A woman calls into the podcast saying the doctors told here she was unable to conceive children, but later she did deliver two kids. Her only explanation was that God had performed two miracles and she saw no other avenue to explain it.
The moderators asked why this was her only understanding of what had happened? They went on to say no medical diagnosis can be 100% accurate and that other women had conceived who were told they were not able. Only attributing God as the solution is not logical.
The caller went on to say her daughter was born with schizophrenia and was asked why God couldn’t have performed a miracle in preventing that?
It's almost impossible for those who believe in a god to say they don't know why something incredibly unlikely happened. They are taught to automatically call it a miracle. This can be true whether they believe in a Christian god or a Hindu one. As a Roman Catholic, my mother used to always believe the virgin mother Mary or a specific saint answered her prayers.
I look back at the time my car hydroplaned and swerved in front of an 18 wheeler (which I had just passed) and then immediately went back again into my own lane. It happened so fast, I'm not even sure if that was what really happened or just what really seemed to have happened. but I immediately believed it was a miracle of God. If I had not been a "believer," I would have said I don't know how it happened, only that I'm thankful that it did. Later on, I learned that if you turn your wheel away from the skid while you're riding the water, when the tire hits the road again, your car will go in that direction.
Could it not be enlightening to ask Christians for evidence when they claim something that happened was from God? I'm usually not an AI Overview fan, but I do appreciate this one based on the question I googled.
What's also interesting about the video is you can see that Marie is in the process of deconstructing but may also be heading towards deconverting.
She says, "For so long in my life, I sought God and I tried to be a godly wife and a woman of God and then after I left the cult [meaning The Way], I left Christianity as a whole and now it’s like; I sought to have the truth and to know the truth when I was in the groups, and I find that I’m back at that thing – I want to know the truth again, and I want to say I’m living my life honestly and not living in an illusion, I guess."
It reminds me of the 3 questions the host of The Atheist Experience often ask of their callers - What do you believe? Why do you believe it? Do you care if it's true or not?
I don't know why I am reminded of this, but somehow, someway, I think it's relevant...
Lately my som has had lots of questions about why the world is burning and about claims people make and about the manifestation of stupidity all around him. Kids at school regurgitating what they hear at home. His mom and her cult regurgitating what they hear in their echo chamber of mmmph. And he feels baited and tested and awkward.
I tell him it's perfectly ok to say, "I don't know." Especially if you don't. That there is a certain power and liberty and freedom in letting go. That there is a deep knowing in the acceptance of not knowing.
I tell him not everyone really cares about finding out if someone really can or cannot jump over a barn. I tell him most people just want to beleeve. To find out if someone is worth having a conversation with, ask them, "If you were wrong about xyz, would you want to know?"
I don't know why I am reminded of this, but somehow, someway, I think it's relevant...
Lately my som has had lots of questions about why the world is burning and about claims people make and about the manifestation of stupidity all around him. Kids at school regurgitating what they hear at home. His mom and her cult regurgitating what they hear in their echo chamber of mmmph. And he feels baited and tested and awkward.
I tell him it's perfectly ok to say, "I don't know." Especially if you don't. That there is a certain power and liberty and freedom in letting go. That there is a deep knowing in the acceptance of not knowing.
I tell him not everyone really cares about finding out if someone really can or cannot jump over a barn. I tell him most people just want to beleeve. To find out if someone is worth having a conversation with, ask them, "If you were wrong about xyz, would you want to know?"
If the answer is, "But I'm not wrong," walk away.
It warmed my heart just to see you write "my son has had a lot of questions."
This idea of giving God the glory when it's not due Him is something I've thought of often. I struggle to articulate it, but I've come to call it Dumbo's feather. In the Disney movie, Dumbo is led to believe that the feather is magic and enables him to fly. He doesn't find out until the climax that it wasn't the feather at all. The ability was his, without the feather.
I think of that when people say they never could have given up their addiction without God, they never could have straightened out their lives without the power of Jesus through the Holy Spirt, they never could have quit smoking, drinking, drugging, carousing if not for Him.
I stay silent when they say such things, because I know it would be easy for them to fall back into their old habits if their thinking were to change too radically. At the same time, I am remarkably proud of these people because I know there is no magic in the feather. You beat drugs! You beat alcohol! You transformed your life! I am so proud of you! And then you give the glory to the feather.
Right. When it's life or death, if a feather is required for life, let it be a feather.
The language of the Twelve Steps is "a Power greater than ourselves.. God as we understood Him."
The first time I got sober I was 21. Newbies were sometimes reassured that God could be a chair or a feather or whatever. That didn't make much sense to me, but we were also advised to "fake it until we made it." (I was in no position to judge.) At the time, I was deep in the study of non-theistic Eastern thought, so God was neither conceptual nor personal nor a box-bound, barn-jumping cookie Nazi, as I was later "taught."
The Twelve Steps requires work. Honest, fearless, humble, personal, introspective work. Sobriety, like democracy, requires hard work to maintain. A feather without work is dead.
I went to meetings for a year or two. As it has been said of TWI, I was glad to get in, I was glad to get out.
This idea of giving God the glory when it's not due Him is something I've thought of often. I struggle to articulate it, but I've come to call it Dumbo's feather. In the Disney movie, Dumbo is led to believe that the feather is magic and enables him to fly. He doesn't find out until the climax that it wasn't the feather at all. The ability was his, without the feather.
I think of that when people say they never could have given up their addiction without God, they never could have straightened out their lives without the power of Jesus through the Holy Spirt, they never could have quit smoking, drinking, drugging, carousing if not for Him.
I stay silent when they say such things, because I know it would be easy for them to fall back into their old habits if their thinking were to change too radically. At the same time, I am remarkably proud of these people because I know there is no magic in the feather. You beat drugs! You beat alcohol! You transformed your life! I am so proud of you! And then you give the glory to the feather.
I guess. Go ahead.
But I know.
22 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:
Right. When it's life or death,if a feather is required for life, let it be a feather.
The language of the Twelve Steps is "a Power greater than ourselves.. God as we understood Him."
The first time I got sober I was 21. Newbies were sometimes reassured that God could be a chair or a feather or whatever. That didn't make much sense to me, but we were also advised to "fake it until we made it." (I was in no position to judge.) At the time, I was deep in the study of non-theistic Eastern thought, so God was neither conceptual nor personal nor a box-bound, barn-jumping cookie Nazi, as I was later "taught."
The Twelve Steps requires work. Honest, fearless, humble, personal, introspective work. Sobriety, like democracy, requires hard work to maintain. A feather without work is dead.
I went to meetings for a year or two. As it has been said of TWI, I was glad to get in, I was glad to get out.
I agree with what both of you are saying – if it’s working, it doesn’t need fixing.
However, if God, as the chosen higher power, isn’t working and the “why” questions are going unanswered or unsatisfactory/irrational/condemning answers are being given then suggesting letting go of that “feather” for a more healthier one can be helpful. One that promotes personal autonomy, agency, and authenticity such as what Raf refers to at the end of his post.
This idea of giving God the glory when it's not due Him is something I've thought of often. I struggle to articulate it, but I've come to call it Dumbo's feather. In the Disney movie, Dumbo is led to believe that the feather is magic and enables him to fly. He doesn't find out until the climax that it wasn't the feather at all. The ability was his, without the feather.
I think of that when people say they never could have given up their addiction without God, they never could have straightened out their lives without the power of Jesus through the Holy Spirt, they never could have quit smoking, drinking, drugging, carousing if not for Him.
I stay silent when they say such things, because I know it would be easy for them to fall back into their old habits if their thinking were to change too radically. At the same time, I am remarkably proud of these people because I know there is no magic in the feather. You beat drugs! You beat alcohol! You transformed your life! I am so proud of you! And then you give the glory to the feather.
One that promotes personal autonomy, agency, and authenticity such as what Raf refers to at the end of his post.
Right. I was attempting to echo that sentiment at the end of my post. One needs to put in the work and be accountable. Nobody can do it by themselves, but no one can else can do it for you.
The woman says right away that she was in The Way for 15 years before leaving. She is calling in because her son is now an atheist, and she has some questions. Two important events in her life have to do with her belief in God: one is how she became pregnant after being told she physically could not for medical reasons and the other is her adult daughter being diagnosed with schizophrenia.
I'm going to listen to it again but my initial thoughts are that the host gave some rational responses to her questions and doubts.
The video is 17 minutes long and she does give a name at one point.
Watched the video clip. As to the gentleman who said " 'F' God ", I was wondering if he has any fear of eternal hell or any reservations, or otherwise willing to accept living eternally without God; if it comes to that. I would be afraid. His outlook seems as bad as one can get.
When was the last time you hung garlic on your doorway to ward off vampires?
When was the last time you genuinely feared you would get a visit from tge Krampus instead of Santa Claus because you were on the Naughty List?
What horrors await you for rejecting Muhammad as Allah's final prophet, peace be upon him?
We fear the hell posited by Christianity as much as you fear all those other fates. Which is to say, not at all.
And while we may not all muster the disrespect for your beliefs to say "F-God," I will gladly say that based on how the Bible presents him, Yahweh's non-existence in reality is probably his only redeeming quality.
Right. I was attempting to echo that sentiment at the end of my post. One needs to put in the work and be accountable. Nobody can do it by themselves, but no one can else can do it for you.
Thank you for your post. I understand the fear and pain associated with alcoholism. My father was an alcoholic for decades. Often, he would become abusive, even violent towards my mother. Her priest told her this was her burden to bear and that she'd receive her reward in heaven (f$ck that sh$t). One year, in his late sixties, he had a heart attack and became a grandfather for the first time. (He would love sitting in his rocking chair with my infant son asleep on his big belly.) He just stopped his drinking that year.
My father never talked about his alcoholism after that, and I regret not asking him about it so I could understand what it was like for him. His strong Catholic faith was never enough to help him even though I know he sincerely felt remorse and wanted to stop. It was more likely his thankfulness for getting a second chance at life and the comfort from loving his newborn grandson that helped him. I still get emotional thinking about it.
Watched the video clip. As to the gentleman who said " 'F' God ", I was wondering if he has any fear of eternal hell or any reservations, or otherwise willing to accept living eternally without God; if it comes to that. I would be afraid. His outlook seems as bad as one can get.
Do you really think that fear of going to hell is a good reason to worship the god who is threatening to send you there if you don't love him?
Watched the video clip. As to the gentleman who said " 'F' God ", I was wondering if he has any fear of eternal hell or any reservations, or otherwise willing to accept living eternally without God; if it comes to that. I would be afraid. His outlook seems as bad as one can get.
I think it's unfortunate that you chose to focus on those two words instead of the issues around "believing" that the video was about.
Marie was in the Way for 15 years. She eventually came to realize, like the dozens of posters on GSC, that it was a cult. You know then, oldiesman, that she was taught the false and harmful "law of believing" dogma. Could you not have related to her confusion about why God would "bless" her with children because of her believing and then later on "give" her daughter schizophrenia. Having the required faith to get answers to prayers is definitely a "hit or miss" practice where God gets the credit for the supposed hits and believers get the blame for the obvious misses.
Did your heart ache when she said, "For so long in my life, I sought God and I tried to be a godly wife and a woman of God and then after I left the cult, I left Christianity as a whole and now it’s like, I sought to have the truth and to know the truth when I was in the groups and I find that I’m back at that thing – I want to know the truth again, and I want to say I’m living my life honestly and not living in an illusion, I guess."
If she was talking to you, oldiesman, what would you have said to her?
Edited by Charity Changed the word enslaved to taught
One aspect that sometimes gets overlooked is that it's not always about only yourself. You may be willing to take chances with your own well being, but what about your loved ones? Sure, I could walk away, but what tragedy might befall, my spouse, my child, my extended family by my turning my back on the cult? It's a powerful control tactic, as evidenced by the situation in N. Korea. Grease spot in the road by midnight, anyone?
Do you really think that fear of going to hell is a good reason to worship the god who is threatening to send you there if you don't love him?
Certainly not... but I believe a reason to worship God and continue in the faith, comes from awe and respect for what he's done to demonstrate his grace and mercy and believing that his justice ultimately will prevail. I've been told in the catholic faith that eternal hell is part of that justice; only don't ask me to explain that.
I do have a question about atheism in general. What is it really? I thought it was not believing in the existence of a god and/or any spiritual being? If that is the case, why the "F God" to something that doesn't exist? All that really says is atheists do believe in God but hate his guts?
I think it's unfortunate that you chose to focus on those two words instead of the issues around "believing" that the video was about.
Marie was in the Way for 15 years. She eventually came to realize, like the dozens of posters on GSC, that it was a cult. You know then, oldiesman, that she was taught the false and harmful "law of believing" dogma. Could you not have related to her confusion about why God would "bless" her with children because of her believing and then later on "give" her daughter schizophrenia. Having the required faith to get answers to prayers is definitely a "hit or miss" practice where God gets the credit for the supposed hits and believers get the blame for the obvious misses.
Did your heart ache when she said, "For so long in my life, I sought God and I tried to be a godly wife and a woman of God and then after I left the cult, I left Christianity as a whole and now it’s like, I sought to have the truth and to know the truth when I was in the groups and I find that I’m back at that thing – I want to know the truth again, and I want to say I’m living my life honestly and not living in an illusion, I guess."
If she was talking to you, oldiesman, what would you have said to her?
"you lost your faith in God along the way... let me help you get it back I am willing if you want my help..."
Yes, but what is faith? Where does faith come in when it comes to her question - "My daughter’s 36 now and she’s schizophrenic and if God is going to bless me with a miracle baby then why did he give her schizophrenia – what kind of god would do that?"
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Stayed Too Long
I had never heard of the Atheist Experience.
A woman calls into the podcast saying the doctors told here she was unable to conceive children, but later she did deliver two kids. Her only explanation was that God had performed two miracles and she saw no other avenue to explain it.
The moderators asked why this was her only understanding of what had happened? They went on to say no medical diagnosis can be 100% accurate and that other women had conceived who were told they were not able. Only attributing God as the solution is not logical.
The caller went on to say her daughter was born with schizophrenia and was asked why God couldn’t have performed a miracle in preventing that?
Great read.
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Charity
It's almost impossible for those who believe in a god to say they don't know why something incredibly unlikely happened. They are taught to automatically call it a miracle. This can be true whether they believe in a Christian god or a Hindu one. As a Roman Catholic, my mother used to always believe the virgin mother Mary or a specific saint answered her prayers.
I look back at the time my car hydroplaned and swerved in front of an 18 wheeler (which I had just passed) and then immediately went back again into my own lane. It happened so fast, I'm not even sure if that was what really happened or just what really seemed to have happened. but I immediately believed it was a miracle of God. If I had not been a "believer," I would have said I don't know how it happened, only that I'm thankful that it did. Later on, I learned that if you turn your wheel away from the skid while you're riding the water, when the tire hits the road again, your car will go in that direction.
Could it not be enlightening to ask Christians for evidence when they claim something that happened was from God? I'm usually not an AI Overview fan, but I do appreciate this one based on the question I googled.
Giving god the glory without evidence it was from god
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Charity
What's also interesting about the video is you can see that Marie is in the process of deconstructing but may also be heading towards deconverting.
She says, "For so long in my life, I sought God and I tried to be a godly wife and a woman of God and then after I left the cult [meaning The Way], I left Christianity as a whole and now it’s like; I sought to have the truth and to know the truth when I was in the groups, and I find that I’m back at that thing – I want to know the truth again, and I want to say I’m living my life honestly and not living in an illusion, I guess."
It reminds me of the 3 questions the host of The Atheist Experience often ask of their callers - What do you believe? Why do you believe it? Do you care if it's true or not?
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Nathan_Jr
I don't know why I am reminded of this, but somehow, someway, I think it's relevant...
Lately my som has had lots of questions about why the world is burning and about claims people make and about the manifestation of stupidity all around him. Kids at school regurgitating what they hear at home. His mom and her cult regurgitating what they hear in their echo chamber of mmmph. And he feels baited and tested and awkward.
I tell him it's perfectly ok to say, "I don't know." Especially if you don't. That there is a certain power and liberty and freedom in letting go. That there is a deep knowing in the acceptance of not knowing.
I tell him not everyone really cares about finding out if someone really can or cannot jump over a barn. I tell him most people just want to beleeve. To find out if someone is worth having a conversation with, ask them, "If you were wrong about xyz, would you want to know?"
If the answer is, "But I'm not wrong," walk away.
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Charity
It warmed my heart just to see you write "my son has had a lot of questions."
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Raf
This idea of giving God the glory when it's not due Him is something I've thought of often. I struggle to articulate it, but I've come to call it Dumbo's feather. In the Disney movie, Dumbo is led to believe that the feather is magic and enables him to fly. He doesn't find out until the climax that it wasn't the feather at all. The ability was his, without the feather.
I think of that when people say they never could have given up their addiction without God, they never could have straightened out their lives without the power of Jesus through the Holy Spirt, they never could have quit smoking, drinking, drugging, carousing if not for Him.
I stay silent when they say such things, because I know it would be easy for them to fall back into their old habits if their thinking were to change too radically. At the same time, I am remarkably proud of these people because I know there is no magic in the feather. You beat drugs! You beat alcohol! You transformed your life! I am so proud of you! And then you give the glory to the feather.
I guess. Go ahead.
But I know.
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Nathan_Jr
Right. When it's life or death, if a feather is required for life, let it be a feather.
The language of the Twelve Steps is "a Power greater than ourselves.. God as we understood Him."
The first time I got sober I was 21. Newbies were sometimes reassured that God could be a chair or a feather or whatever. That didn't make much sense to me, but we were also advised to "fake it until we made it." (I was in no position to judge.) At the time, I was deep in the study of non-theistic Eastern thought, so God was neither conceptual nor personal nor a box-bound, barn-jumping cookie Nazi, as I was later "taught."
The Twelve Steps requires work. Honest, fearless, humble, personal, introspective work. Sobriety, like democracy, requires hard work to maintain. A feather without work is dead.
I went to meetings for a year or two. As it has been said of TWI, I was glad to get in, I was glad to get out.
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Charity
I agree with what both of you are saying – if it’s working, it doesn’t need fixing.
However, if God, as the chosen higher power, isn’t working and the “why” questions are going unanswered or unsatisfactory/irrational/condemning answers are being given then suggesting letting go of that “feather” for a more healthier one can be helpful. One that promotes personal autonomy, agency, and authenticity such as what Raf refers to at the end of his post.
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Charity
Dumbo Ending
"The magic feather was just a gag..."
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Nathan_Jr
Right. I was attempting to echo that sentiment at the end of my post. One needs to put in the work and be accountable. Nobody can do it by themselves, but no one can else can do it for you.
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oldiesman
Watched the video clip. As to the gentleman who said " 'F' God ", I was wondering if he has any fear of eternal hell or any reservations, or otherwise willing to accept living eternally without God; if it comes to that. I would be afraid. His outlook seems as bad as one can get.
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Raf
When was the last time you hung garlic on your doorway to ward off vampires?
When was the last time you genuinely feared you would get a visit from tge Krampus instead of Santa Claus because you were on the Naughty List?
What horrors await you for rejecting Muhammad as Allah's final prophet, peace be upon him?
We fear the hell posited by Christianity as much as you fear all those other fates. Which is to say, not at all.
And while we may not all muster the disrespect for your beliefs to say "F-God," I will gladly say that based on how the Bible presents him, Yahweh's non-existence in reality is probably his only redeeming quality.
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waysider
That only works if you also hang a mini witches broom from the back of the doorknob. I think it must be a bluetooth sort of thing.
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Charity
Thank you for your post. I understand the fear and pain associated with alcoholism. My father was an alcoholic for decades. Often, he would become abusive, even violent towards my mother. Her priest told her this was her burden to bear and that she'd receive her reward in heaven (f$ck that sh$t). One year, in his late sixties, he had a heart attack and became a grandfather for the first time. (He would love sitting in his rocking chair with my infant son asleep on his big belly.) He just stopped his drinking that year.
My father never talked about his alcoholism after that, and I regret not asking him about it so I could understand what it was like for him. His strong Catholic faith was never enough to help him even though I know he sincerely felt remorse and wanted to stop. It was more likely his thankfulness for getting a second chance at life and the comfort from loving his newborn grandson that helped him. I still get emotional thinking about it.
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Charity
Do you really think that fear of going to hell is a good reason to worship the god who is threatening to send you there if you don't love him?
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Charity
I think it's unfortunate that you chose to focus on those two words instead of the issues around "believing" that the video was about.
Marie was in the Way for 15 years. She eventually came to realize, like the dozens of posters on GSC, that it was a cult. You know then, oldiesman, that she was taught the false and harmful "law of believing" dogma. Could you not have related to her confusion about why God would "bless" her with children because of her believing and then later on "give" her daughter schizophrenia. Having the required faith to get answers to prayers is definitely a "hit or miss" practice where God gets the credit for the supposed hits and believers get the blame for the obvious misses.
Did your heart ache when she said, "For so long in my life, I sought God and I tried to be a godly wife and a woman of God and then after I left the cult, I left Christianity as a whole and now it’s like, I sought to have the truth and to know the truth when I was in the groups and I find that I’m back at that thing – I want to know the truth again, and I want to say I’m living my life honestly and not living in an illusion, I guess."
If she was talking to you, oldiesman, what would you have said to her?
Edited by CharityChanged the word enslaved to taught
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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waysider
One aspect that sometimes gets overlooked is that it's not always about only yourself. You may be willing to take chances with your own well being, but what about your loved ones? Sure, I could walk away, but what tragedy might befall, my spouse, my child, my extended family by my turning my back on the cult? It's a powerful control tactic, as evidenced by the situation in N. Korea. Grease spot in the road by midnight, anyone?
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oldiesman
Certainly not... but I believe a reason to worship God and continue in the faith, comes from awe and respect for what he's done to demonstrate his grace and mercy and believing that his justice ultimately will prevail. I've been told in the catholic faith that eternal hell is part of that justice; only don't ask me to explain that.
I do have a question about atheism in general. What is it really? I thought it was not believing in the existence of a god and/or any spiritual being? If that is the case, why the "F God" to something that doesn't exist? All that really says is atheists do believe in God but hate his guts?
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oldiesman
"you lost your faith in God along the way... let me help you get it back I am willing if you want my help..."
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oldiesman
omitted post here wrong thread -- sorry!
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Charity
Thank you for your reply oldiesman. What would you tell her faith is?
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oldiesman
Christian
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Yes, but what is faith? Where does faith come in when it comes to her question - "My daughter’s 36 now and she’s schizophrenic and if God is going to bless me with a miracle baby then why did he give her schizophrenia – what kind of god would do that?"
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