mj412, I am QQ. Orange Cat is OC. Who is QC? I will assume you mean me. Please give it a chance. My question is asked in earnest, due to the content of his own post.
oldiesman should understand the question. I can't predict how he will answer, but I expect it will be thoughtful and truthful, and hope he will not see it as an accusation. It could be taken that way, but is not so intended. I read his words, but I can't help wondering what is between the lines, because they don't make sense on their surface. As for confessions, I wouldn't know about the other unless that poster spilled it, now would I?
Oldiesman, whether you intended to or not, you communicated everything I said, and more. If you truly do not understand, then out of courtesy, avoid posting on threads like this. Read them, try to understand, think to yourself, "these emotional females don't make sense to me." (No offense, ladies.) Whatever. Just don't try to turn what could otherwise be productive discussions into debates over extraneous issues.
It's about courtesy and compassion. Surely you can understand that.
I still have a problem with that word "rape". If you're talking about VPW administering those date rape drugs (which admittedly is still hard for me to believe) then you'd have to call it rape. No question about it. Other than that, I don't see it as rape, but more like sexual harassment. Does it matter? Well, sexual harassment conveys one idea, and rape conveys another. Rape conveys that you simply couldn't say no, and couldn't get up and walk out. But we've seen testimonies of women declining VPW's advances, so I know it was possible. But certainly please don't misunderstand me, its bad enough for me and others who respected VPW to now think that he had a very sleazy sexual problem.
OK, here it is in plain English.
If it was not concentual sex, it was RAPE!
There is not really any room for grey areas here.
If someone refused him or got away from him, then they didn't have sex. Did they?
If someone was coersed, manipulated, or confused into haveing sex, it was rape.
IF these women couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't know how to say NO in their situation but DID NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH HIM, it was rape.
quote:Olds, ask God to show you and he will unfold things to you as you can receive them. I am not offended by your questions.
Dot Matrix,
Thank you for this response; it's been very helpful. You make lots of sense in your posts, and I'm reading and deeply considering everything you say. Thanks.
quote:Bottom line for me is, I really think he's a nice guy and if you guys would communicate with him, rather than at him, it might help everyone involved.
Even as we go along, you do not seem to have an understanding of the material re: sexual violators, what constitutes rape, coersion, etc.
Ginger,
As far as I can tell, there does seem to be a difference of opinion on what actually constitutes rape; and I don't know if there's any one set answer right now, maybe all viewpoints need to be considered. But I'm listening to all viewpoints and asking questions when I have doubts. Thanks.
quote:I think you done good Oldies. It is not easy to deal with this stuff. VPW hurt women, there is no doubt about that and he hurt them badly. He also hurt the men. He took your trust and he used it. I get where you are coming from and how hard this is for you. As I also understand how hard it is for Excathedra and Dot.
quote:What is going through your mind when you invent such a ratio? If it's just as bad, what is the point? Are you trying to say that after 200 the guy was on such a roll he didn't notice a few of them said "no?" Is that your point? You seem to view Dr. Wierwille as God's stud for our day and our time. Is that your point? The women of the kingdom belong to the king?
oldiesman, I remember a poster who was very defensive of Dr. Wierwille because he was himself accused of improper (or criminal) sexual activity, and while there was little dispute about the facts, only he felt he was justified by mitigating circumstances. In defending Dr. Wierwille, he was sort of defending his own choices and behavior. Are you that poster? Is that your point? Is this about you, and where you've put it?
QQ, I mentioned that analogy because I didn't want anyone to think I was minimizing how bad VPW's alleged actions were in drugging women. It doesn't have to be 200 women he drugged to have been very bad; it's bad enough that only 10 might have been. I will admit I'm still speculating about VPW drugging people; it's all so hard to grasp.
And regarding your other comment, no, I am not that poster.
quote:Oldiesman, whether you intended to or not, you communicated everything I said, and more. If you truly do not understand, then out of courtesy, avoid posting on threads like this. Read them, try to understand, think to yourself, "these emotional females don't make sense to me." (No offense, ladies.) Whatever. Just don't try to turn what could otherwise be productive discussions into debates over extraneous issues.
It's about courtesy and compassion. Surely you can understand that.
Long Gone, I will keep your thoughts in mind when debates like this come up in the future. Thanks!
it's difficult when someone accuses me of wanting attention, poor me victim, and it's also hard when people want to dissect what i say, it's like (to me, my very own feelings) dissecting "me"
Exy:
I hope you don't think anyone here is questioning your integrity or your reasons for posting. I certainly am not. Your story needs to be told, repeatedly.
I had a really long post here, but I'm deleting it because I've re-read oldies' posts and mine did not put it as well as his.
Guys, listen to him. Talk to him. I assure you, he can, does and will listen to you.
And Dot, please don't leave. Your input is far more important on this thread than mine.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on February 03, 2003 at 6:19.]
quote:If someone was coersed, manipulated, or confused into haveing sex, it was rape.
IF these women couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't know how to say NO in their situation but DID NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH HIM, it was rape.
Lindyhopper:
First, if it was not consensual, but the victim "didn't know how to say NO," how does the non-violent rapist, absent a drugged or unconscious victim, know he is committing a rape?
Secondly, what is your understanding of the definition of sexual harassment?
It is my opinion that most men can sense hesitation or fear in a woman and the gentleman will stop. However, it is within the realm of possibility they did not sense anything or know the woman was not a particularly willing participant. Even in a more forceful and coersive situation the "rapist" may not view their actions as rape.
But, (here ya go QQ ) this does not make it FEEL any less like rape to the woman. So, when discussing the subject, perhaps we need to narrow our point of discussion or at least try to understand the point of view the speaker is coming from.
Just some thoughts.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
I think there are definte signs that a women does not want to have sex other than saying "no".
Maybe I should scratch the second half of the statement. Although, I was thinking of it in light of the first half. I was trying to emphisize the intent of the person forcing themselves on the other and the confusion and inability of a person to always see what is going on when it is happening to them.
I guess I didn't do that very well. It was late, as it usually is for me here and I don't always say things the way I intend to. Sorry.
quote:I think there are definte signs that a women does not want to have sex other than saying "no".
Sorry to belabor the point, lindyhopper, but what are the "signs"?
These are the sorts of things that people like oldiesman get hung up on, and understandably so. What happened is bad enough. But when it is called something other than what it is, it confuses the issue, and heaps even more pain and anguish and misunderstanding on what is already a bad situation. Yes, Abigail, it sure does "feel" like rape, but calling it "rape" only reinforces the sense of powerlessness that women feel who have been violated. Things need to stay in perspective.
[This message was edited by laleo on February 03, 2003 at 8:46.]
Laleo, I can only speak from my own perspective and experience and not for others.
For me, calling it rape validated my feelings of shame, powerlessness, objectification, etc. This in turn allowed me to deal with those emotions and then overcome them. It did not reinforce the sense of powerlessness, it helped me overcome it. Once the sense of powerlessness was validated, I was able to figure out why I felt powerless and find ways to take back the power I had lost.
In other words, it helped me think through the events of my life, the role I played in those events, and how to take steps to prevent falling into that role again.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
You know, theft by confidence (a con) isn?t armed robbery but it is still theft and, in some ways, its impact on its victims can be greater. Not only is their wealth stolen, but also their confidence is improperly gained and then betrayed. It is similar in cases of sexual ?stealing?, except that what is stolen is of far greater value and the emotional impact, including a sense of betrayal, is far greater.
It may not be rape, in the sense of forcible rape, but it?s sure not mere ?sexual harassment.? Maybe a new term needs to be coined but for now, the best term that I know of that conveys the impact on the victims is ?rape.? ?Sexual victimization? is too broad and invites comments like ?playing the victim.? This is so much bigger than that. What I see is not women trying to ?play the victim,? but women realizing that they were victims, in order to analyze, understand, and overcome the victimization and what led to it.
Nearly any feeling person can empathize, to at least some degree, with a victim of forcible rape. Many, if not most people, fail to understand that nonconsensual sex that is not forcible rape can be even more devastating and can have more far reaching effects. From a victim?s perspective, I think that forcible rape may be easier to deal with than some other kinds of sexual victimization. In cases of forcible rape, there can be a sort of ?disconnect? between body and soul. A victim can have a sense of, ?He stole my body but not my soul.? In cases of incest, ministerial or professional abuse, and some others, there is no such disconnect. In those cases, access to the body is gained through the soul. At minimum, it is a level of betrayal that most men, and many women, have difficulty understanding. In many cases, it is even more than that. ?Soul stealing? is an apt description.
RAF: I read everything and you asked me back to the thread. So, I would like to address something.
OLDS: Folks are picking at the "signs" that a girl gives when she means no. Personally, I find that ambiguous. And truly in a court of law it would not be very concrete. But again, it is not the issue.
The issue is not did the girls give little signs?. It is WHAT BIG SCAREY THINGS did VPW do to rape/sexually use these little girls? IF you have ever watched a show like Court TV or Unsolved Mysteries you have seen how a pedophile or sexual predator works. A man may befriend himself to the single mom. (After, he stalks and compiles information that THIS family can be set up ? single mom, lonely child, financial trouble in keeping babysitters) So, he befriends Mommy. Then, he offers to baby-sit. He starts by playing games like checkers or hide and seek. Then, he introduces a NEW game called ?touch? and another called ?ride the pony? Then, he tears the child from the Mother by building lack of trust in the parent and rebuilding trust in HIM. This insures that the kid will not tell.
Okay, so enter TWI. Most of these kids were 16- 19 years old and taking PFAL. Some were doing drugs all were seeking something more than they got at home. They were seeking something noble ? they sought GOD. VPW worked several ways. We were pulled away from our family as they were unbelievers. For instance, on the WOW field you could not go home.
Example: The first time he saw this young girl (one of the posters) she was a newbie at twig. VPW was naked in the bathroom and he left the door open even after he saw she was startled by his presence. (A weird thing for a minister to do. A weird thing for a father and husband to do to a 17 year old kid). Then, he parties with them offering them ?grown up? things like beer and Drambuie. He offers to take the girl to Indiana Campus if she is able to go. He gets his alone time and makes her feel special. Then, once on the coach out comes the booze?.. LET US ALL LOOK AT THE THINGS HE DID AND FORGET THE SIGNS THESE YOUNG GIRLS DID OR DID NOT DO. Who cares? I do not give a dam n if she was unable to speak from fright or if she just sat passively. What was this old fat guy doing to get these girls into this situation?
Here is another friend of mine. She was 16/17 years old at the Advanced class. She was so excited! And as she walked by the coach Chris asked her to come in the coach and meet VPW. She enters, overjoyed to meet the MOG! But he was naked! He asked her to give him a back rub. Chris told her ?VPW asked me to bring in the first pretty girl I saw.? Then, he rolled for a front rub and she turned beat red and got out of there.
Another girl was tormented by sexual misconduct in her own family. She goes into the corps and had to write a paper called From Birth to the Corps. She outlines the abuse! VPW sends for her and says something like, ?Ah honey, I read your paper! That is awful. You deserve to be loved not used.?
She relaxes and sits down. He hugs her and then begins to feel her up!!!!!! I do not care if she was too shocked to say NO or to run or give a signal. She was set up by an old evil man. A serial sexual predator..
If you do not like the term rape - OLDS ? then let us find something you are comfortable with. How about a serial sexual deviant? How about a sick-sick man? What you concede he was ?evil?? How about a sinner? You can pick whatever name you feel comfortable with. BUT PLEASE do not say that these girls (my friends) were looking for sex with this scanky old fart. Please do not insist these kids should have been able to handle a situation that was way beyond their abilities to handle.
Did you have a sister you can recall being 17? Olds, do you have kids?
Are they or have they been 17 years old? If someone invited them to church and then took an interest in them you might not suspect anything. Now, suppose YOUR kid came home and said that the minister gave her 3 beers and then felt her up? Or he took a shower and exposed himself to her? Or took off his clothes and asked for a back rub? Would you say, ?Well, honey you should have said no? If you did not say no then that was your fault!? Or would you go kick his fooking ....?
You can figure all this out on your own but at least give these kids, these little girls the same kindness and awareness you would give your own daughter. Just do that and if you still want to like VPW then go ahead. Just do not keep suggesting these ?kids? ?your daughter? or ?your son? would want an old minister to touch them.
See, you are thinking of Ex and me and Watered Garden and others as adults because we are now! We were not then. I tell you, if I had a daughter and she was 17/18 years old and some old minister acted like VPW did, I think I would have visited him with a gun or a police officer.
BTW, I am looking for a letter VPW wrote me. I complained about my corps assignment. He wrote to me something like "I wish your boobs secreted as much as your eyes do." How appropriate is that? I kept it incase I needed to proove he was an idiot. I will look for it and post the thing when I find it.
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 11:31.]
quote:Nearly any feeling person can empathize, to at least some degree, with a victim of forcible rape. Many, if not most people, fail to understand that nonconsensual sex that is not forcible rape can be even more devastating and can have more far reaching effects.
Long Gone,
This is precisely why it is important to call things what they are so that people CAN understand the effects. When testimonies of abuse are quickly labeled as something which they are not, it has the effect of sensationalizing and minimizing the event rather than exposing it for what it is. I think there is far more power in the actual accounts of VPW's abuse, then in the clever (and sometimes overstated) labels that people sometimes attach to it.
Furthermore, Long Gone, your long indictment of Oldiesman was premised on a simple misunderstanding he had of what was written in one of the posts. He has never said or implied anywhere that anyone is "playing the victim." What would make you think that other than your own misunderstanding of what he is saying?
Also, I'm curious. Did you read the full article that was linked at the beginning of this thread? I won't offer a critique lest I get yelled at for being too ignorant to know how to write one, but I'll say this: The article was not an indictment against aggressive sexual predators, but against male sexuality. I respect the process that excathedra is going through to make sense of her own suffering, but I also understand why oldiesman might question some of the premises that are quoted to support the conclusion that VPW was a sexual predator. VPW's predation was slimy and inexcusable. But the evidence to support it is in the testimonials, not in the labels. Just read Dot's posts. They are powerful.
I've been thinking of this issue a lot lately. Dot, that post was awesome. So was Long Gone's. I hope the Wierwille worshipping skeptics (I don't include oldiesman in that bunch) can see the importance and relevance of these stories. They are heartbreaking.
Between this and the yeah, but thread, I'm encouraged by the progress of this discussion. So as someone who should have stayed out of it ( ;)--> ), thank you.
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hey, I asked PRETTY please--when was the last time cops asked you please about anything?? but hey, 2 concise posts in a row--you're gettin there....
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QamiQazi
mj412, I am QQ. Orange Cat is OC. Who is QC? I will assume you mean me. Please give it a chance. My question is asked in earnest, due to the content of his own post.
oldiesman should understand the question. I can't predict how he will answer, but I expect it will be thoughtful and truthful, and hope he will not see it as an accusation. It could be taken that way, but is not so intended. I read his words, but I can't help wondering what is between the lines, because they don't make sense on their surface. As for confessions, I wouldn't know about the other unless that poster spilled it, now would I?
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LG
Oldiesman, whether you intended to or not, you communicated everything I said, and more. If you truly do not understand, then out of courtesy, avoid posting on threads like this. Read them, try to understand, think to yourself, "these emotional females don't make sense to me." (No offense, ladies.) Whatever. Just don't try to turn what could otherwise be productive discussions into debates over extraneous issues.
It's about courtesy and compassion. Surely you can understand that.
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lindyhopper
Oldies- yet another one for you.
You said
OK, here it is in plain English.
If it was not concentual sex, it was RAPE!
There is not really any room for grey areas here.
If someone refused him or got away from him, then they didn't have sex. Did they?
If someone was coersed, manipulated, or confused into haveing sex, it was rape.
IF these women couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't know how to say NO in their situation but DID NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH HIM, it was rape.
VPW was not just a rapist, but a serial rapist.
I know that sounds terrible.
It WAS and IS!
Your just going to have to get used to it.
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oldiesman
Dot Matrix,
Thank you for this response; it's been very helpful. You make lots of sense in your posts, and I'm reading and deeply considering everything you say. Thanks.
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oldiesman
Thank you again, Rafael.
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oldiesman
Ginger,
As far as I can tell, there does seem to be a difference of opinion on what actually constitutes rape; and I don't know if there's any one set answer right now, maybe all viewpoints need to be considered. But I'm listening to all viewpoints and asking questions when I have doubts. Thanks.
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oldiesman
Abigail, thanks for mentioning.
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oldiesman
QQ, I mentioned that analogy because I didn't want anyone to think I was minimizing how bad VPW's alleged actions were in drugging women. It doesn't have to be 200 women he drugged to have been very bad; it's bad enough that only 10 might have been. I will admit I'm still speculating about VPW drugging people; it's all so hard to grasp.
And regarding your other comment, no, I am not that poster.
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oldiesman
Long Gone, I will keep your thoughts in mind when debates like this come up in the future. Thanks!
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Raf
Exy:
I hope you don't think anyone here is questioning your integrity or your reasons for posting. I certainly am not. Your story needs to be told, repeatedly.
I had a really long post here, but I'm deleting it because I've re-read oldies' posts and mine did not put it as well as his.
Guys, listen to him. Talk to him. I assure you, he can, does and will listen to you.
And Dot, please don't leave. Your input is far more important on this thread than mine.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on February 03, 2003 at 6:19.]
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laleo
mj412 and Dot: I wish I had your courage. I hope you keep telling it like it is.
Rafael: You have my respect.
Oldiesman: Hang in there.
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laleo
Lindyhopper:
First, if it was not consensual, but the victim "didn't know how to say NO," how does the non-violent rapist, absent a drugged or unconscious victim, know he is committing a rape?
Secondly, what is your understanding of the definition of sexual harassment?
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Abigail
How did they know it was rape?
It is my opinion that most men can sense hesitation or fear in a woman and the gentleman will stop. However, it is within the realm of possibility they did not sense anything or know the woman was not a particularly willing participant. Even in a more forceful and coersive situation the "rapist" may not view their actions as rape.
But, (here ya go QQ) this does not make it FEEL any less like rape to the woman. So, when discussing the subject, perhaps we need to narrow our point of discussion or at least try to understand the point of view the speaker is coming from.
Just some thoughts.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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lindyhopper
laleo- good point. I need to be more clear here.
I think there are definte signs that a women does not want to have sex other than saying "no".
Maybe I should scratch the second half of the statement. Although, I was thinking of it in light of the first half. I was trying to emphisize the intent of the person forcing themselves on the other and the confusion and inability of a person to always see what is going on when it is happening to them.
I guess I didn't do that very well. It was late, as it usually is for me here and I don't always say things the way I intend to. Sorry.
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lindyhopper
We posted at the same time Abigail, I agree.
laleo-
To me it is usually a remark, advance, or touch that is in an inappropriate way, inappropriate place, all around inappropriate.
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laleo
Sorry to belabor the point, lindyhopper, but what are the "signs"?
These are the sorts of things that people like oldiesman get hung up on, and understandably so. What happened is bad enough. But when it is called something other than what it is, it confuses the issue, and heaps even more pain and anguish and misunderstanding on what is already a bad situation. Yes, Abigail, it sure does "feel" like rape, but calling it "rape" only reinforces the sense of powerlessness that women feel who have been violated. Things need to stay in perspective.
[This message was edited by laleo on February 03, 2003 at 8:46.]
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Abigail
Laleo, I can only speak from my own perspective and experience and not for others.
For me, calling it rape validated my feelings of shame, powerlessness, objectification, etc. This in turn allowed me to deal with those emotions and then overcome them. It did not reinforce the sense of powerlessness, it helped me overcome it. Once the sense of powerlessness was validated, I was able to figure out why I felt powerless and find ways to take back the power I had lost.
In other words, it helped me think through the events of my life, the role I played in those events, and how to take steps to prevent falling into that role again.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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LG
You know, theft by confidence (a con) isn?t armed robbery but it is still theft and, in some ways, its impact on its victims can be greater. Not only is their wealth stolen, but also their confidence is improperly gained and then betrayed. It is similar in cases of sexual ?stealing?, except that what is stolen is of far greater value and the emotional impact, including a sense of betrayal, is far greater.
It may not be rape, in the sense of forcible rape, but it?s sure not mere ?sexual harassment.? Maybe a new term needs to be coined but for now, the best term that I know of that conveys the impact on the victims is ?rape.? ?Sexual victimization? is too broad and invites comments like ?playing the victim.? This is so much bigger than that. What I see is not women trying to ?play the victim,? but women realizing that they were victims, in order to analyze, understand, and overcome the victimization and what led to it.
Nearly any feeling person can empathize, to at least some degree, with a victim of forcible rape. Many, if not most people, fail to understand that nonconsensual sex that is not forcible rape can be even more devastating and can have more far reaching effects. From a victim?s perspective, I think that forcible rape may be easier to deal with than some other kinds of sexual victimization. In cases of forcible rape, there can be a sort of ?disconnect? between body and soul. A victim can have a sense of, ?He stole my body but not my soul.? In cases of incest, ministerial or professional abuse, and some others, there is no such disconnect. In those cases, access to the body is gained through the soul. At minimum, it is a level of betrayal that most men, and many women, have difficulty understanding. In many cases, it is even more than that. ?Soul stealing? is an apt description.
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Dot Matrix
RAF: I read everything and you asked me back to the thread. So, I would like to address something.
OLDS: Folks are picking at the "signs" that a girl gives when she means no. Personally, I find that ambiguous. And truly in a court of law it would not be very concrete. But again, it is not the issue.
The issue is not did the girls give little signs?. It is WHAT BIG SCAREY THINGS did VPW do to rape/sexually use these little girls? IF you have ever watched a show like Court TV or Unsolved Mysteries you have seen how a pedophile or sexual predator works. A man may befriend himself to the single mom. (After, he stalks and compiles information that THIS family can be set up ? single mom, lonely child, financial trouble in keeping babysitters) So, he befriends Mommy. Then, he offers to baby-sit. He starts by playing games like checkers or hide and seek. Then, he introduces a NEW game called ?touch? and another called ?ride the pony? Then, he tears the child from the Mother by building lack of trust in the parent and rebuilding trust in HIM. This insures that the kid will not tell.
Okay, so enter TWI. Most of these kids were 16- 19 years old and taking PFAL. Some were doing drugs all were seeking something more than they got at home. They were seeking something noble ? they sought GOD. VPW worked several ways. We were pulled away from our family as they were unbelievers. For instance, on the WOW field you could not go home.
Example: The first time he saw this young girl (one of the posters) she was a newbie at twig. VPW was naked in the bathroom and he left the door open even after he saw she was startled by his presence. (A weird thing for a minister to do. A weird thing for a father and husband to do to a 17 year old kid). Then, he parties with them offering them ?grown up? things like beer and Drambuie. He offers to take the girl to Indiana Campus if she is able to go. He gets his alone time and makes her feel special. Then, once on the coach out comes the booze?.. LET US ALL LOOK AT THE THINGS HE DID AND FORGET THE SIGNS THESE YOUNG GIRLS DID OR DID NOT DO. Who cares? I do not give a dam n if she was unable to speak from fright or if she just sat passively. What was this old fat guy doing to get these girls into this situation?
Here is another friend of mine. She was 16/17 years old at the Advanced class. She was so excited! And as she walked by the coach Chris asked her to come in the coach and meet VPW. She enters, overjoyed to meet the MOG! But he was naked! He asked her to give him a back rub. Chris told her ?VPW asked me to bring in the first pretty girl I saw.? Then, he rolled for a front rub and she turned beat red and got out of there.
Another girl was tormented by sexual misconduct in her own family. She goes into the corps and had to write a paper called From Birth to the Corps. She outlines the abuse! VPW sends for her and says something like, ?Ah honey, I read your paper! That is awful. You deserve to be loved not used.?
She relaxes and sits down. He hugs her and then begins to feel her up!!!!!! I do not care if she was too shocked to say NO or to run or give a signal. She was set up by an old evil man. A serial sexual predator..
If you do not like the term rape - OLDS ? then let us find something you are comfortable with. How about a serial sexual deviant? How about a sick-sick man? What you concede he was ?evil?? How about a sinner? You can pick whatever name you feel comfortable with. BUT PLEASE do not say that these girls (my friends) were looking for sex with this scanky old fart. Please do not insist these kids should have been able to handle a situation that was way beyond their abilities to handle.
Did you have a sister you can recall being 17? Olds, do you have kids?
Are they or have they been 17 years old? If someone invited them to church and then took an interest in them you might not suspect anything. Now, suppose YOUR kid came home and said that the minister gave her 3 beers and then felt her up? Or he took a shower and exposed himself to her? Or took off his clothes and asked for a back rub? Would you say, ?Well, honey you should have said no? If you did not say no then that was your fault!? Or would you go kick his fooking ....?
You can figure all this out on your own but at least give these kids, these little girls the same kindness and awareness you would give your own daughter. Just do that and if you still want to like VPW then go ahead. Just do not keep suggesting these ?kids? ?your daughter? or ?your son? would want an old minister to touch them.
See, you are thinking of Ex and me and Watered Garden and others as adults because we are now! We were not then. I tell you, if I had a daughter and she was 17/18 years old and some old minister acted like VPW did, I think I would have visited him with a gun or a police officer.
BTW, I am looking for a letter VPW wrote me. I complained about my corps assignment. He wrote to me something like "I wish your boobs secreted as much as your eyes do." How appropriate is that? I kept it incase I needed to proove he was an idiot. I will look for it and post the thing when I find it.
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 03, 2003 at 11:31.]
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alfakat
yeah, but....
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.
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just thought I'd be the first
I hope the attempt at satire IS recognized
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laleo
Long Gone,
This is precisely why it is important to call things what they are so that people CAN understand the effects. When testimonies of abuse are quickly labeled as something which they are not, it has the effect of sensationalizing and minimizing the event rather than exposing it for what it is. I think there is far more power in the actual accounts of VPW's abuse, then in the clever (and sometimes overstated) labels that people sometimes attach to it.
Furthermore, Long Gone, your long indictment of Oldiesman was premised on a simple misunderstanding he had of what was written in one of the posts. He has never said or implied anywhere that anyone is "playing the victim." What would make you think that other than your own misunderstanding of what he is saying?
Also, I'm curious. Did you read the full article that was linked at the beginning of this thread? I won't offer a critique lest I get yelled at for being too ignorant to know how to write one, but I'll say this: The article was not an indictment against aggressive sexual predators, but against male sexuality. I respect the process that excathedra is going through to make sense of her own suffering, but I also understand why oldiesman might question some of the premises that are quoted to support the conclusion that VPW was a sexual predator. VPW's predation was slimy and inexcusable. But the evidence to support it is in the testimonials, not in the labels. Just read Dot's posts. They are powerful.
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Raf
I've been thinking of this issue a lot lately. Dot, that post was awesome. So was Long Gone's. I hope the Wierwille worshipping skeptics (I don't include oldiesman in that bunch) can see the importance and relevance of these stories. They are heartbreaking.
Between this and the yeah, but thread, I'm encouraged by the progress of this discussion. So as someone who should have stayed out of it (
;)--> ), thank you.
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alfakat
seriously...incredible post, Dot
now, let's multiply that account, complete with Dot's 3 friends by a factor of, say, a nice, round 100--now wadda ya say?????
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