I have always enjoyed the Rand/Brandon/Objectivist offerings, and if a specific cornfield cult hadn't come along first I probably would have joined that one.
Rand's politics and ontology thrilled me long ago and still intrigue me...you're right, there is no such thing as a "civil" - in fact the term "people" is an abstract, as well as the term "person" - pure abstract generalization to describe an individual who is truly either male or female...
..on rights being derived from man at his best...this was appealing for me as a Randite, and still is in theory, but in practice is as utopian as any brand of Marxism. I think Paul the Apostle states the frustration as well as anyone in his letter to the Romans - discussing the concepts of being able to conceptualize man at his best, before himself and others, and the futility of not being able to pull it off in the nitty gritty world of objects.
I guess in all my wanderings I always come back to the fact that I have consistently shown that, even though I am capable of reasoning what is best for me viz a viz others I am incapable of escaping the circle of failure that follows me, and besides all of that I have a limited time - for I have deduced that I will most likely die at some point.
I, more than ever, need Jesus Christ...
...my zeal for Rand's "system" broke down for me when I had to pit Jesus' admonition and example of sacrifice against Rand's frothing diatribes against such a notion as being duty.
This didn't happen overnight and I really battled with it, and still do. I shared her opinion of Kant and the weakness and boredom that comes from an ethics of categorical imperative.
This seems to be the big question of the day, "Where does self-esteem cease being a Godly, healthy, natural tending of one's existence as an individual, and become an unnatural narcissism?".......and "When does the notion of sacrifice cease being a noble, natural, beneficial act that was exemplified by Jesus (and many other highly esteemed figures in history) and become an entirely wrong way of being where one's raison de etre is to meet all others' needs?"
Sorry for the rambling nature, just loosely threading thoughts...no one is obliged to read these things, thankfully.
[This message was edited by Yanagisawa on August 17, 2002 at 9:43.]
This is a difficult one. I suppose, in part, I would have to decide if I am speaking emotionally or intellectually. How we are defining the term value also comes into play.
I know I have come to value myself much more highly in this past year than I ever have in the past.
I have come to learn, while I may be lacking in education, I am actually capable of learning.
I have found even though I have done some things in the past I am not particularly proud of, I am overall, a decent, loving human being. I have gained the ability to look within myself and see beyond the negative things I've always been told about myself and find the positives.
These are things I can see intellectually and in that way I can value myself. However, my emotions haven't quite caught up with my intellect. I have days when I very much value who I am on an emotional level. I also have days when I do not. Sometimes, this is due to something as simple as getting enough sleep or not.
Occasionally, I have to sit back and re-evaluate what I am doing with my life or that day in my life and change my course of action. Some days re-evaluating is too overwhelming and I just have to ride it out, knowing that tomorrow is a new day and a fresh start.
Excathy - you hit on something very important. Being a mom, and valuing your ability to sacrifice yourself. This is something I also see in myself. But, when I look at this trait in light of boundaries, I often wonder where the "healthy" boundaries are when it comes to self-sacrifice.
One of the things my dad told me years and years ago, when I was still a teenager, was I give too much of myself away to others. I didn't understand what he meant back then. I am starting to understand it now, but I still struggle with it. To sacrifice your own wants or needs for someone else's, is a valuable characteristic. But if we sacrifice too much of ourselves, are we valuing ourselves? Are we taking care of our own wants or needs?
When I became a mother, my entire life changed. I lived almost completely for my chilren. Mom, that was who I was, plain and simple. What I eventually came to realize, was I was so completely mom, the rest of me had gotten lost. This was not good for me and in retrospect, it was not good for my kids either. So another thing I have worked on this past year, was how to incorporate the rest of me back into my life.
Satori - You made some excellent statements. I would like to quote a couple and pose some questions.
"Self-love is not a balance between self-hate and self-worship. It is entirely different. It is the recognition that you began with something valuable (like the parable of the talents) and you made something more valuable of it, or you at least STROVE to make something more valuable of it, with courage, with tenacity, with the best you could muster against the odds."
1. What about those who do not recognize that they began with something valuable, as I am sure would be the case with children who come from abusive or neglectful families?
2. What about those who do not believe that they have "Strove.....with the best they could muster?
Another quote "Self-respect is the inner glow from knowing you've done well, you've done very well, if not your very best, you've made something wonderful. The more proud you can be of your effort, the more you will respect yourself."
1. Zix posed a good question, are self-respect and self esteem the same thing? Or perhaps more directly do YOU think they are?
2. Even when the individual knows they have done their best, how well can one hold up against the assaults of peers and societies that would like to convince them otherwise?
Abigail,
For #1, I would say their self-esteem would be anchored in any value they might discover in themselves. It is very sad when parents do not love their children, or mistake flattery for the sort of encouragement which builds self-respect.
#2 Those who know in their hearts they only gave 50% - for example - cannot tell themselves different. Their self-respect will be affected by their half-hearted effort and half-hearted contribution.
#1(3) I think respect and esteem are very similar. To think of them differently might be worthwhile if it served some greater purpose of building understanding - writers often draw great semantic distinctions where none exist, for the sake if illustrating a point. Not much point here, at the moment.
#2 (4) The great thing about rooting one's self-esteem in one's accomplishments is that you are not so easily criticized unjustifiably. If a crowd of friends and associates told you the sky was not blue, you'd still know the sky was blue. If they told you your accomplishment was a failure but you saw it succeed, you'd still know. You might want to look into why the crowd is so hostile, but they can't take away what you know. They can and will take back their favorable opinions of you. Better not to worry too much about those.
I guess in all my wanderings I always come back to the fact that I have consistently shown that, even though I am capable of reasoning what is best for me _viz a viz_ others I am incapable of escaping the circle of failure that follows me, and besides all of that I have a limited time - for I have deduced that I will most likely die at some point.
I, more than ever, need Jesus Christ...
...my zeal for Rand's "system" broke down for me when I had to pit Jesus' admonition and example of sacrifice against Rand's frothing diatribes against such a notion as being duty.
This seems to be the big question of the day, "Where does self-esteem cease being a Godly, healthy, natural tending of one's existence as an individual, and become an unnatural narcissism?".......and "When does the notion of sacrifice cease being a noble, natural, beneficial act that was exemplified by Jesus (and many other highly esteemed figures in history) and become an entirely wrong way of being where one's _raison de etre_ is to meet all others' needs?"
Narcissism is infatuation with oneself. It is unhealthy to the person. It is therefore a self-destructive behavior, not a self-loving one.
Rand's critics often refer to her essays as "frothing diatribes," or similar descriptives. I've read most, if not all, of her work. Never saw any "frothing diatribes."
Her extremism is in her willingness to pursue the logical conclusion wherever it might lead, not in her emotionalism. I think the description is not at all accurate. It aptly describes the portraits her detractors have painted, but not the woman herself, or her writings.
You say: "...my zeal for Rand's "system" broke down for me when I had to pit Jesus' admonition and example of sacrifice against Rand's frothing diatribes against such a notion as being duty."
I have no idea what you are trying to say. How do you pit an admonition and example of Jesus against that which you consider a "frothing diatribe" in the first place?
Also, the kind of "sacrifice" Rand spoke of was that of "altruism." As a Christian, I had always considered altruism to be a counterfeit of agape.
Altruism robs individuals of their self-esteem, and of their property too. It is the philosophy of the "hive" mentality, the heart and soul of socialism. The individual has no rights and no property in a perfect, altruist world. Everyone is expendable (except those in charge).
Christ did not "sacrifice" in the same way. He completed a transaction. He accomplished (as I understand it) something of value, and received something of great value in return - the "glory set before him." The perfect, capitalist scenario.
Did Jesus have self-respect, or self-esteem? "I and my Father are one." I don't exactly know how that fits, but he was unique, and his "self" was tied into his mission and message, and his being the only begotten Son of God. His identity was one of "royalty," a fairly difficult perspective for most of us to imagine. Andrew and Phillip are princes - their self-esteem is propped up by position and status.
... to let ya all know I am so wanting so much to just jump in this thread... but i'll just kick back and enjoy... quite intriguing... I really not need to say a thing... just letting you all know i am enjoying the perusal...
the right to exist whether you or I like it or not. Secondly, somewhere along the way, God placed His spirit within me and my value soared out of sight. There is nothing or no one who can replace me. I am one of a kind, an individual and when I leave this earth, the world will be worse off for it. Sounds pretty arrogant, eh what? Well, God said it first, not me.
Don't you just love people who have to bring God and Jesus into every discussion? Smile.
Ginger - I can relate very well to your post. I didn't finish college years ago, in part, because I thought I was too dumb to learn and do well. Now I know better.
I too stayed in negative relationships because I figured no one else would want me. And THAT was the biggest mistake because it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy. When I finally got off of that track, initially it was not so much because I believed I could do better or deserved better but because I decided I would rather be alone than with people like that.
It is a gamble, but what a high eh? Leave TWI and then my marriage were probably two of the biggest gambles I ever took and I am sooooo glad I took them.
Do you ever look back and think, "God all of those years I wasted not liking myself and all of the things I could have done differently!!!" I do. I know I learned from all of it and it is why I am who I am today, for that I am thankful because I do like who I am today. But holy cow the years it took to get here!!!!
ACD - What you said about God and your value coming from the holy spirit within you, it was one of the concepts that drew me to TWI in the first place. My value had to come from something outside of myself (God) because I could not see any other way to value myself. Ultimately it is a false self esteem, in my opinion. So I wonder, what if there was no God or Bible to tell you about your God? How would you value yourself then?
I also think it is a great way to skirt personal accountability. If your value comes from God, then the negatives come from the devil. Where do you fit in? What are you responsible for, in terms of your personal value? It is a circular problem. While you may not have to take responsibility for the things you are ashamed of having done, you likewise do not get to receive the credit for the things you could be proud to have done.
Yes, ACD, I love them about as much as I love intestinal flu. More often than not, the people who are overly religious exhibit this holier than thou attitude I find, for lack of a better word, arrogant.
Rumor has it, only one person walked on water, and he hasn't been seen for about two thousand years. Perhaps he's playing skee ball at the Jersey shore.
I think what's being confused here is self esteem and self love. Self love refers to your attitude toward yourself no matter what. Self esteem is rooted in those things you do. (correct me if I'm wrong, Satori ) So, you can love yourself without being proud of everything you've done.
But, the two are closely related. One feeds on the other. The more you love yourself, the more likely you will do things to support that image. Conversely, the less you love yourself, the more likely you will do things to support that image(this can be anything from drug addiction to any other 'vice' you care to mention).
Not unlike a self fulfilling prophecy.
It seems to me, your 'self esteem' comes from a source outside yourself. Should that source be found wanting, I hope you can find your way up from the depths of despair. This is where I find myself at the moment.
The artist formerly known as Kaiserverbalsushikint. (I've lost track..........)
I think this is another of those things that has to be balanced within boundaries and I am to some degree still figuring those boundaries out.
I believe I have a right to honor my wants and needs. In fact, I better because while other's may, I cannot count on them to. Additionally, it is my job and responsibility to do the work to have those wants and needs met.
However, when those wants and needs come at the expense of someone else's wants or needs, ie kids, job, etc., then there are boundaries and a balance to be worked out. Sometimes the kids, job, significant other, have to take precedence for a time. Sometimes my own wants or needs have to.
By nature I am a caretaker, so it is easy for me to put my own wants and needs aside for too long, then I end up burned out, frustrated, and generally not a real fun person to be around. Then I have to take time out for myself. I am getting better at balancing this though, so I don't end up burned out as often.
Of course, I have the right to honor my needs and wants. If I don't do it, who will ? Yes, other people along the journey may help in that respect, but I have the primary responsibility to do what I can to bring it about.
This is not to say I will do this to the detriment of other people if at all possible. As much as I can, it will be a win-win situation.
The artist formerly known as Kaiserverbalsushikint. (I've lost track..........)
I suppose one could also look at this as am I able to love?
Again, I would answer yes.
And again those would be the intellectual answers. On an emotional level, the degree to which I feel I am worthy of love and the degree to which I am able to love are directly related to each other. On my average and good days, I am more capable of both. On the days that are not so good, I am less capable of both.
For some reason I ignored this thread until receiving a gentle suggestion to come visit it.
So here I am!
Do I have a right to exist?
Yes, I do; simply because I DO exist. To attack it from the opposite side; since I exist, can anyone tell me why I SHOULDN'T?
Do I have the right to honor my needs and wants and treat them as important?
As an adult only I can determine what my needs and wants are. Only I truly know what they are, therfore only I can honor them - like someone else said - if I don't, who will?
Am I loveable?
For this I think I need to resort to outside opinion, and it's mixed results. Some people think I am a very bad person, some think I am the biggest @$$h*le to come down the pike and some think I am perfect. Okay, nobody thinks I'm perfect, but enough think I'm loveable that I'll defer to their opinion.
Ah...I feel so good about myself now!
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
I have been learning in my communications class a little bit about the factors which contribute to how we see ourselves. One of these is how other people respond to us. Perhaps more accurately, how we interpret their response.
Another factor is what other people tell us about ourselves.
However, I think it is important for us to be able to look within ourselves and decide for ourselves if we love what we see. It can be a difficult process, especially if we see a lot of things we don't love. We then have to sort through those "unloveable" characteristics and decide which ones we can accept as a part of our imperfect humanness and which ones we want to change.
Basing our self love solely on outside sources can become a self-destructive cycle. If we don't love ourselves we will tend to surround ourselves with those who will reaffirm the belief we are unloveable.
Resorting to the opinion of others, but not solely.
Prior to my exit from twi, I was surrounded by people who did not think I was loveable based on their narrow and legalistic standards. I absorbed this judgement as part of my own self view.
Since exiting I have tried to like myself irrespective of others' opinions, however feedback from others gives a gauge, however imperfect, of "loveability".
Thanks for the vote of confidence Abi!
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Because of certain events in my life, I have a difficult time with this. I know it's going to take some time for me to get to the place where I do love myself. But, I'm working on it.
The past is a powerful reminder of the things I've done and am not really proud of. It rears its ugly head a lot more than I would like it to. I know I can't undo those things, but I need to learn to 'dance' with them.
Intellectually, I know I am lovable. Emotionally, that's a totally different story. Childhood was the textbook nightmare (I'll spare you the sordid details). It didn't do a whole lot for my self esteem. It seems the nightmare is one most of us share.
Perhaps if I had more self esteem at the time TWI insinuated itself into my life, I wouldn't have hung around for the seven years I did. But there's another thing to consider. I wouldn't have the life I have now. I wouldn't have met the people I have here, if only virtually for most of you.
You just never know where life is going to take you. I'm going to sit back and relax and enjoy the trip.
The artist formerly known as Kaiserverbalsushikint. (I've lost track..........)
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I am of high value to myself.
The artist formerly known as Kaiserverbalsushikint. (I've lost track..........)
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excathedra
thanks 84 for sharing of yourself. i can relate
am i of high value to "myself"
i know i'm extremely valuable to my child, being a mom is probably my greatest asset, but is that because self sacrifice comes so easily to me?
high value to MYSELF
let's put it this way -- A LOT more than i used to be, A LOT more, i mean A LOT more
i think if i had valued myself more my life would have taken different turns
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Yanagisawa
I have always enjoyed the Rand/Brandon/Objectivist offerings, and if a specific cornfield cult hadn't come along first I probably would have joined that one.
Rand's politics and ontology thrilled me long ago and still intrigue me...you're right, there is no such thing as a "civil" - in fact the term "people" is an abstract, as well as the term "person" - pure abstract generalization to describe an individual who is truly either male or female...
..on rights being derived from man at his best...this was appealing for me as a Randite, and still is in theory, but in practice is as utopian as any brand of Marxism. I think Paul the Apostle states the frustration as well as anyone in his letter to the Romans - discussing the concepts of being able to conceptualize man at his best, before himself and others, and the futility of not being able to pull it off in the nitty gritty world of objects.
I guess in all my wanderings I always come back to the fact that I have consistently shown that, even though I am capable of reasoning what is best for me viz a viz others I am incapable of escaping the circle of failure that follows me, and besides all of that I have a limited time - for I have deduced that I will most likely die at some point.
I, more than ever, need Jesus Christ...
...my zeal for Rand's "system" broke down for me when I had to pit Jesus' admonition and example of sacrifice against Rand's frothing diatribes against such a notion as being duty.
This didn't happen overnight and I really battled with it, and still do. I shared her opinion of Kant and the weakness and boredom that comes from an ethics of categorical imperative.
This seems to be the big question of the day, "Where does self-esteem cease being a Godly, healthy, natural tending of one's existence as an individual, and become an unnatural narcissism?".......and "When does the notion of sacrifice cease being a noble, natural, beneficial act that was exemplified by Jesus (and many other highly esteemed figures in history) and become an entirely wrong way of being where one's raison de etre is to meet all others' needs?"
Sorry for the rambling nature, just loosely threading thoughts...no one is obliged to read these things, thankfully.
[This message was edited by Yanagisawa on August 17, 2002 at 9:43.]
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Abigail
This is a difficult one. I suppose, in part, I would have to decide if I am speaking emotionally or intellectually. How we are defining the term value also comes into play.
I know I have come to value myself much more highly in this past year than I ever have in the past.
I have come to learn, while I may be lacking in education, I am actually capable of learning.
I have found even though I have done some things in the past I am not particularly proud of, I am overall, a decent, loving human being. I have gained the ability to look within myself and see beyond the negative things I've always been told about myself and find the positives.
These are things I can see intellectually and in that way I can value myself. However, my emotions haven't quite caught up with my intellect. I have days when I very much value who I am on an emotional level. I also have days when I do not. Sometimes, this is due to something as simple as getting enough sleep or not.
Occasionally, I have to sit back and re-evaluate what I am doing with my life or that day in my life and change my course of action. Some days re-evaluating is too overwhelming and I just have to ride it out, knowing that tomorrow is a new day and a fresh start.
Excathy - you hit on something very important. Being a mom, and valuing your ability to sacrifice yourself. This is something I also see in myself. But, when I look at this trait in light of boundaries, I often wonder where the "healthy" boundaries are when it comes to self-sacrifice.
One of the things my dad told me years and years ago, when I was still a teenager, was I give too much of myself away to others. I didn't understand what he meant back then. I am starting to understand it now, but I still struggle with it. To sacrifice your own wants or needs for someone else's, is a valuable characteristic. But if we sacrifice too much of ourselves, are we valuing ourselves? Are we taking care of our own wants or needs?
When I became a mother, my entire life changed. I lived almost completely for my chilren. Mom, that was who I was, plain and simple. What I eventually came to realize, was I was so completely mom, the rest of me had gotten lost. This was not good for me and in retrospect, it was not good for my kids either. So another thing I have worked on this past year, was how to incorporate the rest of me back into my life.
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satori
Abigail,
For #1, I would say their self-esteem would be anchored in any value they might discover in themselves. It is very sad when parents do not love their children, or mistake flattery for the sort of encouragement which builds self-respect.
#2 Those who know in their hearts they only gave 50% - for example - cannot tell themselves different. Their self-respect will be affected by their half-hearted effort and half-hearted contribution.
#1(3) I think respect and esteem are very similar. To think of them differently might be worthwhile if it served some greater purpose of building understanding - writers often draw great semantic distinctions where none exist, for the sake if illustrating a point. Not much point here, at the moment.
#2 (4) The great thing about rooting one's self-esteem in one's accomplishments is that you are not so easily criticized unjustifiably. If a crowd of friends and associates told you the sky was not blue, you'd still know the sky was blue. If they told you your accomplishment was a failure but you saw it succeed, you'd still know. You might want to look into why the crowd is so hostile, but they can't take away what you know. They can and will take back their favorable opinions of you. Better not to worry too much about those.
Regards...
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satori
Narcissism is infatuation with oneself. It is unhealthy to the person. It is therefore a self-destructive behavior, not a self-loving one.
Rand's critics often refer to her essays as "frothing diatribes," or similar descriptives. I've read most, if not all, of her work. Never saw any "frothing diatribes."
Her extremism is in her willingness to pursue the logical conclusion wherever it might lead, not in her emotionalism. I think the description is not at all accurate. It aptly describes the portraits her detractors have painted, but not the woman herself, or her writings.
You say: "...my zeal for Rand's "system" broke down for me when I had to pit Jesus' admonition and example of sacrifice against Rand's frothing diatribes against such a notion as being duty."
I have no idea what you are trying to say. How do you pit an admonition and example of Jesus against that which you consider a "frothing diatribe" in the first place?
Also, the kind of "sacrifice" Rand spoke of was that of "altruism." As a Christian, I had always considered altruism to be a counterfeit of agape.
Altruism robs individuals of their self-esteem, and of their property too. It is the philosophy of the "hive" mentality, the heart and soul of socialism. The individual has no rights and no property in a perfect, altruist world. Everyone is expendable (except those in charge).
Christ did not "sacrifice" in the same way. He completed a transaction. He accomplished (as I understand it) something of value, and received something of great value in return - the "glory set before him." The perfect, capitalist scenario.
Did Jesus have self-respect, or self-esteem? "I and my Father are one." I don't exactly know how that fits, but he was unique, and his "self" was tied into his mission and message, and his being the only begotten Son of God. His identity was one of "royalty," a fairly difficult perspective for most of us to imagine. Andrew and Phillip are princes - their self-esteem is propped up by position and status.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
... to let ya all know I am so wanting so much to just jump in this thread... but i'll just kick back and enjoy... quite intriguing... I really not need to say a thing... just letting you all know i am enjoying the perusal...
Stevo
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aCertainDiciple
the right to exist whether you or I like it or not. Secondly, somewhere along the way, God placed His spirit within me and my value soared out of sight. There is nothing or no one who can replace me. I am one of a kind, an individual and when I leave this earth, the world will be worse off for it. Sounds pretty arrogant, eh what? Well, God said it first, not me.
Don't you just love people who have to bring God and Jesus into every discussion? Smile.
acd
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excathedra
oh stevo do jump in
i so value your sweetwildsoul
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Abigail
Oneyed!!! Post away, please!!!
ExCathy - Hi.
Ginger - I can relate very well to your post. I didn't finish college years ago, in part, because I thought I was too dumb to learn and do well. Now I know better.
I too stayed in negative relationships because I figured no one else would want me. And THAT was the biggest mistake because it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy. When I finally got off of that track, initially it was not so much because I believed I could do better or deserved better but because I decided I would rather be alone than with people like that.
It is a gamble, but what a high eh? Leave TWI and then my marriage were probably two of the biggest gambles I ever took and I am sooooo glad I took them.
Do you ever look back and think, "God all of those years I wasted not liking myself and all of the things I could have done differently!!!" I do. I know I learned from all of it and it is why I am who I am today, for that I am thankful because I do like who I am today. But holy cow the years it took to get here!!!!
ACD - What you said about God and your value coming from the holy spirit within you, it was one of the concepts that drew me to TWI in the first place. My value had to come from something outside of myself (God) because I could not see any other way to value myself. Ultimately it is a false self esteem, in my opinion. So I wonder, what if there was no God or Bible to tell you about your God? How would you value yourself then?
I also think it is a great way to skirt personal accountability. If your value comes from God, then the negatives come from the devil. Where do you fit in? What are you responsible for, in terms of your personal value? It is a circular problem. While you may not have to take responsibility for the things you are ashamed of having done, you likewise do not get to receive the credit for the things you could be proud to have done.
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excathedra
hi abi !!
this is a wonderful discussion
as a child i felt "destined" for something really great, i wonder what that was all about
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84
Yes, ACD, I love them about as much as I love intestinal flu. More often than not, the people who are overly religious exhibit this holier than thou attitude I find, for lack of a better word, arrogant.
Rumor has it, only one person walked on water, and he hasn't been seen for about two thousand years. Perhaps he's playing skee ball at the Jersey shore.
I think what's being confused here is self esteem and self love. Self love refers to your attitude toward yourself no matter what. Self esteem is rooted in those things you do. (correct me if I'm wrong, Satori ) So, you can love yourself without being proud of everything you've done.
But, the two are closely related. One feeds on the other. The more you love yourself, the more likely you will do things to support that image. Conversely, the less you love yourself, the more likely you will do things to support that image(this can be anything from drug addiction to any other 'vice' you care to mention).
Not unlike a self fulfilling prophecy.
It seems to me, your 'self esteem' comes from a source outside yourself. Should that source be found wanting, I hope you can find your way up from the depths of despair. This is where I find myself at the moment.
The artist formerly known as Kaiserverbalsushikint. (I've lost track..........)
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84
And now for the next round .
Do you feel you have the right to honor your needs and wants, and treat them as important ?
The artist formerly known as Kaiserverbalsushikint. (I've lost track..........)
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excathedra
"Do you feel you have the right to honor your needs and wants, and treat them as important ?"
sorry i'll get back to you on this
[This message was edited by excathedra on August 21, 2002 at 4:48.]
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excathedra
that little pic of the "thumbs down"
the adversary put that there
i didn't
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Abigail
honoring my wants and needs.......
I think this is another of those things that has to be balanced within boundaries and I am to some degree still figuring those boundaries out.
I believe I have a right to honor my wants and needs. In fact, I better because while other's may, I cannot count on them to. Additionally, it is my job and responsibility to do the work to have those wants and needs met.
However, when those wants and needs come at the expense of someone else's wants or needs, ie kids, job, etc., then there are boundaries and a balance to be worked out. Sometimes the kids, job, significant other, have to take precedence for a time. Sometimes my own wants or needs have to.
By nature I am a caretaker, so it is easy for me to put my own wants and needs aside for too long, then I end up burned out, frustrated, and generally not a real fun person to be around. Then I have to take time out for myself. I am getting better at balancing this though, so I don't end up burned out as often.
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Of course, I have the right to honor my needs and wants. If I don't do it, who will ? Yes, other people along the journey may help in that respect, but I have the primary responsibility to do what I can to bring it about.
This is not to say I will do this to the detriment of other people if at all possible. As much as I can, it will be a win-win situation.
The artist formerly known as Kaiserverbalsushikint. (I've lost track..........)
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Since the needs and wants question was so popular, I suppose we'll move on to the next question.
Are you lovable ?
The artist formerly known as Kaiserverbalsushikint. (I've lost track..........)
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Abigail
I understand this to mean am I worthy of love.
My answer here is yes, I am loveable.
I suppose one could also look at this as am I able to love?
Again, I would answer yes.
And again those would be the intellectual answers. On an emotional level, the degree to which I feel I am worthy of love and the degree to which I am able to love are directly related to each other. On my average and good days, I am more capable of both. On the days that are not so good, I am less capable of both.
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Oakspear
For some reason I ignored this thread until receiving a gentle suggestion to come visit it.
So here I am!
Do I have a right to exist?
Yes, I do; simply because I DO exist. To attack it from the opposite side; since I exist, can anyone tell me why I SHOULDN'T?
Do I have the right to honor my needs and wants and treat them as important?
As an adult only I can determine what my needs and wants are. Only I truly know what they are, therfore only I can honor them - like someone else said - if I don't, who will?
Am I loveable?
For this I think I need to resort to outside opinion, and it's mixed results. Some people think I am a very bad person, some think I am the biggest @$$h*le to come down the pike and some think I am perfect. Okay, nobody thinks I'm perfect, but enough think I'm loveable that I'll defer to their opinion.
Ah...I feel so good about myself now!
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Abigail
can I comment? hehehe I will anyway.
I have been learning in my communications class a little bit about the factors which contribute to how we see ourselves. One of these is how other people respond to us. Perhaps more accurately, how we interpret their response.
Another factor is what other people tell us about ourselves.
However, I think it is important for us to be able to look within ourselves and decide for ourselves if we love what we see. It can be a difficult process, especially if we see a lot of things we don't love. We then have to sort through those "unloveable" characteristics and decide which ones we can accept as a part of our imperfect humanness and which ones we want to change.
Basing our self love solely on outside sources can become a self-destructive cycle. If we don't love ourselves we will tend to surround ourselves with those who will reaffirm the belief we are unloveable.
BTW, for the record I think you are loveable.
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Oakspear
Resorting to the opinion of others, but not solely.
Prior to my exit from twi, I was surrounded by people who did not think I was loveable based on their narrow and legalistic standards. I absorbed this judgement as part of my own self view.
Since exiting I have tried to like myself irrespective of others' opinions, however feedback from others gives a gauge, however imperfect, of "loveability".
Thanks for the vote of confidence Abi!
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Because of certain events in my life, I have a difficult time with this. I know it's going to take some time for me to get to the place where I do love myself. But, I'm working on it.
The past is a powerful reminder of the things I've done and am not really proud of. It rears its ugly head a lot more than I would like it to. I know I can't undo those things, but I need to learn to 'dance' with them.
Intellectually, I know I am lovable. Emotionally, that's a totally different story. Childhood was the textbook nightmare (I'll spare you the sordid details). It didn't do a whole lot for my self esteem. It seems the nightmare is one most of us share.
Perhaps if I had more self esteem at the time TWI insinuated itself into my life, I wouldn't have hung around for the seven years I did. But there's another thing to consider. I wouldn't have the life I have now. I wouldn't have met the people I have here, if only virtually for most of you.
You just never know where life is going to take you. I'm going to sit back and relax and enjoy the trip.
The artist formerly known as Kaiserverbalsushikint. (I've lost track..........)
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I know you've ALL been waiting for this, so here it is.
I will usually be liked and respected by the people I like and respect.
The artist formerly known as Kaiserverbalsushikint. (I've lost track..........)
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