?This is precisely why it is important to call things what they are so that people CAN understand the effects. When testimonies of abuse are quickly labeled as something which they are not, it has the effect of sensationalizing and minimizing the event rather than exposing it for what it is.?
Are we reading the same threads? The labels that are quickly applied, that minimize the abuse, are ?sexual harassment?, ?adultery?, ?illicit sex?, ?infidelity?, etc. Very seldom does anyone initially call it ?rape.? Rather, they say that it is like rape, which it is. In fact, much of it is indistinguishable from rape, unless the type of force used defines rape.
?I think there is far more power in the actual accounts of VPW's abuse, then in the clever (and sometimes overstated) labels that people sometimes attach to it.?
Clever labels? Like ?adultery?? That ?clever label? is what prompted Excathedra to start this thread. EVERY SINGLE TIME someone gives an account of abuse on these forums, people come along and label it as something much less than what it is.
?Furthermore, Long Gone, your long indictment of Oldiesman was premised on a simple misunderstanding he had of what was written in one of the posts.?
No it wasn?t. It may have been ?a simple misunderstanding? on his part, but not about ?one of the posts.? He has repeatedly treated specific statements as general ones, and qualified statements as absolutes. He has repeatedly minimized real examples of abuse, by proposing ?possible? examples that might not be abuse and saying that people were making sweeping, overstated claims that they never made. I cited some examples.
?He has never said or implied anywhere that anyone is ?playing the victim.? What would make you think that other than your own misunderstanding of what he is saying??
You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. My last post was neither addressed to nor about Oldiesman.
?Also, I'm curious. Did you read the full article that was linked at the beginning of this thread? I won't offer a critique lest I get yelled at for being too ignorant to know how to write one, but I'll say this: The article was not an indictment against aggressive sexual predators, but against male sexuality.?
If that?s what you got out of it, you completely misunderstood it.
You know what else is sick? Some of the parties these girls, not yet at the drinking age of 21, went to.... Well, there was Howard and other old guys and they had booze. They got these kids drinking and then these old guys started kissing on them with an overall orgy flavor to the event.
Now, suppose one of your kids said, "Mom and Dad, I went to this lecture of Jesus. It was great! But then I was asked to a party and the old minister and other old male church people gave us drinks and were pulling us on top of them touching us! Mom and Dad, I was so drunk one of the old men placed his hand under my panties!"
We would all be outraged and go do some .... kicking.
Yet, here some of us sit and discuss if maybe VPW was a little horny or the 70's were a free sex period... I grew up in the 70's and I was not into free sex and the idiot Weirwille tried to get me.
The poor little friend of mine who went in the coach and was asked to give him a back rub had never even seen a penis before and that was in the 70's!
He was a criminal and he used GOD to do his crimes!
And if you still like PFAL -- Great! I consider it a great book written by BG Leonard.
Just call a spade a spade; although very interesting, we should not have to generate 5 pages of dialogue to convince someone VPW was messed up. If we look at the accounts it does not need commentary. I guess that is why sometimes I tire of all this. Olds think what you want. Your questions were answered. You have the right to ask, but if you dig your heels in and continue to defend VPW then that is your choice and your problem. I told you a lot of what I know. I have more accounts I know of, but I don?t think you can hear all of it at once. It?s okay to have your own opinion and I do not take that from you. But I do not want to rehash this 400 ways and have the same resolve. My goal is to be honest not to make you a VP hater. I just want you to know who you are defending. And if you choose to do so, that is okay. I just weary of these ardent loyals to a con-artist.
Forgive me, you have the right to handle things at your own pace... You can think what you want.
Olds, I do need to leave this thread for awhile.
Good luck in digesting all of this.
Everyone -- love to you!! Interesting points and stories. I hope some folks still in TWI leave as a result -- If that happens then the 5 pages of commentary were worth the slight headahche.... :D-->
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 12:36.]
Please feel free to keep posting your stories and recollections; rest assured, I (and I'm sure lots of other folks posting and not posting) are listening.
laleo- I don't think I can say it any better than Long Gone.
Yes, testimonials are powerful, but they only support and explain the labels.
No, not all of Dots posts were rape. But does that really matter. If you rape one person, you are a rapist. If you do it several times, your a serial rapist. It is not "calling him something other than what he was". Just because every instance was not rape does not change that fact.
Labels have a purpose. Lets not ignore it.
laleo said:
quote: Yes, Abigail, it sure does "feel" like rape, but calling it "rape" only reinforces the sense of powerlessness that women feel who have been violated. Things need to stay in perspective.
It is words like "violated" that confuse the issue and lessen the impact of what "sick phucks" do. So, yes, lets please keep things in perspective.
Abigail said
quote: For me, calling it rape validated my feelings of shame, powerlessness, objectification, etc. This in turn allowed me to deal with those emotions and then overcome them. It did not reinforce the sense of powerlessness, it helped me overcome it. Once the sense of powerlessness was validated, I was able to figure out why I felt powerless and find ways to take back the power I had lost.
I agree. I have had a lot of female friends that have been raped and/or abused in some way. Most of them agree as well. Even if it does reinforce thier sence of powerlessness, why would that be so bad. It was not their F***ing fault!
If any of you have a problem with the term rape in relation to VPW, I'm not going to be one to say sorry and make up another name for you.
DEAL WITH IT!
and get used to it because it was/is the truth. OK?
Lets stop negating the seriousness of what he did by whining about labels and how dissimilar some of the details were.
Lets do as Dot requested and "LOOK AT THE THINGS HE DID AND FORGET THE SIGNS THESE YOUNG GIRLS DID OR DID NOT DO." That will without a doubt reinforce the labels.
I'm sorry if I was the one that opened that can of worms. It was not what I meant or intended.
I'll repeat LONG GONE
quote:In cases of forcible rape, there can be a sort of ?disconnect? between body and soul. A victim can have a sense of, ?He stole my body but not my soul.? In cases of incest, ministerial or professional abuse, and some others, there is no such disconnect. In those cases, access to the body is gained through the soul. At minimum, it is a level of betrayal that most men, and many women, have difficulty understanding. In many cases, it is even more than that. ?Soul stealing? is an apt description.
and alfakat
quote: now, let's multiply that account, complete with Dot's 3 friends by a factor of, say, a nice, round 100--now wadda ya say?????
Calling him a serial rapist doesn't say every account was rape, but that many were and the others didn't get as far as he would have liked.
Can I say that any other way?
Soul stealing is the perfect name for this thread.
Yet, here some of us sit and discuss if maybe VPW was a little horny or the 70's were a free sex period... I grew up in the 70's and I was not into free sex and the idiot Weirwille tried to get me.
Excy was absolutely right to call me on my use of the word "horndog" in the other thread. I've called him adulterer, I've called him abuser. And as I've said over and over again, I find his actions reprehensible and indefensible.
Using a word like "horndog" might be interpreted as minimizing my feelings about what Wierwille did. I hope not. I hope my record on this issue speaks louder than my casual use of a single word. Nonetheless, I apologize. It was thoughtless.
I haven't said "rapist" in describing Wierwille. It's instinctual at this point: call it a job hazard. I tend not to call people criminals until after they are convicted, or at least tried. Osama's the exception. Violating that rule can get me sued.
Incidentally, no one can sue for libel on behalf of a dead man. You can say whatever you want about a dead person, but a legacy cannot be libeled, legally. Isn't that fascinating?
I know, not the point of this thread. Or this post for that matter.
I simply and unreservedly apologize for anything I said that made light of Wierwille's behavior. I view his actions with the utmost gravity, and I have nothing but contempt for those who casually dismiss these stories while accepting Wierwille's snowstorms as divine revelation.
Thanks Laleo. My posts are true if they are powerful that makes it worth any rebutal. Thanks
Raf- your support has been wonderful.
Ex- I know none of this was your fault with that dumba ss Weirwille!
Long Gone - Great posts
Olds - I am glad you are listening
Lindy - thanks!
Abagail -thanks to you too!
Orange Cat - Bless your little orange self!
QQ - great posts
Great insight -- everyone!
____________________________
Olds: Another story. A young girl, early corps, I believe she was 18 years old at the time... VPW got her drinking and had sex with her. She thought they had a beautiful special relationship.
They had a special place where they would meet and have sex. She convinced herself that he loved her even though he got her drunk to "get her" the first time. (I guess it was the only way she could handle it)
One day, she went to their meeting place thinking the MOG of the world LOVED her and there she saw him having sex with her best friend another 18 year old girl. There were glasses and empty booze bottles laying around.
She froze in the door and then realized he was not in love with her as her little mind had reconciled VPW's actions. He got her drunk and used her, then he played with her emotions to continue to have sex with an 18 year old little girl.
It can be argued that she wanted it as she went back. But who at 18 years old thinks their old man minister is going to get them drunk and sleep with them? So, she thought he loved her.
She was 18 years old. She was a stupid kid. That may not be conventional rape but it was certainly soul stealing.
This girl became my Branch Leader and told me this one night.... So many of us had stories.
I need a nap! --> This stuff can wear ya out!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 16:00.]
Maybe my reading comprehension ain't what it used to be, but rather than "privately interpret" what you just said, I'd rather just ask you what you mean. :)-->
I think Charlie is saying some raped women could turn to their church. VPW's victims could not even go to their minister as HE was the offending party.
if the man of god is the predator and the church is in awe of the leader,where to they go for comfort and reassurance?
you say your profession keeps you from speaking about people unless convicted,then you say dead people can't sue you
Rafael,
quote:Maybe my reading comprehension ain't what it used to be, but rather than "privately interpret" what you just said, I'd rather just ask you what you mean.
I think Charlie is saying some raped women could turn to their church. VPW's victims could not even go to their minister as HE was the offending party.
You have made a great point. Those who were violated and betrayed by VPW had noone to turn to for comfort or support. It has been pretty well documented here and other places that those who dared protest or speak up about their experiences with "the man of God for our day and time," were demonized, slandered, and worse. The list is very long.
VPW fit this description to a tee, and I didn't have to "see" it to know he did it, and to know he passed that legacy of destruction on to his many minions
He started with his own wife, and then affected hundreds of others with his vile doctrines..............men and women
VPW raped us all and laughed each time a deposit was made at the bank
Long Gone, I don't know what to say. I think you just don't like me. Or maybe you're being stubborn. I don't know. But I do know I don't feel like being at odds with you. Dot said it better than I can: "If we look at the accounts it does not need commentary."
excathedra, I don't doubt that the article was helpful. I thought it had a lot of good information in it, and was written with compassion and understanding. However, I think some of the pronouncements in the article were too sweeping. But thanks for posting it.
oldiesman, When alfakat mentioned (on another thread, I think) that you were a former WayDale poster, I wracked my brain trying to connect you with another handle. Your posts didn't sound familiar to me. Then the day dawned, and I remembered your former posts. I don't know you but my impression of you then is the same impression I have of you now. I don't think you are a former Way leader. I don't believe you ever had anything to do with the corruption that was in The Way. I think you were the guy sitting next to me at Twig, who shared his Bible when I left mine at home. I think you're the guy who worked a steady job, and had enough left over to treat everyone to pizza after witnessing night. My guess is that you were the one who handed me your car keys when I needed to get to work. Heck, you probably were even the guy who gave me your car when it was time for you to buy a new one. I met dozens of guys like you. You came in the middle of the night to fix a flat tire, brought me a cup of coffee at break, let me bum cigarettes off of you, and slipped me twenty dollars when I ran out of money at the Rock. You may have cracked a few jokes, but I don't think you made an inappropriate advance toward any of your "sisters in Christ." I think you were the backbone of the "ministry." You made a believer out of me. My guess is that it's so hard for you to accept VPW's abuse because it would never occur to you to be abusive, and you have a hard time grasping the idea that someone who won your trust and loyalty and respect could be so unworthy of it. I don't think you're anything like him. The insults and accusations he gets here -- he earned every single one. He doesn't deserve you. You're better than he ever thought to be. Maybe I'm wrong about you, oldiesman. But I don't think so. You don't have it in you to hurt anyone. VPW did. Let him go.
I thought the article was very effective, but I agree it did not account for reasonable and real-life relationships between "unequals." That was not its purpose. The writer could not afford to dilute the message with anecdotes of happy endings because people don't understand how bad the problem really is. Sexual harrassment and abuse is rampant in work environments all over the world. Rampant doesn't mean everywhere. It means rampant. By its nature it often goes unmentioned, covered up, lived down, swept under the rug.
Is every unequal relationship the same? Of course not. But each presents the same temptations to the one with power, and the same risks to the one without. Education is more needful than legislation, but legislation is needful. That is why we have it. The article was written to make the most waves against the tide of prevailing opinion. It may lose more readers, but reach more hearts. That must be the writer's hope.
laleo, that was well-written. I knew some of those people too. There may be more than a few of them here. Their ideals haven't changed, nor their loyalties, nor their faith.
Same people. All that has changed is they do know now, what they did not know then.
quote: "My guess is that it's so hard for you to accept VPW's abuse because it would never occur to you to be abusive, and you have a hard time grasping the idea that someone who won your trust and loyalty and respect could be so unworthy of it."
Laleo - that is so true that my eyes filled with tears when I read it.
Even though I knew the things I'd heard from my friends were true - I stayed in denial because it broke my heart to believe them.
I know there are lots of other ex-Way folks who were and are in that same place. It's hard to come to grips with but I know when I finally did - it was liberating!
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
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Raf
Excy.... Hey, you don't have to apologize to me for what you call Vic. Ever.
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excathedra
raf, you called him a horndog on the other yeahbutt thread, and i thought it was too "mild" -- but thanks
laleo, the article was helpful, to me
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LG
Laleo,
?This is precisely why it is important to call things what they are so that people CAN understand the effects. When testimonies of abuse are quickly labeled as something which they are not, it has the effect of sensationalizing and minimizing the event rather than exposing it for what it is.?
Are we reading the same threads? The labels that are quickly applied, that minimize the abuse, are ?sexual harassment?, ?adultery?, ?illicit sex?, ?infidelity?, etc. Very seldom does anyone initially call it ?rape.? Rather, they say that it is like rape, which it is. In fact, much of it is indistinguishable from rape, unless the type of force used defines rape.
?I think there is far more power in the actual accounts of VPW's abuse, then in the clever (and sometimes overstated) labels that people sometimes attach to it.?
Clever labels? Like ?adultery?? That ?clever label? is what prompted Excathedra to start this thread. EVERY SINGLE TIME someone gives an account of abuse on these forums, people come along and label it as something much less than what it is.
?Furthermore, Long Gone, your long indictment of Oldiesman was premised on a simple misunderstanding he had of what was written in one of the posts.?
No it wasn?t. It may have been ?a simple misunderstanding? on his part, but not about ?one of the posts.? He has repeatedly treated specific statements as general ones, and qualified statements as absolutes. He has repeatedly minimized real examples of abuse, by proposing ?possible? examples that might not be abuse and saying that people were making sweeping, overstated claims that they never made. I cited some examples.
?He has never said or implied anywhere that anyone is ?playing the victim.? What would make you think that other than your own misunderstanding of what he is saying??
You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. My last post was neither addressed to nor about Oldiesman.
?Also, I'm curious. Did you read the full article that was linked at the beginning of this thread? I won't offer a critique lest I get yelled at for being too ignorant to know how to write one, but I'll say this: The article was not an indictment against aggressive sexual predators, but against male sexuality.?
If that?s what you got out of it, you completely misunderstood it.
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Dot Matrix
You know what else is sick? Some of the parties these girls, not yet at the drinking age of 21, went to.... Well, there was Howard and other old guys and they had booze. They got these kids drinking and then these old guys started kissing on them with an overall orgy flavor to the event.
Now, suppose one of your kids said, "Mom and Dad, I went to this lecture of Jesus. It was great! But then I was asked to a party and the old minister and other old male church people gave us drinks and were pulling us on top of them touching us! Mom and Dad, I was so drunk one of the old men placed his hand under my panties!"
We would all be outraged and go do some .... kicking.
Yet, here some of us sit and discuss if maybe VPW was a little horny or the 70's were a free sex period... I grew up in the 70's and I was not into free sex and the idiot Weirwille tried to get me.
The poor little friend of mine who went in the coach and was asked to give him a back rub had never even seen a penis before and that was in the 70's!
He was a criminal and he used GOD to do his crimes!
And if you still like PFAL -- Great! I consider it a great book written by BG Leonard.
Just call a spade a spade; although very interesting, we should not have to generate 5 pages of dialogue to convince someone VPW was messed up. If we look at the accounts it does not need commentary. I guess that is why sometimes I tire of all this. Olds think what you want. Your questions were answered. You have the right to ask, but if you dig your heels in and continue to defend VPW then that is your choice and your problem. I told you a lot of what I know. I have more accounts I know of, but I don?t think you can hear all of it at once. It?s okay to have your own opinion and I do not take that from you. But I do not want to rehash this 400 ways and have the same resolve. My goal is to be honest not to make you a VP hater. I just want you to know who you are defending. And if you choose to do so, that is okay. I just weary of these ardent loyals to a con-artist.
Forgive me, you have the right to handle things at your own pace... You can think what you want.
Olds, I do need to leave this thread for awhile.
Good luck in digesting all of this.
Everyone -- love to you!! Interesting points and stories. I hope some folks still in TWI leave as a result -- If that happens then the 5 pages of commentary were worth the slight headahche....
:D-->
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 12:36.]
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oldiesman
Dot,
Please feel free to keep posting your stories and recollections; rest assured, I (and I'm sure lots of other folks posting and not posting) are listening.
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lindyhopper
A wonderful set of posts here.
Dot- amazing post. Thank you.
laleo- I don't think I can say it any better than Long Gone.
Yes, testimonials are powerful, but they only support and explain the labels.
No, not all of Dots posts were rape. But does that really matter. If you rape one person, you are a rapist. If you do it several times, your a serial rapist. It is not "calling him something other than what he was". Just because every instance was not rape does not change that fact.
Labels have a purpose. Lets not ignore it.
laleo said:
It is words like "violated" that confuse the issue and lessen the impact of what "sick phucks" do. So, yes, lets please keep things in perspective.
Abigail said
I agree. I have had a lot of female friends that have been raped and/or abused in some way. Most of them agree as well. Even if it does reinforce thier sence of powerlessness, why would that be so bad. It was not their F***ing fault!
If any of you have a problem with the term rape in relation to VPW, I'm not going to be one to say sorry and make up another name for you.
DEAL WITH IT!
and get used to it because it was/is the truth. OK?
Lets stop negating the seriousness of what he did by whining about labels and how dissimilar some of the details were.
Lets do as Dot requested and "LOOK AT THE THINGS HE DID AND FORGET THE SIGNS THESE YOUNG GIRLS DID OR DID NOT DO." That will without a doubt reinforce the labels.
I'm sorry if I was the one that opened that can of worms. It was not what I meant or intended.
I'll repeat LONG GONE
and alfakat
Calling him a serial rapist doesn't say every account was rape, but that many were and the others didn't get as far as he would have liked.
Can I say that any other way?
Soul stealing is the perfect name for this thread.
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lindyhopper
more great words by Long Gone and Dot.
I seem to be too slow a typest to keep up.
Well said.
Well said.
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Dot Matrix
Okay olds I just may do that, I am still looking for that dam n letter he sent me.
Everyone else thanks for the support.
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 13:20.]
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Raf
Excy was absolutely right to call me on my use of the word "horndog" in the other thread. I've called him adulterer, I've called him abuser. And as I've said over and over again, I find his actions reprehensible and indefensible.
Using a word like "horndog" might be interpreted as minimizing my feelings about what Wierwille did. I hope not. I hope my record on this issue speaks louder than my casual use of a single word. Nonetheless, I apologize. It was thoughtless.
I haven't said "rapist" in describing Wierwille. It's instinctual at this point: call it a job hazard. I tend not to call people criminals until after they are convicted, or at least tried. Osama's the exception. Violating that rule can get me sued.
Incidentally, no one can sue for libel on behalf of a dead man. You can say whatever you want about a dead person, but a legacy cannot be libeled, legally. Isn't that fascinating?
I know, not the point of this thread. Or this post for that matter.
I simply and unreservedly apologize for anything I said that made light of Wierwille's behavior. I view his actions with the utmost gravity, and I have nothing but contempt for those who casually dismiss these stories while accepting Wierwille's snowstorms as divine revelation.
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excathedra
thank you raf, i needed that
:)-->
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Dot Matrix
Thanks Alfacat - yeah butt... thanks
Thanks Laleo. My posts are true if they are powerful that makes it worth any rebutal. Thanks
Raf- your support has been wonderful.
Ex- I know none of this was your fault with that dumba ss Weirwille!
Long Gone - Great posts
Olds - I am glad you are listening
Lindy - thanks!
Abagail -thanks to you too!
Orange Cat - Bless your little orange self!
QQ - great posts
Great insight -- everyone!
____________________________
Olds: Another story. A young girl, early corps, I believe she was 18 years old at the time... VPW got her drinking and had sex with her. She thought they had a beautiful special relationship.
They had a special place where they would meet and have sex. She convinced herself that he loved her even though he got her drunk to "get her" the first time. (I guess it was the only way she could handle it)
One day, she went to their meeting place thinking the MOG of the world LOVED her and there she saw him having sex with her best friend another 18 year old girl. There were glasses and empty booze bottles laying around.
She froze in the door and then realized he was not in love with her as her little mind had reconciled VPW's actions. He got her drunk and used her, then he played with her emotions to continue to have sex with an 18 year old little girl.
It can be argued that she wanted it as she went back. But who at 18 years old thinks their old man minister is going to get them drunk and sleep with them? So, she thought he loved her.
She was 18 years old. She was a stupid kid. That may not be conventional rape but it was certainly soul stealing.
This girl became my Branch Leader and told me this one night.... So many of us had stories.
I need a nap!
--> This stuff can wear ya out!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 16:00.]
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Charlie
those that have forced by strangers at least had their faith and church to console them, but not the women here
[This message was edited by Charlie on February 03, 2003 at 15:35.]
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Raf
Charlie,
Maybe my reading comprehension ain't what it used to be, but rather than "privately interpret" what you just said, I'd rather just ask you what you mean.
:)-->
In other words... huh?
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Dot Matrix
I think Charlie is saying some raped women could turn to their church. VPW's victims could not even go to their minister as HE was the offending party.
do I have it Charlie?
Dot Matrix
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Charlie
if the man of god is the predator and the church is in awe of the leader,where to they go for comfort and reassurance?
you say your profession keeps you from speaking about people unless convicted,then you say dead people can't sue you
Rafael,
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Charlie
yep,Dot,you got it!
i didn't think it was hard to understand
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Hopefull
Mr. Weirwille was a "corndog"?????
Oh.
Never mind...
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Stolen Souls...
The ABS is received, ... that wool rack of jackets will be just fine!!!! VPW ... a quoute from the long lost ""Life Lines" ...
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ex10
Charlie
You have made a great point. Those who were violated and betrayed by VPW had noone to turn to for comfort or support. It has been pretty well documented here and other places that those who dared protest or speak up about their experiences with "the man of God for our day and time," were demonized, slandered, and worse. The list is very long.
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firebee
Ship-wreaking of a soul is devestating........
when it is planned and intentional
VPW fit this description to a tee, and I didn't have to "see" it to know he did it, and to know he passed that legacy of destruction on to his many minions
He started with his own wife, and then affected hundreds of others with his vile doctrines..............men and women
VPW raped us all and laughed each time a deposit was made at the bank
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laleo
Long Gone, I don't know what to say. I think you just don't like me. Or maybe you're being stubborn. I don't know. But I do know I don't feel like being at odds with you. Dot said it better than I can: "If we look at the accounts it does not need commentary."
excathedra, I don't doubt that the article was helpful. I thought it had a lot of good information in it, and was written with compassion and understanding. However, I think some of the pronouncements in the article were too sweeping. But thanks for posting it.
oldiesman, When alfakat mentioned (on another thread, I think) that you were a former WayDale poster, I wracked my brain trying to connect you with another handle. Your posts didn't sound familiar to me. Then the day dawned, and I remembered your former posts. I don't know you but my impression of you then is the same impression I have of you now. I don't think you are a former Way leader. I don't believe you ever had anything to do with the corruption that was in The Way. I think you were the guy sitting next to me at Twig, who shared his Bible when I left mine at home. I think you're the guy who worked a steady job, and had enough left over to treat everyone to pizza after witnessing night. My guess is that you were the one who handed me your car keys when I needed to get to work. Heck, you probably were even the guy who gave me your car when it was time for you to buy a new one. I met dozens of guys like you. You came in the middle of the night to fix a flat tire, brought me a cup of coffee at break, let me bum cigarettes off of you, and slipped me twenty dollars when I ran out of money at the Rock. You may have cracked a few jokes, but I don't think you made an inappropriate advance toward any of your "sisters in Christ." I think you were the backbone of the "ministry." You made a believer out of me. My guess is that it's so hard for you to accept VPW's abuse because it would never occur to you to be abusive, and you have a hard time grasping the idea that someone who won your trust and loyalty and respect could be so unworthy of it. I don't think you're anything like him. The insults and accusations he gets here -- he earned every single one. He doesn't deserve you. You're better than he ever thought to be. Maybe I'm wrong about you, oldiesman. But I don't think so. You don't have it in you to hurt anyone. VPW did. Let him go.
Thank you, Dot.
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QamiQazi
I thought the article was very effective, but I agree it did not account for reasonable and real-life relationships between "unequals." That was not its purpose. The writer could not afford to dilute the message with anecdotes of happy endings because people don't understand how bad the problem really is. Sexual harrassment and abuse is rampant in work environments all over the world. Rampant doesn't mean everywhere. It means rampant. By its nature it often goes unmentioned, covered up, lived down, swept under the rug.
Is every unequal relationship the same? Of course not. But each presents the same temptations to the one with power, and the same risks to the one without. Education is more needful than legislation, but legislation is needful. That is why we have it. The article was written to make the most waves against the tide of prevailing opinion. It may lose more readers, but reach more hearts. That must be the writer's hope.
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QamiQazi
laleo, that was well-written. I knew some of those people too. There may be more than a few of them here. Their ideals haven't changed, nor their loyalties, nor their faith.
Same people. All that has changed is they do know now, what they did not know then.
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Hope R.
Laleo wrote:
Laleo - that is so true that my eyes filled with tears when I read it.
Even though I knew the things I'd heard from my friends were true - I stayed in denial because it broke my heart to believe them.
I know there are lots of other ex-Way folks who were and are in that same place. It's hard to come to grips with but I know when I finally did - it was liberating!
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
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