To answer your dad's question, The Way DID mortgage its Headquarters in
1974/5 for about 18 months in order to purchase The Way College of
Emporia. It was most distasteful to Dr. Wierwille and the original
Trustees, but they felt they needed the additional campus, saw that they
would be able to pay off debt for the campus within a limited number of
months, and then they aggressively worked to eliminate that debt. When
the debt was paid off, Dr. Wierwille announced it to those of us on Staff
at the time. Then he cut up the mortgage paper into small pieces and
distributed one piece to each in-residence Way Corps person. He said
that he wanted that to remind them to never mortgage our Headquarters
again.
Our ministry acknowledges that borrowing takes place and it is talked
about in the old testament. We further acknowledge that the commerce
practices and trade practices of antiquity up until today are time-tested
and universally accepted.
What we have taught is that the follower of the Lord Jesus Christ needs
to be in a position of strength. Debt, (and your dad's point about
MISMANAGEMENT OF DEBT being the main concern is well taken), is something
that is universally accepted by most U.S. citizens. These people do not
have the background and understanding that the district president of a
bank has. That's why you have to ask questions.
(You grew up in the home of a man with extensive knowledge and experience
in the field, but what were you taught then about debt and mortgages?
The quality of your life indicates that you were instructed on many
things. Your dad is a great man and a wonderful father and father-in-law
and friend. However, you are asking questions because (a) he did not
teach you that information or (b) he taught you and you ignored him!)
You are asking questions now and your loving dad is teaching you what he
knows now! And that is good. You realize his abilities and he realizes
your desire to make educated, informed decisions.
The Bible clearly says that the borrower is slave to the lender and that
is something that every believer must deal with when/if he enters into a
debt. Regardless of what decision you make regarding a mortgage, it is
clear that you are going to be an informed, confident consumer and that
you will be able to count the entire cost, both spiritually and
financially.
Honestly, I have been thinking about this topic for over a year. I have
heard equally convincing arguments from both sides--the financial advice
being "enter into mortgage, it's smart," to the biblical advice being
"debt in all forms is wrong."
Though having a home with a mortgage seems to be preferable to some of
our disciples, many desire MORE to be in the center of the will of God
and are willing to await the conclusive results of the study before
entering into a mortgage. There are others who did not enter into a
mortgage because Craig "said" mortgages were wrong. They feel they
cannot wait any longer, and they must buy now. Freedom of will is not
the issue; that's a given. The best choice is the issue for me. I want
to know what the Word says.
I am thankful Rev. Rivenbark has assigned this project to biblically and
financially knowledgeable men and women to examine and settle so that we
can make the best decisions possible. I am thankful for those who
patiently work the information on their own and anticipate the decision
from Headquarters.
Isn't it great to have the best in both "worlds"? Your dad's insight and
your Father's! Love, Bob
quote:
(You grew up in the home of a man with extensive knowledge and experience
in the field, but what were you taught then about debt and mortgages?
The quality of your life indicates that you were instructed on many
things. Your dad is a great man and a wonderful father and father-in-law
and friend. However, you are asking questions because (a) he did not
teach you that information or (b) he taught you and you ignored him!)
Actually, Bob, I was asking questions because everything coming out of the mouth of TWIts contradicted what my Daddy taught me. :)--> (insert an imitation of one of your sarcastic smirks here) I also, did NOT ignore my Daddy and he’ll tell you so. That’s the reason I didn’t have money problems before getting involved with your little cult. I had financed a car and WISH I had financed a house prior to becoming involved. My Daddy taught that those are considered good management of my money providing I can easily make my payments each month and I am not living beyond my means. TWI doesn’t teach that, they keep people in bondage, but you do a very good job of using the tactics mentioned in the “Manipulative People†thread.
They are thrilled that they fought to buy a home they could "afford" with cash.
Now they are in a position of strength and they, of course, don't understand why anyone would pay the "going cost" for a home over a 30-year period (the pretty standard length of current mortgages).
Bob's letter of incredible wisdom (cough, cough)....
Gee Bob.....did it ever enter you pea-brain thinking that some have REFINANCED after a couple of years at a better rate AND knocked a mortgage down to 15 years.....add in a few extra payments and one's mortgage will be paid in 8-10 years!!!!
Didn't think of those little nifty ideas....did ya bob? Of course not.....twi pays you to OBEY, not think !!
Just reading Bob's "advice" gives me the willies........eeewwwoooooowww!
Thanks for posting that Belle. There's really quite a bit of information in your two emails and a lot to chew on for Wayfers and ex-Wayfers still working through this topic.
I will say this - Bob is being civil in his responses and perfectly illustrates Way leadership mentality - if they think you're "with them" and following and contributing they communicate one way - if they become even a li-itle bit suspicious over anything, even the most inocuous or ill informed impression, they tend to turn on you with extreme prejudice.
But this caught my eye right off:
quote:
We want to firmly establish a
biblical foundation for our position that mortgages are debt, or we want
to be able to definitively say, as your dad can from an economic theory,
that a mortgage is not debt.
He's saying of course that they've taken a position before really having a solid biblical foundation for it.
And the stuff about 2 years of business when he was what - a teenager? and the switch to math - I'm alarmed that Bob would have to go that far back to pull out some credible background on his credentials.
But what's he saying - that math is more godly than business? That Bob doesn't like to deal with things that can't be controlled like numbers? I dunno, he sounds mixed up to bring those things in to the discussion he was having.
sooooooo....When did the Way, a biblical REASEARCH and TEACHING ministry start taking positions on matters like this, of extreme personal impact on their congregants - without really knowing what they're talking about? It's nice - seemingly - that Bobaroo recognizes your DAD's authority but he dismisses the fact that his authority is unstable.
Weird.
Almost as weird as why the Way would be getting so involved in it's member's personal affairs anyway that it would make hard fast recommendations about something like personal home ownership.
They act like it's their right to do so. It's not.
Bobazon doesn't have to worry about all these financial matters and everyone knows why. He can "afford" to be free with advise.
I am thankful for your dad's wisdom and insight. What he expresses is what our biblical men are working on.... We want to firmly establish a biblical foundation for our position that mortgages are debt, or we want to be able to definitively say, as your dad can from an economic theory, that a mortgage is not debt.
Back in 1994-1996.....LCM ranted on and on that a mortgage was debt. According to twi's president, the research HAD ALREADY been done.
In Bob's syrupy letter of 2001..... he states that "our biblical men are working on (it)".... is he just stringing Belle along here or is twi RE-considering their position?????
Now, its 2005.......are they STILL "working on it" ????? I wouldn't doubt it.
I remember my BC telling us that the Corps were asked to give their insight on debt and the Word. I knew several people who were very smart in money management and investing who had given a lot of information concerning mortgages.
I as also told later on they were told at a Corps meeting that debt was still debt; they didn't change their policy (or is it not a policy???) on it; no discussions; case closed. I knew people who went back to discuss the work they submitted on the subject and were basically kicked to the curb. They were now dropped from the Corps because of it. They are out now with a house they bought. I'm sure they are enjoying life much more NOW!!
Back in 1994-1996.....LCM ranted on and on that a mortgage was debt. According to twi's president, the research HAD ALREADY been done.
quote:
My Daddy also commented that he was surprised that TWI was even trying to tell people what to do with their money.
Belle, your Dad's a smart man. There's one good reason I can think of now, a quote from that great philosopher Dirty Harry Callahan, speaking to his new sidekick in the movie Magnum Force. After being suspended by his boss, for being right, he says:
We are now debt free. No thanks to you and you dumbass advice. Remember when you called us "foolish" because we refused to pay off our very low interest mortgage? Remember when you sent Paul & Phyll to reprimand (threaten) us to get out of debt or else. And we had to state what we were going to do about it. And we we were required to write to you about it.
Our method:
Put a very small down payment on a house and go into good debt to purchase an appreciating asset that we were able to afford, well within our means about 14 years ago. Our mortgage payment was LESS than your rent and LESS than Paul & Phyll Gilxx (our Corps branch leaders)rent which our abundant sharing was paying for.
Your dumbass advice:
If you can not pay off your house then you should sell it to get out of debt. You specifically told us that ALL debt was off God's Word. ALL. That includes a mortgage.
Our method:
Ignore you and LCM, knowing absolutely that YOU were wrong and had no idea what you were talking about. We privately laughed at your stupidity and that of TWI when it came to financial matters. We were astounded that you took math at all in school. The advice was so poor that it is our opinion that TWI was simply trying to raise more cash.
Your method:
Continued badgering of the believers to either get out of debt or get out.
Our method:
Keep our home of course and not sell it to get out of debt. Continue to make extra pricnipal payments as we had been doing long before you tried to interfere with our personal lives. Continue to ignore your lame foot advice. Continue to "pretend" we are doing someting about it to appease you so you would get off our case and not kick us out.
Your method:
"Owe no man anything".... end of story. That's what God almighty says. Take it or leave it. Continue to be narrow minded on reality and the interpretation of the scriptures in context of our culture. Continue to pay rent and give money to increase the wealth of your landlord.
Our results:
Our house is paid for and has doubled in value so far to over $300,000. Our other two homes (rentals) which we had mortgages on (and did not tell you or you would have freaked out) have also doubled in value. Those mortages are also nearly paid off by renters like you who paid for it all those years. Thank you renters! Oh, and we saved many thousands on our taxes due to legal write offs.
Your results:
I see you are still renting and so are the GileXX. I would venture to guess that MOST of the TWI participants do not own real estate. Your landlords are very thankful for all the money you have given them all these years. Many of the believers sold homes they should have kept due to your badgering and that of your leaders. Some regret it to this day. Belivers were not to get mortgages. Therefore believers did not invest in real estate at the very time when they should have. Where was this revelation coming from? Some have never financially recovered from your poor advice.
I am thankful for your dad's wisdom and insight. What he expresses is what our biblical men are working on.... We want to firmly establish a biblical foundation for our position that mortgages are debt, or we want to be able to definitively say, as your dad can from an economic theory, that a mortgage is not debt.
Back in 1994-1996.....LCM ranted on and on that a mortgage was debt. According to twi's president, the research HAD ALREADY been done.
In Bob's syrupy letter of 2001..... he states that "our biblical men are working on (it)".... is he just stringing Belle along here or is twi RE-considering their position?????
Now, its 2005.......are they STILL "working on it" ????? I wouldn't doubt it.
Unbelievable, Bob...........unbelievable !!!! -->
Duh, he was stringing Belle along.
twi tries very hard not to give a straight answer on anything it thinks it
could get in trouble over, rather than just not say anything stupid.
Therefore, they have a policy on debt,
and they never had a policy on debt,
and they've been studying it out for 20 years,
and the research has all been done.
It's like the story of the tall, fat, skinny little man.
By the way, we have knowledge of a couple in AL that has been saving as
much as they possibly can over the last several years with the intent of
buying a house. They have been keeping track of foreclosures and finally
found a home that they like and could afford for CASH! It was a home
worth in the neighborhood of $75-100,000 and they purchased it for
$30,000. They have a minimum of immediate "fix up" to do. They are
thrilled that they fought to buy a home they could "afford" with cash.
Bob......before rambling on about ONE isolated example of narrow-minded obedience, I've got a few questions about this:
1) When buying this house, what was the neighborhood like? the other homes?
2) What school district accompanied this home purchase?
3) Was this area a low-crime area? were real estate values growing?
4) How about an accommodating location? drive time to work? to fellowships?
5) How about privacy? two-car garage? driveway with basketball hoop? nice back yard?
6) How much MORE "fix up" to do besides what you describe as IMMEDIATE???
7) How do you know that this is a "position of strength?"
You see, Bob......buying a house is ALOT more than just coming up with a lump of cash and finding one at low bottom dollar rates. What if the husband is NOT a fixer-upper? And, if its an inner school district..... what about the education of children? Isn't THAT important?.... or are you suggesting we move again in a few years? or just believe God?
Home ownership is HIGHLY personal, Bob.......and it seems that your input is not only NOT HELPING, its detrimental and devious. Just as Belle noted, you are manipulating her thinking.
Then, Bob....you follow up with additional manipulation. This one really jumps out:
quote:
Though having a home with a mortgage seems to be preferable to some of
our disciples, many desire MORE to be in the center of the will of God
and are willing to await the conclusive results of the study before
entering into a mortgage.
:D--> :D--> :D--> ........... it's 2005 and are twi disciples STILL WAITING on "research" to be in the center of the will of God????????????????
This nonsense reminds me of what's going on in the PFAL thread.. all the claims- all the promises.
People HAVE asked. How do we do it? What a friggin lame answer- "well, somebody in Timbuctu managed to pay cash for a house a couple years ago.." No results- then or now.
Maybe they just have to increase the proportion- give say, THIRTY percent-
"The Bible clearly says that the borrower is slave to the lender and that is something that every believer must deal with when/if he enters into a debt."
"Does anyone know where it "clearly says" this?"
Prov 22:
v6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
v7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
v8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
True, true- but why don't they read the first half of that verse?
"The rich ruleth over the poor". Every bit as valid as the second half.
My current financial condition would almost fit the right criteria for vey "membership"- but I'm friggin POOR. Could not afford cost of rent for a whole house- and pay for school, transportation to work and school, etc. Could not afford even a reasonable payment to the bank. A year or so, and things will be different.
I am in servitude to a friggin landlord. Thankfully, he's a nice guy. Cheap place. Can't do what I want though- no pets, no this, no that. Can't have my own furniture, no more holes in the wall..
I'm not complaining about it- but why can't they see it?
The landlord "rules" over me. There is nothing I really have to say about it.
The verse itself does not condemn debt- "The borrower is servant to the lender, and this is an unruly evil". Nope.. just a statement of PRINCIPLE. Don't have a boatload of money? You just may have to follow somebody elses rules. Either way you go- poor, or in debt.
It just makes me wonder who these supposed "experts" that ole Rosie and gang unleashed upon the scriptures. No names- wonder why. No accountability, I guess. "We have our people working on, even as we speak"- ha.
Maybe some nineteen year old corpse "grad" that just can't figure out what a concordance is- that by some freak of nature, he does not have any recognizable "debt".
More likely to be a big rubber stamp with some guys face painted on it.
No Wordwolf, I see that too. It's stupid because as igotout suggests to Bobanon, "do the math". :D-->
Bobbed really does need to study the bible and learn what it says with all this research (or as he says let someone else do it and tell him so he can then decide based on their teaching - typical Way thinking) because he makes this completely uninformed assertion-
Our ministry acknowledges that borrowing takes place and it is talked
about in the old testament. We further acknowledge that the commerce practices and trade practices of antiquity up until today are time-tested and universally accepted.
Bob should read Deut. 15 then and decide if it's universally accepted. Every 7th year Israel was instructed to forgive outstanding debt to one another, amounting to:
-cancellation of debts between Israelites every seventh year
-looking after the poor in the community and lending freely to them
God in Deuteronomy makes the recognition that there will always be "poor" or needy people in the nation and that it's the responsibility of the "rich" or those who have the ability, to help them.
To say that these O.T. instructions are universally accepted is nuts. They're not. God also gives his attitude about "usury", heavy interest rates over and above the value of that which is loaned. That instruction isn't universally accepted, at all, anywhere.
There is both instruction and RESPONSIBILITY involved, something the Way doesn't like to have or take. They're happy to play bible research, for years and in the mean time shoot from the hip with so-called policies and suggestions without any solid instruction they're willing to publish or commit to but they won't themselves put together a comprehensive approach to their so-called "prevailing word" society of Way believers. They pick and choose, react, respond, defend, from a position of weakness because they don't
know
what
they're
talking
about.
It's absolutely unbeeeee leavable to me that someone who's been hanging around the Way as long as Bob has, in his positions over the years, can't speak with some clear knowledge without hedging his statements. When's he going to get serious?
There were other concepts in the OT culture as well.
Outstanding debts were forgiven among the brethren every 7 years. I seem to recall that some things only got forgiven every 25 years [the 25th year celebration had a name, though I don’t recall it].
Also many get 'confused' on the topic of Usury. It was okay to charge interest on loans to un-believers. Israel had to be nice and hospitable to gentiles living among them [realizing that they were not subject to OT law but were drawn to G-d's people]. However distinctions were made, you could not charge 'high' rates of interest to believers, and you could not live off of the interest. Loaning money could be done and interest could be charged [low rates to believers, higher rates to gentiles], but you could not do it as you primary source of income.
Within all of this keep in mind that they also had cities of sanctuary [was there like 7 of them?]. Any crime you committed, if you could run fast enough, you could run to one of those cities and live there. Commit the crime again in that city, and your done. Even though we commonly look at the OT laws as being terribly harsh, there was within the system ‘loopholes’.
During my career, I did counsel many on their finances, as one of the hats that I wore. Increasing debt is common in our culture, businesses do live-off that interest and those businesses do prosper. It does suck the ‘life’ out of those who are so enslaved. Some can afford to declare bankruptcy, others like anyone with a security clearance can not, else they may lose their career.
I do believe that debt can enslave.
We were among the few who did buy homes during our time in ‘The Way International’, we purchased them with mortgages, and we have never made any form of down-payment on any house that we have owned. We were never confronted for doing this, though leadership did know what we were doing. The difference [as I see it] was that Bonnie and I had found ‘loopholes’ in The Way International’s doctrine which allowed for this kind of debt. What was this ‘loop-hole’? Well our purchases were business deals. The ‘homes’ were Multi-Family-Residences they each bring in a monthly profit, and we routinely housed believers [providing homes for those in the Twig]. We had boarders living with us [in our apartment] in each home right up until we left The Way International the last time, and we usually had believers renting apartments from us.
Underyling to the topic of debt is need, what a person needs that they have to borrow for.
Is it a sin to be needy? To have a need, something that hasn't been "met". Is that a sin?
The Way teaches that yes, in essence, it is. Due to lack of or wrong believing a person not having the "abundant life" in any category isn't "walking" in the knowledge and power they should be. They're "broken fellowship" in that area causes need, when and where that person denies or doesn't know God's will and doesn't act on it with "believing action".
If you're not taking positive believing action, what's left? NEGative believing action. Bingo. You're about as close to "sin" as the Way can get. Or so they teach if you actually think about it.
But the question to the bible would still be, is it a sin to have a need? Is it a sin to be "poor"?
The answer is clearly no, with a caveat that obviously certain kinds of behavior could lead to poverty and that behavior could be wrong.
But God allows for the fact that there will always be poor amongst the nation of Israel, people at times who have "need".
The response isn't a flat swooping cut of the knife of reproof - "They're not believing! I won't spit in their direction let alone provide for them!"
That would only produce a cycle of failure. Which is exactly what the Way's hard hearted attitudes produce over the long haul, over the years.
Rather the O.T. instructions allow for GIVING, the flip side of debt. If, in a society of God's people, GIVING was done correctly, debt would be less of an issue.
To focus on "debt" in the bible without looking at "giving" is going to be incomplete.
This is what bugs me about the Way Nash's policies and has for many years. They're wrong in how they conduct their ministry business in that they take IN finances and BUILD with those finances, but they don't GIVE out as an organization. The basic classes - PFAL, WAP, SQWAP, or whatever else they have now, all cost money. You have to pay to learn that which is supposedly absolutely essential for you to have a successful "Christian" life.
"I have a jack, but I'm not going to help you!"
"Unless you pay me for it".
That's the Way's policy, plain and simple. Money sucking tics, for want of a better description.
Galen - you sinner... "owe no man anything", the math genius would have said to you if you had lived around here.
Due to their many years in the stale cocoon they called the household, they had no clue as to what was right and wrong when it came to finances. Bob and Paul and other leaders disliked me because I knew far more than they did about these matters. They didn't like it one bit. Screw them...they were plain wrong and they knew I knew it. In my opinion THEY needed financial counseling to help them overcome THEIR fears of being man enough to step forward financially.
No question, some debt is bad such as credit card debt..... some debt is good such as a low interest rate mortgage and the American dream of home ownership at an affordable level in your timetable.
This is not rocket science or complicated math. It takes cult mentality or fear.... (or greed in wanting more ABS) to suggest otherwise.
BTW there is nothing wrong with renting. In some situations I think it is better than owning a home.
But in the long run ...it doesn't take higher math to figure out what common sense tells us all.
Oh, and from what I hear, Moneyhands dislikes Greasespoters. I'll bet he reads, however, as do others still in.
This is what bugs me about the Way Nash's policies and has for many years. They're wrong in how they conduct their ministry business in that they take IN finances and BUILD with those finances, but they don't GIVE out as an organization. The basic classes - PFAL, WAP, SQWAP, or whatever else they have now, all cost money. You have to pay to learn that which is supposedly absolutely essential for you to have a successful "Christian" life.
socks.....yeah, a "spiritual extortion" of sorts, by a self-proclaimed authority.
And, the field corps are EXPLOITED year after year. Twi headquarters is the beneficiary of this free labor and monies sent in under the guise of abundant sharing. All the while, this mortgage=debt policy shackles corps and others from ADVANCING FORWARD IN LIFE..... a ball and chain, for sure.
And, in honor of this thread.......we don't call him "Moneyhands" for nothing.
Sky - it is extortion. It takes the parable of the Good Samaritan and rewrites it to include a class registration and advance payment. :D-->
To the thread, Consuelo!
quote:
To answer your dad's question, The Way DID mortgage its Headquarters in
1974/5 for about 18 months in order to purchase The Way College of
Emporia. It was most distasteful to Dr. Wierwille and the original
Trustees, but they felt they needed the additional campus, saw that they
would be able to pay off debt for the campus within a limited number of
months, and then they aggressively worked to eliminate that debt. When
the debt was paid off, Dr. Wierwille announced it to those of us on Staff
at the time. Then he cut up the mortgage paper into small pieces and
distributed one piece to each in-residence Way Corps person. He said
that he wanted that to remind them to never mortgage our Headquarters
again.
I was there when he did that. Now years later, a question:
How does a non-profit organization "aggressively work" to eliminate a debt? Exactly how does that work out, on paper? New money, old money? Who's money are we talking about here?
Who worked so hard to get it paid off? What was the aggressive work exactly?
Who worked so hard to get it paid off? What was the aggressive work exactly?
I know a 6th corps girl, injured her foot/leg in a car accident, and received a court settlement of $100,000..... as Dr. Wierwille was "aggressively working to eliminate that debt." She had it to give and signed it over to twi. She's no longer corps, but still involved.
From what she told me, vp cried as he accepted this huge "donation" in twi coffers. And, for years she and her husband stayed on staff payroll.
Today, she still has a piece of that mortgage taped inside the front cover of her bible.
As a mere humble peon, little-Miss-Nobody-Nothing-from-Nowhere, non-WC person, I cried when His Majesty pronounced that Mortgage Loan is debt and thou shalt not own a house! Then I got mad. Whose business is it, anyway?
I saw one lovely couple kicked out of the WC because they didn't close on the contract on their very lovely home by the deadline, which I think was corp week 1995. They had a beautiful custom built home overlooking Lake Stevens, WA. People were reeling, panicking, terrified their homes wouldn't sell and they would be cast out. And of course then it trickled down to everyone without exception. It was horrible hurtful, mean and unecessary. I remember clearly LCM stating on a SNS tape, "I've never owned a house, and it hasn't hurt me one bit!" You never had to you son of a Bytch! Someone always was there to provide your housing free of charge after you went in the WC!
When We left TWI and came back "home", I wondered if we would ever again own a home. Well, we owned two, one to live in and one to rent! And we sold those and we built our own custom home that is just a dream come true! And we have a mortgage. And savings accounts, too! And mutual funds and money market things and all that! And none of those nasty little TWIers are getting one red cent of it!!!
And if any church group or anyone else ever asks me again about my finances (except my broker ;)--> the answer is "none of your **!$@ business!
Take that, you moneygrubbers! Woe to you for leading innocent people astray with your subtlety and lies for filthy lucres' sake!
If someone didn't learn anymore about math than he knows about God's love and what Jesus Christ was all about, I'm surprised he can add 2+2 without help.
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Belle
and additional information:
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:53 AM
To: Belle
Subject: Re: Home Stuff - too
To answer your dad's question, The Way DID mortgage its Headquarters in
1974/5 for about 18 months in order to purchase The Way College of
Emporia. It was most distasteful to Dr. Wierwille and the original
Trustees, but they felt they needed the additional campus, saw that they
would be able to pay off debt for the campus within a limited number of
months, and then they aggressively worked to eliminate that debt. When
the debt was paid off, Dr. Wierwille announced it to those of us on Staff
at the time. Then he cut up the mortgage paper into small pieces and
distributed one piece to each in-residence Way Corps person. He said
that he wanted that to remind them to never mortgage our Headquarters
again.
Our ministry acknowledges that borrowing takes place and it is talked
about in the old testament. We further acknowledge that the commerce
practices and trade practices of antiquity up until today are time-tested
and universally accepted.
What we have taught is that the follower of the Lord Jesus Christ needs
to be in a position of strength. Debt, (and your dad's point about
MISMANAGEMENT OF DEBT being the main concern is well taken), is something
that is universally accepted by most U.S. citizens. These people do not
have the background and understanding that the district president of a
bank has. That's why you have to ask questions.
(You grew up in the home of a man with extensive knowledge and experience
in the field, but what were you taught then about debt and mortgages?
The quality of your life indicates that you were instructed on many
things. Your dad is a great man and a wonderful father and father-in-law
and friend. However, you are asking questions because (a) he did not
teach you that information or (b) he taught you and you ignored him!)
You are asking questions now and your loving dad is teaching you what he
knows now! And that is good. You realize his abilities and he realizes
your desire to make educated, informed decisions.
The Bible clearly says that the borrower is slave to the lender and that
is something that every believer must deal with when/if he enters into a
debt. Regardless of what decision you make regarding a mortgage, it is
clear that you are going to be an informed, confident consumer and that
you will be able to count the entire cost, both spiritually and
financially.
Honestly, I have been thinking about this topic for over a year. I have
heard equally convincing arguments from both sides--the financial advice
being "enter into mortgage, it's smart," to the biblical advice being
"debt in all forms is wrong."
Though having a home with a mortgage seems to be preferable to some of
our disciples, many desire MORE to be in the center of the will of God
and are willing to await the conclusive results of the study before
entering into a mortgage. There are others who did not enter into a
mortgage because Craig "said" mortgages were wrong. They feel they
cannot wait any longer, and they must buy now. Freedom of will is not
the issue; that's a given. The best choice is the issue for me. I want
to know what the Word says.
I am thankful Rev. Rivenbark has assigned this project to biblically and
financially knowledgeable men and women to examine and settle so that we
can make the best decisions possible. I am thankful for those who
patiently work the information on their own and anticipate the decision
from Headquarters.
Isn't it great to have the best in both "worlds"? Your dad's insight and
your Father's! Love, Bob
Actually, Bob, I was asking questions because everything coming out of the mouth of TWIts contradicted what my Daddy taught me.
:)--> (insert an imitation of one of your sarcastic smirks here) I also, did NOT ignore my Daddy and he’ll tell you so. That’s the reason I didn’t have money problems before getting involved with your little cult. I had financed a car and WISH I had financed a house prior to becoming involved. My Daddy taught that those are considered good management of my money providing I can easily make my payments each month and I am not living beyond my means. TWI doesn’t teach that, they keep people in bondage, but you do a very good job of using the tactics mentioned in the “Manipulative People†thread.
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Ham
Funny, he does not name them. Who are they? My guess, probably not worth naming- stinkers a quarter the age of ole Bobbers himself.
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skyrider
Bob's letter of incredible wisdom (cough, cough)....
Gee Bob.....did it ever enter you pea-brain thinking that some have REFINANCED after a couple of years at a better rate AND knocked a mortgage down to 15 years.....add in a few extra payments and one's mortgage will be paid in 8-10 years!!!!
Didn't think of those little nifty ideas....did ya bob? Of course not.....twi pays you to OBEY, not think !!
Just reading Bob's "advice" gives me the willies........eeewwwoooooowww!
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socks
Thanks for posting that Belle. There's really quite a bit of information in your two emails and a lot to chew on for Wayfers and ex-Wayfers still working through this topic.
I will say this - Bob is being civil in his responses and perfectly illustrates Way leadership mentality - if they think you're "with them" and following and contributing they communicate one way - if they become even a li-itle bit suspicious over anything, even the most inocuous or ill informed impression, they tend to turn on you with extreme prejudice.
But this caught my eye right off:
He's saying of course that they've taken a position before really having a solid biblical foundation for it.
And the stuff about 2 years of business when he was what - a teenager? and the switch to math - I'm alarmed that Bob would have to go that far back to pull out some credible background on his credentials.
But what's he saying - that math is more godly than business? That Bob doesn't like to deal with things that can't be controlled like numbers? I dunno, he sounds mixed up to bring those things in to the discussion he was having.
sooooooo....When did the Way, a biblical REASEARCH and TEACHING ministry start taking positions on matters like this, of extreme personal impact on their congregants - without really knowing what they're talking about? It's nice - seemingly - that Bobaroo recognizes your DAD's authority but he dismisses the fact that his authority is unstable.
Weird.
Almost as weird as why the Way would be getting so involved in it's member's personal affairs anyway that it would make hard fast recommendations about something like personal home ownership.
They act like it's their right to do so. It's not.
Bobazon doesn't have to worry about all these financial matters and everyone knows why. He can "afford" to be free with advise.
Lots to think about there. Thanks!
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skyrider
And another thing.....
Back in 1994-1996.....LCM ranted on and on that a mortgage was debt. According to twi's president, the research HAD ALREADY been done.
In Bob's syrupy letter of 2001..... he states that "our biblical men are working on (it)".... is he just stringing Belle along here or is twi RE-considering their position?????
Now, its 2005.......are they STILL "working on it" ????? I wouldn't doubt it.
Unbelievable, Bob...........unbelievable !!!!
-->
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Nottawayfer
I remember my BC telling us that the Corps were asked to give their insight on debt and the Word. I knew several people who were very smart in money management and investing who had given a lot of information concerning mortgages.
I as also told later on they were told at a Corps meeting that debt was still debt; they didn't change their policy (or is it not a policy???) on it; no discussions; case closed. I knew people who went back to discuss the work they submitted on the subject and were basically kicked to the curb. They were now dropped from the Corps because of it. They are out now with a house they bought. I'm sure they are enjoying life much more NOW!!
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socks
Belle, your Dad's a smart man. There's one good reason I can think of now, a quote from that great philosopher Dirty Harry Callahan, speaking to his new sidekick in the movie Magnum Force. After being suspended by his boss, for being right, he says:
"Besides being stupid, they're just plain wrong".
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igotout
Dear Bob
We are now debt free. No thanks to you and you dumbass advice. Remember when you called us "foolish" because we refused to pay off our very low interest mortgage? Remember when you sent Paul & Phyll to reprimand (threaten) us to get out of debt or else. And we had to state what we were going to do about it. And we we were required to write to you about it.
Our method:
Put a very small down payment on a house and go into good debt to purchase an appreciating asset that we were able to afford, well within our means about 14 years ago. Our mortgage payment was LESS than your rent and LESS than Paul & Phyll Gilxx (our Corps branch leaders)rent which our abundant sharing was paying for.
Your dumbass advice:
If you can not pay off your house then you should sell it to get out of debt. You specifically told us that ALL debt was off God's Word. ALL. That includes a mortgage.
Our method:
Ignore you and LCM, knowing absolutely that YOU were wrong and had no idea what you were talking about. We privately laughed at your stupidity and that of TWI when it came to financial matters. We were astounded that you took math at all in school. The advice was so poor that it is our opinion that TWI was simply trying to raise more cash.
Your method:
Continued badgering of the believers to either get out of debt or get out.
Our method:
Keep our home of course and not sell it to get out of debt. Continue to make extra pricnipal payments as we had been doing long before you tried to interfere with our personal lives. Continue to ignore your lame foot advice. Continue to "pretend" we are doing someting about it to appease you so you would get off our case and not kick us out.
Your method:
"Owe no man anything".... end of story. That's what God almighty says. Take it or leave it. Continue to be narrow minded on reality and the interpretation of the scriptures in context of our culture. Continue to pay rent and give money to increase the wealth of your landlord.
Our results:
Our house is paid for and has doubled in value so far to over $300,000. Our other two homes (rentals) which we had mortgages on (and did not tell you or you would have freaked out) have also doubled in value. Those mortages are also nearly paid off by renters like you who paid for it all those years. Thank you renters! Oh, and we saved many thousands on our taxes due to legal write offs.
Your results:
I see you are still renting and so are the GileXX. I would venture to guess that MOST of the TWI participants do not own real estate. Your landlords are very thankful for all the money you have given them all these years. Many of the believers sold homes they should have kept due to your badgering and that of your leaders. Some regret it to this day. Belivers were not to get mortgages. Therefore believers did not invest in real estate at the very time when they should have. Where was this revelation coming from? Some have never financially recovered from your poor advice.
Who's foolish now? DO THE MATH!
:D-->
John Richeson
Tampa,FL
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WordWolf
Duh, he was stringing Belle along.
twi tries very hard not to give a straight answer on anything it thinks it
could get in trouble over, rather than just not say anything stupid.
Therefore, they have a policy on debt,
and they never had a policy on debt,
and they've been studying it out for 20 years,
and the research has all been done.
It's like the story of the tall, fat, skinny little man.
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WordWolf
Does anyone know where it
"clearly says"
this?
And, if this is so "clear", why was in-depth research needed?
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WordWolf
I'm skipping over the old saw of twi that everything they have is "the best",
like your Dad's letter, which was also "the best" because I wanted to note
this little gem.
I think this exposes a fatal personality flaw, the quote I pulled up.
Read it again.
Bob finds it distasteful to deal with things that don't conform to cold,
rational numbers. Economics is dynamic and fluid, like dealing with PEOPLE.
Mathematics is cold, like the bottom line.
People don't add up, but numbers do.
Worse,
look closely,
and review the connection between "unchanging" like mathematics, and "God's Word."
What's this contrasted with?
Fluidity and economics.
Anyone else see the "economics vs God's Word" contrast, or am I the only one?
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skyrider
Bob......before rambling on about ONE isolated example of narrow-minded obedience, I've got a few questions about this:
1) When buying this house, what was the neighborhood like? the other homes?
2) What school district accompanied this home purchase?
3) Was this area a low-crime area? were real estate values growing?
4) How about an accommodating location? drive time to work? to fellowships?
5) How about privacy? two-car garage? driveway with basketball hoop? nice back yard?
6) How much MORE "fix up" to do besides what you describe as IMMEDIATE???
7) How do you know that this is a "position of strength?"
You see, Bob......buying a house is ALOT more than just coming up with a lump of cash and finding one at low bottom dollar rates. What if the husband is NOT a fixer-upper? And, if its an inner school district..... what about the education of children? Isn't THAT important?.... or are you suggesting we move again in a few years? or just believe God?
Home ownership is HIGHLY personal, Bob.......and it seems that your input is not only NOT HELPING, its detrimental and devious. Just as Belle noted, you are manipulating her thinking.
Then, Bob....you follow up with additional manipulation. This one really jumps out:
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Ham
This nonsense reminds me of what's going on in the PFAL thread.. all the claims- all the promises.
People HAVE asked. How do we do it? What a friggin lame answer- "well, somebody in Timbuctu managed to pay cash for a house a couple years ago.." No results- then or now.
Maybe they just have to increase the proportion- give say, THIRTY percent-
Yep. That oughta do it.
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Galen
WordWolf:
"The Bible clearly says that the borrower is slave to the lender and that is something that every believer must deal with when/if he enters into a debt."
"Does anyone know where it "clearly says" this?"
Prov 22:
v6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
v7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
v8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
:-)
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Ham
True, true- but why don't they read the first half of that verse?
"The rich ruleth over the poor". Every bit as valid as the second half.
My current financial condition would almost fit the right criteria for vey "membership"- but I'm friggin POOR. Could not afford cost of rent for a whole house- and pay for school, transportation to work and school, etc. Could not afford even a reasonable payment to the bank. A year or so, and things will be different.
I am in servitude to a friggin landlord. Thankfully, he's a nice guy. Cheap place. Can't do what I want though- no pets, no this, no that. Can't have my own furniture, no more holes in the wall..
I'm not complaining about it- but why can't they see it?
The landlord "rules" over me. There is nothing I really have to say about it.
The verse itself does not condemn debt- "The borrower is servant to the lender, and this is an unruly evil". Nope.. just a statement of PRINCIPLE. Don't have a boatload of money? You just may have to follow somebody elses rules. Either way you go- poor, or in debt.
It just makes me wonder who these supposed "experts" that ole Rosie and gang unleashed upon the scriptures. No names- wonder why. No accountability, I guess. "We have our people working on, even as we speak"- ha.
Maybe some nineteen year old corpse "grad" that just can't figure out what a concordance is- that by some freak of nature, he does not have any recognizable "debt".
More likely to be a big rubber stamp with some guys face painted on it.
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socks
No Wordwolf, I see that too. It's stupid because as igotout suggests to Bobanon, "do the math".
:D-->
Bobbed really does need to study the bible and learn what it says with all this research (or as he says let someone else do it and tell him so he can then decide based on their teaching - typical Way thinking) because he makes this completely uninformed assertion-
Our ministry acknowledges that borrowing takes place and it is talked
about in the old testament. We further acknowledge that the commerce practices and trade practices of antiquity up until today are time-tested and universally accepted.
Bob should read Deut. 15 then and decide if it's universally accepted. Every 7th year Israel was instructed to forgive outstanding debt to one another, amounting to:
-cancellation of debts between Israelites every seventh year
-looking after the poor in the community and lending freely to them
God in Deuteronomy makes the recognition that there will always be "poor" or needy people in the nation and that it's the responsibility of the "rich" or those who have the ability, to help them.
To say that these O.T. instructions are universally accepted is nuts. They're not. God also gives his attitude about "usury", heavy interest rates over and above the value of that which is loaned. That instruction isn't universally accepted, at all, anywhere.
There is both instruction and RESPONSIBILITY involved, something the Way doesn't like to have or take. They're happy to play bible research, for years and in the mean time shoot from the hip with so-called policies and suggestions without any solid instruction they're willing to publish or commit to but they won't themselves put together a comprehensive approach to their so-called "prevailing word" society of Way believers. They pick and choose, react, respond, defend, from a position of weakness because they don't
know
what
they're
talking
about.
It's absolutely unbeeeee leavable to me that someone who's been hanging around the Way as long as Bob has, in his positions over the years, can't speak with some clear knowledge without hedging his statements. When's he going to get serious?
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Galen
There were other concepts in the OT culture as well.
Outstanding debts were forgiven among the brethren every 7 years. I seem to recall that some things only got forgiven every 25 years [the 25th year celebration had a name, though I don’t recall it].
Also many get 'confused' on the topic of Usury. It was okay to charge interest on loans to un-believers. Israel had to be nice and hospitable to gentiles living among them [realizing that they were not subject to OT law but were drawn to G-d's people]. However distinctions were made, you could not charge 'high' rates of interest to believers, and you could not live off of the interest. Loaning money could be done and interest could be charged [low rates to believers, higher rates to gentiles], but you could not do it as you primary source of income.
Within all of this keep in mind that they also had cities of sanctuary [was there like 7 of them?]. Any crime you committed, if you could run fast enough, you could run to one of those cities and live there. Commit the crime again in that city, and your done. Even though we commonly look at the OT laws as being terribly harsh, there was within the system ‘loopholes’.
During my career, I did counsel many on their finances, as one of the hats that I wore. Increasing debt is common in our culture, businesses do live-off that interest and those businesses do prosper. It does suck the ‘life’ out of those who are so enslaved. Some can afford to declare bankruptcy, others like anyone with a security clearance can not, else they may lose their career.
I do believe that debt can enslave.
We were among the few who did buy homes during our time in ‘The Way International’, we purchased them with mortgages, and we have never made any form of down-payment on any house that we have owned. We were never confronted for doing this, though leadership did know what we were doing. The difference [as I see it] was that Bonnie and I had found ‘loopholes’ in The Way International’s doctrine which allowed for this kind of debt. What was this ‘loop-hole’? Well our purchases were business deals. The ‘homes’ were Multi-Family-Residences they each bring in a monthly profit, and we routinely housed believers [providing homes for those in the Twig]. We had boarders living with us [in our apartment] in each home right up until we left The Way International the last time, and we usually had believers renting apartments from us.
:-)
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socks
Underyling to the topic of debt is need, what a person needs that they have to borrow for.
Is it a sin to be needy? To have a need, something that hasn't been "met". Is that a sin?
The Way teaches that yes, in essence, it is. Due to lack of or wrong believing a person not having the "abundant life" in any category isn't "walking" in the knowledge and power they should be. They're "broken fellowship" in that area causes need, when and where that person denies or doesn't know God's will and doesn't act on it with "believing action".
If you're not taking positive believing action, what's left? NEGative believing action. Bingo. You're about as close to "sin" as the Way can get. Or so they teach if you actually think about it.
But the question to the bible would still be, is it a sin to have a need? Is it a sin to be "poor"?
The answer is clearly no, with a caveat that obviously certain kinds of behavior could lead to poverty and that behavior could be wrong.
But God allows for the fact that there will always be poor amongst the nation of Israel, people at times who have "need".
The response isn't a flat swooping cut of the knife of reproof - "They're not believing! I won't spit in their direction let alone provide for them!"
That would only produce a cycle of failure. Which is exactly what the Way's hard hearted attitudes produce over the long haul, over the years.
Rather the O.T. instructions allow for GIVING, the flip side of debt. If, in a society of God's people, GIVING was done correctly, debt would be less of an issue.
To focus on "debt" in the bible without looking at "giving" is going to be incomplete.
This is what bugs me about the Way Nash's policies and has for many years. They're wrong in how they conduct their ministry business in that they take IN finances and BUILD with those finances, but they don't GIVE out as an organization. The basic classes - PFAL, WAP, SQWAP, or whatever else they have now, all cost money. You have to pay to learn that which is supposedly absolutely essential for you to have a successful "Christian" life.
"I have a jack, but I'm not going to help you!"
"Unless you pay me for it".
That's the Way's policy, plain and simple. Money sucking tics, for want of a better description.
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igotout
Galen - you sinner... "owe no man anything", the math genius would have said to you if you had lived around here.
Due to their many years in the stale cocoon they called the household, they had no clue as to what was right and wrong when it came to finances. Bob and Paul and other leaders disliked me because I knew far more than they did about these matters. They didn't like it one bit. Screw them...they were plain wrong and they knew I knew it. In my opinion THEY needed financial counseling to help them overcome THEIR fears of being man enough to step forward financially.
No question, some debt is bad such as credit card debt..... some debt is good such as a low interest rate mortgage and the American dream of home ownership at an affordable level in your timetable.
This is not rocket science or complicated math. It takes cult mentality or fear.... (or greed in wanting more ABS) to suggest otherwise.
BTW there is nothing wrong with renting. In some situations I think it is better than owning a home.
But in the long run ...it doesn't take higher math to figure out what common sense tells us all.
Oh, and from what I hear, Moneyhands dislikes Greasespoters. I'll bet he reads, however, as do others still in.
John R.
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A la prochaine
Sir Socks,
I have absolutely nothing to add to that post. I'm speechless.
You pretty much summed it ALL up!
Thanks.
:)-->
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skyrider
socks.....yeah, a "spiritual extortion" of sorts, by a self-proclaimed authority.
And, the field corps are EXPLOITED year after year. Twi headquarters is the beneficiary of this free labor and monies sent in under the guise of abundant sharing. All the while, this mortgage=debt policy shackles corps and others from ADVANCING FORWARD IN LIFE..... a ball and chain, for sure.
And, in honor of this thread.......we don't call him "Moneyhands" for nothing.
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socks
Thanks Ala.
Sky - it is extortion. It takes the parable of the Good Samaritan and rewrites it to include a class registration and advance payment.
:D-->
To the thread, Consuelo!
I was there when he did that. Now years later, a question:
How does a non-profit organization "aggressively work" to eliminate a debt? Exactly how does that work out, on paper? New money, old money? Who's money are we talking about here?
Who worked so hard to get it paid off? What was the aggressive work exactly?
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skyrider
I know a 6th corps girl, injured her foot/leg in a car accident, and received a court settlement of $100,000..... as Dr. Wierwille was "aggressively working to eliminate that debt." She had it to give and signed it over to twi. She's no longer corps, but still involved.
From what she told me, vp cried as he accepted this huge "donation" in twi coffers. And, for years she and her husband stayed on staff payroll.
Today, she still has a piece of that mortgage taped inside the front cover of her bible.
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Watered Garden
As a mere humble peon, little-Miss-Nobody-Nothing-from-Nowhere, non-WC person, I cried when His Majesty pronounced that Mortgage Loan is debt and thou shalt not own a house! Then I got mad. Whose business is it, anyway?
I saw one lovely couple kicked out of the WC because they didn't close on the contract on their very lovely home by the deadline, which I think was corp week 1995. They had a beautiful custom built home overlooking Lake Stevens, WA. People were reeling, panicking, terrified their homes wouldn't sell and they would be cast out. And of course then it trickled down to everyone without exception. It was horrible hurtful, mean and unecessary. I remember clearly LCM stating on a SNS tape, "I've never owned a house, and it hasn't hurt me one bit!" You never had to you son of a Bytch! Someone always was there to provide your housing free of charge after you went in the WC!
When We left TWI and came back "home", I wondered if we would ever again own a home. Well, we owned two, one to live in and one to rent! And we sold those and we built our own custom home that is just a dream come true! And we have a mortgage. And savings accounts, too! And mutual funds and money market things and all that! And none of those nasty little TWIers are getting one red cent of it!!!
And if any church group or anyone else ever asks me again about my finances (except my broker
;)--> the answer is "none of your **!$@ business!
Take that, you moneygrubbers! Woe to you for leading innocent people astray with your subtlety and lies for filthy lucres' sake!
If someone didn't learn anymore about math than he knows about God's love and what Jesus Christ was all about, I'm surprised he can add 2+2 without help.
WG
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