"We all need healing in a lot of ways all the time."
Great point Thomas.
This was something that Oral Roberts mentioned over and over again in his great crusades of the 40's, 50's and 60's. This, he said was what kept him in the spirit of expecting miracles everyday, and that God could do anything, nothing was impossible with God, even creating a new heart or new bones was possible.
Oral saw from the Word that the earth was out of balance. the animals and humans were out of balance, since the fall of man. Even the earth, to this day, is groaning. And mankind, even at his best, is alittle out of kilter.
This is also what Jesus saw. This is why 23's of Jesus Christ's time on this earth was spent healing the sick.
Jesus Christs goal was to put things back in it's right order and balance; and let his believers and friends know that they too could, in the future, carry that gift of healing to their generation, until the day when God made everything perfect again.
Well, I am glad you explained it and I do see where you are coming from. And I did hear explainations such as "God made him sick to heal him" from churches. But if God is love I think that behavior is horrific.
It would be like me tripping you, you falling down, then I help you up so you can talk about how great I am. That kind of thinking always bothered me in church and was one of the things I liked about TWI (back in the day when I liked it). They made me see there was a devil and he caused evil. A God of LOVE would not DO those things. I still believe that. I know different churches I have been to still think God allows the evil; to then come save us-- I have a hard time with a God like that.
So, yes, I have a hard time with some of these things. IF I am in need of a miracle - did God put me in that position or did I bring it on myself, or did the evil one come around and try and hurt me?
With my recent health issues, I recall the day I sliced my arm open - thinking, I shouldn't use this tool - for some reason. But I did anyway. So, I feel God tried like heck to prevent me from being in that position of hurting myself and I did not listen.
That lines up more with a loving father than him causing the storm to stop the storm.
I hope I am explaining myself well. You did and I appreciate what you said for I now see what you are saying in depth. And I can tell you, I have had those thoughts ramble in my mind as well.
As far as the faith thing goes, the Way taught us we were to have faith/believing. (I don't have the tine to seperate it all out) But they made us responsible as if our belieivng was the key to God's heart of love.
That fellow from Greece that prayed for me... The first thing he covered was FAITH. He went through this whole thing about God being responsible for our faith. HE GIVES it to us because HE loves us. Anyway, it was a long conversation that incorporated believing and faith. At the end of which I was able to stop condeming myself every time something happened to me. As if I were not believing.
(The opposite is also true as when good things happen, people say "I was beliveing and this happened" as if "I" brought it to pass. That believing doctrine, to the extent TWI taught it, seemed to take God out. If I do not believe bad happens. If I do believe good happens. At least in the Jesus movement we were always praising GOD or Jesus and not ourselves)
I associate that former thinking with pressure "BELIEVE or else...." We no longer have the joy of the Lord in our lives. And the joy of the Lord is our strength.
Joyce Myer went into it the other day. (paraphrased) She said traffic, people at work, screaming kids or spouse is not really what the devil is trying to do. HE is after your joy.
It hit me. All those wrong teachings to condemn us stole our joy. And when we lost joy we were not strong. Without that strength we can be defeated. We looked to OUR powers of believing. We replaced Jesus with Moggies and we condemned ourselves out of joy.
(This is at least how I felt during my experience in TWI - mostly in the corps I felt this.)
Anyway, I appreciate your answer. I hope I am not rambling but these things are roaming around my heart as well.
...still trying to articulate what I have been seeing...
I saw a lot of great God things happen until I went into the corps and got too close to the crap. Then, I spent a lot of time trying to avoid the nasty mean people in the corps.
Dot,I know you're still trying to articulate this in your mind,as I am also(Bullinger),but it sounds like you're blaming yourself for slicing your arm open...Granted,if you were trying to trim your fingernails with a chainsaw we might all agree that if you do something that stupid,God may not be able to protect you...But I never understood the line of teaching that when a believer got hurt they could somehow trace it back to where they didn't listen to God...In fact,it was about my wow year(1974-75)that a way corps guy got killed,a bunch of wows in our town got hurt in a car wreck,...it was like the age of innocence was gone...Then all kinds of teachings started coming out about the devil being after you,and if you don't listen to God,this or this will happen...Not picking on you,just think we beat ourselves up too often for our "unbelief"...
Speaking of unbelief,nice of ex(I love (((((everybody))))) )cathedra to put me in the pile with the faithblasters....Sorry,(((((excie))))),you knows I love you...As much as I enjoy reading testimonies such as Thomas',I find myself being too much like the other Thomas,the doubting one...Maybe I'm looking for more consistency in the category of miracles...I don't think all doubters are as Galen says,half empty type of people...In many ways,the concept of the believer's lifesyle would seemingly render the need for miracles moot....Those that have experienced miracles first-hand seem to have more conviction of their faith than those who have not....
There are times when we could trace back and see where we made an error that caused an injury, etc. But I think that it's ridiculous to think that a cause can always lead back to a mis-step, or unbelief, etc.
I am the Safety Coordinator where I work. Part of my job is to determine whether employee accidents could have been avoided. A large percentage of the time they can. Like the guy who tried to clean the meat off the slicer blade while it was still turning. Ten stitches.
There is some value, IMHO, in trying to determine whether an accident could have been avoided, so that you can prevent it from happening again. TWI erred in including everything from car accidents to the sniffles to heart attacks to some deficit in "believing".
Another thing (while I'm on a roll). I don't think that dwelling on whether or not something was or wasn't a miracle, or whether prayer was or wasn't effective, or anything else is important. Being thankful, or happy, or relieved about the result is important.
Even if one believes in answered prayer, or miracles, or "faith" healing, it should be obvious that not every prayer is answered, not every bad situation is resolved by a miracle, not every sickness or injury is healed; people die.
Be thankful for what you've got.
If you want to give God credit, fine; if you want to say that random chance or preparedness or having a rich daddy got you out of the mess, that's fine too.
Fifteen years ago I prayed for my son who was very sick. The next day he was well. No trace of the illness. I've gotten to the point where I don't give a $h!t how it happened, I'm just happy as h*ll that I have a healthy son. Maybe it was a miracle, maybe it was just his body fighting back, maybe it was that the doctors knew what they were doing.
It doesn't matter to me.
About two months ago I was in a car wreck. I overslept for work and was in a busy intersection an hour later than I should have been. A car drove through a red light and hit me dead on in the driver's side door. I closed my eyes convinced that my last breath was seconds away. I walked away without a scratch, without a bruise, no problems...except the car was totalled.
Lots of analysis possible here: if I hadn't overslept...if...if...if. Did God save me from injury? Did God cause the point of impact to be six inches forward of the place where the crash would have killed me? Why didn't he just avert the crash?
Who cares?
I'm alive.
Was it God? Was it chance? Was it....who cares?
I'm just thankful to be drawing breath.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
When it comes to faith..I've summed it up pretty simply (for my life that is)(so this is my "PI") If you catch yourself praying to God for help..its a sign that you MUST have faith, because why would you bother if you didn't expect God to do something? Its like a child asking Dad for something..if Dad lets him down time & time again with his requests..then he'll stop asking, because he no longer has "faith" in the Dad. The woman touching the hem of JC's garment had "great" faith..I mean think about it..she didn't ask to be ministered to nor to speak with Jesus..she just figured touching even the hem of the garment would suffice & by golly it did!! Holy hanna...what GREAT faith..she had watched Jesus I'm sure or "heard" about the miracles & made up her own mind what to "try" & try she did. Simple..just the way God designed it. So the next time you do battle over whether to pray or not & YOU decide to go ahead & pray..by golly you've got FAITH!..then its up to God /Jesus whoever to "proove" themselves DAILY to you..& that they will!! JJ
Thanks. Yes, I am still trying to figure out what I believe in that area.
So far, I am thankful that God healed me. I know he did. I hope he continues to heal my life....
But I have this fear that I am going to do something wrong and his love will stop. I KNOW this is not true, but ya know, they pushed that kinda thought at us in rez. and I guess I have not shaken it all off yet.
I am trying to figure out how I feel so I can stop feeling afraid of loosing God's love and miracles.
I guess when I REALLY see he LOVES me no matter what I have done or what I missed hearing or doing... Then, I will see how big his love really is and stop trying to make it into something that can stop. I do not want it to stop. But in weeding out the corps program, I see that somehow during those years, I became afraid that I would do something that would displease God so much that he would not protect me.
The best I can pin point the day this WRONG teaching started was when we had the truck accident going over the mountain at LEAD and all those people were hurt.
First VP came to Emporia and told us how he FELT pain all over his body when he was jolted awake so he prayed....
But then Scary a$$ Big head, loud mouth LOY got up and said (and this is pretty close because it has echoed and bothered me tremendously) "Sometimes the devil has plans and strategies that you cannot stop or prevent. HE is so powerful that he laid this plan out and there was no amount of prayer or revelation that could stop it..."
I kept thinking "You shut-up! Stop saying that! You are making the devil more powerful than God. STOP!!!"
But I sat there and I felt the fear that went over all of us in that room.... After that, it seemed that was the springboard to teaching about the powerful devil!!!!
Even though I did not buy it, some part of me became fearful that day. I was afraid that I would do something that would give the devil more power to hurt me than God was able to stop.
Just sitting in my brain I did not believe it, but down where the issues of life come from I think I did buy it. Especially, when the corps came limping home.
Then when RW (the most injured) killed herself it kind of sealed it in my heart... That I could have the devil do bad things to me that God could not stop.... Mind you, I have never said this out loud or wrote it before, like this, but this thread brought up some "bad food" I ate all those years ago.
So, anytime anything happened I thought the devil is after me because I did something wrong and God cannot stop it...
After a car accident I became agoraphobic for a brief time as I thought, "I cannot go outside or "it'll" get me."
9 days after that accident I had to go to the Doctors and another car hit me (long story/ not my fault). Then, that same day I was driving down an exit ramp and a crazy guy was driving up the ramp!!! Nut case. So, I pulled the curtains and would not leave the house.
Today, after reading your response some how I am able to see the root of all that fear...
It was that day at Emporia with the big forehead screaming about the power of the devil!!!
I think I am having a light bulb moment. A deliverance of sorts! WOW!
It has been a few hours now. And I have been recalling all the wonderful times I had God work in my life.
I think today, I finally pushed LOY's wrong teaching completely from my head.
Nothing I can do makes me worthy of the price paid for me. Nothing I can do makes me worthy of a miracle. It is what Jesus Christ did FOR me that makes me worthy of having God's miracles in my life.
And if I blow it -- and I will as a human being, God will still love me and he still has more power than evil. (Hear that Loy?)
The considerations that you've brought up here are extremely hard to articulate - for me also. Usually, my feeling about miracles is pretty simple - similar to Socks. You just expect that God can take care of things. There is nothing to articulate. Of course that doesn't help anyone else.
I believe you were correct that Corps who died that you were talking about was in the year 74/75. I was living at HQ that year. I remember that year - before that happened - a good friend of mine had put some things together in his thinking about God supplying all our need, yet bad things happening to believers. He sort of cornered Wierwille on the ramifications of that and asked him point blank if that means that God will warn us before something bad happens all the time - that being a need & God supplying needs. Wierwille didn't want to answer him at first, but finally he answered him and said yes, that God would always warn you.
At first I wasn't sure why Wierwille would hesitate to answer that question, but later I figured that he saw the potential for condemnation that knowledge could bring to believers who did have bad things happen to them - you know, if the believer listened, great; if he/she didn't listen, why rub it in? Who knows?
I remember wrestling with some of the questions posited. Was God big enough to take care of us? If not, then our "courage" depended on us, on our own strength of will to walk or for God knowing that we were going to get our a$$e$ kicked in the process - that didn't seem to glorify God any, but us. If God could take care of us, well then we still had to believe as much and walk out on it, but our courage to do so depended upon God's ability to take care of us if we did. I was willing to go that way - hell yeah, to the max. Bring it on.
I think Jesus was confronted with something that touches on this when he heard that Lazarus was sick and said to his disciples, "Let us go into Judaea again." His disciples said, "Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?" Read, "We are going to get our a$$e$ kicked."
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world."
I'm aware of the diservice it seems to do to extwi to remind some of them of this because of the way TWI twisted this attitude inside out, but I think it does a diservice to God and those seeking the power that energizes miracles to hide the truth that God cares for you when you walk like he will protect you - he backs you up.
It wasn't long after VP's explanation of this principle that the Way Corps boy died. TWI intimately tied this result to a generally applicable, causal relationship with your faithfulness to your committment to the household.
TWI twisted this principle from confidence in God's sufficiency to provide to a miserable comforter type attack that asks when was it ever heard that God forsook the righteous? What is your secret sin that you have committed that this misfortune has occurred in your life? One approach is motivated by love & glorifies God's grace while the other is motivated by guilt and glorifies man's ability to be faithful.
Proverbs 26:9 Â As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
The lesson contains truth either way it is told (therein lies its strength), but in the mouth of fools its power is effective to stop the godly work of the hands of the believer. But we believed it because we were conditioned to respect the truth.
I remember being amazed that it seemed to me that all I had to do was be out of fellowship for a brief period and something disasterous was bound to happen. What was the deal? There was something wrong, extremely wrong about it. I believe now that it was similar to the fear that Dot was talking about. Not only that but I feel that it was the action of the spirits of fear, bondage, and deceipt that LOY - and; therefore, everybody else - was continually yelling about. As he cursed the people of the ministry and we believed him, I think it was the action of the spirits at work in him that energized a lot of that uncanny action of the adversary in our lives. The adversary was not particularly kicking or a$$e$ because that is the way of life for people who walk godly who make mistakes. It is not the usual way of life for unbelievers, believers, or anybody other than people who are cursed because of their involvement with leadership who are infested and doing the will of those spirits. It was a set-up, and we walked right into it. Leadership - who were always blaming us underlings for all the problems - had sold out. We were the unhappy recipients of the spiritual influence they allowed into the ministry. We labor not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual wickedness in high places (in the upper echelons of the hierarchy of the ministry was how George Jess, the very first coordinator of the Way Corps, explained it to me. "That's where the fight is right now, & the ministry is up for grabs right now," is how he explained to me in 1973).
We lost.
When I finally got ousted from the ministry, I started to learn that God would love me whatever I did wrong. I have to admit that I pushed it to the limits just to be assured that there was no limit to God's love. I needed to do that to walk (God was still supposed to be a God that supplied needs - all needs); I wouldn't want to walk with a God who would do any less.
We can be pretty unskillful, but basically believe that God will take care of us - and he will. Then it is not our skill at believing that is the big deal.
We can be very skillful at the how of the spiritual walk, but screw up and get hurt. It is not our skill that determines the results - niether is it our mistakes. $hit happens because of a lot of reasons. Your failure to listen to God may be only a small part of the reason and very insignificantly causal - other wise known as the small stuff. It is my experience that those who let $hit affect them the least experience success the most. They don't take it personally; they're just learning how to walk.
I think fear of embarrassment stops people from walking on the water more than any other factor.
Addendum to the miracle I wrote about:
About 10 years after the accident, I met a woman at the Rock whom I had led into an understanding of the working of revelation and power because she just kept walking into amazing situations demanding gifts of healing and pulled them off remarkably with very little training. She told me that I looked like I had healed a lot, but that there was a lot of healing that could still occur. I told her that it had been 10 years since the accident, and the doctors had told me that after seven years, I would be as healed as I was going to get. Her response was well if that's as far as you allow your believing to think that God can take you... Having taught her about the relationship between believing in God's power and healing, I sort of chuckled with embarrassment, said good night, and left.
The next morning, I woke up with a severe sore throat. As I walked out onto the grounds of the Rock, there whe was, walking toward me. Knowing her simple believing where healing was concerned, I asked her to minister to me. She said okay, laid her hands on my head and thanked God that the bones in my head woud move more into a position of naturally designed alignment. I FELT and heard - you know with that hearing that happens inside your skull and not through your eardrums - the bones of my skull move. I'm sorry, but I don't remember if she said anything at all about my sore throat. She looked at me and smiled and said, "There, now you have another seven years of natural healing."
Jesus taught that if you walk in the light, you will not stumble, yet the Word teaches that the righteous will fall seven times and rise up again. Hey, we all fall down. The most successful people in walking in miraculous power that I know, know not only that we can absolutely rely upon God to teach us whatever we need in the spiritual walk and protect us from evil as we walk, but also that they'll fall. The most successful people get ....ed when they fall, but other than that, they don't really spend a lot of time trying to figure it out - they just learn what they can & keep on walking.
If I were Jesus, I could probably explain what I'm trying to say here a lot better, but on this earth, Jesus is still in the making, and I hope that will help some. I'm not going to edit this post, so grant me space please.
Tom
[This message was edited by Thomas Heller on December 28, 2003 at 23:04.]
This has been, IMHO, the best thread on miracles in a long time. Very little of the "I know I was healed by God...are you calling me a liar?" challenges that sometimes gets thrown out, and more of the thoughtful, gentle, thankfullness and love for God that is a result of receiving a powerful gift.
Thanks
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
I usually stay away from these types of discussions with real-life ex-wayfers because they tend to talk to me like my name is Lucifer when I even bring up a question about miracles...I've often thought of that guy in the gospel of Mark who said "Lord,help thou mine unbelief"...It isn't as though I make a conscious,deliberate choice to doubt or be skeptical...It's just how mind works,I guess...
As a believer,I can't say I was really in very many situations,if any,where a miracle,be it healing,calming a storm,or walking across water was warranted...In fact,I thought my life was kind of boring compared to the excitement of signs and wonders following the believers in the book of Acts...
I thought that you made a keen observation about the ministry leadership selling the believers out,and George Jess' insight...In TWI it seemed like the "believing" of a particular individual was glorified beyond God's love and power,hence,so also was the condemnation of an individual when their "believing" did not manifest Godly results....
Still,I would love to see one honest-to-goodness miracle in my life,a validation or a token of things to come...Although,I don't particularly relish the idea of being in a situation of really needing one...
I hear you loud and clear and you seem to have seen what I saw and heard. I had God work in my life back in the innocent twig days... then, the corps leadership deprogrammed us from God's love and the simple believing attached to miracles and answers to prayer by the constant tormented teachings that strogly implied the devil was more powerful than God. We were torn away from God's love and thrust into the arms of Satan, so to speak, when those kind of teachings became ritual.
Even though my mind was saying "shut- up" Somewhere the fear of those words attached themselves to my heart and I began to SEE the devil did want me as a Gease spot. After leaving TWI for the first few years, I felt like I was looking over my shoulder to try and see from where the NEXT evil thing would come.
(Expecting it, I guess)
This helped me to stop looking FOR God's goodness and almost salted the words of the Great Forehead that I would be a grease spot.
We were tricked by his spirits and I do think little spirits went out into the crowd to take us down.
I cannot tell you the almost terror I felt after those back to back accidents -- that LOY might be right. But somehow I would have rather stayed inside my home and died than call LOY and ask for forgiveness. Again, my brain kept telling me LOY was WRONG. Even as I sat there in fear. Nearly paralyzed to do anything for God.
It has taken years and progressive steps to walk out of that kind of thinking. I feel that yesterday FINALLY put "what happened" to me (us) on the table for me. Something I could look at and change, rather than wondering how come I had this fight between my logical head (God loves me) and my fearful heart (but the devil wants my brians splattered on the street and can do it).
Thanks to all who have opened up their hearts- this has been very helpful and loving.
What you have explained, is what Oral Roberts wrote about. In his early books, (1948-65) Oral teaches about putting on the mind of Christ, act like him, talk like him, think like him.
Oral developed an attitude of expecting miracles and showing God's goodness because that is what Christ did, everyday.
I have dug up a gold mine of gems from OR's early works. He ministered healing to over 1 million people. He saw 2oth Century fox miracles, Instant miracles, healing that took place a week, two weeks after ministering, and he also saw people not get healed, even not get healed and die.
OR had to cope with this emotionally and honestly and his conclusions are very similar to yours.
No matter what happens, God is a good God!!!!
Thank you,
A subject not discussed, but VP glemmed many truths from OR
I've seen these types of miracles but never at TWI. At a festival called Jesus 77 (and 79, etc.) some amazing things took place right in front of me. One man's leg grew two inches and regained strength after he was water baptized and prayed for. It was just like the man with the wilted arm. It was obviously thinner than the other and useless. When he stood up they both looked the same and he couldn't stop praising God. It's something I will NEVER forget.
As far as I can tell, there are no real miracles. There is chance, there are coincidences in our minds, and there are frauds.
Chance comes into play when something bad happens that could have been worse or when you avoid something bad. Although it could have been from completely natural causes, you find comfort in attributing it to God because it means that it could happen again if you were ever in another situation like that. The reality is that if a person was caught in traffic and missed a flight where the plane eventually crashed they want to find reason in their life going on. If they had died, there would not seem to have been any miracle. Only unexpected or improbable things are considered miracles.
Then there are coincidences. If you are driving down a dark road and perhaps you subconciously hear a car engine coming you drive a little more careful at the intersection and avoid an accident purely by instinct. God had nothing to do with it, it was just your self-preservation kicking in.
Then there are the frauds that claim miracles in order for personal gain. I don't think there are any of those around here, but there are plenty on church shows on TV.
Anyway, I don't want to insult anyone here, I just don't see anything strong enough to prove that their "miracles" are anything other than chance or a coincidence. If I saw Jesus walking on water, I'd have to put my hand under his shoes to make sure he's not standing on something.
"Granted,if you were trying to trim your fingernails with a chainsaw we might all agree that if you do something that stupid,God may not be able to protect you...But I never understood the line of teaching that when a believer got hurt they could somehow trace it back to where they didn't listen to God."
Best one I remember is one night long ago a bunch of us were driving off to, you guessed it, a class. We had to stop to get gas and use the rest rooms. I was driving and got out of the car while the gang released with boldness. :D--> I looked under the car and peeked around and lo there was a steady drip of something under the back of the car. The gas tank and there was small, slow, but steady leak. I reached under and felt for the hole and smelled it. Yep, petrol. We asked the guy in the garage what we could do. He went to the sink and got a bar of soap and said "get under there and dry it off really quick and rub this around that hole, it'll plug it". I did, and it did. He let me keep the soap just in case. We got it repaired the next day. (I still carry a bar of soap in my tool kit in every car I've ever owned, just in case. Plus, I can always be clean. :P--> )
The coinkidink part of it was that I had no idea why I got out of the car and looked under there. The leak must have just happened on that drive and it wasn't all that big at the time. I didn't smell gas, other than what was coming out of the rest rooms. I just did it and afterwards everyone asked how I knew it was leaky. "Revelation???" Frankly, I had no idea and still don't. I just did it, with almost no thought.
Side note: "socks" is not synonomous with "mechanic". I did the guy thing under the hood with great flourish, but only knew the parts of any car if I'd had to change them out. :D--> Today I am of course a licensed Dude-Man of the Car and able to change out all kinds of things.
Friday afternoon spouse & I were driving on a country road, hills and curves and more hills and curves. I was driving and the sun was directly in my eyes, I mean, I slowed down to about 20 mph and couldn't see a damn thing as I came up to a hilltop. "Can't see a thing." I murmured and without thinking pulled the car hard to the right and speeded up a bit, noticing as I did a glint of yellow paint on my right. Immediately as I got back to my side of the road a huge dump truck roared past in the opposite direction, about 50 mph. I hadn't seen it for the sunlight. We would've been killed in that Civic.
God? Reflexes? Instinct? We're alive. Didn't see it coming at all, got out of the way just in time. Spouse said very quietly. "Woh." After a minute I said, "Now thatwas God."
And to Dot...
So glad you've been freed from the curse of the Loy!
Cool story, WG! It's weird isn't it, how that happened? Of all the things that led to that moment and then all the things that you could have done, you did that. Boink. Sweet. : )
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excathedra
welllllll exxcccccccccccuuuuuuuussssssssseeee me
but i went to wal mart on this here x-mas eve and guess what !!!!!!!!!!!
in the rain and the winds and the godawful weather
i GOT ME a parking spot right in front of the damn doors
YOU tell ME about miracles
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excathedra
and you know what else ? i feel awful about posting that in a way.....
because i love god and i love jesus christ
and i love simonzelotes and geo. aar and dot and tommylitwin
and i have never ever figured out this faith thing
merry christmad and soooooooooo much love to you all
mwah mwah mwah mwah mwah
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Lightside
"We all need healing in a lot of ways all the time."
Great point Thomas.
This was something that Oral Roberts mentioned over and over again in his great crusades of the 40's, 50's and 60's. This, he said was what kept him in the spirit of expecting miracles everyday, and that God could do anything, nothing was impossible with God, even creating a new heart or new bones was possible.
Oral saw from the Word that the earth was out of balance. the animals and humans were out of balance, since the fall of man. Even the earth, to this day, is groaning. And mankind, even at his best, is alittle out of kilter.
This is also what Jesus saw. This is why 23's of Jesus Christ's time on this earth was spent healing the sick.
Jesus Christs goal was to put things back in it's right order and balance; and let his believers and friends know that they too could, in the future, carry that gift of healing to their generation, until the day when God made everything perfect again.
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Dot Matrix
Simon
Lots of #$%#&*^%$ laughs!
Well, I am glad you explained it and I do see where you are coming from. And I did hear explainations such as "God made him sick to heal him" from churches. But if God is love I think that behavior is horrific.
It would be like me tripping you, you falling down, then I help you up so you can talk about how great I am. That kind of thinking always bothered me in church and was one of the things I liked about TWI (back in the day when I liked it). They made me see there was a devil and he caused evil. A God of LOVE would not DO those things. I still believe that. I know different churches I have been to still think God allows the evil; to then come save us-- I have a hard time with a God like that.
So, yes, I have a hard time with some of these things. IF I am in need of a miracle - did God put me in that position or did I bring it on myself, or did the evil one come around and try and hurt me?
With my recent health issues, I recall the day I sliced my arm open - thinking, I shouldn't use this tool - for some reason. But I did anyway. So, I feel God tried like heck to prevent me from being in that position of hurting myself and I did not listen.
That lines up more with a loving father than him causing the storm to stop the storm.
I hope I am explaining myself well. You did and I appreciate what you said for I now see what you are saying in depth. And I can tell you, I have had those thoughts ramble in my mind as well.
As far as the faith thing goes, the Way taught us we were to have faith/believing. (I don't have the tine to seperate it all out) But they made us responsible as if our belieivng was the key to God's heart of love.
That fellow from Greece that prayed for me... The first thing he covered was FAITH. He went through this whole thing about God being responsible for our faith. HE GIVES it to us because HE loves us. Anyway, it was a long conversation that incorporated believing and faith. At the end of which I was able to stop condeming myself every time something happened to me. As if I were not believing.
(The opposite is also true as when good things happen, people say "I was beliveing and this happened" as if "I" brought it to pass. That believing doctrine, to the extent TWI taught it, seemed to take God out. If I do not believe bad happens. If I do believe good happens. At least in the Jesus movement we were always praising GOD or Jesus and not ourselves)
I associate that former thinking with pressure "BELIEVE or else...." We no longer have the joy of the Lord in our lives. And the joy of the Lord is our strength.
Joyce Myer went into it the other day. (paraphrased) She said traffic, people at work, screaming kids or spouse is not really what the devil is trying to do. HE is after your joy.
It hit me. All those wrong teachings to condemn us stole our joy. And when we lost joy we were not strong. Without that strength we can be defeated. We looked to OUR powers of believing. We replaced Jesus with Moggies and we condemned ourselves out of joy.
(This is at least how I felt during my experience in TWI - mostly in the corps I felt this.)
Anyway, I appreciate your answer. I hope I am not rambling but these things are roaming around my heart as well.
...still trying to articulate what I have been seeing...
God is good.
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Dot Matrix
M and O
When did you get in and out?
I saw a lot of great God things happen until I went into the corps and got too close to the crap. Then, I spent a lot of time trying to avoid the nasty mean people in the corps.
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simonzelotes
Dot,I know you're still trying to articulate this in your mind,as I am also(Bullinger),but it sounds like you're blaming yourself for slicing your arm open...Granted,if you were trying to trim your fingernails with a chainsaw we might all agree that if you do something that stupid,God may not be able to protect you...But I never understood the line of teaching that when a believer got hurt they could somehow trace it back to where they didn't listen to God...In fact,it was about my wow year(1974-75)that a way corps guy got killed,a bunch of wows in our town got hurt in a car wreck,...it was like the age of innocence was gone...Then all kinds of teachings started coming out about the devil being after you,and if you don't listen to God,this or this will happen...Not picking on you,just think we beat ourselves up too often for our "unbelief"...
Speaking of unbelief,nice of ex(I love (((((everybody))))) )cathedra to put me in the pile with the faithblasters....Sorry,(((((excie))))),you knows I love you...As much as I enjoy reading testimonies such as Thomas',I find myself being too much like the other Thomas,the doubting one...Maybe I'm looking for more consistency in the category of miracles...I don't think all doubters are as Galen says,half empty type of people...In many ways,the concept of the believer's lifesyle would seemingly render the need for miracles moot....Those that have experienced miracles first-hand seem to have more conviction of their faith than those who have not....
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Oakspear
There are times when we could trace back and see where we made an error that caused an injury, etc. But I think that it's ridiculous to think that a cause can always lead back to a mis-step, or unbelief, etc.
I am the Safety Coordinator where I work. Part of my job is to determine whether employee accidents could have been avoided. A large percentage of the time they can. Like the guy who tried to clean the meat off the slicer blade while it was still turning. Ten stitches.
There is some value, IMHO, in trying to determine whether an accident could have been avoided, so that you can prevent it from happening again. TWI erred in including everything from car accidents to the sniffles to heart attacks to some deficit in "believing".
Another thing (while I'm on a roll). I don't think that dwelling on whether or not something was or wasn't a miracle, or whether prayer was or wasn't effective, or anything else is important. Being thankful, or happy, or relieved about the result is important.
Even if one believes in answered prayer, or miracles, or "faith" healing, it should be obvious that not every prayer is answered, not every bad situation is resolved by a miracle, not every sickness or injury is healed; people die.
Be thankful for what you've got.
If you want to give God credit, fine; if you want to say that random chance or preparedness or having a rich daddy got you out of the mess, that's fine too.
Fifteen years ago I prayed for my son who was very sick. The next day he was well. No trace of the illness. I've gotten to the point where I don't give a $h!t how it happened, I'm just happy as h*ll that I have a healthy son. Maybe it was a miracle, maybe it was just his body fighting back, maybe it was that the doctors knew what they were doing.
It doesn't matter to me.
About two months ago I was in a car wreck. I overslept for work and was in a busy intersection an hour later than I should have been. A car drove through a red light and hit me dead on in the driver's side door. I closed my eyes convinced that my last breath was seconds away. I walked away without a scratch, without a bruise, no problems...except the car was totalled.
Lots of analysis possible here: if I hadn't overslept...if...if...if. Did God save me from injury? Did God cause the point of impact to be six inches forward of the place where the crash would have killed me? Why didn't he just avert the crash?
Who cares?
I'm alive.
Was it God? Was it chance? Was it....who cares?
I'm just thankful to be drawing breath.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Second James
When it comes to faith..I've summed it up pretty simply (for my life that is)(so this is my "PI") If you catch yourself praying to God for help..its a sign that you MUST have faith, because why would you bother if you didn't expect God to do something? Its like a child asking Dad for something..if Dad lets him down time & time again with his requests..then he'll stop asking, because he no longer has "faith" in the Dad. The woman touching the hem of JC's garment had "great" faith..I mean think about it..she didn't ask to be ministered to nor to speak with Jesus..she just figured touching even the hem of the garment would suffice & by golly it did!! Holy hanna...what GREAT faith..she had watched Jesus I'm sure or "heard" about the miracles & made up her own mind what to "try" & try she did. Simple..just the way God designed it. So the next time you do battle over whether to pray or not & YOU decide to go ahead & pray..by golly you've got FAITH!..then its up to God /Jesus whoever to "proove" themselves DAILY to you..& that they will!! JJ
jj
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Dot Matrix
Simon:
Thanks. Yes, I am still trying to figure out what I believe in that area.
So far, I am thankful that God healed me. I know he did. I hope he continues to heal my life....
But I have this fear that I am going to do something wrong and his love will stop. I KNOW this is not true, but ya know, they pushed that kinda thought at us in rez. and I guess I have not shaken it all off yet.
I am trying to figure out how I feel so I can stop feeling afraid of loosing God's love and miracles.
I guess when I REALLY see he LOVES me no matter what I have done or what I missed hearing or doing... Then, I will see how big his love really is and stop trying to make it into something that can stop. I do not want it to stop. But in weeding out the corps program, I see that somehow during those years, I became afraid that I would do something that would displease God so much that he would not protect me.
The best I can pin point the day this WRONG teaching started was when we had the truck accident going over the mountain at LEAD and all those people were hurt.
First VP came to Emporia and told us how he FELT pain all over his body when he was jolted awake so he prayed....
But then Scary a$$ Big head, loud mouth LOY got up and said (and this is pretty close because it has echoed and bothered me tremendously) "Sometimes the devil has plans and strategies that you cannot stop or prevent. HE is so powerful that he laid this plan out and there was no amount of prayer or revelation that could stop it..."
I kept thinking "You shut-up! Stop saying that! You are making the devil more powerful than God. STOP!!!"
But I sat there and I felt the fear that went over all of us in that room.... After that, it seemed that was the springboard to teaching about the powerful devil!!!!
Even though I did not buy it, some part of me became fearful that day. I was afraid that I would do something that would give the devil more power to hurt me than God was able to stop.
Just sitting in my brain I did not believe it, but down where the issues of life come from I think I did buy it. Especially, when the corps came limping home.
Then when RW (the most injured) killed herself it kind of sealed it in my heart... That I could have the devil do bad things to me that God could not stop.... Mind you, I have never said this out loud or wrote it before, like this, but this thread brought up some "bad food" I ate all those years ago.
So, anytime anything happened I thought the devil is after me because I did something wrong and God cannot stop it...
After a car accident I became agoraphobic for a brief time as I thought, "I cannot go outside or "it'll" get me."
9 days after that accident I had to go to the Doctors and another car hit me (long story/ not my fault). Then, that same day I was driving down an exit ramp and a crazy guy was driving up the ramp!!! Nut case. So, I pulled the curtains and would not leave the house.
Today, after reading your response some how I am able to see the root of all that fear...
It was that day at Emporia with the big forehead screaming about the power of the devil!!!
I think I am having a light bulb moment. A deliverance of sorts! WOW!
(Thanks Paw for GS!!!!)
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Dot Matrix
It has been a few hours now. And I have been recalling all the wonderful times I had God work in my life.
I think today, I finally pushed LOY's wrong teaching completely from my head.
Nothing I can do makes me worthy of the price paid for me. Nothing I can do makes me worthy of a miracle. It is what Jesus Christ did FOR me that makes me worthy of having God's miracles in my life.
And if I blow it -- and I will as a human being, God will still love me and he still has more power than evil. (Hear that Loy?)
God is all powerful and loving.
I needed to go over this stuff again today.
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Tom
Simon,
The considerations that you've brought up here are extremely hard to articulate - for me also. Usually, my feeling about miracles is pretty simple - similar to Socks. You just expect that God can take care of things. There is nothing to articulate. Of course that doesn't help anyone else.
I believe you were correct that Corps who died that you were talking about was in the year 74/75. I was living at HQ that year. I remember that year - before that happened - a good friend of mine had put some things together in his thinking about God supplying all our need, yet bad things happening to believers. He sort of cornered Wierwille on the ramifications of that and asked him point blank if that means that God will warn us before something bad happens all the time - that being a need & God supplying needs. Wierwille didn't want to answer him at first, but finally he answered him and said yes, that God would always warn you.
At first I wasn't sure why Wierwille would hesitate to answer that question, but later I figured that he saw the potential for condemnation that knowledge could bring to believers who did have bad things happen to them - you know, if the believer listened, great; if he/she didn't listen, why rub it in? Who knows?
I remember wrestling with some of the questions posited. Was God big enough to take care of us? If not, then our "courage" depended on us, on our own strength of will to walk or for God knowing that we were going to get our a$$e$ kicked in the process - that didn't seem to glorify God any, but us. If God could take care of us, well then we still had to believe as much and walk out on it, but our courage to do so depended upon God's ability to take care of us if we did. I was willing to go that way - hell yeah, to the max. Bring it on.
I think Jesus was confronted with something that touches on this when he heard that Lazarus was sick and said to his disciples, "Let us go into Judaea again." His disciples said, "Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?" Read, "We are going to get our a$$e$ kicked."
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world."
I'm aware of the diservice it seems to do to extwi to remind some of them of this because of the way TWI twisted this attitude inside out, but I think it does a diservice to God and those seeking the power that energizes miracles to hide the truth that God cares for you when you walk like he will protect you - he backs you up.
It wasn't long after VP's explanation of this principle that the Way Corps boy died. TWI intimately tied this result to a generally applicable, causal relationship with your faithfulness to your committment to the household.
TWI twisted this principle from confidence in God's sufficiency to provide to a miserable comforter type attack that asks when was it ever heard that God forsook the righteous? What is your secret sin that you have committed that this misfortune has occurred in your life? One approach is motivated by love & glorifies God's grace while the other is motivated by guilt and glorifies man's ability to be faithful.
Proverbs 26:9 Â As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
The lesson contains truth either way it is told (therein lies its strength), but in the mouth of fools its power is effective to stop the godly work of the hands of the believer. But we believed it because we were conditioned to respect the truth.
I remember being amazed that it seemed to me that all I had to do was be out of fellowship for a brief period and something disasterous was bound to happen. What was the deal? There was something wrong, extremely wrong about it. I believe now that it was similar to the fear that Dot was talking about. Not only that but I feel that it was the action of the spirits of fear, bondage, and deceipt that LOY - and; therefore, everybody else - was continually yelling about. As he cursed the people of the ministry and we believed him, I think it was the action of the spirits at work in him that energized a lot of that uncanny action of the adversary in our lives. The adversary was not particularly kicking or a$$e$ because that is the way of life for people who walk godly who make mistakes. It is not the usual way of life for unbelievers, believers, or anybody other than people who are cursed because of their involvement with leadership who are infested and doing the will of those spirits. It was a set-up, and we walked right into it. Leadership - who were always blaming us underlings for all the problems - had sold out. We were the unhappy recipients of the spiritual influence they allowed into the ministry. We labor not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual wickedness in high places (in the upper echelons of the hierarchy of the ministry was how George Jess, the very first coordinator of the Way Corps, explained it to me. "That's where the fight is right now, & the ministry is up for grabs right now," is how he explained to me in 1973).
We lost.
When I finally got ousted from the ministry, I started to learn that God would love me whatever I did wrong. I have to admit that I pushed it to the limits just to be assured that there was no limit to God's love. I needed to do that to walk (God was still supposed to be a God that supplied needs - all needs); I wouldn't want to walk with a God who would do any less.
We can be pretty unskillful, but basically believe that God will take care of us - and he will. Then it is not our skill at believing that is the big deal.
We can be very skillful at the how of the spiritual walk, but screw up and get hurt. It is not our skill that determines the results - niether is it our mistakes. $hit happens because of a lot of reasons. Your failure to listen to God may be only a small part of the reason and very insignificantly causal - other wise known as the small stuff. It is my experience that those who let $hit affect them the least experience success the most. They don't take it personally; they're just learning how to walk.
I think fear of embarrassment stops people from walking on the water more than any other factor.
Addendum to the miracle I wrote about:
About 10 years after the accident, I met a woman at the Rock whom I had led into an understanding of the working of revelation and power because she just kept walking into amazing situations demanding gifts of healing and pulled them off remarkably with very little training. She told me that I looked like I had healed a lot, but that there was a lot of healing that could still occur. I told her that it had been 10 years since the accident, and the doctors had told me that after seven years, I would be as healed as I was going to get. Her response was well if that's as far as you allow your believing to think that God can take you... Having taught her about the relationship between believing in God's power and healing, I sort of chuckled with embarrassment, said good night, and left.
The next morning, I woke up with a severe sore throat. As I walked out onto the grounds of the Rock, there whe was, walking toward me. Knowing her simple believing where healing was concerned, I asked her to minister to me. She said okay, laid her hands on my head and thanked God that the bones in my head woud move more into a position of naturally designed alignment. I FELT and heard - you know with that hearing that happens inside your skull and not through your eardrums - the bones of my skull move. I'm sorry, but I don't remember if she said anything at all about my sore throat. She looked at me and smiled and said, "There, now you have another seven years of natural healing."
Jesus taught that if you walk in the light, you will not stumble, yet the Word teaches that the righteous will fall seven times and rise up again. Hey, we all fall down. The most successful people in walking in miraculous power that I know, know not only that we can absolutely rely upon God to teach us whatever we need in the spiritual walk and protect us from evil as we walk, but also that they'll fall. The most successful people get ....ed when they fall, but other than that, they don't really spend a lot of time trying to figure it out - they just learn what they can & keep on walking.
If I were Jesus, I could probably explain what I'm trying to say here a lot better, but on this earth, Jesus is still in the making, and I hope that will help some. I'm not going to edit this post, so grant me space please.
Tom
[This message was edited by Thomas Heller on December 28, 2003 at 23:04.]
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Oakspear
This has been, IMHO, the best thread on miracles in a long time. Very little of the "I know I was healed by God...are you calling me a liar?" challenges that sometimes gets thrown out, and more of the thoughtful, gentle, thankfullness and love for God that is a result of receiving a powerful gift.
Thanks
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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simonzelotes
Tom,
I think your unedited version is just fine...
I usually stay away from these types of discussions with real-life ex-wayfers because they tend to talk to me like my name is Lucifer when I even bring up a question about miracles...I've often thought of that guy in the gospel of Mark who said "Lord,help thou mine unbelief"...It isn't as though I make a conscious,deliberate choice to doubt or be skeptical...It's just how mind works,I guess...
As a believer,I can't say I was really in very many situations,if any,where a miracle,be it healing,calming a storm,or walking across water was warranted...In fact,I thought my life was kind of boring compared to the excitement of signs and wonders following the believers in the book of Acts...
I thought that you made a keen observation about the ministry leadership selling the believers out,and George Jess' insight...In TWI it seemed like the "believing" of a particular individual was glorified beyond God's love and power,hence,so also was the condemnation of an individual when their "believing" did not manifest Godly results....
Still,I would love to see one honest-to-goodness miracle in my life,a validation or a token of things to come...Although,I don't particularly relish the idea of being in a situation of really needing one...
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Dot Matrix
Simon
Gentle soul, I believe you will get your miracle.
Tom
I hear you loud and clear and you seem to have seen what I saw and heard. I had God work in my life back in the innocent twig days... then, the corps leadership deprogrammed us from God's love and the simple believing attached to miracles and answers to prayer by the constant tormented teachings that strogly implied the devil was more powerful than God. We were torn away from God's love and thrust into the arms of Satan, so to speak, when those kind of teachings became ritual.
Even though my mind was saying "shut- up" Somewhere the fear of those words attached themselves to my heart and I began to SEE the devil did want me as a Gease spot. After leaving TWI for the first few years, I felt like I was looking over my shoulder to try and see from where the NEXT evil thing would come.
(Expecting it, I guess)
This helped me to stop looking FOR God's goodness and almost salted the words of the Great Forehead that I would be a grease spot.
We were tricked by his spirits and I do think little spirits went out into the crowd to take us down.
I cannot tell you the almost terror I felt after those back to back accidents -- that LOY might be right. But somehow I would have rather stayed inside my home and died than call LOY and ask for forgiveness. Again, my brain kept telling me LOY was WRONG. Even as I sat there in fear. Nearly paralyzed to do anything for God.
It has taken years and progressive steps to walk out of that kind of thinking. I feel that yesterday FINALLY put "what happened" to me (us) on the table for me. Something I could look at and change, rather than wondering how come I had this fight between my logical head (God loves me) and my fearful heart (but the devil wants my brians splattered on the street and can do it).
Thanks to all who have opened up their hearts- this has been very helpful and loving.
Yesterday, I washed LOY off of me.
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Lightside
Thomas Heller,
What you have explained, is what Oral Roberts wrote about. In his early books, (1948-65) Oral teaches about putting on the mind of Christ, act like him, talk like him, think like him.
Oral developed an attitude of expecting miracles and showing God's goodness because that is what Christ did, everyday.
I have dug up a gold mine of gems from OR's early works. He ministered healing to over 1 million people. He saw 2oth Century fox miracles, Instant miracles, healing that took place a week, two weeks after ministering, and he also saw people not get healed, even not get healed and die.
OR had to cope with this emotionally and honestly and his conclusions are very similar to yours.
No matter what happens, God is a good God!!!!
Thank you,
A subject not discussed, but VP glemmed many truths from OR
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JustThinking
Lightside,
I've seen these types of miracles but never at TWI. At a festival called Jesus 77 (and 79, etc.) some amazing things took place right in front of me. One man's leg grew two inches and regained strength after he was water baptized and prayed for. It was just like the man with the wilted arm. It was obviously thinner than the other and useless. When he stood up they both looked the same and he couldn't stop praising God. It's something I will NEVER forget.
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Dot Matrix
I was at Jesus 73. I took PFAL in 1972 but still between the Jesus movement and TWI.
I saw a miracle there as well. The deaf girl, in the tent next to mine, woke the next morning able to hear!!!!!
Really cool!
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Dot Matrix
Oak
Good points!
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excathedra
(((((((simon))))))) 7 hugs on either side (perfect hugs) and simon in the midst
you're not a really a faithblaster. you just THINK....
thank god !!!!
?
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Mister P-Mosh
As far as I can tell, there are no real miracles. There is chance, there are coincidences in our minds, and there are frauds.
Chance comes into play when something bad happens that could have been worse or when you avoid something bad. Although it could have been from completely natural causes, you find comfort in attributing it to God because it means that it could happen again if you were ever in another situation like that. The reality is that if a person was caught in traffic and missed a flight where the plane eventually crashed they want to find reason in their life going on. If they had died, there would not seem to have been any miracle. Only unexpected or improbable things are considered miracles.
Then there are coincidences. If you are driving down a dark road and perhaps you subconciously hear a car engine coming you drive a little more careful at the intersection and avoid an accident purely by instinct. God had nothing to do with it, it was just your self-preservation kicking in.
Then there are the frauds that claim miracles in order for personal gain. I don't think there are any of those around here, but there are plenty on church shows on TV.
Anyway, I don't want to insult anyone here, I just don't see anything strong enough to prove that their "miracles" are anything other than chance or a coincidence. If I saw Jesus walking on water, I'd have to put my hand under his shoes to make sure he's not standing on something.
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Dot Matrix
Simon
By the way, I have laughed about this:
"Granted,if you were trying to trim your fingernails with a chainsaw we might all agree that if you do something that stupid,God may not be able to protect you...But I never understood the line of teaching that when a believer got hurt they could somehow trace it back to where they didn't listen to God."
Mosh - bless you too!
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socks
Coinkidinks - Mosh Man.
Best one I remember is one night long ago a bunch of us were driving off to, you guessed it, a class. We had to stop to get gas and use the rest rooms. I was driving and got out of the car while the gang released with boldness.
:D--> I looked under the car and peeked around and lo there was a steady drip of something under the back of the car. The gas tank and there was small, slow, but steady leak. I reached under and felt for the hole and smelled it. Yep, petrol. We asked the guy in the garage what we could do. He went to the sink and got a bar of soap and said "get under there and dry it off really quick and rub this around that hole, it'll plug it". I did, and it did. He let me keep the soap just in case. We got it repaired the next day. (I still carry a bar of soap in my tool kit in every car I've ever owned, just in case. Plus, I can always be clean. 
:P--> )
The coinkidink part of it was that I had no idea why I got out of the car and looked under there. The leak must have just happened on that drive and it wasn't all that big at the time. I didn't smell gas, other than what was coming out of the rest rooms. I just did it and afterwards everyone asked how I knew it was leaky. "Revelation???" Frankly, I had no idea and still don't. I just did it, with almost no thought.
Side note: "socks" is not synonomous with "mechanic". I did the guy thing under the hood with great flourish, but only knew the parts of any car if I'd had to change them out.
:D--> Today I am of course a licensed Dude-Man of the Car and able to change out all kinds of things.
baby's calling me home,
she keeps on callin' me home....
(boz scaggs)
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Watered Garden
Friday afternoon spouse & I were driving on a country road, hills and curves and more hills and curves. I was driving and the sun was directly in my eyes, I mean, I slowed down to about 20 mph and couldn't see a damn thing as I came up to a hilltop. "Can't see a thing." I murmured and without thinking pulled the car hard to the right and speeded up a bit, noticing as I did a glint of yellow paint on my right. Immediately as I got back to my side of the road a huge dump truck roared past in the opposite direction, about 50 mph. I hadn't seen it for the sunlight. We would've been killed in that Civic.
God? Reflexes? Instinct? We're alive. Didn't see it coming at all, got out of the way just in time. Spouse said very quietly. "Woh." After a minute I said, "Now thatwas God."
And to Dot...
So glad you've been freed from the curse of the Loy!
WG
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socks
Cool story, WG! It's weird isn't it, how that happened? Of all the things that led to that moment and then all the things that you could have done, you did that. Boink. Sweet. : )
baby's calling me home,
she keeps on callin' me home....
(boz scaggs)
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