Thanks Raf - I wasn't thinking of the confidentiality that is behind the names we give ourselves on GSC). I will reword my question to Revvel.
Rewording the question won't change the fact that he chose to reveal his own identity here a few years ago. It's not a secret because he himself made it public. I noticed the same before you asked.
Of course, he doesn't have to answer because he already has.
Rewording the question won't change the fact that he chose to reveal his own identity here a few years ago. It's not a secret because he himself made it public. I noticed the same before you asked.
Of course, he doesn't have to answer because he already has.
Now that you know, does it really matter?
I don't know when or where he revealed his identity on GSC (a link would be helpful), so it was still a secret to me. I think it does matter because is he here for a discussion or simply to teach his doctrine found in his books and on his website? I began to feel in was the latter after reading more of his posts and replies, so I decided to look him up here which lead to his post with his website which led directly to William Ayles.
I don't know what the GSC rules say about this matter, but for me personally, I feel like he is misrepresenting himself.
I don't know when or where he revealed his identity on GSC (a link would be helpful), so it was still a secret to me. I think it does matter because is he here for a discussion or simply to teach his doctrine found in his books and on his website? I began to feel in was the latter after reading more of his posts and replies, so I decided to look him up here which lead to his post with his website which led directly to William Ayles.
I don't know what the GSC rules say about this matter, but for me personally, I feel like he is misrepresenting himself.
I think he revealed himself in that thread from which you quoted him. On his profile page he posts his website. It's not a secret.
It's the Doctrinal forum. Everyone has an opinion. Almost everyone is right and almost everyone else is wrong. Me and you, us and them. Many are here to "teach" - because rewards and demerits and all that. But some good discussions are to be had, also.
It's no different than the earliest incarnations of the Church in the first and second centuries.
Revvel's style is not to my taste. So, I don't engage. He doesn't seem eager to discuss and answer questions the way Socks and WordWolf might.
When we get to the witness of Christ & the Fig Tree parable/prophecy, you can draw your own conclusions. You seem smart enough to do so.
Peace.
revvel
On 3/2/2025 at 11:55 PM, Charity said:
I don't know when or where he revealed his identity on GSC (a link would be helpful), so it was still a secret to me. I think it does matter because is he here for a discussion or simply to teach his doctrine found in his books and on his website? I began to feel in was the latter after reading more of his posts and replies, so I decided to look him up here which lead to his post with his website which led directly to William Ayles.
I don't know what the GSC rules say about this matter, but for me personally, I feel like he is misrepresenting himself.
revvel, concerning the last post I wrote before GSC went down (see above), I want to personally address my issues with this thread.
I do not feel like you want a discussion as your replies to posts in general have often been minimal in content with a “wait and see what great thing I will share next – you’ll be amazed” tone of voice. I find that to be a bit presumptuous on your part - it sounds like something a salesman would say to get you to want to buy their product. And then sure enough, a post with scriptures and your commentaries would follow.
Your specific approach to answering my questions have sounded condescending and/or patronizing as well. For example, “You continue to demonstrate the depth of your intellect. Yet another excellent question. Patience, Charity, Patience... we'll get there.” I was a teacher before I retired and learned it was best to let the students guide the lesson with their questions instead of giving them a pat on the head for asking them and then continue to follow an inflexible series of lesson I had planned.
While I do like discussing scripture and am learning to be use the Socratic method when doing so, I found this thread personally frustrating. I will, however, answer the question you did ask me next.
The Parable of the 10 Virgins: “Sleeping” Metaphor, Isaiah, Christ & The Mystery, Israel
So we are all on the same page: The Parable of the 10 Virgins is just that… a parable, a fictitious story, an illustration with symbols.
Returning to the opening question: What do “sleeping” virgins symbolize?
“While the bridegroom tarried, theyall slumbered and slept” (Matt. 25:5). 100% of the virgins—wise and foolish—slept.
Per Isaiah, Christ & Paul:“Sleeping” means “Eyes Closed,” Symbolically/Spiritually.
Isaiah 29
“Be delayed and wait, blind yourselves and be blind. They are drunk, but not with wine.
They stagger, but not with strong drink. For the Lord has poured out on you the spirit of deep sleep and has closed your eyes.” (Isa. 29:9, 10)
Isaiah 6
He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn and be healed.” (Isa. 6:9, 10)
Matthew 13: Christ Quoted Isaiah 6
“Therefore I speak to them in parables: ‘Because they look, but do not see. And they listen, but they do not hear, neither do they understand.’ In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says:
‘By hearing, you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing, you will see and shall not perceive; for this people’s heart has grown dull. Their ears have become hard of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I should heal them.’” (Matt. 13:13-15)
Romans 11: Paul, The Mystery for Israel & the House of Jacob
Christ returned to the “eyes” metaphor, when He revealed to Paul the mystery for Israel & the house of Jacob.
For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to [has come over*] Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: “There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.” (Rom. 11:25-27)
*“Happened” in Hebrew means “to come over”; in Greek: “to come into existence.”
Next: The Parable of the 10 Virgins: The Witness of the Lord God & Christ
Peace.
revvel
Wanted to mention that when it says "all Israel shall be saved" it means that, Jews who now are believers in Jesus Christ and his finished work shall be saved. That is the essence of the "new covenant" that the mystery describes, i.e. that the Jews and Gentiles shall be one body IN CHRIST. The old covenant Jews who still await the Messiah are simply missing the boat and in danger of eternal fire. The only covenant Jews now have to make them "God's chosen people" (just like the believing Gentiles now) is belief in Jesus Christ; not their DNA, or traditions, or anything else.
I believe this must be explained again, especially since there are many a good bible teacher who still believe that Jews can be saved without Jesus.
Within this lens—of Christ’s divine revelation—there is another lens given to us by Christ on how to view Genesis to Revelation: The Mystery.
[W]e speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age knew it. For had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (1 Cor. 2:7, 8)
From Genesis to the Gospel of John, God had hidden a mystery—in Scriptures given prior to the Crucifixion.
Could Christ have revealed the mystery prior to the Crucifixion? No… of course not.
After the Resurrection/Ascension, Christ could reveal the mystery—and He did. That is the lens by which to view the Book of Acts to the Book of Revelation—while looking back at the rest of the Bible, including the Parable of the 10 Virgins.
On 3/2/2025 at 5:16 PM, Charity said:
What evidence is there that Jesus knew about the mystery before his crucifixion?
On 3/2/2025 at 9:42 PM, revvel said:
Charity: Have you ever asked this question before this thread?
If so, what response did you get?
I realize now that I misread what you wrote about Christ knowing the mystery before the crucifixion. You specifically stated he did not (as shown above in blue font). How "God had hidden a mystery—in Scriptures given prior to the Crucifixion" (also highlighted in blue above) is what you are endeavouring to show through this thread. I conflated your two ideas into one.
It's the Doctrinal forum. Everyone has an opinion. Almost everyone is right and almost everyone else is wrong. Me and you, us and them. Many are here to "teach" - because rewards and demerits and all that. But some good discussions are to be had, also.
It's no different than the earliest incarnations of the Church in the first and second centuries.
You’re right. I have sent revvel a post explaining my previous comment regarding his intentions regarding this thread. It’s an “in-my-opinion” post, and I will leave it at that.
Your sentence highlighted above is a good one. The way vp talked about wanting to teach the word like it hadn’t been taught since the first century led me to believe everything was perfectly accurate and agreed upon back then. It was a real eye-opener to realize it was anything but and that the contents of the bible took centuries to be decided upon because of all the disagreements. And even then, it was anything close to being perfectly accurate and continues to be so disagreed upon today.
My apologies... had to attend to other matters… good to be back at the café.
I read thru your posts. Regardless of your take on me or what I post, honestly, I’m glad you’re here.
And I’m thankful that—after all these years—this café is still open.
And if Scripture proves to be a catalyst for thought, Great. I’ll drink to that.
Back to the main theme:
When we look to the words of the Son, we can also look to the words of His Father. In essence, the Lord God spoke in the First Person throughout the Old Testament—speaking through the prophets. And as He set the precedents, we can look to His precedents to better understand His Son. Additionally, we have the prophets and apostles as witnesses/writers. And case in point: The Parable of the 10 Virgins.
In the Parable of the 10 Virgins, the Son drew upon His Father's Words, His precedents.
1.The Son: “For I have not spoken on My own authority, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. I know that His command is eternal life. Therefore what I say, I say as the Father tells me.” (John 12:49, 50)
2.The Father: “Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My good pleasure.’” (Isa. 46:9, 10)
In the parable, the Son drew upon His Father’s prophecies (of what shall be in the “end”) and His symbols.
The Witness of the Lord God & Christ: The Fig Tree & Virgin Symbols
The Parable of the 10 Virgins is in the context of the Fig Tree (Matt. 24:32-34).
Why a Fig Tree?
Why Virgins?
Symbols for what?
Our witnesses are:
1.Our Lord God (via Hosea & Jeremiah)*
2.Christ
*Confirming: We will hear from the Lord God (in the First Person) by quoting the 2 prophets.
Perhaps… with this post… The unified voice of the Father and the Son will herald a testimony so unmistakably clear you will feel inspired to review the Parable of the 10 Virgins in light of the harmony between the Old & New Testaments.
Matthew 24: Christ
“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree:…”(Matt. 24:32-34)
Hosea 9: The Lord God, The Fig Tree
“Like grapes in the wilderness, I found Israel. Like the first fruit on the fig tree in its first season, I saw your fathers.” (Hos. 9:10)
Jeremiah 24: The Lord God, The Figs
“The Lord showed me two baskets of figs that were set before the temple of the Lord after Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and the officials of Judah with the carpenters and smiths from Jerusalem and brought them to Babylon. One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe, and the other basket had very rotten figs, which were so rotten they could not be eaten.
“Then the Lord said to me, ‘What do you see, Jeremiah?’
“And I said, ‘Figs, the good figs, very good. And the rotten, very rotten, that are so rotten they cannot be eaten.’
“Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
‘Thus says the Lord the God of Israel: Like these good figs, so I will acknowledge those who are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good. For I will set My eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land. And I will build them up and not pull them down. And I will plant them and not pluck them up. I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.’
‘But as the rotten figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so rotten, says the Lord, so I will forsake Zedekiah the king of Judah and his officials, and the rest of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and those who dwell in the land of Egypt.’” (Jer. 24:1-8)
Then, in Jeremiah 31, the Lord God “sees” Israel again with another symbol—a Virgin—with a promise of hope & celebration.
Jeremiah 31: The Lord God, O Virgin
“The Lord has appeared to him from afar, saying:
‘Indeed, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you. Again I will build you and you will be built, O virgin of Israel. You will again be adorned with your tambourines and shall go forth in the dances of those who make merry.’ (Jer. 31:3, 4)
“For thus says the Lord:
‘Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations;
publish, praise, and say, “O Lord, save Your people, the remnant of Israel.’” (Jer. 31:7)
‘Therefore they will come and sing in the height of Zion, and will be joyful over the goodness of the Lord, for wheat and for wine and for oil and for the young of the flock and of the herd; and their souls will be as a watered garden. And they will not sorrow any more at all. Then the virgin shall rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together; for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.’” (Jer. 31:12, 13)
Consider: The Parable of the 10 Virgins: Entering the kingdom of Heaven is likened to entering a wedding banquet. Compare the illustration/parable to what the Father prophesied for "O Virgin of Israel."
We have the irrefutable witness of the Father and the Son. The Son followed the pattern of symbols given by His Father: the Fig Tree/Figs & 10 Virgins/O Virgin—and these symbols are, of course, symbols for Israel.
Next: The witness of the Lord God & Moses -- The First Deliverer of Israel
To set the stage for the witness of the Lord God & Moses…
Matthew 25: The Parable of the 10 Virgins/Galilean Culture
On the Mount of Olives, the Son spoke to His disciples in parables—with relatable Hebrew symbols/language/culture. The kingdom of Heaven is likened to a wedding banquet.
“Those who were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them. But the wise took jars of oil with their lamps.”
In this parable, Christ’s illustration draws upon a Galilean reality: The members of a wedding procession would carry their (oil fired) torches* in the night through the streets to the wedding banquet… And in the parable, it’s the wise virgins—with their torches ablaze—who enter the banquet.
*In the parable, the Greek word—Lampas—means “torch” (i.e. lamppost)—not lamp.
(Another usage: Revelation 8:10: “The third angel sounded, and a great star from heaven, burning like a torch [Lampas].”)
Of course, the question is: What exactly is Christ conveying with this illustration of 10 Virgins & the kingdom of Heaven?
Consider 40+ days later…
Ascension Day
The Son is back on the Mount of Olives with His disciples, and they have the following exchange:
“So when they had come together, they asked Him, ‘Lord, will You at this time restore thekingdom to Israel?’” (Acts 1:6).
Question:
Is it possible/probable the disciples are continuing in the same train of thought—the future (deliverance/restoration) of Israel—that Christ established with the parables of the Fig Tree (Israel) & 10 Virgins (Israel)?
Next: The Witness of the Father, the Son & Moses—the first deliverer of Israel
To set the stage for the witness of the Lord God & Moses…
Matthew 25: The Parable of the 10 Virgins/Galilean Culture
On the Mount of Olives, the Son spoke to His disciples in parables—with relatable Hebrew symbols/language/culture. The kingdom of Heaven is likened to a wedding banquet.
“Those who were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them. But the wise took jars of oil with their lamps.”
In this parable, Christ’s illustration draws upon a Galilean reality: The members of a wedding procession would carry their (oil fired) torches* in the night through the streets to the wedding banquet… And in the parable, it’s the wise virgins—with their torches ablaze—who enter the banquet.
*In the parable, the Greek word—Lampas—means “torch” (i.e. lamppost)—not lamp.
(Another usage: Revelation 8:10: “The third angel sounded, and a great star from heaven, burning like a torch [Lampas].”)
Of course, the question is: What exactly is Christ conveying with this illustration of 10 Virgins & the kingdom of Heaven?
Consider 40+ days later…
Ascension Day
The Son is back on the Mount of Olives with His disciples, and they have the following exchange:
“So when they had come together, they asked Him, ‘Lord, will You at this time restore thekingdom to Israel?’” (Acts 1:6).
Question:
Is it possible/probable the disciples are continuing in the same train of thought—the future (deliverance/restoration) of Israel—that Christ established with the parables of the Fig Tree (Israel) & 10 Virgins (Israel)?
Next: The Witness of the Father, the Son & Moses—the first deliverer of Israel
Peace.
revvel
Unlikely. "Israel" is the old covenant in this passage. The old covenant was abolished when Christ offered his body and blood as payment for the sins of all mankind that now all mankind, Jews and Gentiles, must agree to/believe in to be saved (new covenant). Now, if you want to refer to the new covenant as today's Israel, that's ok with me. But I believe it can and does spread some confusion about what covenants we are talking about. Thx.
Oldiesman: Many thanks for your input. It inspired another train of thought.
Christ is the One who handed us the key to “unlock”/shed light on His own prophecies/parables in the Gospels: The Revelation of the Mystery.
There is a mystery for Israel.
And a mystery for the Church.
Looking back to The Torah to the Gospel of John, we see both mysteries, once hidden, revealed by Christ after His Ascension.
The subject of the Parable of the 10 Virgins is the coming kingdom of Heaven (on Earth), which is when the world will witness the restoration of Israel’s kingdom—when the High Priest, Christ, saves Israel & makes atonement for the house of Jacob.
Romans 11: The Mystery: Israel/Matthew 25
When we read the Parable of the 10 Virgins…
This is what will actually come to pass when the prophetic parable is fulfilled:
"For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.” (Rom. 11:25-27)
Paul quoted Isaiah (59:20, 21; 27:9) to reveal the mystery for Israel once hidden in Isaiah’s prophecies. And the Parable of the 10 Virgins is an illustration of this prophetic truth. It will be fulfilled at the second coming to Israel: Matt. 24:27-31.
Hidden in the (prophetic) Parable of the 10 Virgins was the mystery for Israel—not the Church. The literal context (Matt. 24:27-31) and figurative context (Parables of the Fig Tree & 10 Virgins) speak of Israel. These all speak of the mystery for Israel which shall be fulfilled—which includes the kingdom of Israel, restored.
Acts 1
“So when they had come together, they asked Him, ‘Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?’” He said to them, “It is not for you to know the times or the dates, which the Father has fixed by His own authority.” (Acts 1:6,7)
Christ didn’t refute His disciples. He simply said the timing is not yet; it is in the hands of the Father. He determines when the mystery for Israel will be fulfilled. It’s not a question of “if,” but rather, “when.”
Acts 15
James issued the same prophetic statement about the coming restoration of Israel—quoting the prophet Amos. And James did so in the context of the Gentiles being grafted in (revealing the mystery):
“With this the words of the prophets agree. As it is written:
‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up;that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does all these things.’Known to God are all His works since the beginning of the world.” (Acts 15:15-18)
It is the Revelation of the Mystery that sheds divine light on Matthew 24 & 25—and likewise with Luke 21.
They will fall by the edge of the sword and will be led away captive to all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:24)
Who are “they”? Israel. What will be trampled on by the Gentiles? Jerusalem. What is the subject of Christ’s prophecy? Israel & Jerusalem.
Compare the terminology used by Christ in Luke 21 to the terminology/mystery for Israel He revealed to Paul in Romans 11.
Romans 11: Paul & Isaiah
For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israeluntil the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: “There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.” (Rom. 11:25-27)
What will come to pass when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled?
“There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer” … exactly as Joel prophesied.
Joel 3
The sun and moon darken, and the stars withdraw their radiance. The Lord roars from Zion, and sounds His voice from Jerusalem, and heaven and earth quake. But the Lord is a refuge for His people, and a stronghold for the children of Israel. (Joel 3:15, 16)
Thus, the mystery for “the children of Israel” shall be fulfilled: The Deliverer, Christ, the High Priest will save Israel and remove ungodliness from the house of Jacob.When?
“When these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption is drawing near” (Luke 21:28).
“Your redemption” refers to whom? The context & the mystery: Israel/the house of Jacob.
4 Witnesses—Christ, Paul, Isaiah & Joel—testify that Luke 21:20-28 prophesies of Israel/the house of Jacob.
0 Witnesses—in the Bible—testify to the contrary.
Luke 21: The Fig Tree
“He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees…” (Luke 21:29-31).
As the Lord God revealed to us: The Fig Tree is a symbol for Israel, (Hos. 9:10)—with “good figs” & “rotten figs” (Jer. 24:1-8). And the Fig Tree parable is 100% consistent with the context of Christ’s prophecy & the mystery for Israel: (Luke 21:20-28; Rom. 11:25-27).
Matthew 24 & 25: The Fig Tree
In the Gospel of Luke, Christ established irrefutable, divine truth: The Fig Tree parable symbolically speaks of Israel—and also speaks of the coming redemption for Israel, when the mystery for Israel is fulfilled. As Christ’s truth is universal, this truth applies regardless of which Gospel this parable is found.
Christ: Matthew & Luke
The voice of Christ given through Matthew & Luke provides different pieces of the same puzzle picture: Israel’s redemption, atonement & restoration—elucidated by illustrations, the Fig Tree and 10 Virgins.
Next: Witness of the Father, the Son & Moses—the first deliverer of Israel
The Witness of the Father, the Son & Moses: Midnight
Look at the “time” …
“But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Look, the bridegroom is coming! Come out to meet him!’’’ (Matt. 25:6)
Why “midnight”?
What does “midnight” symbolize in the parable?
What preceded Christ’s parable? Christ’s command: “Watch.”
“Watch therefore….” (Matt. 24:42-44).
What is significant about “midnight” in the Bible? It’s a watch hour.
What is the historical/symbolic significance of “midnight” in the context of the Fig Tree (Israel) & 10 Virgins (Israel)? The Father ordained “deliverance” to come to pass at the “midnight watch hour.”
Exodus 12: The Exodus
At midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon and all the firstborn of livestock. Pharaoh rose up in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians, and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where there was not someone dead.
Then he called for Moses and Aaron at night and said, “Rise up, and get out from among my people, both you and the children of Israel, and go, serve the Lord, as you have said. Also take your flocks and your herds, as you have said, and be gone, and bless me also.” (Exod. 12:29-32)
The Father set the precedent… and the Son followed. Thus, we have the unified voice (again) of the Father and the Son: the midnight watch hour signifies deliverance.
The Hebrews (in Egypt)“watched” by following God’s Word given by Moses—placing lamb’s blood on the doorposts, and thus, the angel of death passed over them—bringing forth deliverance.
And to this very day and time… What do Hebrews ask at Passover? “Why is this night different from all the rest”? Hebrew deliverance at the midnight watch hour is remembered… 3500 years later. Significant? Yes. It’s still branded in the hearts and minds of the followers of Moses who await their Messiah… This solemn act—lamb’s blood on the doorposts—at the time of the Deliverer, Moses, foreshadowed the blood of God’s Lamb, the coming Deliverer, Christ.
The parallel between Israel’s history and future is unmistakable:
Just as the Lord God delivered and gathered the Hebrews through Moses (following the exile in Egypt), so shall the Lord God deliver and gather the sons of Israel through Christ (following the exile to the “four winds” of the Earth). As Moses delivered the Hebrews from Pharaoh, so shall Christ deliver the sons of Israel from the Antichrist (Matt. 24:15, 27-31).
The historical/symbolic significance of “midnight” at the time of Moses, and the prophetic/symbolic significance of “midnight” in the parable given by Christ, tell the same “ancestral story:” Deliverance.
In the Parable of the 10 Virgins, “Midnight” symbolically represents the “Time” of Divine Visitation and Israel’s Deliverance—for the wise virgins who “watched.”
Recommended Posts
Charity
On your thread The Torah to Revelation, you write, "The entire book can be read online on my website: www.thetimeline.org"
Are you William Ayles who wrote "The Mystery of God?"
Edited by CharityLink to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Revvel:
You may answer that if ypu choose, but if you choose nit to, that's ok too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Thanks Raf - I wasn't thinking of the confidentiality that is behind the names we give ourselves on GSC). I will reword my question to Revvel.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Rewording the question won't change the fact that he chose to reveal his own identity here a few years ago. It's not a secret because he himself made it public. I noticed the same before you asked.
Of course, he doesn't have to answer because he already has.
Now that you know, does it really matter?
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I don't know when or where he revealed his identity on GSC (a link would be helpful), so it was still a secret to me. I think it does matter because is he here for a discussion or simply to teach his doctrine found in his books and on his website? I began to feel in was the latter after reading more of his posts and replies, so I decided to look him up here which lead to his post with his website which led directly to William Ayles.
I don't know what the GSC rules say about this matter, but for me personally, I feel like he is misrepresenting himself.
Edited by CharityLink to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
I think he revealed himself in that thread from which you quoted him. On his profile page he posts his website. It's not a secret.
It's the Doctrinal forum. Everyone has an opinion. Almost everyone is right and almost everyone else is wrong. Me and you, us and them. Many are here to "teach" - because rewards and demerits and all that. But some good discussions are to be had, also.
It's no different than the earliest incarnations of the Church in the first and second centuries.
Revvel's style is not to my taste. So, I don't engage. He doesn't seem eager to discuss and answer questions the way Socks and WordWolf might.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
revvel, concerning the last post I wrote before GSC went down (see above), I want to personally address my issues with this thread.
I do not feel like you want a discussion as your replies to posts in general have often been minimal in content with a “wait and see what great thing I will share next – you’ll be amazed” tone of voice. I find that to be a bit presumptuous on your part - it sounds like something a salesman would say to get you to want to buy their product. And then sure enough, a post with scriptures and your commentaries would follow.
Your specific approach to answering my questions have sounded condescending and/or patronizing as well. For example, “You continue to demonstrate the depth of your intellect. Yet another excellent question. Patience, Charity, Patience... we'll get there.” I was a teacher before I retired and learned it was best to let the students guide the lesson with their questions instead of giving them a pat on the head for asking them and then continue to follow an inflexible series of lesson I had planned.
While I do like discussing scripture and am learning to be use the Socratic method when doing so, I found this thread personally frustrating. I will, however, answer the question you did ask me next.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Wanted to mention that when it says "all Israel shall be saved" it means that, Jews who now are believers in Jesus Christ and his finished work shall be saved. That is the essence of the "new covenant" that the mystery describes, i.e. that the Jews and Gentiles shall be one body IN CHRIST. The old covenant Jews who still await the Messiah are simply missing the boat and in danger of eternal fire. The only covenant Jews now have to make them "God's chosen people" (just like the believing Gentiles now) is belief in Jesus Christ; not their DNA, or traditions, or anything else.
I believe this must be explained again, especially since there are many a good bible teacher who still believe that Jews can be saved without Jesus.
Here's an AI analysis of "the mystery" :
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+evidence+is+there+that+Jesus+knew+about+the+mystery+in+Ephesians+3%3A6+before+his+resurrection%3F&sca_esv=32ae3e4c27749343&sxsrf=AHTn8zq51dsxT4BdYwIkxeU48BRkbW51Rg%3A1741863008663&source=hp&ei=YLjSZ564JoyFw8cPvonu0Qg&iflsig=ACkRmUkAAAAAZ9LGcE73IFgy7bK_4Z9cmsICfkShRdF7&ved=0ahUKEwie6IGv8YaMAxWMwvACHb6EO4oQ4dUDCBo&uact=5&oq=what+evidence+is+there+that+Jesus+knew+about+the+mystery+in+Ephesians+3%3A6+before+his+resurrection%3F&gs_lp=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&sclient=gws-wiz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I realize now that I misread what you wrote about Christ knowing the mystery before the crucifixion. You specifically stated he did not (as shown above in blue font). How "God had hidden a mystery—in Scriptures given prior to the Crucifixion" (also highlighted in blue above) is what you are endeavouring to show through this thread. I conflated your two ideas into one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
You’re right. I have sent revvel a post explaining my previous comment regarding his intentions regarding this thread. It’s an “in-my-opinion” post, and I will leave it at that.
Your sentence highlighted above is a good one. The way vp talked about wanting to teach the word like it hadn’t been taught since the first century led me to believe everything was perfectly accurate and agreed upon back then. It was a real eye-opener to realize it was anything but and that the contents of the bible took centuries to be decided upon because of all the disagreements. And even then, it was anything close to being perfectly accurate and continues to be so disagreed upon today.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
My apologies... had to attend to other matters… good to be back at the café.
I read thru your posts. Regardless of your take on me or what I post, honestly, I’m glad you’re here.
And I’m thankful that—after all these years—this café is still open.
And if Scripture proves to be a catalyst for thought, Great. I’ll drink to that.
Back to the main theme:
When we look to the words of the Son, we can also look to the words of His Father. In essence, the Lord God spoke in the First Person throughout the Old Testament—speaking through the prophets. And as He set the precedents, we can look to His precedents to better understand His Son. Additionally, we have the prophets and apostles as witnesses/writers. And case in point: The Parable of the 10 Virgins.
Next: The Lord God & Lord Christ.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
In the Parable of the 10 Virgins, the Son drew upon His Father's Words, His precedents.
1. The Son: “For I have not spoken on My own authority, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. I know that His command is eternal life. Therefore what I say, I say as the Father tells me.” (John 12:49, 50)
2. The Father: “Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My good pleasure.’” (Isa. 46:9, 10)
In the parable, the Son drew upon His Father’s prophecies (of what shall be in the “end”) and His symbols.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
The Witness of the Lord God & Christ: The Fig Tree & Virgin Symbols
The Parable of the 10 Virgins is in the context of the Fig Tree (Matt. 24:32-34).
Why a Fig Tree?
Why Virgins?
Symbols for what?
Our witnesses are:
1. Our Lord God (via Hosea & Jeremiah)*
2. Christ
*Confirming: We will hear from the Lord God (in the First Person) by quoting the 2 prophets.
Perhaps… with this post… The unified voice of the Father and the Son will herald a testimony so unmistakably clear you will feel inspired to review the Parable of the 10 Virgins in light of the harmony between the Old & New Testaments.
Matthew 24: Christ
“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree:…” (Matt. 24:32-34)
Hosea 9: The Lord God, The Fig Tree
“Like grapes in the wilderness, I found Israel. Like the first fruit on the fig tree in its first season, I saw your fathers.” (Hos. 9:10)
Jeremiah 24: The Lord God, The Figs
“The Lord showed me two baskets of figs that were set before the temple of the Lord after Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and the officials of Judah with the carpenters and smiths from Jerusalem and brought them to Babylon. One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe, and the other basket had very rotten figs, which were so rotten they could not be eaten.
“Then the Lord said to me, ‘What do you see, Jeremiah?’
“And I said, ‘Figs, the good figs, very good. And the rotten, very rotten, that are so rotten they cannot be eaten.’
“Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
‘Thus says the Lord the God of Israel: Like these good figs, so I will acknowledge those who are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good. For I will set My eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land. And I will build them up and not pull them down. And I will plant them and not pluck them up. I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.’
‘But as the rotten figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so rotten, says the Lord, so I will forsake Zedekiah the king of Judah and his officials, and the rest of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and those who dwell in the land of Egypt.’” (Jer. 24:1-8)
Then, in Jeremiah 31, the Lord God “sees” Israel again with another symbol—a Virgin—with a promise of hope & celebration.
Jeremiah 31: The Lord God, O Virgin
“The Lord has appeared to him from afar, saying:
‘Indeed, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you. Again I will build you and you will be built, O virgin of Israel. You will again be adorned with your tambourines and shall go forth in the dances of those who make merry.’ (Jer. 31:3, 4)
“For thus says the Lord:
‘Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations;
publish, praise, and say, “O Lord, save Your people, the remnant of Israel.’” (Jer. 31:7)
‘Therefore they will come and sing in the height of Zion, and will be joyful over the goodness of the Lord, for wheat and for wine and for oil and for the young of the flock and of the herd; and their souls will be as a watered garden. And they will not sorrow any more at all. Then the virgin shall rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together; for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.’” (Jer. 31:12, 13)
Consider: The Parable of the 10 Virgins: Entering the kingdom of Heaven is likened to entering a wedding banquet. Compare the illustration/parable to what the Father prophesied for "O Virgin of Israel."
We have the irrefutable witness of the Father and the Son. The Son followed the pattern of symbols given by His Father: the Fig Tree/Figs & 10 Virgins/O Virgin—and these symbols are, of course, symbols for Israel.
Next: The witness of the Lord God & Moses -- The First Deliverer of Israel
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
To set the stage for the witness of the Lord God & Moses…
Matthew 25: The Parable of the 10 Virgins/Galilean Culture
On the Mount of Olives, the Son spoke to His disciples in parables—with relatable Hebrew symbols/language/culture. The kingdom of Heaven is likened to a wedding banquet.
“Those who were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them. But the wise took jars of oil with their lamps.”
In this parable, Christ’s illustration draws upon a Galilean reality: The members of a wedding procession would carry their (oil fired) torches* in the night through the streets to the wedding banquet… And in the parable, it’s the wise virgins—with their torches ablaze—who enter the banquet.
*In the parable, the Greek word—Lampas—means “torch” (i.e. lamppost)—not lamp.
(Another usage: Revelation 8:10: “The third angel sounded, and a great star from heaven, burning like a torch [Lampas].”)
Of course, the question is: What exactly is Christ conveying with this illustration of 10 Virgins & the kingdom of Heaven?
Consider 40+ days later…
Ascension Day
The Son is back on the Mount of Olives with His disciples, and they have the following exchange:
“So when they had come together, they asked Him, ‘Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?’” (Acts 1:6).
Question:
Is it possible/probable the disciples are continuing in the same train of thought—the future (deliverance/restoration) of Israel—that Christ established with the parables of the Fig Tree (Israel) & 10 Virgins (Israel)?
Next: The Witness of the Father, the Son & Moses—the first deliverer of Israel
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Unlikely. "Israel" is the old covenant in this passage. The old covenant was abolished when Christ offered his body and blood as payment for the sins of all mankind that now all mankind, Jews and Gentiles, must agree to/believe in to be saved (new covenant). Now, if you want to refer to the new covenant as today's Israel, that's ok with me. But I believe it can and does spread some confusion about what covenants we are talking about. Thx.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
Oldiesman: Many thanks for your input. It inspired another train of thought.
Christ is the One who handed us the key to “unlock”/shed light on His own prophecies/parables in the Gospels: The Revelation of the Mystery.
There is a mystery for Israel.
And a mystery for the Church.
Looking back to The Torah to the Gospel of John, we see both mysteries, once hidden, revealed by Christ after His Ascension.
The subject of the Parable of the 10 Virgins is the coming kingdom of Heaven (on Earth), which is when the world will witness the restoration of Israel’s kingdom—when the High Priest, Christ, saves Israel & makes atonement for the house of Jacob.
Romans 11: The Mystery: Israel/Matthew 25
When we read the Parable of the 10 Virgins…
This is what will actually come to pass when the prophetic parable is fulfilled:
"For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.” (Rom. 11:25-27)
Paul quoted Isaiah (59:20, 21; 27:9) to reveal the mystery for Israel once hidden in Isaiah’s prophecies. And the Parable of the 10 Virgins is an illustration of this prophetic truth. It will be fulfilled at the second coming to Israel: Matt. 24:27-31.
Hidden in the (prophetic) Parable of the 10 Virgins was the mystery for Israel—not the Church. The literal context (Matt. 24:27-31) and figurative context (Parables of the Fig Tree & 10 Virgins) speak of Israel. These all speak of the mystery for Israel which shall be fulfilled—which includes the kingdom of Israel, restored.
Acts 1
“So when they had come together, they asked Him, ‘Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?’” He said to them, “It is not for you to know the times or the dates, which the Father has fixed by His own authority.” (Acts 1:6,7)
Christ didn’t refute His disciples. He simply said the timing is not yet; it is in the hands of the Father. He determines when the mystery for Israel will be fulfilled. It’s not a question of “if,” but rather, “when.”
Acts 15
James issued the same prophetic statement about the coming restoration of Israel—quoting the prophet Amos. And James did so in the context of the Gentiles being grafted in (revealing the mystery):
“With this the words of the prophets agree. As it is written:
‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up; that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does all these things.’ Known to God are all His works since the beginning of the world.” (Acts 15:15-18)
It is the Revelation of the Mystery that sheds divine light on Matthew 24 & 25—and likewise with Luke 21.
Next: Luke 21/The Fig Tree/10 Virgins
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
Luke 21:20-31 provides witnesses who contribute to the divine truths of the Parable of the 10 Virgins: 100% Israel.
Again, it's the mystery.
I’ll be back with this divine connection.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
Luke 21/The Fig Tree/10 Virgins
Luke 21:20-31: The Mystery for Israel
They will fall by the edge of the sword and will be led away captive to all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:24)
Who are “they”? Israel. What will be trampled on by the Gentiles? Jerusalem. What is the subject of Christ’s prophecy? Israel & Jerusalem.
Compare the terminology used by Christ in Luke 21 to the terminology/mystery for Israel He revealed to Paul in Romans 11.
Romans 11: Paul & Isaiah
For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: “There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.” (Rom. 11:25-27)
What will come to pass when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled?
“There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer” … exactly as Joel prophesied.
Joel 3
The sun and moon darken, and the stars withdraw their radiance. The Lord roars from Zion, and sounds His voice from Jerusalem, and heaven and earth quake. But the Lord is a refuge for His people, and a stronghold for the children of Israel. (Joel 3:15, 16)
Thus, the mystery for “the children of Israel” shall be fulfilled: The Deliverer, Christ, the High Priest will save Israel and remove ungodliness from the house of Jacob. When?
“When these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption is drawing near” (Luke 21:28).
“Your redemption” refers to whom? The context & the mystery: Israel/the house of Jacob.
4 Witnesses—Christ, Paul, Isaiah & Joel—testify that Luke 21:20-28 prophesies of Israel/the house of Jacob.
0 Witnesses—in the Bible—testify to the contrary.
Luke 21: The Fig Tree
“He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees…” (Luke 21:29-31).
As the Lord God revealed to us: The Fig Tree is a symbol for Israel, (Hos. 9:10)—with “good figs” & “rotten figs” (Jer. 24:1-8). And the Fig Tree parable is 100% consistent with the context of Christ’s prophecy & the mystery for Israel: (Luke 21:20-28; Rom. 11:25-27).
Matthew 24 & 25: The Fig Tree
In the Gospel of Luke, Christ established irrefutable, divine truth: The Fig Tree parable symbolically speaks of Israel—and also speaks of the coming redemption for Israel, when the mystery for Israel is fulfilled. As Christ’s truth is universal, this truth applies regardless of which Gospel this parable is found.
Christ: Matthew & Luke
The voice of Christ given through Matthew & Luke provides different pieces of the same puzzle picture: Israel’s redemption, atonement & restoration—elucidated by illustrations, the Fig Tree and 10 Virgins.
Next: Witness of the Father, the Son & Moses—the first deliverer of Israel
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
The Parable of the 10 Virgins
I’ll post on the witness of Moses tomorrow…but let me float a few questions about the parable.
In the parable, the wise virgins enter the banquet and the foolish don’t.
Why don’t the foolish enter?
Why do the wise enter?
What does this illustration of opposites convey?
In other words, what really separates the wise from the foolish?
What did Christ say in the Gospel of Matthew?
Peace.
revvel
Edited by revvelLink to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
The Witness of the Father, the Son & Moses: Midnight
Look at the “time” …
“But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Look, the bridegroom is coming! Come out to meet him!’’’ (Matt. 25:6)
Why “midnight”?
What does “midnight” symbolize in the parable?
What preceded Christ’s parable? Christ’s command: “Watch.”
“Watch therefore….” (Matt. 24:42-44).
What is significant about “midnight” in the Bible? It’s a watch hour.
What is the historical/symbolic significance of “midnight” in the context of the Fig Tree (Israel) & 10 Virgins (Israel)? The Father ordained “deliverance” to come to pass at the “midnight watch hour.”
Exodus 12: The Exodus
At midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon and all the firstborn of livestock. Pharaoh rose up in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians, and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where there was not someone dead.
Then he called for Moses and Aaron at night and said, “Rise up, and get out from among my people, both you and the children of Israel, and go, serve the Lord, as you have said. Also take your flocks and your herds, as you have said, and be gone, and bless me also.” (Exod. 12:29-32)
The Father set the precedent… and the Son followed. Thus, we have the unified voice (again) of the Father and the Son: the midnight watch hour signifies deliverance.
The Hebrews (in Egypt) “watched” by following God’s Word given by Moses—placing lamb’s blood on the doorposts, and thus, the angel of death passed over them—bringing forth deliverance.
And to this very day and time… What do Hebrews ask at Passover? “Why is this night different from all the rest”? Hebrew deliverance at the midnight watch hour is remembered… 3500 years later. Significant? Yes. It’s still branded in the hearts and minds of the followers of Moses who await their Messiah… This solemn act—lamb’s blood on the doorposts—at the time of the Deliverer, Moses, foreshadowed the blood of God’s Lamb, the coming Deliverer, Christ.
The parallel between Israel’s history and future is unmistakable:
Just as the Lord God delivered and gathered the Hebrews through Moses (following the exile in Egypt), so shall the Lord God deliver and gather the sons of Israel through Christ (following the exile to the “four winds” of the Earth). As Moses delivered the Hebrews from Pharaoh, so shall Christ deliver the sons of Israel from the Antichrist (Matt. 24:15, 27-31).
The historical/symbolic significance of “midnight” at the time of Moses, and the prophetic/symbolic significance of “midnight” in the parable given by Christ, tell the same “ancestral story:” Deliverance.
In the Parable of the 10 Virgins, “Midnight” symbolically represents the “Time” of Divine Visitation and Israel’s Deliverance—for the wise virgins who “watched.”
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.