. When you want a bigger house, first buy the assets that will generate the cash flow to pay for the house otherwise your whole life will be spent in the "rat-race." Your expenses will always seem to keep up with your income, never allowing you to invest in assets. As a result, your liabilities such as your mortgage and credit card debts will usually become larger than your assets.
The middle class always finds itself in a constant state of financial struggle. Their primary income is through wages, and as their wages increase so do their taxes. Their expenses tend to increase in equal increments as their wages increase; hence the phrase, "the rat-race." They treat their home as their primary asset instead of investing in income-producing assets. The pattern of treating your home as an investment and the philosophy that a pay raise means you can purchase a larger home or spend more is the foundation of today's debt-ridden society. This process of increased spending throws families into greater debt and into more financial uncertainty, even though they may be advancing in their jobs and receiving pay raises on a regular basis. In reality it is nothing more than high risk living caused by weak financial education.
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Ham
Too polite. Tell us what you really feel, heh heh.
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nandon
the way still "working" the debt thing??
no they aren't..
no debt is twi's policy.
yup, policy. you have a mortgage you can't fun a fellowship, or take certain classes,
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igotout
LCM said:
Yes it has. What are you living in now at your age and what will you have to leave your children?
IF you had the sense to buy a home years ago it would have been paid for by now and would have most assuredly doubled or tripled in value.
I'd say you have been hurt by that decision. Better hurry now. Its late in the game. Homes in Toledo are going up each year.
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Jim
Yawn.
I have over $400,000 in equity in my house and owe about $80,000.
I'd still renting if I followed their "guidelines"
Scrw that.
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Belle
Just because it was distasteful doesn't mean it didn't happen. And didn't they borrow money against some gold bars to make payroll at some time? Didn't Uncle Harry finance the money required to renovate vee pee's home? There's a lot more borrowing that went on at hq than Bob is admitting to here. He did answer my dad's direct question, but he's lying by omission since Bob fully realized what my dad was getting at when he asked whether or not TWI had done the very things they were forbidding their people to do.
So much for leadership by example. For the record, it is very distateful to me to have to have a mortgage to pay for a home, but I felt I needed to be working toward security in my sunset years and that I needed to be contributing toward my future and my wealth rather than someone else's. I think many people who continue to follow the policy against debt that TWI claims they don't have, will find their sunset years very distasteful because they can't afford to live even at the lowest level of comfort than they do now before retiring.
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Belle
Oh, and Nandon is correct, they came out with a teaching tape summarizing their "research" by rico spaghetti but the tape was given only to the wc and none of the lowly TWIts got to hear the tape. My ex got to hear it because of my insistence that TWI follow through with what they promised. By the time he got the tape, I was already so ....ed and so "out" of TWI that I didn't give a rip. I did listen to the tape and took a bunch of notes on what he said. I thought I posted them here, but maybe not. I'll go back through my notes and see what I can find.
Remember this e-mail correspondence I posted is from 2001. The tape, from what I understand, did NOT come out until 2004! So they did take more than 3 years to come up with their justification and spin on continuing to prohibit debt in any form or fashion.
Meanwhile, WAYGB, if you could please look through my former posts and either e-mail me when I posted it, or just have Bob or mr. linder bring it to the front again for everyone, I sure would appreciate it.
;)-->
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Bob
There sure seems to be a lot of talk about me on this thread.
;)-->
TWI's debt policy/non-policy is the result of Craig getting ....ed about a corpse couple 2 years out of graduation, drowning in debt. It went from digging out Vee Pee's / Harry's teachings on money management to all debt being sin in a matter of weeks. The first teaching, which I believe was a corpse night, still had mortgages and student loans being considered OK, since they were an investment. It is no surprise that their current "research" backs up Craig, seeing it was done by his group of yes-men.
Like everything else, TWI's logic is backwards. Their favorite verse for it is:
Since a borrower is slave to the lender, it must be sin.
Keeping with the same logic, the poor are slave to the rich since they rule over them. Therefore, it is sin to be poor.
How about taking the verse at face value as just stating a fact? In that culture, if you did not pay back your debt to someone, you became their slave. Slavery was alive and well at this time, whether you were an Israelite or non-Israelite.
Of course, TWI has a whole host of teachings on why it is good to be a slave to God, which means being a slave to TWI. Supposedly the greatest freedom is found here. Another example of their backwards logic. Slavery, by definition, is forced servitude, against one's will. How could it be good to be a slave to TWI and not the local bank? Why doesn't TWI lend money out to their followers? Since they are already their slaves, couldn't be any harm in it.
Since slavery is quite illegal in this country now, I don’t think this verse applies very well. You can go in debt as far as you want and not be at risk of becoming someone’s permanent butler.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i have been on both sides of the own rent coin.
i rent now by choice. it takes alot of time to keep up a home . i am too busy to own a house now. i am retired {part time} and too damn busy to have house problems. the the sink leaks i call the land lord and he takes care of it.i do own a nice little house with extensive flower gardens etc. but my mom lives there rent free of course, and when her faucet leaks i call the plummer. no time to do it myself or do i want.
but as far as being debt free, witch i am,i remember years ago when i was a twit i was able to abs more when i had a morgage than when i was renting go figure the logic
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DaddyHoundog
well....the LC of florida thinks he is attached to ms. moneybags hersef' --Lowes heir and all.
But We have to argue here regarding crdit card debt...there are times that I have had to get medical assistance for my LD child that insurance will not pay for...We use my credit card---the way would have let you die before you used a cc. Many way followers have no insurance at all....and I have known several that did get cancer and die in whatever their local county hospital was becasue they couldn't CHARGE flying to the Mayo clinic or MD Anderson or John Hopkins or someplace they needed to be to get the kind of help they needed.
I take offense at any kind of self-righteous crap aimed at debt ...PERIOD...
Lianne Pierce - Daddy's wife
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GrouchoMarxJr
This whole issue of debt is a joke...The REAL question that should be directed towards Bob Moneyhands or any of the other spit suckers with twi, is...What in the world gives them even the slightest idea that it's any of their business what anybody does with their own finances!
...Since when does the "preacher" from your church tell you what to do with your own money?...or for that matter...They expect people to be ANSWERABLE TO THEM!!! 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
Hey Bob...Stick it in your ear!
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nandon
marsha is an heir to lowes?
the department store?
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Steve!
Not Marsha - Dottie Moneyhands.
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Belle
I found the e-mails from my Dad. You can see Bob wasn't responding to any correspondence from an idiot, which may be why he was attempting to be more subtle in his manipulative attacks on me and my dad:
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Belle
Here's my Daddy's response to the first response from Bob. The second e-mail from Bob, I think was just too ridiculous and proved that it was pointless to continue any correspondence with him on the matter:
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Hope R.
Lianne - check your PT's...
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alfakat
Belle ... great stuff from your dad! here is how I look at the paying all the interest thing on a thirty year mortgage.
You buy a house, yo make the payments, you get to deduct the interest, in 30 years you own the place.
You rent for 30 years. You pay the landlord's interest, he gets the tax break and in 30 years, HE owns the place and you have a nice stack of receipts for rent paid and no tax break from the interest. Which should I choose...hmmmm
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socks
Thanks Belle, that's good information. I appreciate you posting it.
At the expense of picking at Bobanar's emails, I have to say again, one of the rubs in the emails is that Bob seems to carry the tone that while you, having a Dad who can ably advise and share good quality information with you, the average Way Beleaver doesn't, or wont' or can't.
In fact, any person so inclined can do their homework, read up, ask around, get advise, go to a bank, etc. etc. etc and get the information they need to make an infomed decision.
They don't need the Way, or Bob, to provide that. It might certainly help if the Way could ever get their stories straight on what the bible says, but in the meantime there are plenty of Christiain churches and ministries who DO have, at the very least, information to share based on sound financial info and biblical information. So if that's what a person wants they don't need to wait till hell freezes over and the Way's Special Research Group manages to come up with something.
There's lots of information available, and a person would probably do better to NOT have a Certified Way Leader holding their hand in the whole process.
The last couple years I was in the Way I noticed how little information and experience there was amongst Way people who had followed Way advice in regards to financial affairs. If Way people are ignorant and incapable it isn't because the information and guidance isn't available. It's because they're being directed away from it. Again, hit or miss, depending on where a person lives and fellowships, but overall that was the state of Way World.
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Belle
If you'd be honest and straightforward we wouldn't have to dedicate a whole thread to you, Mr. Eastwood!
;)-->
So this whole thing got started because of one couple? Instead of dealing with the one couple on an individual basis, let's make a wide sweeping exaggerated policy and find verses we can spin to prove our point.
This is also how the no gift policy got started, too, isn't it?
Thanks, Alfakat and Socks! It really is just plain common horse sense, isn't it? I'm sure my Daddy was shaking his head while answering my questions. I think, though, that's when he and my mom started having some hope that I was coming around and starting to pass on the kool-aid.
Socks, that is so true in so many areas. I can't tell you how stupid I feel in certain situations that come up these days. I thought I knew a lot or enough about certain subjects thanks to TWI, but since being out I'm realizing how insulated I really was from the real world despite living right smack dab in the middle of it. Major blinders on my eyes!!
I'm learning that I can find information, advice and what-not on my own and actually make wise decisions and take care of myself without having to "run it by" someone for permission or validation.
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socks
Belle, that's the truth. Myself, I relied on the Way for most of what I trusted...that's the key word. I trusted the information I was given, not blindly, but as "friendly" guidance.
Most of what was taught or dealt with back in the 70's was basic stuff, pretty sound. Live on what you earn. Don't finance for frivolous non-essentials. Don't go into debt and pay 15 per cent interest to buy a new stereo, etc. Save to buy. Etc. Etc. That was a good place to start, for anyone.
But we very quickly grew up. Within 10 years, we started having families, children, schooling, etc. etc. Our extended families grew, got older, etc. etc. There were a great many topic and issues that we could have started training in to PREPARE us for the challenges and opportunities that were going to come over the years and cycles of life. Some of these things were proposed, but frowned upon as wastes of time. Why talk about financial interests when you can be teaching "the Word"? The Way had our ears and hearts for many years. How much of this kind of thing was done, presented, encouraged, fronted? The only way to do it was on a local level. But I can say from first hand experience if you tried to branch out in to other areas you'd get push back for getting too "off the mark" of the target.
Problem - for awhile we were good at "getting people". But what about "living with them", for 50 years?
That's what bugs me so about the Way's "teaching" ministry and how it's gone. They've had millions of dollars, years of time, 1000's of people...so many resources, so rich a field to till. But they lack one, vital, essential thing -
Vision.
They have a small vision, based on a very small sickly view of what it means, or could mean, to be a Christian alive today. So they take all those resources and meander around, no sense of urgency or responsibility to the people they have whose lives are ticking, ticking, ticking along one day at a time. They define "underachiever".
But, off that. Your Dad sounds like a really great guy, he does. You must have a great family. It's good to see. It really is.
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skyrider
socks......this kinda stuff bugged me too.
The word that comes to my mind is.....compassion.
The lack of compassion yields indifference or unwillingness to help [Luke 10:30-32]. Why couldn't twi's trustees SEE the needs of the people?? And, see the ticking, ticking hands of time? Were they blinded by their own vanity?
Yeah, vaunted with pride....it's hard to see anything else.
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socks
Maybe. Vanity turns the mirror inwards and marvels at nothing. Humility sees the nothingness and is broken by it. Love fills the emptiness with it's light and sheds abroad to everything near it. True love won't ignore or refuse, it will recognize and fill from a source that never goes dry.
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Galen
alfakat:
"You rent for 30 years. You pay the landlord's interest, he gets the tax break and in 30 years, HE owns the place and you have a nice stack of receipts for rent paid and no tax break from the interest. Which should I choose...hmmmm"
Another consideration.
When a rental-building's mortgage is paid-off, it can be re-financed and that money can be blown doing something else. To spend tonnes of money and it still be tax-free, Yahh.
We just re-financedour placed in Ct, and used the money to purchase our retirement home in Me.
Even the 'new' mortgage will be paid-off by the renters.
:-)
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skyrider
Moneyhands' soupy advice should be linked on the front page of GS.....titled under, Region Guy Regurgitates Rhetoric.
Bob's emails to Belle give telling insight to a system of extortion. And, biblical "research" on crutches and welfare.
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What The Hay
Well that is a good definition of debt, but it doesn't answer the question whether or not debt is good or bad. Actually it is neither. Most people's financial problems are caused by going along with the crowd and trying to keep up with the Joneses. But the real reason people struggle financially is largely due to the fact they do not know the difference between an asset and a liability. That may sound absurdly simple, but most people have no idea how profound this rule really is. Accountants and financial professionals do not even agree with these definitions, the main reason for the arguement over debt among people. Well if you really want to be confused, look up the words "asset" and "liability" in the dictionary. The definitions may sound good to a trained accountant, but for the average person it makes no sense.
Accounting is probably the most boring subject in the world and it may also be the most confusing. But if a person wants to be rich it could be the most important subject. The only way to teach a boring and confusing subject is to make it simple. In the simplest terms, assets put money into your pocket while liabilites take it out. What is the simplest is usually the most useable. Illiteracy both in numbers and words is the foundation of financial struggle. The rich are rich because they are more literate in areas than those people who struggle financially. To become rich and maintain wealth one finds it important to be financially literate in both words as well as numbers.
Rich people aquire assets. Sometimes they borrow money to do that. The question becomes, are they unwise for doing so? Not when they aquire assets when one is defining assets in its simplest term. The poor and the middle class aquire liabilities, but they think they are assets. Some even borrow money to do that. This is the reason they are poor, stay poor, and become even more poor.
Words and the definitions of words mean very little. That's the reason for doctrinal debates. What people often forget is what matters the most - and it's the story that counts. When dealing with finances numbers alone mean little, just as words alone mean little. In financial reporting reading numbers is looking for the plot, the story - the story where the cash is flowing. In 80 percent of most families the financial story is a story of working hard in an effort to get ahead. It's not because they don't make money, but because most spend their lives buying liabilities instead of assets. It's the cash flow that tells the story. It is the story of how a person handles their money, what they do after they get the money in their hands.
I hear, "Where do I start? I'm in debt so I need to make more money." But more money will often not solve the problem, in fact, it may actually accelerate the problem. Money often makes obvious our tragic human flaws. Money often puts a spotlight on what we do not know. That is why you hear of these people who often come into a sudden windfall of cash - an inheritance, a pay raise, or lottery winnings soon return to the same financial mess, if not a worse mess they were in before they received the money. Money accentuates the cash flow pattern running through your head. If your pattern is to spend everything you get, most likely an increase in cash will just result in an increase in spending. Thus the saying, "A fool and his money is one big party."
Many people believe their home is their biggest asset. Now I realize for many people it is their dream as well as their largest investment, and owning your own home is certainly better than nothing. If I were to buy a bigger home - a more flashy house it would not be an asset, it would be a liability since it would take more money out of my pocket. So here is the argument I put forth. I don't expect most people to agree with it because a nice home is an emotional thing. When it comes to money, high emotions tend to lower financial intelligence. From personal experience money has a way of making every decision emotional.
1. Most people work all their lives paying for a home they never own. In other words, most people buy a new house every so many years, each time incurring a 30 year loan to pay off the previous one.
2. Even though people receive a tax deduction for interest on mortgage payments, they pay for all their other expenses with after-tax dollars - even after they pay off their mortgage.
3. Property taxes. Property taxes usually increase. When a couple retires this can even put even a more financial strain on their budget and the strain can make people feel forced to move.
4. Houses do not always go up in value. There are people who owe close to a million dollars for a house that today will only sell for $700,000.00.
5. The greatest loss of all is from missed opportunities. If all your money is tied up in your house, you may be forced to work harder because your money continually goes out the expense column in property taxes, insurance, maintenance and utilities. All too often a house only serves as a vehicle for incurring a home-equity loan to pay for mounting expenses - expenses that are liabilities and not assets.
The end result in making a decision to own a house in lieu of starting an investment portfolio early on impacts an individual in at least the following three ways:
1. Loss of time, during which other assets could have grown in value.
2. Loss of additional capital, which could have been invested instead of paying for high maintenance expenses directly related to the purchase of the house.
3. Loss of education. Too often, people count their house, savings and retirement plan as all they have in their asset column. Because they have no money to invest, they simply do not invest. What this does is cost them investment experience. Most never become what the investment world calls a "sophisticated investor". And the best investments are usually sold to the "sophisticated investors," who then turn around and sell them to those who play it safe.
I certainly am not saying, "Don't buy a house." What I am saying is, "Understand the difference between an asset and a liability. When you want a bigger house, first buy the assets that will generate the cash flow to pay for the house otherwise your whole life will be spent in the "rat-race." Your expenses will always seem to keep up with your income, never allowing you to invest in assets. As a result, your liabilities such as your mortgage and credit card debts will usually become larger than your assets.
The middle class always finds itself in a constant state of financial struggle. Their primary income is through wages, and as their wages increase so do their taxes. Their expenses tend to increase in equal increments as their wages increase; hence the phrase, "the rat-race." They treat their home as their primary asset instead of investing in income-producing assets. The pattern of treating your home as an investment and the philosophy that a pay raise means you can purchase a larger home or spend more is the foundation of today's debt-ridden society. This process of increased spending throws families into greater debt and into more financial uncertainty, even though they may be advancing in their jobs and receiving pay raises on a regular basis. In reality it is nothing more than high risk living caused by weak financial education.
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