Certainly not... but I believe a reason to worship God and continue in the faith, comes from awe and respect for what he's done to demonstrate his grace and mercy and believing that his justice ultimately will prevail. I've been told in the catholic faith that eternal hell is part of that justice; only don't ask me to explain that.
I do have a question about atheism in general. What is it really? I thought it was not believing in the existence of a god and/or any spiritual being? If that is the case, why the "F God" to something that doesn't exist? All that really says is atheists do believe in God but hate his guts?
Regarding your first point about God's justice system as spoken of in a book called the bible. Was it really a supposedly loving father-figure God that came up with the punishment of hell or was hell
a) the invented concept of an underworld or place of punishment as described in Greek mythology by the man Homer around the 8th or 7th century BCE
b) the idea of the prophet Zoroaster (a man) who founded Zoroastrian, the religion that Influenced the children of Israel while under the Persian rule of Cyrus (a man) in the 6th century BCE
c) the continued best way to compel people to obey man-made religions?
As for your second point, as an atheist, I would say that I do hate the concept of "love me or else" just as I do when it comes to the abusive language used in any relationship here on earth. "You are only good because of me. You are unworthy, you get your worth from me. You don't deserve any goodness in your life, so any goodness you get is a gift from me - it is because of me. If you are harmed or I hurt you, it's your fault - you made me do it. You forced my hand. You made me hurt you and whatever you do, never ever leave me or else."(Quote by Seth Andrews)
Certainly not... but I believe a reason to worship God and continue in the faith, comes from awe and respect for what he's done to demonstrate his grace and mercy and believing that his justice ultimately will prevail. I've been told in the catholic faith that eternal hell is part of that justice; only don't ask me to explain that.
I do have a question about atheism in general. What is it really? I thought it was not believing in the existence of a god and/or any spiritual being? If that is the case, why the "F God" to something that doesn't exist? All that really says is atheists do believe in God but hate his guts?
I don't have to believe in Steve Urkel to despise the character.
Yes, but what is faith? Where does faith come in when it comes to her question - "My daughter’s 36 now and she’s schizophrenic and if God is going to bless me with a miracle baby then why did he give her schizophrenia – what kind of god would do that?"
You know as much as me that faith is believing... but I should have said "former faith" since she apparently lost it along the way.
I know nothing about schizophrenia... did a little AI searching but can't speak authoritatively. Scriptures promise a chance at healing with the Lord but not guaranteed (unlike that TWI hand that always fits in the glove, we know healing is not always the end result).
But first, I would do everything medically in the senses realm... medication, therapy, etc. While seeking that, continuing in prayer (and fasting) and wait for a response from God. We know God allows these things to occur -- the biggest question is why? I don't have an answer to that, but the fact that I don't doesn't stop me from continuing to have faith in him.
You don't have to believe that Steve Urkel exists to despise the character of Steve Urkel.
Isn't that what some might refer to as a strawman argument?
Not at all. It is a straight analogy.
You said "I do have a question about atheism in general. What is it really? I thought it was not believing in the existence of a god and/or any spiritual being? If that is the case, why the 'F God' to something that doesn't exist? All that really says is atheists do believe in God but hate his guts?"
The direct answer to your question is "No, one does not have to accept the existence of a fictional character to despise him."
But instead of a straight answer, I used an example. Any example of an annoying fictional character would do. Janice from Friends (Oh. My. Gawd). Jar Jar Binks. Allah. Moroni. Zeus.
When an atheist says "F-God," it is not a tacit admission that we believe God exists. Rather, it is an indication that you have imbued this fictional character with traits that are frankly contemptible.
A few years back I had a thread going called "Are you more moral than Yahweh." It looked at God's attributes and "morality" as described in the Bible and compared it to the values we hold in common today. It was not an admission that God exists and a finding that your morality is an actual improvement over his. Rather, it was a call to recognize that you don't consider him to be the arbiter of morality any more than I do.
My way was just more fun.
In short, no, the Steve Urkel comparison is not a strawman. It is a perfectly fine example of the principle that for some fictional characters, the fact that they are fictional is their only redeeming quality.
You know as much as me that faith is believing... but I should have said "former faith" since she apparently lost it along the way.
I know nothing about schizophrenia... did a little AI searching but can't speak authoritatively. Scriptures promise a chance at healing with the Lord but not guaranteed (unlike that TWI hand that always fits in the glove, we know healing is not always the end result).
But first, I would do everything medically in the senses realm... medication, therapy, etc. While seeking that, continuing in prayer (and fasting) and wait for a response from God. We know God allows these things to occur -- the biggest question is why? I don't have an answer to that, but the fact that I don't doesn't stop me from continuing to have faith in him.
You admit scriptures promise a chance at healing with the Lord but is not guaranteed (not unlike buying a lottery ticket), and thatGod allows terrible things to occur without answering the biggest question of why?
Unfortunately, you mistake Marie’s valid reasons to question, if not outright reject, those two ideas as her being “lost” and that the only correct response to being confused and hurt by a system of beliefs is to return to it – to continue to pray (and fast) and wait for a response from God.
To me, this is not healing – it’s gaslighting dressed as spiritual concern.It treats doubt as being the problem. It shames people for thinking critically instead of just "having faith." Marie wants to live her life honestly, not in an illusion. She is not lost. She is on the right path.
Certainly not... but I believe a reason to worship God and continue in the faith, comes from awe and respect for what he's done to demonstrate his grace and mercy and believing that his justice ultimately will prevail. I've been told in the catholic faith that eternal hell is part of that justice; only don't ask me to explain that.
I do have a question about atheism in general. What is it really? I thought it was not believing in the existence of a god and/or any spiritual being? If that is the case, why the "F God" to something that doesn't exist? All that really says is atheists do believe in God but hate his guts?
On 3/24/2025 at 10:42 AM, Charity said:
As for your second point, as an atheist, I would say that I do hate the concept of "love me or else" just as I do when it comes to the abusive language used in any relationship here on earth. "You are only good because of me. You are unworthy, you get your worth from me. You don't deserve any goodness in your life, so any goodness you get is a gift from me - it is because of me. If you are harmed or I hurt you, it's your fault - you made me do it. You forced my hand. You made me hurt you and whatever you do, never ever leave me or else."(Quote by Seth Andrews)
I posted the latest "prophecy" called" A Final Call Before Finality Falls on the Judged" by William Brooks in the "Spirit of Prophecy" thread. While reading it, the "love me or else" theme ran through it.
I know most Christians would not see it as "love me or else" but as "For God so loved the world that he gave..." I just don't think the latter justifies the prior.
"you lost your faith in God along the way... let me help you get it back I am willing if you want my help..."
On 3/25/2025 at 7:15 AM, oldiesman said:
You know as much as me that faith is believing... but I should have said "former faith" since she apparently lost it along the way.
On 3/26/2025 at 8:34 AM, Charity said:
You admit scriptures promise a chance at healing with the Lord but is not guaranteed (not unlike buying a lottery ticket), and thatGod allows terrible things to occur without answering the biggest question of why?
Unfortunately, you mistake Marie’s valid reasons to question, if not outright reject, those two ideas as her being “lost” and that the only correct response to being confused and hurt by a system of beliefs is to return to it – to continue to pray (and fast) and wait for a response from God.
To me, this is not healing – it’s gaslighting dressed as spiritual concern.It treats doubt as being the problem. It shames people for thinking critically instead of just "having faith." Marie wants to live her life honestly, not in an illusion. She is not lost. She is on the right path.
I owe you an apology oldiesman. When I used the word "gaslighting" in my post to you above, I was meaning that you were questioning Marie's perception of her reality. I checked this morning and its full definition is the manipulation of someone into questioning their own perception of reality. I do not find you to have been at all manipulative in your posts. I also realize that you never said Marie was lost as I said you did in my reply to you. You actually said twice that she had lost her faith. I apologize for my mistake.
I asked you for your thoughts on what you would say to Marie and you honestly gave me your answer. I do appreciate your willingness to discuss topics with me.
I think Marie did have valid reasons for her doubt and her questions because of what she shared in the video, and I so identified with her confusion about God. She was showing an interest in knowing more about atheism maybe because her son had become an atheist a few years before. Your perspective was to help her find her faith again and to me that was like inviting her back into the same system of beliefs in that there are no guarantees with God's promises and no answers as to why God allowed her daughter to get schizophrenia. Your answer was to continue praying (and fasting) and wait for a response from God. (I know that was your short answer and you probably would have suggested other things as well.)
The thing was that she had already been praying and waiting and it led to her having doubts and confusion. My perspective was that she needed to explore her doubts and continue asking questions. She had already realized that the story of Noah's flood could not logically be true. I learned a lot from listening to atheists because their knowledge is outside of what you will hear within Christian circles and biblical doctrine. I started doing research for myself and decided against the Christian beliefs I held about God, Jesus and the bible. At first I said I was losing my faith but in truth, I was letting go of it because of what I had learned.
I would have encouraged Marie to continue looking for answers and rely on rational evidence for her beliefs instead of going back to settling with "God's ways are higher than your ways so don't question why."
I owe you an apology oldiesman. When I used the word "gaslighting" in my post to you above, I was meaning that you were questioning Marie's perception of her reality. I checked this morning and its full definition is the manipulation of someone into questioning their own perception of reality. I do not find you to have been at all manipulative in your posts. I also realize that you never said Marie was lost as I said you did in my reply to you. You actually said twice that she had lost her faith. I apologize for my mistake.
Thank you so much Charity for taking the time to say all of this it's greatly appreciated.
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Charity
Regarding your first point about God's justice system as spoken of in a book called the bible. Was it really a supposedly loving father-figure God that came up with the punishment of hell or was hell
a) the invented concept of an underworld or place of punishment as described in Greek mythology by the man Homer around the 8th or 7th century BCE
b) the idea of the prophet Zoroaster (a man) who founded Zoroastrian, the religion that Influenced the children of Israel while under the Persian rule of Cyrus (a man) in the 6th century BCE
c) the continued best way to compel people to obey man-made religions?
As for your second point, as an atheist, I would say that I do hate the concept of "love me or else" just as I do when it comes to the abusive language used in any relationship here on earth. "You are only good because of me. You are unworthy, you get your worth from me. You don't deserve any goodness in your life, so any goodness you get is a gift from me - it is because of me. If you are harmed or I hurt you, it's your fault - you made me do it. You forced my hand. You made me hurt you and whatever you do, never ever leave me or else." (Quote by Seth Andrews)
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Raf
I don't have to believe in Steve Urkel to despise the character.
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oldiesman
You don't have to believe that Steve Urkel exists to despise the character of Steve Urkel.
Isn't that what some might refer to as a strawman argument?
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oldiesman
You know as much as me that faith is believing... but I should have said "former faith" since she apparently lost it along the way.
I know nothing about schizophrenia... did a little AI searching but can't speak authoritatively. Scriptures promise a chance at healing with the Lord but not guaranteed (unlike that TWI hand that always fits in the glove, we know healing is not always the end result).
But first, I would do everything medically in the senses realm... medication, therapy, etc. While seeking that, continuing in prayer (and fasting) and wait for a response from God. We know God allows these things to occur -- the biggest question is why? I don't have an answer to that, but the fact that I don't doesn't stop me from continuing to have faith in him.
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Raf
Not at all. It is a straight analogy.
You said "I do have a question about atheism in general. What is it really? I thought it was not believing in the existence of a god and/or any spiritual being? If that is the case, why the 'F God' to something that doesn't exist? All that really says is atheists do believe in God but hate his guts?"
The direct answer to your question is "No, one does not have to accept the existence of a fictional character to despise him."
But instead of a straight answer, I used an example. Any example of an annoying fictional character would do. Janice from Friends (Oh. My. Gawd). Jar Jar Binks. Allah. Moroni. Zeus.
When an atheist says "F-God," it is not a tacit admission that we believe God exists. Rather, it is an indication that you have imbued this fictional character with traits that are frankly contemptible.
A few years back I had a thread going called "Are you more moral than Yahweh." It looked at God's attributes and "morality" as described in the Bible and compared it to the values we hold in common today. It was not an admission that God exists and a finding that your morality is an actual improvement over his. Rather, it was a call to recognize that you don't consider him to be the arbiter of morality any more than I do.
My way was just more fun.
In short, no, the Steve Urkel comparison is not a strawman. It is a perfectly fine example of the principle that for some fictional characters, the fact that they are fictional is their only redeeming quality.
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Charity
You admit scriptures promise a chance at healing with the Lord but is not guaranteed (not unlike buying a lottery ticket), and that God allows terrible things to occur without answering the biggest question of why?
Unfortunately, you mistake Marie’s valid reasons to question, if not outright reject, those two ideas as her being “lost” and that the only correct response to being confused and hurt by a system of beliefs is to return to it – to continue to pray (and fast) and wait for a response from God.
To me, this is not healing – it’s gaslighting dressed as spiritual concern. It treats doubt as being the problem. It shames people for thinking critically instead of just "having faith." Marie wants to live her life honestly, not in an illusion. She is not lost. She is on the right path.
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Charity
I posted the latest "prophecy" called" A Final Call Before Finality Falls on the Judged" by William Brooks in the "Spirit of Prophecy" thread. While reading it, the "love me or else" theme ran through it.
I know most Christians would not see it as "love me or else" but as "For God so loved the world that he gave..." I just don't think the latter justifies the prior.
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Charity
I owe you an apology oldiesman. When I used the word "gaslighting" in my post to you above, I was meaning that you were questioning Marie's perception of her reality. I checked this morning and its full definition is the manipulation of someone into questioning their own perception of reality. I do not find you to have been at all manipulative in your posts. I also realize that you never said Marie was lost as I said you did in my reply to you. You actually said twice that she had lost her faith. I apologize for my mistake.
I asked you for your thoughts on what you would say to Marie and you honestly gave me your answer. I do appreciate your willingness to discuss topics with me.
I think Marie did have valid reasons for her doubt and her questions because of what she shared in the video, and I so identified with her confusion about God. She was showing an interest in knowing more about atheism maybe because her son had become an atheist a few years before. Your perspective was to help her find her faith again and to me that was like inviting her back into the same system of beliefs in that there are no guarantees with God's promises and no answers as to why God allowed her daughter to get schizophrenia. Your answer was to continue praying (and fasting) and wait for a response from God. (I know that was your short answer and you probably would have suggested other things as well.)
The thing was that she had already been praying and waiting and it led to her having doubts and confusion. My perspective was that she needed to explore her doubts and continue asking questions. She had already realized that the story of Noah's flood could not logically be true. I learned a lot from listening to atheists because their knowledge is outside of what you will hear within Christian circles and biblical doctrine. I started doing research for myself and decided against the Christian beliefs I held about God, Jesus and the bible. At first I said I was losing my faith but in truth, I was letting go of it because of what I had learned.
I would have encouraged Marie to continue looking for answers and rely on rational evidence for her beliefs instead of going back to settling with "God's ways are higher than your ways so don't question why."
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oldiesman
Thank you so much Charity for taking the time to say all of this it's greatly appreciated.
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