cmon, oldiesman--pretend we're talking about, oh, maybe your flesh and blood sister at say,the ripe old age of 19, 21, 24...vs 60, 63 year old vic...who's outa fyellowship here, the stupid kid or the wise old managawd???
...take all the time ya want, it's only YOUR sister, om.....
I'm trying to be real delicate here. Let's put your experience aside. Okay? The following question has NOTHING to do with YOU or what YOU went through. It is not directed at YOU. Okay?
Would you agree that at least SOME PEOPLE might possibly fit the description oldies presented? SOME? Not all. Not even a majority. Let's say, four people. Would you agree that of the many many people who engaged in adultery with Wierwille, that it's possible about FOUR of them were Wierwille worshippers who were more than happy to shower their favor on him?
I think SOME people fit that description. I think that does NOT distract from VPW's responsibility as a Christian, and particularly as a Christian minister, to refrain from such behavior. So it doesn't absolve him, but it does lay the tiniest bit of blame on those women, however few they may have been, who looked at Wierwille's seduction as a blessing rather than a curse.
In any event, I think Oldies is a nice guy, and I know you're hurting when you call him the things you called him.
certainly there must be some, yes--but the ones that I know personally, as well as those that I know of, run 20 to 1 against om's choice # 3.
om may be a nice guy, don't know...
he comes across as WILLFULLY ignorant--he's been around these boards awhile; said he was at the old gs in some post of his in the last 6 months. He plays the uninformed ex-way a bit too smoothly for me....CAUTION--just my smelly opinion, unlike the first-person testimony I, and many others, have concerning slicky-vicy.
This is from Karl Kahler's book, talking about LCM's alleged affair with the female lead in the Athletes of the Spirit production. I do not have all the specifics of the situation, but does this not sound like a case of there having to be 'two to tango', at least in this one specific instance?
you have certainly brought up an exception there...
I will not go into detail at all but That individual had a long history. She picked up on the anything goes sexual mores of da way and at one time embraced it to the hilt. I hope and pray that in the past 17 years she has matured and moved on from that sordid bit of her history.
I will confirm what alfakat said - I also know this individual and he hit the nail on the head.
Remember - a lot of Corps were taught that anything is okay as long as you don't condemn yourself (from Romans 14:22). I heard that within 2 weeks of going in-rez.
There was an attitude of "anything goes" - at least there was when I was in the Corps.
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
So at the very least there was ONE person who fit the description with LCM. It doesn't excuse LCM, but it makes it harder for that one person to claim victim status.
Now, is it so hard to believe that out of the God knows how many women who slept with Wierwille, MAYBE, just MAYBE, a handful also fit that description, even with Wierwille?
Not a majority. Not even a lot. Just SOME.
And it still doesn't excuse Wierwille, but it robs those very few possible people of "victim" status. Is that so unreasonable?
I appreciate that Zix dug up that page from Karl's site. And I appreciate that I've built the kind of record on these boards where people will know that I am no apologist for Wierwille.
I have found that Oldiesman is honest about his positions and will listen to reason when it comes to those who challenge him. I question some of his positions and opinions. I do not question his motive or heart.
Ex I know this still must be hard to continue to go over this again and agin. I hope it helps you. The stories that I read like yours are so sickening.
WG- I would suggest, as I think Radar did, to look up some psychological studies done on rape victims. I have read some. You know, it is not just victims in twi and of VP that keep silent. Women who are raped sometimes never say a word.
I had something happen to me when I was very young and never told a soul until some "loving" leadership basically forced it out of me through fear and intimidation and my tears. I would have probably just never said a word about it to anyone, not even my parents. There are still very few people that I have told.
Do you think that these women or others like me are just so F'ed up in the head that they would make things up for some insane reason. Sure there are the minority that has done this in the courts.
For some sex is rarely even talked about. Why would it be easy to talk about an incounter that you are ashamed of.
You lose apart of yourself. It is "soul stealing" in a way. How do you expect someone in that condision to be so bold and confident to go to the authorities? He was the authority as Ex said. Would you expect a child to call the police on their father?
Is this helping at all?
I hope so.
It is not an easy subject. Especially for those that have been mistreated and taken advantage of and stolen from.
I hope that some of what people have said here helps.
Oh, and by the way: the fact that I believe such women did exist does not in any way invalidate the contemptible abuse of authority exhibited by VPW, LCM or anyone else in a position of leadership. What they did to God's people in God's name is utterly reprehensible and should be exposed for the same reason that Solomon's ridiculousness needs to be exposed. We cannot allow it to be repeated.
I didn't think you were requesting or expecting a response.
There were too many people, too many, who were abused at the hands of two men (and their minions) who refused to heed the Bible's clear instructions on sex. They hurt God's people in God's name, twisting the scriptures to satisfy their lusts. They abused the trust of God's people, then spread vicious and hateful lies about those women when the women tried to reconcile the MOGs' behavior with the God they were told is all love. I have no sympathy for what they did, and hold them responsible for their behavior (as I hold myself responsible for my own).
With that said, there were SOME (1? 3? 9? I don't know) women for whom the encounters were consensual. They didn't speak up because they aren't "victims." The existence of these women does not invalidate the existence of real victims, nor does it excuse the reprehensible and ungodly behavior of the MOGs.
Does that count as a reply? I really meant no disrespect.
So at the very least there was ONE person who fit the description with LCM. It doesn't excuse LCM, but it makes it harder for that one person to claim victim status.
I thank you too Zix, and many thanks to you Rafael for the support and kind words. They're appreciated, always.
Thank you for replying to my post so promptly, and for sharing your heart with us so that we know these things really happened to real people.
Oldies:
No sweat. I remember we clashed quite famously, and I really respected the way you handled yourself throughout. Now, if only I could get you to understand where I'm coming from on the subject of giving...
Geez some people just seem to miss the boat entirely and are so content to swim around in the swamp.
It matters none, not one little eeny, teeny, tiny iota if the "lucky" participant was willing!! Hell it wouldn't even matter if they had stripped and thrown themselves on the man. IT WAS HIS RESPONSIBILITY, AND HIS ALONE, TO RESIST THAT TEMPATION LET ALONE ENCOURAGE IT!!!!!
Sometimes I fear much of this nit picking has to do with past indiscretions and wanting to "justify" or hide behind God's forgiveness...well OKAY I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU THAT GOD FORGIVES/FORGETS BUT IT ALL STILL WAS WRONG AND HAD TO BE ADDRESSED BECAUSE SWEEPING IT UNDER THE RUG, LOCK BOXING IT, PERSISTENT DOUBTING IT OR JUSTIFYING IT JUST AIN'T RIGHT AND I BET GOD/MORAL PEOPLE WOULDN'T BUY THAT EITHER!
Sorry for the caps but I cannot tolerate much of this stubbornness that seems to not want to learn and grow but would rather make excuses, justify or bury bad behavior on the pretext of forgiveness.
Sure God forgives but he expects you to eventually learn, grow up so he can move on and forgive you for something else...!
Obviously something the Doc was unwilling to do because he had convinced himself that he was doing nothing wrong!!!!!!!!!
Did you miss the MULTIPLE times I said that a willing participant does not excuse the reprehensible behavior of VPW or LCM? Would you like me to point out the mutliple times I said that... and the time I came back and made sure I said it AGAIN on ANOTHER POST just to make sure the point was not lost?
Before you accuse anyone of stubbornly swimming around in the swamp, make sure we are at least arguably guilty of committing the offense. In this case, we are provably innocent.
I agree with you: it does not excuse LCM's behavior. It does not excuse Vic's behavior. Okay? Okay?
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excathedra
oldies,
you are a fooking ashhole
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oldiesman
Ouch.
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alfakat
cmon, oldiesman--pretend we're talking about, oh, maybe your flesh and blood sister at say,the ripe old age of 19, 21, 24...vs 60, 63 year old vic...who's outa fyellowship here, the stupid kid or the wise old managawd???
...take all the time ya want, it's only YOUR sister, om.....
sheeeeeesh lou-eeze!!!
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Raf
excath:
I'm trying to be real delicate here. Let's put your experience aside. Okay? The following question has NOTHING to do with YOU or what YOU went through. It is not directed at YOU. Okay?
Would you agree that at least SOME PEOPLE might possibly fit the description oldies presented? SOME? Not all. Not even a majority. Let's say, four people. Would you agree that of the many many people who engaged in adultery with Wierwille, that it's possible about FOUR of them were Wierwille worshippers who were more than happy to shower their favor on him?
I think SOME people fit that description. I think that does NOT distract from VPW's responsibility as a Christian, and particularly as a Christian minister, to refrain from such behavior. So it doesn't absolve him, but it does lay the tiniest bit of blame on those women, however few they may have been, who looked at Wierwille's seduction as a blessing rather than a curse.
In any event, I think Oldies is a nice guy, and I know you're hurting when you call him the things you called him.
Sorry for butting in.
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excathedra
rafael i certainly understand what you're saying
and i like oldies, i thought that even came across in the way i addressed him
as far as where to lay the blame, can't help you with that
peace mwah
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alfakat
certainly there must be some, yes--but the ones that I know personally, as well as those that I know of, run 20 to 1 against om's choice # 3.
om may be a nice guy, don't know...
he comes across as WILLFULLY ignorant--he's been around these boards awhile; said he was at the old gs in some post of his in the last 6 months. He plays the uninformed ex-way a bit too smoothly for me....CAUTION--just my smelly opinion, unlike the first-person testimony I, and many others, have concerning slicky-vicy.
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Steve!
Alfie -
Yes, I agree, Oldiesman does seem like a nice guy, but way too often he appears to be arguing just for the sake of arguing.
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Zixar
http://www.ex-way.com/excerpts/chapter12.htm
This is from Karl Kahler's book, talking about LCM's alleged affair with the female lead in the Athletes of the Spirit production. I do not have all the specifics of the situation, but does this not sound like a case of there having to be 'two to tango', at least in this one specific instance?
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excathedra
and guess what
just because i despise what wierwille did to people doesn't mean i despise wierwillites
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alfakat
you have certainly brought up an exception there...
I will not go into detail at all but That individual had a long history. She picked up on the anything goes sexual mores of da way and at one time embraced it to the hilt. I hope and pray that in the past 17 years she has matured and moved on from that sordid bit of her history.
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excathedra
i think y'all are missing the boat
but what do i know
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excathedra
we posted at the same time alfa
must be because we're like minded
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alfakat
we must be carrying around equal-sized chunks of The REnewed MIND... yessirreee, thats the answer
muuhhwwwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
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Hope R.
I will confirm what alfakat said - I also know this individual and he hit the nail on the head.
Remember - a lot of Corps were taught that anything is okay as long as you don't condemn yourself (from Romans 14:22). I heard that within 2 weeks of going in-rez.
There was an attitude of "anything goes" - at least there was when I was in the Corps.
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
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Raf
Thanks Zix.
So at the very least there was ONE person who fit the description with LCM. It doesn't excuse LCM, but it makes it harder for that one person to claim victim status.
Now, is it so hard to believe that out of the God knows how many women who slept with Wierwille, MAYBE, just MAYBE, a handful also fit that description, even with Wierwille?
Not a majority. Not even a lot. Just SOME.
And it still doesn't excuse Wierwille, but it robs those very few possible people of "victim" status. Is that so unreasonable?
I appreciate that Zix dug up that page from Karl's site. And I appreciate that I've built the kind of record on these boards where people will know that I am no apologist for Wierwille.
I have found that Oldiesman is honest about his positions and will listen to reason when it comes to those who challenge him. I question some of his positions and opinions. I do not question his motive or heart.
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lindyhopper
Ex I know this still must be hard to continue to go over this again and agin. I hope it helps you. The stories that I read like yours are so sickening.
WG- I would suggest, as I think Radar did, to look up some psychological studies done on rape victims. I have read some. You know, it is not just victims in twi and of VP that keep silent. Women who are raped sometimes never say a word.
I had something happen to me when I was very young and never told a soul until some "loving" leadership basically forced it out of me through fear and intimidation and my tears. I would have probably just never said a word about it to anyone, not even my parents. There are still very few people that I have told.
Do you think that these women or others like me are just so F'ed up in the head that they would make things up for some insane reason. Sure there are the minority that has done this in the courts.
For some sex is rarely even talked about. Why would it be easy to talk about an incounter that you are ashamed of.
You lose apart of yourself. It is "soul stealing" in a way. How do you expect someone in that condision to be so bold and confident to go to the authorities? He was the authority as Ex said. Would you expect a child to call the police on their father?
Is this helping at all?
I hope so.
It is not an easy subject. Especially for those that have been mistreated and taken advantage of and stolen from.
I hope that some of what people have said here helps.
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Raf
Oh, and by the way: the fact that I believe such women did exist does not in any way invalidate the contemptible abuse of authority exhibited by VPW, LCM or anyone else in a position of leadership. What they did to God's people in God's name is utterly reprehensible and should be exposed for the same reason that Solomon's ridiculousness needs to be exposed. We cannot allow it to be repeated.
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excathedra
thank you lindy very much
rafael, am i dreaming, or did you address me initially, but not after i responded to you
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Raf
I didn't think you were requesting or expecting a response.
There were too many people, too many, who were abused at the hands of two men (and their minions) who refused to heed the Bible's clear instructions on sex. They hurt God's people in God's name, twisting the scriptures to satisfy their lusts. They abused the trust of God's people, then spread vicious and hateful lies about those women when the women tried to reconcile the MOGs' behavior with the God they were told is all love. I have no sympathy for what they did, and hold them responsible for their behavior (as I hold myself responsible for my own).
With that said, there were SOME (1? 3? 9? I don't know) women for whom the encounters were consensual. They didn't speak up because they aren't "victims." The existence of these women does not invalidate the existence of real victims, nor does it excuse the reprehensible and ungodly behavior of the MOGs.
Does that count as a reply? I really meant no disrespect.
Raf
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excathedra
yeah well
you talk to me
i talk to you
it's a difficult thing for me
i guess it has to do with that non-entity thing
(you did address me by name and i did so back)
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oldiesman
I thank you too Zix, and many thanks to you Rafael for the support and kind words. They're appreciated, always.
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Raf
Excath:
Thank you for replying to my post so promptly, and for sharing your heart with us so that we know these things really happened to real people.
Oldies:
No sweat. I remember we clashed quite famously, and I really respected the way you handled yourself throughout. Now, if only I could get you to understand where I'm coming from on the subject of giving...
Oh well. One thing at a time.
The Living Epistles Society
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WyoMan
Geez some people just seem to miss the boat entirely and are so content to swim around in the swamp.
It matters none, not one little eeny, teeny, tiny iota if the "lucky" participant was willing!! Hell it wouldn't even matter if they had stripped and thrown themselves on the man. IT WAS HIS RESPONSIBILITY, AND HIS ALONE, TO RESIST THAT TEMPATION LET ALONE ENCOURAGE IT!!!!!
Sometimes I fear much of this nit picking has to do with past indiscretions and wanting to "justify" or hide behind God's forgiveness...well OKAY I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU THAT GOD FORGIVES/FORGETS BUT IT ALL STILL WAS WRONG AND HAD TO BE ADDRESSED BECAUSE SWEEPING IT UNDER THE RUG, LOCK BOXING IT, PERSISTENT DOUBTING IT OR JUSTIFYING IT JUST AIN'T RIGHT AND I BET GOD/MORAL PEOPLE WOULDN'T BUY THAT EITHER!
Sorry for the caps but I cannot tolerate much of this stubbornness that seems to not want to learn and grow but would rather make excuses, justify or bury bad behavior on the pretext of forgiveness.
Sure God forgives but he expects you to eventually learn, grow up so he can move on and forgive you for something else...!
Obviously something the Doc was unwilling to do because he had convinced himself that he was doing nothing wrong!!!!!!!!!
Al Hendrickson
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Raf
Whoah, Al, first of all, calm down.
Did you miss the MULTIPLE times I said that a willing participant does not excuse the reprehensible behavior of VPW or LCM? Would you like me to point out the mutliple times I said that... and the time I came back and made sure I said it AGAIN on ANOTHER POST just to make sure the point was not lost?
Before you accuse anyone of stubbornly swimming around in the swamp, make sure we are at least arguably guilty of committing the offense. In this case, we are provably innocent.
I agree with you: it does not excuse LCM's behavior. It does not excuse Vic's behavior. Okay? Okay?
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