You are right. It is much worse than just being unfaithful to his wife.
I am so sorry for all the women that he hurt. I am thankful that I wasnt one of them. He came to Louisiana when I was a WOW. I think we all went to New Orleans. He looked at me and smiled. GAWD, I wonder what he was thinking!
She knew. She had to have known. Why did she stay with him? To set an example of a faithful wife? How could she want other women to follow her lead in this situation, and thus go through the same horrible kind of relationship? Or did she actually think this was acceptable for the "Man of God"? For any man? Definitely she was a victim - one of many. But why did she stick with the creep? -Pat
Excie,if he was single,or widowed,and he carried on like he did,would it have been any more excusable?....You raise an interesting point...Lost in all of VP's dicktatership,was his sacred vows w/ Mrs. W's. being repeatedly violated....She may have stuck with him because she was a product of her generation and religious heretige....
and let me quote one thing rev. pamela cooper white says in that article:
quote:Even when adultery is involved, unfaithfullness is not the primary issue. I have found that ministers enter into romantic or sexual relationships with parishioners primarily because there is an imbalance of power between them at the outset and because they need to reinforce and heighten the intensity of that power dynamic. This is need is driven by internal forces and Is reinforced by societaly conditioned expectations that women will function as a nurturing, sexual servant class
**
i also thought soul stealing was a beautiful description
and it makes you doubt -- you know this "great person" telling you all about God -- it makes you doubt that there could even be a God so to speak -- at least who wants the God he's sharing when he's like he is
that didn't come out right
no i'm not talking to myself -- i hate long posts -- so i'm doing lots of little ones ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
(((((((((((Ex)))))))))) I wish I could KILL him for what he did ......for what he did to so many trusting souls....
It must be terribly difficult (it is for me anyway) to listen to folks defend this deviant pervert....to revere him as some kind of saint that stumbled just a mite..and to laud the ministry that he hid behind.
He dangled God and all the answeres to life in fornt of us like a carrot.....he said *I* can show you the word of God....the *will* of God...show you how to make life meaningfull ...how to have harmony in your home..all those promises to win our trust... passed himself off as GOD`S representative......used that facade to put us off our Guard.... to eventually lure trusting victims into his grasp...
He betrayed you vilely...he betrayed the God he was supposed to represent...he betrayed his wife...his vows...us who supported him...who spent our entire adult lives focused on promoting his ministry, because we trusted him...believed that twi was the BEST way to make God known to people....
It just KILLS me when folks come along...sayin...yeah...but all THATS ok...cause *I* got the WORD!!!!
There are not words to express the contempt I feel for this ravager of lives and destroyer of souls....
The ONLY reason he was never held accountable in THIS world ... is because he hid behind God and the bible...He USED them to facillitate the fullfillment of his sick lusts....to crush the hearts of precious people.
I dearly hope there will be justice in the next...
You lil rascal, don't you fret your lil ole heart about your 'hope'. It shalt (absolute tense) happen. Too many 'laws' of God would have to be broken to not accomodate this just recompense.
And Ex, maybe true justice will happen at that time, with the victims confronting their oppressors/deceivers and having a say as to the 'rewards of iniquity'.
I am thankful that all that was stolen from me was a number of years, a wife, unknown career opportunities, a fistful of dollars, and some innocense & simplicity. But I did gain a few friendships that I will always be thankful for ...
Absolutely, ex, Mr. Wierwille didn't "have a problem in one area of his life," he IGNORED what he was teaching because it didn't "fit like a hand in a glove" (or a Trojan on a ...!) with what he wanted to do, which was prey on young women. Sexual predation WAS his life. This wasn't a "mistake," this was cold and calculated, involved massive amounts of time and planning, and the cooperation of others to find women and join him on his power exploits. Because that's what they were -- not "relationships" (makes me sick), but a desparate need for power from one who felt powerless.
Wierwille taught "Power for Abindant Living," yet his actions say that he needed to dominate others in order to feel good. And who did he go after? The loving and tenderhearted believers whose boundaries were often muddied by prior abuse, who were trying to reconcile what Wierwille had taught them with what he was doing to them.
Maybe some of us first heard about Godly things from TWI. If we gleaned any good from them, then we should be thanking God that we could glean some good from so much evil. I for one could never be thankful that my knowledge was gained at the expense of so many souls. I would've rather learned some other Way.
The thing I find so curious about all of this is that I wonder why, if Dr. Wierwille viciously, coldly and heartlessly sexually abused all of these hundreds upon hundreds of innocent, vulnerable young girls and women, why on earth did NOT ONE SOUL complain until after he was dead? Why did not one innocent girl, tormented beyond belief,speak up like the Allens did or January Barnes?
If this indeed went on for years and years with hundreds, perhaps thousands of women, why keep quiet about it until after his death? Why not scream foul and sue? Lots of newspapers in the area would've loved to talk to a victim!
Just asking.
"The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones."
You've of course heard of famous Biblical concepts such as "The Lockbox" and "Spiritual Maturity," haven't you?
As in, "You'll keep our little tryst in the Lockbox, just in case your husband isn't spiritually mature enough to handle it, won't you?"
In addition, if a woman DID try to talk about VPW's unvarnished sexual evil, who would most, if not all Weirwillians believe?
A Devil Possessed Whore?
versus "The Unrivaled Spiritual Stud Muffin for the 21st Century?"
And don't you find it quite intriguing that so many ex-TWI "leaders" courageously discovered enough ethical integrity to discuss VPW's widespread sexual perversions only after they were fired?
If they knew about it before they were fired, why do you suppose they kept their mouths shut?
And why do you suppose VPW deliberately scuttled TWi with the Passage of the Old Poop rant? Could it have been a last ditch effort to prevent the revealing of his evil?
After all, he wasn't enough of a profit to predict the Age of the Internet, was he?
Nope, never heard it in that context, just that if someone shared their heart with me in confidence over some problem or sin in their past, I was not to blab.
I'm not saying I have an opinion one way or the other. Just asked a question. I am a woman and I know women tend to talk, and from 1977 to 1985 I was around WC and leadership, and I never once heard any rumors or saw anything suggesting he was involved in such activity. The fact that the lock was firmly on the lockbox or whatever, if in fact there was one, makes the complaints a little one-sided, though.
I'll say it again: Why did no one speak up while he was alive?
You might wanna read Catcup's last post over on the "VPW was a believer" thread.
Think about what happened to her sister, and all the reasons she kept silent about VPW's sexual aggression until Catcup and the rest of the family left TWI.
It's very easy to understand why it wasn't discussed until the Age of the Internet. Unless you think Catcup's sister should have published a book about it? Would you have fronted the money to have it published?
And Watered Garden, would YOU have supported a woman in a lawsuit against VPW in 1980? How about 1984, or would you have felt guilty about picking on "an old, sick man?" Would YOU have testified in Court against VPW on her behalf? Would Catcup have supported her sister in her allegations against VPW? What about if her sister decided to sue the Old Grifter?
I didn't think so.
PS: Remember that oh-so-convenient doctrine about not taking your problems with another believer to court? Gosh, that couldn't have been totally out of self-interest for VPW to have taught that, could it?
[This message was edited by Larry P2 on January 29, 2003 at 6:37.]
Oh man, so many thoughts! When I first read this post yesterday, I thought of my former mother-in-law advice to me when my her son beat me up one time and she found out about it. She told me to what she did to her husband back when he beat her up the first time.
She decided that to divorce him would not only make it tougher on their kids, but on herself as well. She felt her kids deserved to have her home everyday when they left for school and returned home. She told me that she felt she was doing the right thing "sacrificing herself" for her kids this way.
When she found out her husband cheated on her, she felt the same way and bought separate beds. They were in their early 30's at the point she bought separate beds. To this day, they sleep in separate beds.
There was a stigma in our society that looked down on women who divorced in her day, as if it were their fault they couldn't keep their man happy. She said it always made the woman suffer more than the man.
She also said it would give him permission to start over with another woman if she left him, and that he would probably do the same to any new woman eventually.
This man is almost 80 and Mom is in her mid 70's today.
I'm not speaking for Mrs. W. or anyone else, but this is what a lady within 10 years or so of her age told me over 20 years ago.
That is the best article I have seen, even better than "Why it's Not An Affair" because it is more specific and detailed.
Perhaps we could ask Paw to link it on the main page of GS.
Watered garden -
Although it never happened to me, I had a very close Corps girlfriend who told me about how she was coerced into having sex with VP on her interim year. It's a long story, and she tells it well on John Juedes' site. It's called "Marsha's Story". (click here)
After Marsha decided to leave TWI, she came to see me in NJ. I didn't know why she was there, we'd only been out on the field for 5 or 6 months, but she called and asked to come over and talk to me. She then told me what you can read on the link above.
After she left, I was shaking, crying, confused, hurt - you name it. I got on my knees and prayed for answers on what to do about what she had told me. (yeah, yeah, I hardly ever kneel when I pray - but that night - I did!).
The next day, I called V.F. - who was the World Wide Grand Poobah at the time. I repeated Marsha's story to him, every word I could remember. After I was finished, there was silence on the other end of the line. He then said: "Well, do you believe her?"
I told him I didn't know what to believe - that her story had details, times, places, names, that it was hard not to believe.
He then told me that "deceiving spirits first have to deceive the person they're in before they can deceive you" and went on to list the multiplicity of devils my friend was possessed with (charming, lying, deceiving, the one that breaks up marriages, etc.).
I'm sorry to say that I listened to him. I mean, how could it be true??? VPW was my "father in the Word", the "Man of God" for our day and time!!!
At one of the the ROAs after VP died, I don't remember if it was '85 or during the PoP explosion of '86, I heard the story again. This time it was from another woman... and it was about HER, not Marsha. I was stunned. Then, within the group I was with, someone else spoke up and said it happened to them as well!
When I asked why no one said anything there were two answers that stood out in my mind:
1. No one would believe them.
2. They believed they were "doing the Word" according to the MOG.
Scriptures were used to justify his lechery. I Kings 1:1 - 3, and 15 & 16 when David was old and they put a young virgin in his bed so he could "get heat" and she "ministered" to him. Of course, that was defined with a sexual connotation so these poor women could think they were blessing the MOG.
Then they twisted the scripture further and taught that the Shunammite woman of 2 Kings 4 took care of Elisha when he came to visit her - why, she even gave him is own room!
And there was more about "highly esteeming" those who are "over you in the Lord"... and other verses I can't think of right now.
So you see, there were a many reasons these women wouldn't say anything. The fear of being kicked out of TWI was even greater back then because most of our lives were wrapped up in it's structure - our physical, mental, social, and spiritual lives were dependent on TWI to the point where many could ignore the sin in the camp.
There's someone who posts on GS who was with me when these conversations at the Rock took place. I hope this person can remember it, it was a long time ago...
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
Larry P2, please don't ask me a question and then answer it for me. That's very rude. You don't know me at all, I hope, and you have no idea if I would have supported a woman who filed suit. Quite honestly, it would have depended on whether I knew the woman, and if I did, whether I believed her, and yes, I would have been able to believe certain people.
Maybe I'm a doubting Thomas. Being a mere humble peon of a believer in TWI-1, I was never around a lot of highfalutin' WC, just my WOW sister who was 4th WC and certainly never said anything.
Oddly enough, I have no problem believe LCM would do just about anything.
I have had lots of people tell me that someone told them that this was going on. I'm NOT saying, dammit, that this is all a pack of lies, okay? I edited out my smart remark but not quickly enough, it seems. I just don't understand why hundreds of women kept quiet about it during his lifetime.
Watered Garden - I am only speaking for myself here. I am a woman too. I was involved with twi from 1979-1994.
When I first heard that Howard Allen french-kissed girls when we would approach him at the roa and greet him "with a holy kiss," my first reaction was "no way." After I thought about it some, I quit approaching him at the rock, just in case.
In the back of my mind I wondered if it were true, but I had no personal proof. Somehow, I pushed it all the way to the back of my mind and no longer thought about it. But I made sure never to be close enough that it could happen to me.
When I first heard about vpw in the motorcoach, I couldn't believe it. It was never anyone I knew personally, and it just didn't fit with my image of who I thought that man was. Just like the story about ha, I pushed those thoughts to the back of my mind. Again, I made sure I was never in a position to be close enough to hom to risk being victimized. But I never talked to anyone else about what I had heard, again not wanting to believe it could be true.
Eventually, after hearing many similar stories, I quit doubting.
Today, I say shame on me for ignoring those nagging doubts. I've learned a lot about what people are capable of doing to one another since those days.
With lcm, it was pretty much the same to me, until I got m & a'd over supposedly being lesbian and allowing my son to be homosexual.
I said it before, that's where they blew it with me. You never really know another's heart unless they choose to reveal it to you, but you do know your own. And I knew I wasn't a lesbian.
Pretty much up until then, I didn't want to believe evil of who I thought was the MOG, so I pretty much pushed those thoughts away.
Another thing - when someone is sexually molested, usually they go into a sort of denial. It's an unbelievable situation to find yourself in.
When it's vpw or lcm and the victim was "just a believer," how horribly intimidating it would have been to confront.
I personally don't understand how anyone could convince me that it would be okay with God for me to have sex with a married man of God, but then, my NBW friends that saw me right before I entered the way family corps could not understand my thinking at that time.
I can't say how I would have handled any of those situations that those ladies were confronted with. I just thank God it wasn't me. And I pray for their total healing.
I do believe every woman that said she was sexually abused by a leader in twi really was. I do not believe that anyone would ever make up a story like that.
I just really believe them to be telling the truth with every fiber of my being.
No offense to you personally, but it hurts my heart to read anyone doubt any of the victims, especially after so much has been revealed over these last few years.
WG you raise a very good point, why DIDN'T women speak up at the time of being assaulted, or at least soon after? I can't really speak to EXACT SPECIFICS and TRUE motivations of these women but I have given this much thought over the past few years and here I go:
First I want to say that I am MUCH more familiar with LCM and his activities and the time frame AFTER 1982 as that is when I went into residence in the corps. Upon graduating on July 6, 1985 I went directly on staff at HQ and was there until August 19th 1994.
Many women that have been spiritually & physically abused were completely "disabled" emotionally. Just like with any other rape victim...back in the 70s and 80s they still believed that MAYBE, somehow, some way....they could have personally brought it all on themselves. In 1978 I was VIOLENTLY raped by a guy in my twig that was out on prison furlough...and the then limb coordinator REFUSED to LET me report it to the police because it would look bad on the ministry. I was barely 18....and what the heck did I know?
I don't remember the public sentiment beginning to change to realize the truth about assault and rape until that Jodie Foster movie, "The Accused." We as a society are just now beginning to realize that NO MEANS NO, and that there are boundries that should NEVER be crossed such as ministers to their flock.
There were plenty of women that spoke up, and as illustrated in HopeR's post the top poobahs were completely rehearsed in the company - line damage control. The women who spoke up were immediately labeled as possessed, anything they spoke as lies from the pit of hell, and anyone that listened to them were all "thrown under the bus" with them. The women that spoke up were discredited and marked with a scarlet letter.
Over the last 30 years there have been plenty of lawsuits of all kinds filed against twi. Most of them were very quietly and privately settled, some very early on. Twi was careful to let only a select few even know about them.
I firmly believe that the reason the Allens and JKB were able to take twi to the mat with their lawsuits is because both of the husbands of these victims were solidly behind their wives.
In addition we can't underestimate the fact the Ex-Twi(P Allen) is a very smart man that understood the power the internet held for publishing information. Waydale did exactly what he intended for it to do.....give an insider's look at twi workings and the board of trustees. The internet allowed THOUSANDS of disenfranchised pfal grads to come together and compare notes, gain strength, increase in knowledge and GAIN POWER THROUGH UNITY.
I am sorry this post is so long.....I try not to write novelettes any more but this subject is important to me.
When I realized years ago that VPW had a woman in every port and the sex was much more prevalent than could really be imagined, that VP had been abusing TWIers as far back as when he first visited us "Groovy Christians" in Rye, New York where he had relations with at least one in particular 16 year old that I know of, it makes me sick.
Reading the article, I particularly liked the phrase that no one else in the parish is spiritual enough to handle it! Boy, where have we heard that one?? In fact, every reason given in that article I have heard at some time or other.
When VPW came on to me graphically and lewdly, he told me a "secret" as to why he had sex with the girls and not his wife. I had to keep it lockbox and not tell a soul. Later, I heard he told this same "secret" to other girls. Also, those of you who never knew anything was going on, well, VPW was very careful who he picked - the vulnerable, those who wouldn't tell. Read the article. How these pastors almost have "psychic" ability, is how one parishoner put it, as to who to pick.
And women did speak up. I know a woman in the first family corps who was very angry when VP came on to her and had been doing it to others. She was immediately thrown out and her name slandered, even in our town where she was from. She had "tripped out and was possessed." The standard line they gave. Any woman who spoke up was out - quick.
The rest, some even proud to be part of VPW's "secret club" never discussed it with the "uninitiated" or those not "spiritualy mature" enough to handle it.
One of the major premises of the soul stealing article seems to be the following:
quote:As with rape, a pastor's sexual or romantic involvement with a parishioner is not primarily a matter of sex or sexuality but of power and control.
Says who? Would it be at least a possibility that the pastor is having sexual relations because he's horny?
I don't doubt there are some cases like this, but I'd like to see the definitive proof that every sexual relation of a pastor/perishioner is about power and control.
What about the woman? what if she willingly wants it?
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act2
Excathedra, I sent you a private topic.
You are right. It is much worse than just being unfaithful to his wife.
I am so sorry for all the women that he hurt. I am thankful that I wasnt one of them. He came to Louisiana when I was a WOW. I think we all went to New Orleans. He looked at me and smiled. GAWD, I wonder what he was thinking!
The decisions we make today form our future.
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Schwaigers
She knew. She had to have known. Why did she stay with him? To set an example of a faithful wife? How could she want other women to follow her lead in this situation, and thus go through the same horrible kind of relationship? Or did she actually think this was acceptable for the "Man of God"? For any man? Definitely she was a victim - one of many. But why did she stick with the creep? -Pat
schwaiger@direcway.com
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simonzelotes
Excie,if he was single,or widowed,and he carried on like he did,would it have been any more excusable?....You raise an interesting point...Lost in all of VP's dicktatership,was his sacred vows w/ Mrs. W's. being repeatedly violated....She may have stuck with him because she was a product of her generation and religious heretige....
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excathedra
i didn't explain myself well because steam was coming out of my ears and i couldn't think clearly
someone on that other thread referred to wierwille's sin as adultery
what i'm saying it was SO MUCH WORSE THAN THIS
simon you hit the nail on the head -- if he was widowed or single it would not have made it any more excusable -- that's more my point
i often think a paper on spiritual abuse / power would have been more to the point of what was going on than the adultery thesis
remember that chart in pfal, big X's, little x's
oh never mind, i need coffee
here read this, you'll get more where i'm coming from:
http://relfrauds.www4.50megs.com/christian...ulstealing.html
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excathedra
and let me quote one thing rev. pamela cooper white says in that article:
**
i also thought soul stealing was a beautiful description
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excathedra
but wait he was even worse
when he knew you thought of him as a father figure, i mean this now, he still felt it was okay to prey on you
it wasn't like a moment of passion or mistake or getting carried away, you know what i mean
it was thought thru, planned, calculated, like with very little emotion or feeling for the person (me)
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excathedra
that is what hurt so much
being a non-entity (is that the word?)
and it makes you doubt -- you know this "great person" telling you all about God -- it makes you doubt that there could even be a God so to speak -- at least who wants the God he's sharing when he's like he is
that didn't come out right
no i'm not talking to myself -- i hate long posts -- so i'm doing lots of little ones ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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excathedra
you know...
i'm just trying to describe my experience in a cult
i am not saying it was any worse than any other female or male
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excathedra
oh one more thing, even calling it a romantic or sexual relationship (especially the word relationship) is a big fat joke
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rascal
(((((((((((Ex)))))))))) I wish I could KILL him for what he did ......for what he did to so many trusting souls....
It must be terribly difficult (it is for me anyway) to listen to folks defend this deviant pervert....to revere him as some kind of saint that stumbled just a mite..and to laud the ministry that he hid behind.
He dangled God and all the answeres to life in fornt of us like a carrot.....he said *I* can show you the word of God....the *will* of God...show you how to make life meaningfull ...how to have harmony in your home..all those promises to win our trust... passed himself off as GOD`S representative......used that facade to put us off our Guard.... to eventually lure trusting victims into his grasp...
He betrayed you vilely...he betrayed the God he was supposed to represent...he betrayed his wife...his vows...us who supported him...who spent our entire adult lives focused on promoting his ministry, because we trusted him...believed that twi was the BEST way to make God known to people....
It just KILLS me when folks come along...sayin...yeah...but all THATS ok...cause *I* got the WORD!!!!
There are not words to express the contempt I feel for this ravager of lives and destroyer of souls....
The ONLY reason he was never held accountable in THIS world ... is because he hid behind God and the bible...He USED them to facillitate the fullfillment of his sick lusts....to crush the hearts of precious people.
I dearly hope there will be justice in the next...
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tomtuttle
You lil rascal, don't you fret your lil ole heart about your 'hope'. It shalt (absolute tense) happen. Too many 'laws' of God would have to be broken to not accomodate this just recompense.
And Ex, maybe true justice will happen at that time, with the victims confronting their oppressors/deceivers and having a say as to the 'rewards of iniquity'.
I am thankful that all that was stolen from me was a number of years, a wife, unknown career opportunities, a fistful of dollars, and some innocense & simplicity. But I did gain a few friendships that I will always be thankful for ...
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shazdancer
Absolutely, ex, Mr. Wierwille didn't "have a problem in one area of his life," he IGNORED what he was teaching because it didn't "fit like a hand in a glove" (or a Trojan on a ...!) with what he wanted to do, which was prey on young women. Sexual predation WAS his life. This wasn't a "mistake," this was cold and calculated, involved massive amounts of time and planning, and the cooperation of others to find women and join him on his power exploits. Because that's what they were -- not "relationships" (makes me sick), but a desparate need for power from one who felt powerless.
Wierwille taught "Power for Abindant Living," yet his actions say that he needed to dominate others in order to feel good. And who did he go after? The loving and tenderhearted believers whose boundaries were often muddied by prior abuse, who were trying to reconcile what Wierwille had taught them with what he was doing to them.
Ex, if anyone put your resumé and the "Doc's" up on a bulletin board, and said point to the Christian, you would win hands down.
Maybe some of us first heard about Godly things from TWI. If we gleaned any good from them, then we should be thanking God that we could glean some good from so much evil. I for one could never be thankful that my knowledge was gained at the expense of so many souls. I would've rather learned some other Way.
Regards,
shaz
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Watered Garden
The thing I find so curious about all of this is that I wonder why, if Dr. Wierwille viciously, coldly and heartlessly sexually abused all of these hundreds upon hundreds of innocent, vulnerable young girls and women, why on earth did NOT ONE SOUL complain until after he was dead? Why did not one innocent girl, tormented beyond belief,speak up like the Allens did or January Barnes?
If this indeed went on for years and years with hundreds, perhaps thousands of women, why keep quiet about it until after his death? Why not scream foul and sue? Lots of newspapers in the area would've loved to talk to a victim!
Just asking.
"The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones."
Shakespeare
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Larry P2
Watered Garden,
You've of course heard of famous Biblical concepts such as "The Lockbox" and "Spiritual Maturity," haven't you?
As in, "You'll keep our little tryst in the Lockbox, just in case your husband isn't spiritually mature enough to handle it, won't you?"
In addition, if a woman DID try to talk about VPW's unvarnished sexual evil, who would most, if not all Weirwillians believe?
A Devil Possessed Whore?
versus "The Unrivaled Spiritual Stud Muffin for the 21st Century?"
And don't you find it quite intriguing that so many ex-TWI "leaders" courageously discovered enough ethical integrity to discuss VPW's widespread sexual perversions only after they were fired?
If they knew about it before they were fired, why do you suppose they kept their mouths shut?
And why do you suppose VPW deliberately scuttled TWi with the Passage of the Old Poop rant? Could it have been a last ditch effort to prevent the revealing of his evil?
After all, he wasn't enough of a profit to predict the Age of the Internet, was he?
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excathedra
posted by wg
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Watered Garden
Larry P2,
Nope, never heard it in that context, just that if someone shared their heart with me in confidence over some problem or sin in their past, I was not to blab.
I'm not saying I have an opinion one way or the other. Just asked a question. I am a woman and I know women tend to talk, and from 1977 to 1985 I was around WC and leadership, and I never once heard any rumors or saw anything suggesting he was involved in such activity. The fact that the lock was firmly on the lockbox or whatever, if in fact there was one, makes the complaints a little one-sided, though.
I'll say it again: Why did no one speak up while he was alive?
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Larry P2
You might wanna read Catcup's last post over on the "VPW was a believer" thread.
Think about what happened to her sister, and all the reasons she kept silent about VPW's sexual aggression until Catcup and the rest of the family left TWI.
It's very easy to understand why it wasn't discussed until the Age of the Internet. Unless you think Catcup's sister should have published a book about it? Would you have fronted the money to have it published?
And Watered Garden, would YOU have supported a woman in a lawsuit against VPW in 1980? How about 1984, or would you have felt guilty about picking on "an old, sick man?" Would YOU have testified in Court against VPW on her behalf? Would Catcup have supported her sister in her allegations against VPW? What about if her sister decided to sue the Old Grifter?
I didn't think so.
PS: Remember that oh-so-convenient doctrine about not taking your problems with another believer to court? Gosh, that couldn't have been totally out of self-interest for VPW to have taught that, could it?
[This message was edited by Larry P2 on January 29, 2003 at 6:37.]
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bowtwi
Oh man, so many thoughts! When I first read this post yesterday, I thought of my former mother-in-law advice to me when my her son beat me up one time and she found out about it. She told me to what she did to her husband back when he beat her up the first time.
She decided that to divorce him would not only make it tougher on their kids, but on herself as well. She felt her kids deserved to have her home everyday when they left for school and returned home. She told me that she felt she was doing the right thing "sacrificing herself" for her kids this way.
When she found out her husband cheated on her, she felt the same way and bought separate beds. They were in their early 30's at the point she bought separate beds. To this day, they sleep in separate beds.
There was a stigma in our society that looked down on women who divorced in her day, as if it were their fault they couldn't keep their man happy. She said it always made the woman suffer more than the man.
She also said it would give him permission to start over with another woman if she left him, and that he would probably do the same to any new woman eventually.
This man is almost 80 and Mom is in her mid 70's today.
I'm not speaking for Mrs. W. or anyone else, but this is what a lady within 10 years or so of her age told me over 20 years ago.
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Hope R.
Ex -
That is the best article I have seen, even better than "Why it's Not An Affair" because it is more specific and detailed.
Perhaps we could ask Paw to link it on the main page of GS.
Watered garden -
Although it never happened to me, I had a very close Corps girlfriend who told me about how she was coerced into having sex with VP on her interim year. It's a long story, and she tells it well on John Juedes' site. It's called "Marsha's Story". (click here)
After Marsha decided to leave TWI, she came to see me in NJ. I didn't know why she was there, we'd only been out on the field for 5 or 6 months, but she called and asked to come over and talk to me. She then told me what you can read on the link above.
After she left, I was shaking, crying, confused, hurt - you name it. I got on my knees and prayed for answers on what to do about what she had told me. (yeah, yeah, I hardly ever kneel when I pray - but that night - I did!).
The next day, I called V.F. - who was the World Wide Grand Poobah at the time. I repeated Marsha's story to him, every word I could remember. After I was finished, there was silence on the other end of the line. He then said: "Well, do you believe her?"
I told him I didn't know what to believe - that her story had details, times, places, names, that it was hard not to believe.
He then told me that "deceiving spirits first have to deceive the person they're in before they can deceive you" and went on to list the multiplicity of devils my friend was possessed with (charming, lying, deceiving, the one that breaks up marriages, etc.).
I'm sorry to say that I listened to him. I mean, how could it be true??? VPW was my "father in the Word", the "Man of God" for our day and time!!!
At one of the the ROAs after VP died, I don't remember if it was '85 or during the PoP explosion of '86, I heard the story again. This time it was from another woman... and it was about HER, not Marsha. I was stunned. Then, within the group I was with, someone else spoke up and said it happened to them as well!
When I asked why no one said anything there were two answers that stood out in my mind:
1. No one would believe them.
2. They believed they were "doing the Word" according to the MOG.
Scriptures were used to justify his lechery. I Kings 1:1 - 3, and 15 & 16 when David was old and they put a young virgin in his bed so he could "get heat" and she "ministered" to him. Of course, that was defined with a sexual connotation so these poor women could think they were blessing the MOG.
Then they twisted the scripture further and taught that the Shunammite woman of 2 Kings 4 took care of Elisha when he came to visit her - why, she even gave him is own room!
And there was more about "highly esteeming" those who are "over you in the Lord"... and other verses I can't think of right now.
So you see, there were a many reasons these women wouldn't say anything. The fear of being kicked out of TWI was even greater back then because most of our lives were wrapped up in it's structure - our physical, mental, social, and spiritual lives were dependent on TWI to the point where many could ignore the sin in the camp.
There's someone who posts on GS who was with me when these conversations at the Rock took place. I hope this person can remember it, it was a long time ago...
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
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Watered Garden
So you are saying it was FEAR?
Larry P2, please don't ask me a question and then answer it for me. That's very rude. You don't know me at all, I hope, and you have no idea if I would have supported a woman who filed suit. Quite honestly, it would have depended on whether I knew the woman, and if I did, whether I believed her, and yes, I would have been able to believe certain people.
Maybe I'm a doubting Thomas. Being a mere humble peon of a believer in TWI-1, I was never around a lot of highfalutin' WC, just my WOW sister who was 4th WC and certainly never said anything.
Oddly enough, I have no problem believe LCM would do just about anything.
I have had lots of people tell me that someone told them that this was going on. I'm NOT saying, dammit, that this is all a pack of lies, okay? I edited out my smart remark but not quickly enough, it seems. I just don't understand why hundreds of women kept quiet about it during his lifetime.
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bowtwi
Watered Garden - I am only speaking for myself here. I am a woman too. I was involved with twi from 1979-1994.
When I first heard that Howard Allen french-kissed girls when we would approach him at the roa and greet him "with a holy kiss," my first reaction was "no way." After I thought about it some, I quit approaching him at the rock, just in case.
In the back of my mind I wondered if it were true, but I had no personal proof. Somehow, I pushed it all the way to the back of my mind and no longer thought about it. But I made sure never to be close enough that it could happen to me.
When I first heard about vpw in the motorcoach, I couldn't believe it. It was never anyone I knew personally, and it just didn't fit with my image of who I thought that man was. Just like the story about ha, I pushed those thoughts to the back of my mind. Again, I made sure I was never in a position to be close enough to hom to risk being victimized. But I never talked to anyone else about what I had heard, again not wanting to believe it could be true.
Eventually, after hearing many similar stories, I quit doubting.
Today, I say shame on me for ignoring those nagging doubts. I've learned a lot about what people are capable of doing to one another since those days.
With lcm, it was pretty much the same to me, until I got m & a'd over supposedly being lesbian and allowing my son to be homosexual.
I said it before, that's where they blew it with me. You never really know another's heart unless they choose to reveal it to you, but you do know your own. And I knew I wasn't a lesbian.
Pretty much up until then, I didn't want to believe evil of who I thought was the MOG, so I pretty much pushed those thoughts away.
Another thing - when someone is sexually molested, usually they go into a sort of denial. It's an unbelievable situation to find yourself in.
When it's vpw or lcm and the victim was "just a believer," how horribly intimidating it would have been to confront.
I personally don't understand how anyone could convince me that it would be okay with God for me to have sex with a married man of God, but then, my NBW friends that saw me right before I entered the way family corps could not understand my thinking at that time.
I can't say how I would have handled any of those situations that those ladies were confronted with. I just thank God it wasn't me. And I pray for their total healing.
I do believe every woman that said she was sexually abused by a leader in twi really was. I do not believe that anyone would ever make up a story like that.
I just really believe them to be telling the truth with every fiber of my being.
No offense to you personally, but it hurts my heart to read anyone doubt any of the victims, especially after so much has been revealed over these last few years.
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Radar OReilly
WG you raise a very good point, why DIDN'T women speak up at the time of being assaulted, or at least soon after? I can't really speak to EXACT SPECIFICS and TRUE motivations of these women but I have given this much thought over the past few years and here I go:
First I want to say that I am MUCH more familiar with LCM and his activities and the time frame AFTER 1982 as that is when I went into residence in the corps. Upon graduating on July 6, 1985 I went directly on staff at HQ and was there until August 19th 1994.
Many women that have been spiritually & physically abused were completely "disabled" emotionally. Just like with any other rape victim...back in the 70s and 80s they still believed that MAYBE, somehow, some way....they could have personally brought it all on themselves. In 1978 I was VIOLENTLY raped by a guy in my twig that was out on prison furlough...and the then limb coordinator REFUSED to LET me report it to the police because it would look bad on the ministry. I was barely 18....and what the heck did I know?
I don't remember the public sentiment beginning to change to realize the truth about assault and rape until that Jodie Foster movie, "The Accused." We as a society are just now beginning to realize that NO MEANS NO, and that there are boundries that should NEVER be crossed such as ministers to their flock.
There were plenty of women that spoke up, and as illustrated in HopeR's post the top poobahs were completely rehearsed in the company - line damage control. The women who spoke up were immediately labeled as possessed, anything they spoke as lies from the pit of hell, and anyone that listened to them were all "thrown under the bus" with them. The women that spoke up were discredited and marked with a scarlet letter.
Over the last 30 years there have been plenty of lawsuits of all kinds filed against twi. Most of them were very quietly and privately settled, some very early on. Twi was careful to let only a select few even know about them.
I firmly believe that the reason the Allens and JKB were able to take twi to the mat with their lawsuits is because both of the husbands of these victims were solidly behind their wives.
In addition we can't underestimate the fact the Ex-Twi(P Allen) is a very smart man that understood the power the internet held for publishing information. Waydale did exactly what he intended for it to do.....give an insider's look at twi workings and the board of trustees. The internet allowed THOUSANDS of disenfranchised pfal grads to come together and compare notes, gain strength, increase in knowledge and GAIN POWER THROUGH UNITY.
I am sorry this post is so long.....I try not to write novelettes any more but this subject is important to me.
ROR
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Sunesis
When I realized years ago that VPW had a woman in every port and the sex was much more prevalent than could really be imagined, that VP had been abusing TWIers as far back as when he first visited us "Groovy Christians" in Rye, New York where he had relations with at least one in particular 16 year old that I know of, it makes me sick.
Reading the article, I particularly liked the phrase that no one else in the parish is spiritual enough to handle it! Boy, where have we heard that one?? In fact, every reason given in that article I have heard at some time or other.
When VPW came on to me graphically and lewdly, he told me a "secret" as to why he had sex with the girls and not his wife. I had to keep it lockbox and not tell a soul. Later, I heard he told this same "secret" to other girls. Also, those of you who never knew anything was going on, well, VPW was very careful who he picked - the vulnerable, those who wouldn't tell. Read the article. How these pastors almost have "psychic" ability, is how one parishoner put it, as to who to pick.
And women did speak up. I know a woman in the first family corps who was very angry when VP came on to her and had been doing it to others. She was immediately thrown out and her name slandered, even in our town where she was from. She had "tripped out and was possessed." The standard line they gave. Any woman who spoke up was out - quick.
The rest, some even proud to be part of VPW's "secret club" never discussed it with the "uninitiated" or those not "spiritualy mature" enough to handle it.
VPW was a predator, pure and simple.
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oldiesman
One of the major premises of the soul stealing article seems to be the following:
Says who? Would it be at least a possibility that the pastor is having sexual relations because he's horny?
I don't doubt there are some cases like this, but I'd like to see the definitive proof that every sexual relation of a pastor/perishioner is about power and control.
What about the woman? what if she willingly wants it?
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