While this would be a hard case to prove, I don't think it is insane, the Peelers just have some big ba!!s to be sueing.
The majority of us here believed that we were brainwashed to some extent. If not brainwashed then pressured to a great degree. Oldies and those like you obviously disagree. I think over the years though, even you Oldies, has realised that what you experrienced and what others experienced are two totally different things. It also sounds like you left before the ABS, pluality giving teachings got very loud and spitful.
Before I left, I stopped giving. On the day of my departure, when my FC's were "reproving" me, ABS was one of the things brought up. I came to realise that giving anything, at that time, was beyond my need.
To say it was voluntary when they teach it as if it is one of the umbrellas protecting you from all evil and they keep track of what everyone gives and when you start lagging they confront you, is a joke. It would just be hard to prove the point in which you changed from freely giving to being pressured to give. That will be their problem, imo. Documenting reproof sessions will be hard.
Oldies, I love your smiley. It reminds me of someone's definition of giving to God: "Just throw the money into the air, and whatever He catches, He can keep!"
Yeah, I remember when we left twi, that my husband didn`t tithe.
Due to twi teaching, I was absolutely terrified of the consequences.
I felt so trapped.
According to twi, our family would suffer death and destruction for not adhering to that *principle*.
According to twi, the children and I would suffer the same if I disobeyed the head of the household and tried to tithe in secret.
I was really angry with him for what I viewed as putting us all at risk.
I remember blaming my husband when my mare died due to complications while giving birth....because he hadn`t found a place to tithe after we left twi...(we were actually giving ...it just wasn`t technically a tithe)
I thought that it was so unfair. God was going to punish me no matter what I did ....
Twi siad that if we didn`t tithe to them that God couldn`t protect us.
If we did tithe, God would open he windows of heaven....I was always afraid not to tithe.
I think it was pretty dishonest for them to make themselves the recipient of our *protection money*
Yes........ what everyone post's here regarding the "no tithe... no protection... blessing... hedge" call it what you will. And the peeler's can supeana (sp) every single SNS tape, teaching tape of any kind IF THEY CHOOSE!!!
They can also sup. former "followers of the way" that regurgitated LCM's spittle in home fellowships and other places. As attested to in these forum's the "brainwashing" was very deep and thorough. Not only concerning finances but in all other areas as well. Dot Matrix, an intellegent woman, when I asked her why she didn't leave twi sooner than she did, replied that she literally feared for her life, consequences etc. So this case may not seem as hopeless as some think.
On one hand; participants "gave freely". On the other hand; participants were phycologically conditioned objectively (so and so wasn't titheing so he lost his job, his house burned down, and his car was stolen) and subjectivly, everything spoken every time LCM opened his mouth about ABS.
So this is not hands down, open and shut. They do have a case against twi and I hope they win big. It's not like twi will be able to show abs went to any good work in the commumity!! At least the local baptists have a meeting place and staff in my neighborhood if I wanna go for a service! To my knowledge twi won't be able to name ONE thing done by HQ on a local level to help even ONE "follower of the way", or follower of ____________ (fill it in). ABS to twi was ALWAYS a one way ride.
I seem to remember in the OT God said "bring the tithes and offerings ... that there may be meat in my storehouse" NO ???? well somebody ate that meat and it wasn't just the priests.
Points well taken Al. If the Peeler's DO win this case, it will open the doors for thousands and thousands more. In other words, this COULD be the financial ruin of twi. Pretending to be a "church" and hiding their "non-profit" revenue under the umbrella of Christian service could end up being their downfall. In my opinion they should not be allowd to have a non-profit tax status as churches do. They are a business whose main purpose is generating revenue so that they can continue to live a life of ease and priviledge.
Twi's teachings on ABS is not unlike the "teachings" of the mafia, where someone would pay you a visit, reminding you that if you didn't pay the protection money "something bad" might happen to you. Interesting to note that there is no mention in the bible of Christians ever being instructed to tithe. Of course, that's why twi had had to go to the book of Malachi to justify their extortion. Just before I left twi, I was confronted by a twi clergy asking me why I quit tithing. I told him that I could not find a Levitical priest to give my money to. He had no idea how to answer me.
Well there was the infamous LCM saying "God won't even spit in your direction" which was used specifically in reference to tithing/abundant sharing. ABS was something that was brought up at every Twig I went to and in the early 80s , there was even more pressure to "do the right thing" and pony up the cash. Anyone who didn't experience pressure to ABS wasn't in TWI or maybe it was the one in the mirror/alter-universe where it might have been a decent organization.
Extortion is a criminal offense, which occurs when a person obtains money, behaviour, or other goods and/or services from another by wrongfully threatening or inflicting harm to his person, reputation, or property. Euphemistically, refraining from doing harm is sometimes called protection.
Blackmail is one kind of extortion -- specifically, extortion by threatening another's reputation with the disclosure of incriminating statements (true or false) about him. Even if it is not criminal to disclose the information, it constitutes extortion to demand money or other consideration not to disclose it. [1] (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/b105.htm)
Extortion is distinguished from robbery. In robbery, the offender steals goods from the victim whilst threatening him with force. In extortion, the victim willingly turns the goods over to avoid a threatened violence or other harm.
The term extortion is often used metaphorically to refer to usury or to price-gouging, though neither is legally considered extortion.
United State Federal Definition of Extortion is: The term "extortion" means the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right.
I have known R** Peeler since we were students together at the University of North Carolina. If any of you knew what I know about his greediness of the past that cost him his first marriage, led to the (in her own words) saying by his older daughter, "my dad disowned us," and the screwing over of a man to whom he owed his literal life ... you would not want him to win one single penny. He has tried every scheme in the book to get money, and the major thing missing from the picture is personal responsibility for his mistakes on his part, fueled by a lust for money despite having more money than most folks will have in a lifetime.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. I do not in any way condone the actions of The Way, but nothing happened to the Peelers that did not happen to all the rest of us who gave money to the Way over the years ... we were blessed, we gave, now we wish we had the money back.
I don't often agree with oldiesman, but on this I must: this lawsuit is insane and frivolous.
OK guys, when I gave I believed it was to God however, I found out later it is not that at all. Misrepresentation is used freely when lawsuits arise.
I'm all for the Peelers..I'm sure they did give freely and from their hearts also believing, but, in reality, they were being Funked Up with the TWI pig doo doo.
I also believe that the TWI attorneys will continue to move the case to be better prepared because of the number of cases which have not been filed taking issue such as this case.
If an attorney didn't think he/she had a case...Why bother? I believe the depositions of lie after lie, by TWI, may have something to do with it.
My opinion only...can't wait to go and hear the case in September. Chatt. is a neat town and full of fun. Just 90 miles from me.
Hey oldies...who's the "we" you're talking about? Are you the official spokesman here, representing others? I suggest that you speak for yourself.
Groucho, ha! "we" means me and every other person who freely gave ABS money to twi.
Even when they taught that God wouldn't protect you if you don't tithe, it was still up to you to prove it in your life. The choice was yours.
I concede I do not speak for those who were forced to give ABS money at gunpoint.
quote:
It would just be hard to prove the point in which you changed from freely giving to being pressured to give. That will be their problem, imo. Documenting reproof sessions will be hard.
Lindyhopper, actually I think it might be fairly easy to prove. I cannot state this for a certainty because I wasn't there, but I heard that at one point in twi-2, twi-2 was pressuring folks to tithe because it is a "household" and they stand together and do the same thing and why wouldn't you want to tithe since this is the prevailing word in God's ministry ? and they kept track and made sure you did. Correct? Well at that point, if you didn't tithe, as far as I know they would ask you to leave. There could be no other way, unless they extract the money from you forcibly.
So at the point anybody was really "pressured" to give money, and they refused, they were asked to leave (this was 1990's and beyond). So how do the Peelers get their money back?
"Even when they taught that God wouldn't protect you if you don't tithe, it was still up to you to prove it in your life. The choice was yours."
I agree.
"I concede I do not speak for those who were forced to give ABS money at gunpoint."
Ouch would be bad.
quote:
It would just be hard to prove the point in which you changed from freely giving to being pressured to give. That will be their problem, imo. Documenting reproof sessions will be hard.
"Lindyhopper, actually I think it might be fairly easy to prove. I cannot state this for a certainty because I wasn't there, but I heard that at one point in twi-2, twi-2 was pressuring folks to tithe because ..."
I was taught to tithe in the Baptist church. First with passing the offering plate three times during each service. Than later after I was baptised, an annual form had to be filled out, 'pledging' how much I would give during the coming year.
I was just a kid, but the church kept track and if you began to fall behind in your pledge, they contacted you and pressured you to remember your tithe.
Tithing was also taught constantly in the Methodist hcurch that I shifted to.
While I have never been a member of a Cathlic church, it is my understanding that tithing is taught, encouraged and expected even there.
Tithing is NOT un-usual. Teaching the 'tithe' is NOT unusual, expecting members to tithe is not unusual. Pressuring members to tithe is NOT unusual.
Churches run a business. One of my renters NOW, is a catholic, and she attends mass and she is expected to tithe and she gets pressure when she does not tithe.
A church has a 'bottom-line' how much money they need to come into their coffers each week, to keep their programs running. That is what they do.
"it is a "household" and they stand together and do the same thing and why wouldn't you want to tithe since this is the prevailing word in God's ministry ?"
This arguement could be heard at ANY church of ANY denomination ANYWHERE in the world. [except of course in manyu areas the arguement would be in other languages]
Dunno about guns and threats but I do know that my "standing" within TWI was explained to me as a direct function of my attendance at Way events AND the "quality" of ABS efforts. A lapse in either area, I was told in no uncertain terms - by several people in positions of leadership , would jeopardize my fellowship with God. This was around 1975.
The above experience is far from unique - in fact it was the rule to the extent that many of us in my area (and others to which I travelled) used to remark that it cost money to be in TWI. Little did we relaize how prophetic these comments were. Later I recall explaining to a visiting Corps guy that I was going to take some time off to have some surgery. He recommended that I read "Christians Should Be Prosperous" and "apply the principles set forth" and I would receive healing which would eliminate the need for the surgery. This was around 77.
Its most odd that the so called "law of believing" in PFAL was touted as the way to get deliverance yet within months of taking that class , I noticed that discussions on believing and deliverance were always closely tied in with references to ABS activity. Believing for deliverance wasn't sufficient - you had to be tithing and had to be "in fellowship". The latter two were Way approved concepts of course. In my Way history , even at my earliest Twigs there were *always* requests for financial support. The "horn of plenty" at the Twig was always emphasized as being key to helping with getting the "word over the world" and that those who are hesistant to give should continue to fellowship to understand that money given to mainstream churches or charitable organizations (cancer reserch, salvation army, etc) was a "waste".
As I travelled around and visited different Twigs in different lcoales there was variation in terms of style meaning that some TCs, BCs, LCs, used the "hard sell" whereas others kept it low key but references to ABS were consistently made even over and above discussions on the welfare of members in the area. In after Twig talks if someone's problem emerged in the course of conversation , the ABS issue was frequently referenced as a possible cause of the misfortune. TWI has always promoted ABS with varying degress of intensity though if you were't giving you heard about it and it wasn't always in a nice tone. There were also suggestions that you would get sick and/or that the adversary could drive whole into your "hedge of protection". Some people who didn't give were invited to leave Twig until they could make "a committment" in this area. No. Don't belive it if someone tells you that TWI I was free from this type of thing. It wasn't - not by a long shot.
In all the churches I've attended before and after my Way Daze, I've *never* been told that my problems were a result of my lack if tithing or that not tithing would allow the adversary into my life or that the reason a relative fell gravely ill was because I wasn't "giving God his due". I only heard stuff like this while in TWI and *never* in
Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Baptist, Methodist, or Catholic churces. Not one ! In
TWI I heard it more times than I can remeber.
In TWI, tithing is a mortgage payment on
your health and "fellowship" whereas tithing in mainstream churches supports a very real physcial infrastructure (a building, lights, heat, staff) and regular operations and community outreach programs (feeding the indigent, teaching English classes, etc). What does TWI have to support ? HQ staff who live in luxury ? Seems to me that the "home fellowship" concert meant that all that ABS was pure gravy for HQ types since NONE of that dough went to subsidize apartment rent or support the people who were running the Twigs anyway.
Well, they put faithfully abundant sharing - not tithing, but abundant sharing - as a requirement for many of their classes and all the programs they have.
I have tapes of craiggers screaming his head off about people not giving and having bad things happen to them. It's emotional and spiritual blackmail, imo.
Toad, thanks for sharing what you know and I'd love to know more. I do think what he is suing about is a very specific incident and not necessarily the entire time he was in. I'm not one for supporting evil people, but in this case he seems to be the lesser of the two evils and I'd love to see him take the TWIts for a bundle.
Well, they put faithfully abundant sharing - not tithing, but abundant sharing - as a requirement for many of their classes and all the programs they have.
Belle, I've been out of TWI for a long time. My comments related to both concepts - "tithing" and "abundant sharing" the latter of which is a Way bred concept. In fact , the reality that TWI makes a distinction between the two only magnifies their greed.
When I first became serious about TWI , the concept of "tithing" was acknowledged under that word. No one corrected/reproved me for employing that terminology. Over time the "abdundant sharing" idea emerged and soon there was the total expectation that any Wayfer would gladly and willingly conform to Way-taught ideas about financial contributions.
My point is that , under any name, tithing or abdundant sharing, TWI leadership taught that your personal "abundance" (or lack thereof) was a direct function of your "giving". I heard this idea taught as far back as 74-75 which should counter the idea that "TWI 1" was immune from this concept.
It was nothing but (the love of money) that twi wanted and that was why the pressure was there. Who wants to bet that lcm's abundant sharing was built into his salary even though everything was given to him on a platter.
From 1988-December 1, 1999 when I finally left twi....it was COMMON, COMMON, COMMON for it to be taught from the President of twi on down that if you didn't at the minimum tithe, and in all practicality....abundantly share, you were opening yourself up to the devil.
For example, women that miscarried.....the leadership went back and reviewed their abundant sharing records. People that developed serious medical conditions...same thing, their abs was reviewed and "discussed" with them.
Marital problems? abs more. Difficulty with children? abs more. One of my very best friends was 44 and newly married, to a man much younger than herself, she was not able to conceive...they did invitro 3 times.....THAT WAS COMPLETELY A RESULT of not abundantly sharing 20%.
Some friends of mine in North Carolina, their 19 year old daughter was a student at Chapel Hill. She left twi, her parents were counseled to take out a LIFE INSURANCE POLICY ON HER LIFE, because she was not abundant sharing and if something happened to her, ie car accident, they would be stuck paying her college loans.
Tell me situations like that ARENT SCARIER than being forced to tithe while facing a 357.
The worst I ever heard or read was that you owed God the tithe and if you didn't pay, you wouldn't prosper. But, that's still up to the individual to try it to see if it works or not.
Well.......the worst I ever heard was in a corps meeting in 1997.
LCM was teaching from Acts.....every household believer should aspire to PLURALITY GIVING. Sidestepping lots of issues and first century culture, lcm believed that it was the duty of every believer to give ALL plurality (money) to twi.
Here's an example: Say a couple makes $50,000 a year and can live on $30,000 a year. Then, according to this plurality giving concept, the rest would (and SHOULD) be handed over the twi. According to lcm's teaching, THAT was honest before God.
Look at how the number climb!!!
tithe of $50,000 = $5,000
ABS of $50,000 = $7,500
Pl. giving of $50,000 = $20,000
P.S. I left shortly after this, so am not sure it grabbed hold. But this was WHAT lcm was striving to gain.
I respect what Johnny Lingo is saying...however, the same is not true for me. At first, I gave to God from the heart...but it didn't take long for me to cop an attitude when twi began pressuring me into giving them what I OWED! It instantly became a case of giving grudgingly and out of necessity...and it also became clear to me that what I had designated for God, was being hijacked by a few cult leaders.
Well Groucho, when I was kicked out of TWI, the pressure to ABS and plurality giving and all of this crap was only really beginning to come on as a mandate, and was something I began to seriously consider as "off" the Word.
And so, as I was getting caught up in it and began to give out of wrong motives (like you said of yourself-same things with me), I was shortly there after kicked out into the cold. Or should I say; "kicked out of the cave and left to be blinking in the blinding sunlight like an unearthed mole?" Yeah, I like that better. Mmm, the warmth!
But for me, what was done was done, and for the most part tried to give out of a cheerful heart, and so, may their dishonesty be upon their own heads...
Sooooooo even though the "plantiff" may be as greedy as twi el. al. I think he may very well have a case. Especially with the current leaning of our courts vis a vis religious interferrence into peoples' lives.
When twi's "doctrine" concerning titheing and "abundant sharing" is examined in conjunction with the teachings regarding "results" one reaps when titheing/or not..... I don't see how a reasonable person would not side with plaintiff.
I use the word "teaching" liberally. If I, as an outsider heard lcm's RANTS about the evils befalling those who, in his judgement, weren't giving enough, I would think he was INSANE as well as using a form of extortion to milk these poor fools for every dime they had.
I think twi SHOULD absolutely be held accountable for this robbery. I also AM a-mazed they (BOT) weren't investigated/indited for "an on going criminal conspiricy" with the massive sexual abuse by LCM, and cover-up by the BOT. Rosie is one very lucky person that the Ohio/U.S. attorney general has better things to do than come after her.
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lindyhopper
Yeah, what Oak said!
While this would be a hard case to prove, I don't think it is insane, the Peelers just have some big ba!!s to be sueing.
The majority of us here believed that we were brainwashed to some extent. If not brainwashed then pressured to a great degree. Oldies and those like you obviously disagree. I think over the years though, even you Oldies, has realised that what you experrienced and what others experienced are two totally different things. It also sounds like you left before the ABS, pluality giving teachings got very loud and spitful.
Before I left, I stopped giving. On the day of my departure, when my FC's were "reproving" me, ABS was one of the things brought up. I came to realise that giving anything, at that time, was beyond my need.
To say it was voluntary when they teach it as if it is one of the umbrellas protecting you from all evil and they keep track of what everyone gives and when you start lagging they confront you, is a joke. It would just be hard to prove the point in which you changed from freely giving to being pressured to give. That will be their problem, imo. Documenting reproof sessions will be hard.
But insane? not at all.
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shazdancer
Oldies, I love your smiley. It reminds me of someone's definition of giving to God: "Just throw the money into the air, and whatever He catches, He can keep!"
Shaz
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rascal
Yeah, I remember when we left twi, that my husband didn`t tithe.
Due to twi teaching, I was absolutely terrified of the consequences.
I felt so trapped.
According to twi, our family would suffer death and destruction for not adhering to that *principle*.
According to twi, the children and I would suffer the same if I disobeyed the head of the household and tried to tithe in secret.
I was really angry with him for what I viewed as putting us all at risk.
I remember blaming my husband when my mare died due to complications while giving birth....because he hadn`t found a place to tithe after we left twi...(we were actually giving ...it just wasn`t technically a tithe)
I thought that it was so unfair. God was going to punish me no matter what I did ....
Twi siad that if we didn`t tithe to them that God couldn`t protect us.
If we did tithe, God would open he windows of heaven....I was always afraid not to tithe.
I think it was pretty dishonest for them to make themselves the recipient of our *protection money*
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Al Poole
Yes........ what everyone post's here regarding the "no tithe... no protection... blessing... hedge" call it what you will. And the peeler's can supeana (sp) every single SNS tape, teaching tape of any kind IF THEY CHOOSE!!!
They can also sup. former "followers of the way" that regurgitated LCM's spittle in home fellowships and other places. As attested to in these forum's the "brainwashing" was very deep and thorough. Not only concerning finances but in all other areas as well. Dot Matrix, an intellegent woman, when I asked her why she didn't leave twi sooner than she did, replied that she literally feared for her life, consequences etc. So this case may not seem as hopeless as some think.
On one hand; participants "gave freely". On the other hand; participants were phycologically conditioned objectively (so and so wasn't titheing so he lost his job, his house burned down, and his car was stolen) and subjectivly, everything spoken every time LCM opened his mouth about ABS.
So this is not hands down, open and shut. They do have a case against twi and I hope they win big. It's not like twi will be able to show abs went to any good work in the commumity!! At least the local baptists have a meeting place and staff in my neighborhood if I wanna go for a service! To my knowledge twi won't be able to name ONE thing done by HQ on a local level to help even ONE "follower of the way", or follower of ____________ (fill it in). ABS to twi was ALWAYS a one way ride.
I seem to remember in the OT God said "bring the tithes and offerings ... that there may be meat in my storehouse" NO ???? well somebody ate that meat and it wasn't just the priests.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Points well taken Al. If the Peeler's DO win this case, it will open the doors for thousands and thousands more. In other words, this COULD be the financial ruin of twi. Pretending to be a "church" and hiding their "non-profit" revenue under the umbrella of Christian service could end up being their downfall. In my opinion they should not be allowd to have a non-profit tax status as churches do. They are a business whose main purpose is generating revenue so that they can continue to live a life of ease and priviledge.
Twi's teachings on ABS is not unlike the "teachings" of the mafia, where someone would pay you a visit, reminding you that if you didn't pay the protection money "something bad" might happen to you. Interesting to note that there is no mention in the bible of Christians ever being instructed to tithe. Of course, that's why twi had had to go to the book of Malachi to justify their extortion. Just before I left twi, I was confronted by a twi clergy asking me why I quit tithing. I told him that I could not find a Levitical priest to give my money to. He had no idea how to answer me.
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diazbro
Well there was the infamous LCM saying "God won't even spit in your direction" which was used specifically in reference to tithing/abundant sharing. ABS was something that was brought up at every Twig I went to and in the early 80s , there was even more pressure to "do the right thing" and pony up the cash. Anyone who didn't experience pressure to ABS wasn't in TWI or maybe it was the one in the mirror/alter-universe where it might have been a decent organization.
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vickles
From what I understand there is a lot of money that this couple gave. A lot more than I probably will see in my lifetime.
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LooKout
Just to help this topic along......
LooKout
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ToadFriend
I have known R** Peeler since we were students together at the University of North Carolina. If any of you knew what I know about his greediness of the past that cost him his first marriage, led to the (in her own words) saying by his older daughter, "my dad disowned us," and the screwing over of a man to whom he owed his literal life ... you would not want him to win one single penny. He has tried every scheme in the book to get money, and the major thing missing from the picture is personal responsibility for his mistakes on his part, fueled by a lust for money despite having more money than most folks will have in a lifetime.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. I do not in any way condone the actions of The Way, but nothing happened to the Peelers that did not happen to all the rest of us who gave money to the Way over the years ... we were blessed, we gave, now we wish we had the money back.
I don't often agree with oldiesman, but on this I must: this lawsuit is insane and frivolous.
Friend of the Toad,
but not of the Greedy
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sadie
OK guys, when I gave I believed it was to God however, I found out later it is not that at all. Misrepresentation is used freely when lawsuits arise.
I'm all for the Peelers..I'm sure they did give freely and from their hearts also believing, but, in reality, they were being Funked Up with the TWI pig doo doo.
I also believe that the TWI attorneys will continue to move the case to be better prepared because of the number of cases which have not been filed taking issue such as this case.
If an attorney didn't think he/she had a case...Why bother? I believe the depositions of lie after lie, by TWI, may have something to do with it.
My opinion only...can't wait to go and hear the case in September. Chatt. is a neat town and full of fun. Just 90 miles from me.
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Steve!
Sadie, check your Private Topics, please!
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oldiesman
Groucho, ha! "we" means me and every other person who freely gave ABS money to twi.
Even when they taught that God wouldn't protect you if you don't tithe, it was still up to you to prove it in your life. The choice was yours.
I concede I do not speak for those who were forced to give ABS money at gunpoint.
Lindyhopper, actually I think it might be fairly easy to prove. I cannot state this for a certainty because I wasn't there, but I heard that at one point in twi-2, twi-2 was pressuring folks to tithe because it is a "household" and they stand together and do the same thing and why wouldn't you want to tithe since this is the prevailing word in God's ministry ? and they kept track and made sure you did. Correct? Well at that point, if you didn't tithe, as far as I know they would ask you to leave. There could be no other way, unless they extract the money from you forcibly.So at the point anybody was really "pressured" to give money, and they refused, they were asked to leave (this was 1990's and beyond). So how do the Peelers get their money back?
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Galen
oldiesman:
"Even when they taught that God wouldn't protect you if you don't tithe, it was still up to you to prove it in your life. The choice was yours."
I agree.
"I concede I do not speak for those who were forced to give ABS money at gunpoint."
Ouch would be bad.
"Lindyhopper, actually I think it might be fairly easy to prove. I cannot state this for a certainty because I wasn't there, but I heard that at one point in twi-2, twi-2 was pressuring folks to tithe because ..."
I was taught to tithe in the Baptist church. First with passing the offering plate three times during each service. Than later after I was baptised, an annual form had to be filled out, 'pledging' how much I would give during the coming year.
I was just a kid, but the church kept track and if you began to fall behind in your pledge, they contacted you and pressured you to remember your tithe.
Tithing was also taught constantly in the Methodist hcurch that I shifted to.
While I have never been a member of a Cathlic church, it is my understanding that tithing is taught, encouraged and expected even there.
Tithing is NOT un-usual. Teaching the 'tithe' is NOT unusual, expecting members to tithe is not unusual. Pressuring members to tithe is NOT unusual.
Churches run a business. One of my renters NOW, is a catholic, and she attends mass and she is expected to tithe and she gets pressure when she does not tithe.
A church has a 'bottom-line' how much money they need to come into their coffers each week, to keep their programs running. That is what they do.
"it is a "household" and they stand together and do the same thing and why wouldn't you want to tithe since this is the prevailing word in God's ministry ?"
This arguement could be heard at ANY church of ANY denomination ANYWHERE in the world. [except of course in manyu areas the arguement would be in other languages]
"... and they kept track and made sure you did."
Again many churchs do this.
:-)
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oldiesman
Thanks Galen.
Tithing brings wings to life.
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diazbro
Dunno about guns and threats but I do know that my "standing" within TWI was explained to me as a direct function of my attendance at Way events AND the "quality" of ABS efforts. A lapse in either area, I was told in no uncertain terms - by several people in positions of leadership , would jeopardize my fellowship with God. This was around 1975.
The above experience is far from unique - in fact it was the rule to the extent that many of us in my area (and others to which I travelled) used to remark that it cost money to be in TWI. Little did we relaize how prophetic these comments were. Later I recall explaining to a visiting Corps guy that I was going to take some time off to have some surgery. He recommended that I read "Christians Should Be Prosperous" and "apply the principles set forth" and I would receive healing which would eliminate the need for the surgery. This was around 77.
Its most odd that the so called "law of believing" in PFAL was touted as the way to get deliverance yet within months of taking that class , I noticed that discussions on believing and deliverance were always closely tied in with references to ABS activity. Believing for deliverance wasn't sufficient - you had to be tithing and had to be "in fellowship". The latter two were Way approved concepts of course. In my Way history , even at my earliest Twigs there were *always* requests for financial support. The "horn of plenty" at the Twig was always emphasized as being key to helping with getting the "word over the world" and that those who are hesistant to give should continue to fellowship to understand that money given to mainstream churches or charitable organizations (cancer reserch, salvation army, etc) was a "waste".
As I travelled around and visited different Twigs in different lcoales there was variation in terms of style meaning that some TCs, BCs, LCs, used the "hard sell" whereas others kept it low key but references to ABS were consistently made even over and above discussions on the welfare of members in the area. In after Twig talks if someone's problem emerged in the course of conversation , the ABS issue was frequently referenced as a possible cause of the misfortune. TWI has always promoted ABS with varying degress of intensity though if you were't giving you heard about it and it wasn't always in a nice tone. There were also suggestions that you would get sick and/or that the adversary could drive whole into your "hedge of protection". Some people who didn't give were invited to leave Twig until they could make "a committment" in this area. No. Don't belive it if someone tells you that TWI I was free from this type of thing. It wasn't - not by a long shot.
In all the churches I've attended before and after my Way Daze, I've *never* been told that my problems were a result of my lack if tithing or that not tithing would allow the adversary into my life or that the reason a relative fell gravely ill was because I wasn't "giving God his due". I only heard stuff like this while in TWI and *never* in
Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Baptist, Methodist, or Catholic churces. Not one ! In
TWI I heard it more times than I can remeber.
In TWI, tithing is a mortgage payment on
your health and "fellowship" whereas tithing in mainstream churches supports a very real physcial infrastructure (a building, lights, heat, staff) and regular operations and community outreach programs (feeding the indigent, teaching English classes, etc). What does TWI have to support ? HQ staff who live in luxury ? Seems to me that the "home fellowship" concert meant that all that ABS was pure gravy for HQ types since NONE of that dough went to subsidize apartment rent or support the people who were running the Twigs anyway.
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Belle
Well, they put faithfully abundant sharing - not tithing, but abundant sharing - as a requirement for many of their classes and all the programs they have.
I have tapes of craiggers screaming his head off about people not giving and having bad things happen to them. It's emotional and spiritual blackmail, imo.
Toad, thanks for sharing what you know and I'd love to know more. I do think what he is suing about is a very specific incident and not necessarily the entire time he was in. I'm not one for supporting evil people, but in this case he seems to be the lesser of the two evils and I'd love to see him take the TWIts for a bundle.
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diazbro
Belle, I've been out of TWI for a long time. My comments related to both concepts - "tithing" and "abundant sharing" the latter of which is a Way bred concept. In fact , the reality that TWI makes a distinction between the two only magnifies their greed.
When I first became serious about TWI , the concept of "tithing" was acknowledged under that word. No one corrected/reproved me for employing that terminology. Over time the "abdundant sharing" idea emerged and soon there was the total expectation that any Wayfer would gladly and willingly conform to Way-taught ideas about financial contributions.
My point is that , under any name, tithing or abdundant sharing, TWI leadership taught that your personal "abundance" (or lack thereof) was a direct function of your "giving". I heard this idea taught as far back as 74-75 which should counter the idea that "TWI 1" was immune from this concept.
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justloafing
It was nothing but (the love of money) that twi wanted and that was why the pressure was there. Who wants to bet that lcm's abundant sharing was built into his salary even though everything was given to him on a platter.
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Radar OReilly
From 1988-December 1, 1999 when I finally left twi....it was COMMON, COMMON, COMMON for it to be taught from the President of twi on down that if you didn't at the minimum tithe, and in all practicality....abundantly share, you were opening yourself up to the devil.
For example, women that miscarried.....the leadership went back and reviewed their abundant sharing records. People that developed serious medical conditions...same thing, their abs was reviewed and "discussed" with them.
Marital problems? abs more. Difficulty with children? abs more. One of my very best friends was 44 and newly married, to a man much younger than herself, she was not able to conceive...they did invitro 3 times.....THAT WAS COMPLETELY A RESULT of not abundantly sharing 20%.
Some friends of mine in North Carolina, their 19 year old daughter was a student at Chapel Hill. She left twi, her parents were counseled to take out a LIFE INSURANCE POLICY ON HER LIFE, because she was not abundant sharing and if something happened to her, ie car accident, they would be stuck paying her college loans.
Tell me situations like that ARENT SCARIER than being forced to tithe while facing a 357.
Radar
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skyrider
Well.......the worst I ever heard was in a corps meeting in 1997.
LCM was teaching from Acts.....every household believer should aspire to PLURALITY GIVING. Sidestepping lots of issues and first century culture, lcm believed that it was the duty of every believer to give ALL plurality (money) to twi.
Here's an example: Say a couple makes $50,000 a year and can live on $30,000 a year. Then, according to this plurality giving concept, the rest would (and SHOULD) be handed over the twi. According to lcm's teaching, THAT was honest before God.
Look at how the number climb!!!
tithe of $50,000 = $5,000
ABS of $50,000 = $7,500
Pl. giving of $50,000 = $20,000
P.S. I left shortly after this, so am not sure it grabbed hold. But this was WHAT lcm was striving to gain.
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Radar OReilly
Sky,
Yeppie, I remember that teaching.
ror
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J0nny Ling0
Groucho, you said;
Well Groucho, when I was kicked out of TWI, the pressure to ABS and plurality giving and all of this crap was only really beginning to come on as a mandate, and was something I began to seriously consider as "off" the Word.
And so, as I was getting caught up in it and began to give out of wrong motives (like you said of yourself-same things with me), I was shortly there after kicked out into the cold. Or should I say; "kicked out of the cave and left to be blinking in the blinding sunlight like an unearthed mole?" Yeah, I like that better. Mmm, the warmth!
But for me, what was done was done, and for the most part tried to give out of a cheerful heart, and so, may their dishonesty be upon their own heads...
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Al Poole
Sooooooo even though the "plantiff" may be as greedy as twi el. al. I think he may very well have a case. Especially with the current leaning of our courts vis a vis religious interferrence into peoples' lives.
When twi's "doctrine" concerning titheing and "abundant sharing" is examined in conjunction with the teachings regarding "results" one reaps when titheing/or not..... I don't see how a reasonable person would not side with plaintiff.
I use the word "teaching" liberally. If I, as an outsider heard lcm's RANTS about the evils befalling those who, in his judgement, weren't giving enough, I would think he was INSANE as well as using a form of extortion to milk these poor fools for every dime they had.
I think twi SHOULD absolutely be held accountable for this robbery. I also AM a-mazed they (BOT) weren't investigated/indited for "an on going criminal conspiricy" with the massive sexual abuse by LCM, and cover-up by the BOT. Rosie is one very lucky person that the Ohio/U.S. attorney general has better things to do than come after her.
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Ham
well.. who knows. Maybe he's just waiting for his schedule to clear a little..
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