Good point, nolongerlurking. When we are talking about asocial (sociopathic) personality or narcissistic personality, we are talking about Personality Disorders, NOT mental illnesses. A personality disorder, according to those in the mental health field, is an ingrained pattern of behaviors. People who have it may be genetically predisposed to it, the jury is still out on that one. The behavior patterns and thought processes of the disorder are believed to be formed during the early years of life, possibly due to faulty parenting.
Personality disorders are very difficult to treat, mainly because the disordered person thinks nothing is wrong with him and doesn't want to change, it is everyone ELSE who is wrong, in his eyes. It is also hard to diagnose, as PD patients are such good liars. Therapists usually focus on changing the behaviors of the PD person who seeks help in a time of crisis, but the tendency is to devalue the therapist and return to previous patterns once the crisis has past.
I had never intended to equate Personality Disorders with other problems such as depression, OCD, ADHD, neuroses, or even schizophrenia, or the like. PD's are a whole 'nother ball game. Thanks for clarifying, and sorry that we didn't mention that sooner.
I am so sorry that you took offense to that. It wasn't intended. I believe that mental illness is a physical illness as you say like diabetes, and other illness's. There is nothing wrong with having one. My daughter suffers from bipolar. When she is on meds she leads a very productive life. But if she wasn't on them her life would not be productive. But, what vpw obviously had was not a mental illness. What he had was not treatable. And even if he did it was left untreated. I would never say that it was a devil spirit. I guess when I started the thread I did not realize that some would take it that way. So please no insult at all. You are a wonderful person I'm sure. I don't want this to end up as a witchhunt either. Just that it was interesting to see that there was definintely wrong somewhere!!!! And that we could learn from it. Nolongerlurking thanks for sharing that. It took guts in here to share that and I appreciate it.
thank you so much nolongerlurking. I am having fun and learning quite a bit. Although I have been out of twi for 16 years I realized I have even more healing to do. My partner was not in twi so its hard to talk to him about it. He is a very understand fellow so that has helped with our relationship. He is the one that brought up about vpw being a sociopath to me. Gosh, someone from the outside looking in. What he sees in me he says is since I was in twi for a lot of time is that I'm too trusting and too niave. He says that I've been sheltered for most of my life. Which is true if you think about it. Those of us that were in it for a considerable amount of time wasn't allowed to listen to outside music, watch tv, or hear the news because it was too negative. Yes we were sheltered in a lot of ways. About five years ago I went to this therapist said that she felt I was angry because I missed the times that others went through their teens and early adulthood and I wanted to make up for the time. Oh I did that for a while and now have been able to settle down. I couldn't be in my mid fourties and act like a teen.....lol
Since I bought up d.s. I want nolongerlurking to know that i agree totally with her/him.
My point is intended for twi innies lurking here to realize how sick their religious organization really is. They believe VPW & LCM teachings about mental illness and ds possession. Therefore, they should conclude that twi needs an excorcism or they should leave twi at their earliest convenience.
Had to bring this thread up since we are in this phase once again. Also, dot and alfakat had brought it up. It really explains a lot for the new ones here. Thanks!!
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
It's quite possible he had mental illness, but he definitely had character defects. And the character defects were the foundation for how he interpreted his world, "God's" Word and manipulated us.
"It's impossible to overemphasize the importance of narcissists' lack of empathy. It colors everything about them. I have observed very closely some narcissists I've loved, and their inability to pay attention when someone else is talking is so striking that it has often seemed to me that they have neurological problems that affect their cognitive functioning. These are educated people with high IQs, who've had ordinary middle-class backgrounds and schooling, and their thinking is not only illogical but weird: with narcissists, you have to know them pretty well to understand their behavior. For instance, they always fill in their gaps (which make up just about the entirety of their visible life) with bits of behavior, ideas, tastes, opinions, etc., borrowed from someone else whom they regard as an authority. Their authoritative sources, as far as I know, are always people they've actually known, not something from a book, for instance, and narcissists' opinions may actually come from someone you know, too, but who is not to you obviously an authority on the matter at hand, so narcissists can seem totally arbitrary, virtually random in their motivations and reasoning.
They are evidently transfixed by a static fantasy image of themselves, like Narcissus gazing at his reflection, and this produces an odd kind of stillness and passivity. Because their inner life is so restricted and essentially dead, it doesn't contain images of how to live a full life -- these things are not important to them, they expect others to look after day-to-day chores, they resent wasting their specialness on common things, they don't put their heart into their work (though they'll tell you how many hours they put into it), they borrow their opinions and preferences and tastes from whomever strikes them as authoritative at the moment."
"There are different theories of how narcissists are made. Some psychologists trace NPD to early infantile neglect or abuse, and some blame over-indulgence and indiscriminate praise by parents who don't set limits on what's acceptable from their children. Others say that NPD shows up in adolescence. Some say narcissists tend to peak around middle age and then mellow out. Others say that narcissists stay pretty much the same except they tend to depression as they get older and their grandiose fantasies are not supported, plus they're not as good-looking as they used to be.
The narcissists I've known have apparently always been "that way" and they get worse as they get older, with dramatic regression of their personas after the deaths of their parents and other personal authority figures who have previously exerted some control over the narcissists' bad behavior. And, yes, chronic depression gets to be obvious at least by their forties but may have always been present. Depressed narcissists blame the world, of course, and not themselves for their personal disappointments.
Essentially, narcissists are unable or unwilling to trust either the world or other people to meet their needs. Perhaps they were born to parents unable to connect emotionally and, thus, as infants learned not to let another person be essential to them in any way. Perhaps NPD starts later, when intrusive or abusive parents make it dangerous for the child to accept other people's opinions and valuations. Maybe it comes from a childhood environment of being treated like royalty or little gods.
Whatever the case, narcissists have made the terrible choice not to love. In their imaginations, they are complete unto themselves, perfect and not in need of anything anyone else can give them. (NB: Narcissists do not count their real lives -- i.e., what they do every day and the people they do it with -- as worth anything.) Their lives are impoverished and sterile; the price they pay for their golden fantasies is high: they'll never share a dream for two."
"Adult narcissists can be as demanding of your time and energy as little babies but without the gratification of their growing or learning anything from what they suck from you. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time."
" It is also essential that you keep emotional distance from narcissists. They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love.
But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding -- and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions.
Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off -- just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door."
"If people you work with are narcissists, you will be wise to keep an eye on them, if just for your own protection, because they don't think very well, no matter what their IQs, they feel that the rules (of anything) don't apply to them, and they will always cut corners and cheat wherever they think they can get away with it, not to mention alienating co-workers, clients, and customers by their arrogance, lies, malice, and off-the-wall griping. Narcissists are threatened and enraged by trivial disagreements, mistakes, and misunderstandings, plus they have evil mouths and will say ANYTHING, so if you continue to live or work with narcissists, expect to have to clean up after them, expect to lose friends over them, expect big trouble sooner or later."
"Narcissists lack a mature conscience and seem to be restrained only by fear of being punished or of damaging their reputations -- though, again, this can be obscure to casual observation if you don't know what they think their reputations are, and what they believe others think of them may be way out of touch with reality [see remarks on John Cheever elsewhere on this page]. Their moral intelligence is about at the level of a bright five- or six-year-old; the only rules they recognize are things that have been specifically required, permitted, prohibited, or disapproved of by authority figures they know personally. Anyhow, narcissists can't be counted on not to do something just because it's wrong, illegal, or will hurt someone, as long as they think that they can get away with it or that you can't stop them or punish them (i.e., they don't care what you think unless they're afraid of you). "
"Narcissists are generally contemptuous of others. This seems to spring, at base, from their general lack of empathy, and it comes out as (at best) a dismissive attitude towards other people's feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, property, work, etc. It is also connected to their overall negative outlook on life. "
"Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) -- or else they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again -- it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." -- sorry, folks, I get lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination.
Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave -- narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then -- well, it's kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too.
They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)" Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice.
The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence -- this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while -- a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) -- the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change. Therapies work at all only when the individual wants to change and, though narcissists hate their real selves, they don't want to change -- they want the world to change.
And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time. There are usually a favored few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won't brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they'll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don't know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they've feared die off, and there's less and less outside influence to keep them in check. "
"As Freud said of narcissists, these people act like they're in love with themselves. And they are in love with an ideal image of themselves -- or they want you to be in love with their pretend self, it's hard to tell just what's going on. Like anyone in love, their attention and energy are drawn to the beloved and away from everyday practicalities.
Narcissists' fantasies are static -- they've fallen in love with an image in a mirror or, more accurately, in a pool of water, so that movement causes the image to dissolve into ripples; to see the adored reflection they must remain perfectly still. Narcissists' fantasies are tableaux or scenes, stage sets; narcissists are hung up on a particular picture that they think reflects their true selves (as opposed to the real self -- warts and all). Narcissists don't see themselves doing anything except being adored, and they don't see anyone else doing anything except adoring them. Moreover, they don't see these images as potentials that they may some day be able to live out, if they get lucky or everything goes right: they see these pictures as the real way they want to be seen."
"Narcissists I've known also have odd religious ideas, in particular believing that they are God's special favorites somehow; God loves them, so they are exempted from ordinary rules and obligations: God loves them and wants them to be the way they are, so they can do anything they feel like -- though, note, the narcissist's God has much harsher rules for everyone else, including you."
"Narcissists feel entitled to whatever they can take. They expect privileges and indulgences, and they also feel entitled to exploit other people without any trace of reciprocation."
"Some narcissists spend extravagantly in order to impress people, keep up grandiose pretentions, or buy favorable treatment, and some narcissists overspend, bankrupt themselves, and lose everything. My personal experience is that narcissists are stingy, mean, frugal, niggardly to the point of eccentricity. This is a person who won't spend $1.50 on a greeting card but will instead send you an advertising flyer that came with the newspaper."
I read a psych paper - I thought I had it but it seems I deleted a bunch of stuff, I can find it because it was published in one of the major journals - that stated it takes about 3 years to dismantle a narcissist's delusions and help them become an emotionally functional person.
I concluded a few months ago that my ex-husband is narcissistic, and recently that he fashioned his persona after our FC and LCM. it was nice living in HELL for so long. now it makes total sense that vpw and LCM were/are narcissistic (seems leaders of cults usually are) and not sociopathic. the narcissism key was the one that finally unlocked the floodgates of understanding for me.
I guess VPW's life and ministry serve as a warning of how bad things may get when mental illness is left untreated and sinful behavior is left unchecked.
I just want to clarify something right off. Narcissistic personality disorder is NOT mental illness. Mental illness is when a normal, mentally-healthy person has emotional problems on top of a normal personality. It implies that, with proper treatment, the normal personality will be able to flourish again.
Personality-disordered people were never normal, not since they were teens or perhaps even before. In the case of VP, we have heard stories from New Knoxville townies that he was a bully and a daredevil as a teenager, and a womanizer already by his twenties. One can also have co-morbidity, with personality traits of other disorders, such as paranoid, borderline, histrionic, or antisocial (sociopathic) personalities.
(Excuse my use of the male pronoun here. Women can be narcissists, too.)
The Narcissist usually only goes to a therapist if he has been deeply wounded, and his false self exposed. But he usually quits before the therapist can get very far, because he thinks that it is everybody else's fault that he is not happy. If he stays, he may be taught to stop some of the behaviors that injure others, but it is arguable if he is ever truly cured.
The Narcissist feels completely justified in using you. He thinks everybody uses everybody, just like he does.
-- Shaz
Hey, Mo,
Then never reveal to that coworker anything that might be used against you, because a Narcissist stores facts that might be useful against someone later.
Remember VP and our "From Birth to the Corps" papers?
HI VICKLES!! Thanks for sharing, like you said, your ex husband still believes VP, my husband thinks he never had sin.
I was reading wordwolf's definition of narcissism, I found it very imformative, My soon to be ex just could not seem to tell the truth and his lies were always justified somehow.
There was never any empathy, I lost 2 kids and I would cry and he would just get angry and walk away. He had to hang on the coat tails of others.
I think that V.P was one and that some of his way corps developed alot of his characteristics. It is kinda like a child who grew up watching his father behave a certain way and he emulates that.
You are right we are all in different stages of healing and I think all were affected or infected!!!!
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excathedra
thank you nolongerlurking
you are right
big dif when it comes down to sociopath, mental illness, chracter flaws, etc, etc
if it appeared as though i lumped it all together, i sincerely apologize
i have mental illness and i thank god every day that i am fine
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shazdancer
Good point, nolongerlurking. When we are talking about asocial (sociopathic) personality or narcissistic personality, we are talking about Personality Disorders, NOT mental illnesses. A personality disorder, according to those in the mental health field, is an ingrained pattern of behaviors. People who have it may be genetically predisposed to it, the jury is still out on that one. The behavior patterns and thought processes of the disorder are believed to be formed during the early years of life, possibly due to faulty parenting.
Personality disorders are very difficult to treat, mainly because the disordered person thinks nothing is wrong with him and doesn't want to change, it is everyone ELSE who is wrong, in his eyes. It is also hard to diagnose, as PD patients are such good liars. Therapists usually focus on changing the behaviors of the PD person who seeks help in a time of crisis, but the tendency is to devalue the therapist and return to previous patterns once the crisis has past.
I had never intended to equate Personality Disorders with other problems such as depression, OCD, ADHD, neuroses, or even schizophrenia, or the like. PD's are a whole 'nother ball game. Thanks for clarifying, and sorry that we didn't mention that sooner.
Regards,
shaz
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nolongerlurking
Sorry about the double post guys and gals. It wasn't intentional. Apparently I clicked the quote icon instead of the edit icon. Please excuse....
nolongerlurking
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vickles
nolongerlurking,
I am so sorry that you took offense to that. It wasn't intended. I believe that mental illness is a physical illness as you say like diabetes, and other illness's. There is nothing wrong with having one. My daughter suffers from bipolar. When she is on meds she leads a very productive life. But if she wasn't on them her life would not be productive. But, what vpw obviously had was not a mental illness. What he had was not treatable. And even if he did it was left untreated. I would never say that it was a devil spirit. I guess when I started the thread I did not realize that some would take it that way. So please no insult at all. You are a wonderful person I'm sure. I don't want this to end up as a witchhunt either. Just that it was interesting to see that there was definintely wrong somewhere!!!! And that we could learn from it. Nolongerlurking thanks for sharing that. It took guts in here to share that and I appreciate it.
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vickles
Invisibledan,
Thanks for sharing that thread. I looked it up and sure enough there it was. Thanks
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vickles
Hey anyone, do you know how to change the title of this thread? I think it would be a good idea.
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fortunateone
http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/d4class.htm
The Pysch diagnostic book is called DSM IV
The many symptoms result in a complex diagnosis
so it can be coded properly.
FORTUNATEONE to be out of TWI
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nolongerlurking
Vickles, Shaz, Ex, no offense taken. Just setting the record straight on mental illness. If I came across as offended, I didn't mean to.
And, by the way, welcome to greasespot vickles!
:)-->
nolongerlurking
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vickles
thank you so much nolongerlurking. I am having fun and learning quite a bit. Although I have been out of twi for 16 years I realized I have even more healing to do. My partner was not in twi so its hard to talk to him about it. He is a very understand fellow so that has helped with our relationship. He is the one that brought up about vpw being a sociopath to me. Gosh, someone from the outside looking in. What he sees in me he says is since I was in twi for a lot of time is that I'm too trusting and too niave. He says that I've been sheltered for most of my life. Which is true if you think about it. Those of us that were in it for a considerable amount of time wasn't allowed to listen to outside music, watch tv, or hear the news because it was too negative. Yes we were sheltered in a lot of ways. About five years ago I went to this therapist said that she felt I was angry because I missed the times that others went through their teens and early adulthood and I wanted to make up for the time. Oh I did that for a while and now have been able to settle down. I couldn't be in my mid fourties and act like a teen.....lol
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Golfie
Since I bought up d.s. I want nolongerlurking to know that i agree totally with her/him.
My point is intended for twi innies lurking here to realize how sick their religious organization really is. They believe VPW & LCM teachings about mental illness and ds possession. Therefore, they should conclude that twi needs an excorcism or they should leave twi at their earliest convenience.
peace
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MillionsNowSmoking
good thread!
to quote Perry Ferrell:
"...and I'm going 'bout my business...and I'm wonderin' what I'm missin'.."
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excathedra
vickles, go to your first post and in bottom righthand corner is a little folder and a pencil with an eraser on it, it's the middle one
click on that
and there you can edit your title
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vickles
Ok all I changed the title. Does it sound better?
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excathedra
well you could take out the "or" and put the "and" over there in its place
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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vickles
Had to bring this thread up since we are in this phase once again. Also, dot and alfakat had brought it up. It really explains a lot for the new ones here. Thanks!!
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Rocky
Well, I think NLWorking hit the nail on the head.
It's quite possible he had mental illness, but he definitely had character defects. And the character defects were the foundation for how he interpreted his world, "God's" Word and manipulated us.
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Belle
JK, don't know if you've seen this thread or not, but thought you might find it interesting. :)
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WordWolf
I thought it was a good time to discuss narcissism again and how it reminds so many of us of the higher-ups
of twi.
I thought this layman's comments were very interesting.
(Italics mine.)
==================
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/howto.html
"It's impossible to overemphasize the importance of narcissists' lack of empathy. It colors everything about them. I have observed very closely some narcissists I've loved, and their inability to pay attention when someone else is talking is so striking that it has often seemed to me that they have neurological problems that affect their cognitive functioning. These are educated people with high IQs, who've had ordinary middle-class backgrounds and schooling, and their thinking is not only illogical but weird: with narcissists, you have to know them pretty well to understand their behavior. For instance, they always fill in their gaps (which make up just about the entirety of their visible life) with bits of behavior, ideas, tastes, opinions, etc., borrowed from someone else whom they regard as an authority. Their authoritative sources, as far as I know, are always people they've actually known, not something from a book, for instance, and narcissists' opinions may actually come from someone you know, too, but who is not to you obviously an authority on the matter at hand, so narcissists can seem totally arbitrary, virtually random in their motivations and reasoning.
They are evidently transfixed by a static fantasy image of themselves, like Narcissus gazing at his reflection, and this produces an odd kind of stillness and passivity. Because their inner life is so restricted and essentially dead, it doesn't contain images of how to live a full life -- these things are not important to them, they expect others to look after day-to-day chores, they resent wasting their specialness on common things, they don't put their heart into their work (though they'll tell you how many hours they put into it), they borrow their opinions and preferences and tastes from whomever strikes them as authoritative at the moment."
"There are different theories of how narcissists are made. Some psychologists trace NPD to early infantile neglect or abuse, and some blame over-indulgence and indiscriminate praise by parents who don't set limits on what's acceptable from their children. Others say that NPD shows up in adolescence. Some say narcissists tend to peak around middle age and then mellow out. Others say that narcissists stay pretty much the same except they tend to depression as they get older and their grandiose fantasies are not supported, plus they're not as good-looking as they used to be.
The narcissists I've known have apparently always been "that way" and they get worse as they get older, with dramatic regression of their personas after the deaths of their parents and other personal authority figures who have previously exerted some control over the narcissists' bad behavior. And, yes, chronic depression gets to be obvious at least by their forties but may have always been present. Depressed narcissists blame the world, of course, and not themselves for their personal disappointments.
Essentially, narcissists are unable or unwilling to trust either the world or other people to meet their needs. Perhaps they were born to parents unable to connect emotionally and, thus, as infants learned not to let another person be essential to them in any way. Perhaps NPD starts later, when intrusive or abusive parents make it dangerous for the child to accept other people's opinions and valuations. Maybe it comes from a childhood environment of being treated like royalty or little gods.
Whatever the case, narcissists have made the terrible choice not to love. In their imaginations, they are complete unto themselves, perfect and not in need of anything anyone else can give them. (NB: Narcissists do not count their real lives -- i.e., what they do every day and the people they do it with -- as worth anything.) Their lives are impoverished and sterile; the price they pay for their golden fantasies is high: they'll never share a dream for two."
"Adult narcissists can be as demanding of your time and energy as little babies but without the gratification of their growing or learning anything from what they suck from you. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time."
" It is also essential that you keep emotional distance from narcissists. They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love.
But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding -- and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions.
Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off -- just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door."
"If people you work with are narcissists, you will be wise to keep an eye on them, if just for your own protection, because they don't think very well, no matter what their IQs, they feel that the rules (of anything) don't apply to them, and they will always cut corners and cheat wherever they think they can get away with it, not to mention alienating co-workers, clients, and customers by their arrogance, lies, malice, and off-the-wall griping. Narcissists are threatened and enraged by trivial disagreements, mistakes, and misunderstandings, plus they have evil mouths and will say ANYTHING, so if you continue to live or work with narcissists, expect to have to clean up after them, expect to lose friends over them, expect big trouble sooner or later."
"Narcissists lack a mature conscience and seem to be restrained only by fear of being punished or of damaging their reputations -- though, again, this can be obscure to casual observation if you don't know what they think their reputations are, and what they believe others think of them may be way out of touch with reality [see remarks on John Cheever elsewhere on this page]. Their moral intelligence is about at the level of a bright five- or six-year-old; the only rules they recognize are things that have been specifically required, permitted, prohibited, or disapproved of by authority figures they know personally. Anyhow, narcissists can't be counted on not to do something just because it's wrong, illegal, or will hurt someone, as long as they think that they can get away with it or that you can't stop them or punish them (i.e., they don't care what you think unless they're afraid of you). "
"Narcissists are generally contemptuous of others. This seems to spring, at base, from their general lack of empathy, and it comes out as (at best) a dismissive attitude towards other people's feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, property, work, etc. It is also connected to their overall negative outlook on life. "
"Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) -- or else they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again -- it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." -- sorry, folks, I get lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination.
Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave -- narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then -- well, it's kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too.
They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)" Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice.
The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence -- this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while -- a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) -- the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change. Therapies work at all only when the individual wants to change and, though narcissists hate their real selves, they don't want to change -- they want the world to change.
And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time. There are usually a favored few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won't brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they'll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don't know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they've feared die off, and there's less and less outside influence to keep them in check. "
"As Freud said of narcissists, these people act like they're in love with themselves. And they are in love with an ideal image of themselves -- or they want you to be in love with their pretend self, it's hard to tell just what's going on. Like anyone in love, their attention and energy are drawn to the beloved and away from everyday practicalities.
Narcissists' fantasies are static -- they've fallen in love with an image in a mirror or, more accurately, in a pool of water, so that movement causes the image to dissolve into ripples; to see the adored reflection they must remain perfectly still. Narcissists' fantasies are tableaux or scenes, stage sets; narcissists are hung up on a particular picture that they think reflects their true selves (as opposed to the real self -- warts and all). Narcissists don't see themselves doing anything except being adored, and they don't see anyone else doing anything except adoring them. Moreover, they don't see these images as potentials that they may some day be able to live out, if they get lucky or everything goes right: they see these pictures as the real way they want to be seen."
"Narcissists I've known also have odd religious ideas, in particular believing that they are God's special favorites somehow; God loves them, so they are exempted from ordinary rules and obligations: God loves them and wants them to be the way they are, so they can do anything they feel like -- though, note, the narcissist's God has much harsher rules for everyone else, including you."
"Narcissists feel entitled to whatever they can take. They expect privileges and indulgences, and they also feel entitled to exploit other people without any trace of reciprocation."
"Some narcissists spend extravagantly in order to impress people, keep up grandiose pretentions, or buy favorable treatment, and some narcissists overspend, bankrupt themselves, and lose everything. My personal experience is that narcissists are stingy, mean, frugal, niggardly to the point of eccentricity. This is a person who won't spend $1.50 on a greeting card but will instead send you an advertising flyer that came with the newspaper."
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Does any of this sound familiar to any of you?
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outandabout
I have read the narcissists are very rarely cured.
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potato
I read a psych paper - I thought I had it but it seems I deleted a bunch of stuff, I can find it because it was published in one of the major journals - that stated it takes about 3 years to dismantle a narcissist's delusions and help them become an emotionally functional person.
I concluded a few months ago that my ex-husband is narcissistic, and recently that he fashioned his persona after our FC and LCM. it was nice living in HELL for so long. now it makes total sense that vpw and LCM were/are narcissistic (seems leaders of cults usually are) and not sociopathic. the narcissism key was the one that finally unlocked the floodgates of understanding for me.
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T-Bone
Cool thread, Vickles!
I guess VPW's life and ministry serve as a warning of how bad things may get when mental illness is left untreated and sinful behavior is left unchecked.
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templelady
Thanks, I never really thought about it before, but I have a co-worker who definitely displays narcisstic qualities. It explains much
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shazdancer
Nice find, WordWolf.
I just want to clarify something right off. Narcissistic personality disorder is NOT mental illness. Mental illness is when a normal, mentally-healthy person has emotional problems on top of a normal personality. It implies that, with proper treatment, the normal personality will be able to flourish again.
Personality-disordered people were never normal, not since they were teens or perhaps even before. In the case of VP, we have heard stories from New Knoxville townies that he was a bully and a daredevil as a teenager, and a womanizer already by his twenties. One can also have co-morbidity, with personality traits of other disorders, such as paranoid, borderline, histrionic, or antisocial (sociopathic) personalities.
(Excuse my use of the male pronoun here. Women can be narcissists, too.)
The Narcissist usually only goes to a therapist if he has been deeply wounded, and his false self exposed. But he usually quits before the therapist can get very far, because he thinks that it is everybody else's fault that he is not happy. If he stays, he may be taught to stop some of the behaviors that injure others, but it is arguable if he is ever truly cured.
The Narcissist feels completely justified in using you. He thinks everybody uses everybody, just like he does.
-- Shaz
Hey, Mo,
Then never reveal to that coworker anything that might be used against you, because a Narcissist stores facts that might be useful against someone later.
Remember VP and our "From Birth to the Corps" papers?
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pinklady
HI VICKLES!! Thanks for sharing, like you said, your ex husband still believes VP, my husband thinks he never had sin.
I was reading wordwolf's definition of narcissism, I found it very imformative, My soon to be ex just could not seem to tell the truth and his lies were always justified somehow.
There was never any empathy, I lost 2 kids and I would cry and he would just get angry and walk away. He had to hang on the coat tails of others.
I think that V.P was one and that some of his way corps developed alot of his characteristics. It is kinda like a child who grew up watching his father behave a certain way and he emulates that.
You are right we are all in different stages of healing and I think all were affected or infected!!!!
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