I'll admit I hadn't thought about the "enablers" angle. But what you said about Rxxxxa Bxxxn made me think about another woman who I learned was a "pimp" for VP in the 70's. She is the one who gave the bible verse reasons out to her recruits in order to convince them they were "doing the word" by "taking care of the man of God" (barf).
In Patricia Liberty's article she writes:
quote: In our work with survivors of clergy abuse we often ask the question, "Would this have happened if he/she was your neighbor and not your pastor." Overwhelmingly the answer is "no". The witness of survivors underscores the truth that the clergy role carries with it a power and authority that make meaningful consent impossible.
I think the enablers got tricked into thinking they had power and authority when they picked out the women to be used by the MOGs, and a sense of superiority because they'd done it first (ugh). So in that sense - they were victims and victimizers.
But I'm not sure if we can call these women willing participants. I think they may have been victimized as much as those they recruited - I don't know. What do you think?
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
OCD you are in rare form tonight my friend. Hope your day wasn't too bad. You crack me up.
Have fun "strumin' away like a rockstar on the ge-tar".
thanks, lindyhopper, i think "watered Garden" can set me off to easily.....i remember her "die if you say Jesus" junk, struck me the same way
I believe the real point here is that:
this was not simply sin/adultery from an "ordinary" believer
it was calculated abuse! planned out and arranged, and i am suspect of "date rape drugs" being used!
Rafael, it does not matter one Goddamn bit if there were 1000 that willingly had sex with the wrinkled fart, it does not change the intentional stalking of young women and following abuse
the fruit is evident!!!
the man's ministry is crap, it's as good as dead, except in the fond/limited memories !
always loved some of the people....still do!
some were just freaks.....and obviously others, devious perverts!
----------------------------------------
I think everyone should treat one another in a Christian manner.
I will NOT however, be responsible for the consequences. - George Carlin
quote:But I'm not sure if we can call these women willing participants. I think they may have been victimized as much as those they recruited - I don't know. What do you think?
I think that if one wanted to, one can make a case that everyone born on this earth has been a victim.
Excathedra, Dot, and Watered Garden, I am so sorry for all you went thru. Thanks for sharing your lives with us, even at the expense of posters who dont have a clue and dont want to have a clue. I am so glad that all of you still love God and his son Jesus Christ.
(Ex, you have a private topic) You are my sisters-in-Christ.
quote:The other thing is there were a few...A VERY FEW who stayed in this TWI cycle of abuse were enablers and stayed by choice...i.e. named in the Lawsuit- Ramona Bidon
Washingtonweather,
Thank you for mentioning her as one who does not rise to victim status. I always thought that if anyone was just as responsible for Tom's death as LCM, it was Tom's lovely devoted wife.
My dear lovely child of a loving God, I am so sorry the father of lies touched you in the form of VPW. I know how sick at heart and confused you were. I tried to dismiss all the sh it as well but it kept coming back in my face as fact.
After ALL these years, I came to GS still getting headaches over having to reconcile how VPW could teach a class that DELIVERED me and yet be so messed up himself. I mean, if he taught it he had to believe it and if he believed why was he still doing all this horrible sh it?
When I was in CA. I got to be friends with J_M D__p. He was such a live wire that we hit it off! He was not in real great shape financially or emotionally but Gawd, what an easy guy to like! I fixed him up with J_dy who was his girlfriend for a few years!
Anyway, he told me VPW was diabolically sexually active for years. And J_m had a weird ministry in California. VPW went and met J_m on the pretense to research more word. HE REALLY WENT because J-m's ministry was a "free love" group and VPW was looking for a Biblical ways to document the sexual behavior he was already heavily involved in!
It was here (GS) I learned that VPW wanted to build a ministry. He did not have what it took as far as material to teach but he was dramatic and good at marketing. He studied under BG Leonard and others. BG had a class that was very similar to PFAL but BG was not great at marketing. VPW took the class and remarkably a short time later, in an effort to sell the researched material as his own, emerged to let everyone know he saw the SNOW. HE had Large D's and L's floating over the word receive (delcomai and lombano I forget how to spell the words)
Then, he marketed the stuff as if he researched it. WOW! And we all wonder why we stuck around? The Word was what we needed and I think any of us who knew VPW just could not figure out how the class and his sexual conduct came out of the same man! I know I could not figure it out, that lead me to hang around longer than I should have, because I kept thinking it (TWI) was fixable. And I kept thinking someday the word he taught HAD to deliver him!!! HE TAUGHT IT!
BUt he never had to BELIEVE it. The class drew all of us because the word was so powerful. VPW's enterprise grew as he wanted a financial and powerful base. I do not know if he ever counted on us getting delivered. I got delivered from the word in the class despite the man who taught it. This knowledge helped to deliver me from the final nagging piece of the puzzle:
Why was I delivered via a class that was taught by a man who was so personally tormented?
In the movie (not Biblical) "The Emperors Club"
They had a profound theme that ran through the movie "The end depends upon the begining"
Think about it in light of the Way -- (after seperated God from TWI) I think that little moral is profound....
I hope this helps you.
EX: VPW sent for my company many a time and I was always able to decline his real motives. He always offered me something to drink and I do not drink, so I never drank with him. I think that is what saved me, as others that came forward said there was something in the drinks.
It is NOT YOUR FAULT.
Hope I will e-mail you!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on January 30, 2003 at 15:50.]
Good Point! I know meetings where he let us go early. They "sold" it as revelation but he was shacking up.
All his croonies did the same thing.
When in PA a limb leader was ALWAYS having meetings. We would have to drive forever, get off work, spend money, etc. So, again the guy called a meeting and we all went! Then, he cancelled it and said some spiritual reason. Later I found he had been banging my corps sister.
It is a hard pill to swallow betrayal is. I still find it difficult to admit I was that hoodwinked. I always thought I was sharper than that. I must admit, I was out there bringing people in with great freqency. Now, not that I am sorry I brought people to God, but I am VERY sorry I brought them to TWI.
I was hoodwinked. It is a huge thing to realize. For me it was painful, stunning and sad but amist all of those feelings there was also deliverance in finally admiting it.
Looking back....and then at the present, I can't imagine any normal minister who would want to counsel someone wearing pajama bottoms in a motel room at close to midnight....I was so amazingly naive and dumb and ignorant.
What a close call!
Exxie, I will write you sometime on your e-mail, honey, but right now, I'm just too tired (not a night person at all, here). I must be getting, well not old, exactly, but uh - mature?
BTW, for those girls who did not drink but were over powered by his title or supposed ability to "heal you" -- It is NOT your fault either.
He used his position as a "MOG" to get, abuse and use "chicks" (that is how he saw us)
Like Ex said it was not about passion or closeness(something like that she said), it was about using someone like a non-entity for his sexual pleasure. In Marsha's story she sees VP after the day she was "with him" and he did not even recognize her.
This goes so beyond adultery. I know people whom have cheated on a spouse -- they were lonely, caught up in the moment -- lots of excuses (AND I am anti - adultery) but this guy used "you can bless a MOG." or "Let me bless you."
Once he asked me how I was keeping myself "tender" (He was referring to sexually satisfied in the corps.) He asked if I masterbated. I said "no" He said how are you staying "sweet." I told him I did not need sex to keep me sweet! Then, I stared at him.
I thought ya know, better men then you have tried with me and I said no, what makes this fat .... old man think I am going to drop my pants and do the deed with him?
Then, I realized he was so "gone" he really thought all women should allow him to touch them - because he thought he was that great!
Narcissistic at the least - the criminal mind at most (or worse).
WG -You dodged a bullet! In a motel room near midnight with a man only in PJ bottoms -- and now you know he was a sexual preditor...
You dodged a bullet!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on January 31, 2003 at 18:58.]
I do not think any of Mr. Weirwille's sexual activities with followers were remotely consensual. I say that because I personally knew one example of a woman who I now truly believe was possibly sexually abused by the Old Grifter or other higher ups in TWI. Man, was she screwed up.....
She was in the Corps and our first Twig leader. She worked partime as a bartender while she was getting enough people together for the first "class." That's where my roomate and I met her. She said she was an ordained minister which I thought was something else, working as a bartender. I thought "Great" a minister that luvs booze the way I did. Which at the time was my primary interest in life!
Anyway, after the first night we met her, I could tell my roomate and her were hitting it off fast so I left them in the bar. He regaled me the next morning with his tale of doing the nasty on the pool table after closing. I thought Hmmmm "A boozer AND a slut.....kinda strange combo for a minister, but oh well, at least this is a Bible Study where I can drink all the beer I want."
Well my roomate's flings usually lasted about a week, and so did this one, although they both did move into the local huge TWI house with several other waybots. About that time I had my motorcycle accident and was pretty tore up physically, and went back to mom's house to recooperate.
I don't remember exactly why the TWI household disinigrated, other than a bunch of single people living together like that tends to be by nature a pretty unstable living arrangment. Anyhew, when it all split up, I moved back to my own house and my roomate moved back in with his flocks of girlfriends.
She used to bundle me up in her car, crutches and all and take me for long drives through the country-side. She seemed really upset about her situation with TWI, apparently it wasn't going so well (The Limb Leader told me later she was ousted for some reason which I do not remember). I didn't understand the politics of it at all, but once in awhile we would stop and be looking at some of the beautiful vistas and she would just sob. She wouldn't tell me what was going on, and I always assumed it musta been really complex on many different levels.
You know, female stuff.
See, I am totally dense about such things. I am always the last person who figures out what is REALLY going on. Particularly when it comes to women, plus I think she was really worried about the effect anything she might divulge would have on my recooperation process. She would drive me in for my frequent blood transfusions, so she well knew how physically fragile I was.
She did express terrible remorse and terribly regretted the way she had carried on sexually with my roomate and some of the other Twig guys. I don't think she was at all naturally that kind of a woman. In fact, when she was around me she seemed to revert to being really shy, inexperienced and vulnerable and with my painful shyness around women and me focusing on my terrible physical injuries and loss of energy this was a combination that was doomed to stay a purely platonic freindship.
She kept that famous picture of Weirwille on his motorcycle next to her bed and I caught her crying several times when I hobbled through there to use the bathroom. When she looked at that picture, the corners of her mouth would get really tight. Her eyes were bright with hatred. She tried to hide it, but she didn't do a very good job of it.
She appeared very angry whenever someone would even mention the photo. There was some sort of trauma there I never got to the bottom of.
But then again, I am pretty dumb about such things.
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WW
I'll admit I hadn't thought about the "enablers" angle. But what you said about Rxxxxa Bxxxn made me think about another woman who I learned was a "pimp" for VP in the 70's. She is the one who gave the bible verse reasons out to her recruits in order to convince them they were "doing the word" by "taking care of the man of God" (barf).
In Patricia Liberty's article she writes:
I think the enablers got tricked into thinking they had power and authority when they picked out the women to be used by the MOGs, and a sense of superiority because they'd done it first (ugh). So in that sense - they were victims and victimizers.
But I'm not sure if we can call these women willing participants. I think they may have been victimized as much as those they recruited - I don't know. What do you think?
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
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lindyhopper
Dot thank you for sharing. All this stuff ....es me off so much.
And all this happening right under my nose while growing up in the ministry.
OCD you are in rare form tonight my friend. Hope your day wasn't too bad. You crack me up.
Have fun "strumin' away like a rockstar on the ge-tar".
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OCD #1
thanks, lindyhopper, i think "watered Garden" can set me off to easily.....i remember her "die if you say Jesus" junk, struck me the same way
I believe the real point here is that:
this was not simply sin/adultery from an "ordinary" believer
it was calculated abuse! planned out and arranged, and i am suspect of "date rape drugs" being used!
Rafael, it does not matter one Goddamn bit if there were 1000 that willingly had sex with the wrinkled fart, it does not change the intentional stalking of young women and following abuse
the fruit is evident!!!
the man's ministry is crap, it's as good as dead, except in the fond/limited memories !
always loved some of the people....still do!
some were just freaks.....and obviously others, devious perverts!
----------------------------------------
I think everyone should treat one another in a Christian manner.
I will NOT however, be responsible for the consequences. - George Carlin
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Watered Garden
I deleted this message because people on other websites are copying quotes from GSC and using them in their anti-cult sites.
WG
[This message was edited by Watered Garden on January 10, 2004 at 14:04.]
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Watered Garden
OCD #1, could you please reference me on my "die if you say Jesus" junk? I don't remember that.
Thank you.
WG
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washingtonweather
I love you WG!
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oldiesman
I think that if one wanted to, one can make a case that everyone born on this earth has been a victim.
It all depends upon your point of view...
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act2
Excathedra, Dot, and Watered Garden, I am so sorry for all you went thru. Thanks for sharing your lives with us, even at the expense of posters who dont have a clue and dont want to have a clue. I am so glad that all of you still love God and his son Jesus Christ.
(Ex, you have a private topic) You are my sisters-in-Christ.
The decisions we make today form our future.
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A la prochaine
QQ,
Wheww, what a post buddy.
There's a million things I want to say about that post. Don't even know where to start.
WateredGarden, Welcome!
'til the next time...
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oldiesman
Washingtonweather,
Thank you for mentioning her as one who does not rise to victim status. I always thought that if anyone was just as responsible for Tom's death as LCM, it was Tom's lovely devoted wife.
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Watered Garden
For those of you who like Shakespeare, here's one more appropriate for the subject matter:
"An evil soul producing holy witness, is like a goodly apple rotten at the heart."
Shakespeare
WG
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Abigail
The river of denial. Watered Garden, we've all been there in some form or fashion. It's only human afterall.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Dot Matrix
WG-
My dear lovely child of a loving God, I am so sorry the father of lies touched you in the form of VPW. I know how sick at heart and confused you were. I tried to dismiss all the sh it as well but it kept coming back in my face as fact.
After ALL these years, I came to GS still getting headaches over having to reconcile how VPW could teach a class that DELIVERED me and yet be so messed up himself. I mean, if he taught it he had to believe it and if he believed why was he still doing all this horrible sh it?
When I was in CA. I got to be friends with J_M D__p. He was such a live wire that we hit it off! He was not in real great shape financially or emotionally but Gawd, what an easy guy to like! I fixed him up with J_dy who was his girlfriend for a few years!
Anyway, he told me VPW was diabolically sexually active for years. And J_m had a weird ministry in California. VPW went and met J_m on the pretense to research more word. HE REALLY WENT because J-m's ministry was a "free love" group and VPW was looking for a Biblical ways to document the sexual behavior he was already heavily involved in!
It was here (GS) I learned that VPW wanted to build a ministry. He did not have what it took as far as material to teach but he was dramatic and good at marketing. He studied under BG Leonard and others. BG had a class that was very similar to PFAL but BG was not great at marketing. VPW took the class and remarkably a short time later, in an effort to sell the researched material as his own, emerged to let everyone know he saw the SNOW. HE had Large D's and L's floating over the word receive (delcomai and lombano I forget how to spell the words)
Then, he marketed the stuff as if he researched it. WOW! And we all wonder why we stuck around? The Word was what we needed and I think any of us who knew VPW just could not figure out how the class and his sexual conduct came out of the same man! I know I could not figure it out, that lead me to hang around longer than I should have, because I kept thinking it (TWI) was fixable. And I kept thinking someday the word he taught HAD to deliver him!!! HE TAUGHT IT!
BUt he never had to BELIEVE it. The class drew all of us because the word was so powerful. VPW's enterprise grew as he wanted a financial and powerful base. I do not know if he ever counted on us getting delivered. I got delivered from the word in the class despite the man who taught it. This knowledge helped to deliver me from the final nagging piece of the puzzle:
Why was I delivered via a class that was taught by a man who was so personally tormented?
In the movie (not Biblical) "The Emperors Club"
They had a profound theme that ran through the movie "The end depends upon the begining"
Think about it in light of the Way -- (after seperated God from TWI) I think that little moral is profound....
I hope this helps you.
EX: VPW sent for my company many a time and I was always able to decline his real motives. He always offered me something to drink and I do not drink, so I never drank with him. I think that is what saved me, as others that came forward said there was something in the drinks.
It is NOT YOUR FAULT.
Hope I will e-mail you!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on January 30, 2003 at 15:50.]
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Orange Cat
Wow Watered Garden - way to go. Kudos
Orange Cat color>
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def59
Remember that part of pffle when wierwille told about spend 14 hours a day with some woman who taught him stuff in the bible.
Given his alleged mysogony, do you find it strange that he would accept instruction from a woman on any topic, let alone the bible?
One has to wonder what he and her were doing for 14 hours by themselves in a room locked up?
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Dot Matrix
Hope:
you have a private topic
Dot Matrix
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Dot Matrix
Def59
Good Point! I know meetings where he let us go early. They "sold" it as revelation but he was shacking up.
All his croonies did the same thing.
When in PA a limb leader was ALWAYS having meetings. We would have to drive forever, get off work, spend money, etc. So, again the guy called a meeting and we all went! Then, he cancelled it and said some spiritual reason. Later I found he had been banging my corps sister.
It is a hard pill to swallow betrayal is. I still find it difficult to admit I was that hoodwinked. I always thought I was sharper than that. I must admit, I was out there bringing people in with great freqency. Now, not that I am sorry I brought people to God, but I am VERY sorry I brought them to TWI.
I was hoodwinked. It is a huge thing to realize. For me it was painful, stunning and sad but amist all of those feelings there was also deliverance in finally admiting it.
Dot Matrix
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QamiQazi
Watered Garden,
Your answer was worth the wait. Thank you for proving to be such a remarkable person. I very much underestimated you.
QQ
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excathedra
thanks all including wg for your time and thought on this subject
shaz i keep meaning to hug you
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excathedra
oldies
how profoundLink to comment
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Watered Garden
Looking back....and then at the present, I can't imagine any normal minister who would want to counsel someone wearing pajama bottoms in a motel room at close to midnight....I was so amazingly naive and dumb and ignorant.
What a close call!
Exxie, I will write you sometime on your e-mail, honey, but right now, I'm just too tired (not a night person at all, here). I must be getting, well not old, exactly, but uh - mature?
Love you guys, one and all.
WG
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Dot Matrix
BTW, for those girls who did not drink but were over powered by his title or supposed ability to "heal you" -- It is NOT your fault either.
He used his position as a "MOG" to get, abuse and use "chicks" (that is how he saw us)
Like Ex said it was not about passion or closeness(something like that she said), it was about using someone like a non-entity for his sexual pleasure. In Marsha's story she sees VP after the day she was "with him" and he did not even recognize her.
This goes so beyond adultery. I know people whom have cheated on a spouse -- they were lonely, caught up in the moment -- lots of excuses (AND I am anti - adultery) but this guy used "you can bless a MOG." or "Let me bless you."
Once he asked me how I was keeping myself "tender" (He was referring to sexually satisfied in the corps.) He asked if I masterbated. I said "no" He said how are you staying "sweet." I told him I did not need sex to keep me sweet! Then, I stared at him.
I thought ya know, better men then you have tried with me and I said no, what makes this fat .... old man think I am going to drop my pants and do the deed with him?
Then, I realized he was so "gone" he really thought all women should allow him to touch them - because he thought he was that great!
Narcissistic at the least - the criminal mind at most (or worse).
WG -You dodged a bullet! In a motel room near midnight with a man only in PJ bottoms -- and now you know he was a sexual preditor...
You dodged a bullet!
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on January 31, 2003 at 18:58.]
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Larry P2
Ya know, I gotta share something on here.....
I do not think any of Mr. Weirwille's sexual activities with followers were remotely consensual. I say that because I personally knew one example of a woman who I now truly believe was possibly sexually abused by the Old Grifter or other higher ups in TWI. Man, was she screwed up.....
She was in the Corps and our first Twig leader. She worked partime as a bartender while she was getting enough people together for the first "class." That's where my roomate and I met her. She said she was an ordained minister which I thought was something else, working as a bartender. I thought "Great" a minister that luvs booze the way I did. Which at the time was my primary interest in life!
Anyway, after the first night we met her, I could tell my roomate and her were hitting it off fast so I left them in the bar. He regaled me the next morning with his tale of doing the nasty on the pool table after closing. I thought Hmmmm "A boozer AND a slut.....kinda strange combo for a minister, but oh well, at least this is a Bible Study where I can drink all the beer I want."
Well my roomate's flings usually lasted about a week, and so did this one, although they both did move into the local huge TWI house with several other waybots. About that time I had my motorcycle accident and was pretty tore up physically, and went back to mom's house to recooperate.
I don't remember exactly why the TWI household disinigrated, other than a bunch of single people living together like that tends to be by nature a pretty unstable living arrangment. Anyhew, when it all split up, I moved back to my own house and my roomate moved back in with his flocks of girlfriends.
She used to bundle me up in her car, crutches and all and take me for long drives through the country-side. She seemed really upset about her situation with TWI, apparently it wasn't going so well (The Limb Leader told me later she was ousted for some reason which I do not remember). I didn't understand the politics of it at all, but once in awhile we would stop and be looking at some of the beautiful vistas and she would just sob. She wouldn't tell me what was going on, and I always assumed it musta been really complex on many different levels.
You know, female stuff.
See, I am totally dense about such things. I am always the last person who figures out what is REALLY going on. Particularly when it comes to women, plus I think she was really worried about the effect anything she might divulge would have on my recooperation process. She would drive me in for my frequent blood transfusions, so she well knew how physically fragile I was.
She did express terrible remorse and terribly regretted the way she had carried on sexually with my roomate and some of the other Twig guys. I don't think she was at all naturally that kind of a woman. In fact, when she was around me she seemed to revert to being really shy, inexperienced and vulnerable and with my painful shyness around women and me focusing on my terrible physical injuries and loss of energy this was a combination that was doomed to stay a purely platonic freindship.
She kept that famous picture of Weirwille on his motorcycle next to her bed and I caught her crying several times when I hobbled through there to use the bathroom. When she looked at that picture, the corners of her mouth would get really tight. Her eyes were bright with hatred. She tried to hide it, but she didn't do a very good job of it.
She appeared very angry whenever someone would even mention the photo. There was some sort of trauma there I never got to the bottom of.
But then again, I am pretty dumb about such things.
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A la prochaine
Larry,
Sounds like another 'stolen soul' to me.
Must tell you sir, your posts are fantastic! Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us on GS.
I loved the one on the "intelligence" thread!
Bonsoir!
'til the next time...
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