I think there are mental illnesses and characterlogical deficits. Mental illness is sometimes treatable. Characterlogical deficits rarely are....VP is in the second catagory...
I can't find a good definition of the term. Maybe someone has one. It basically deals with one's emotional realm. The way one views the world and life experiences. It also deals with behaviors and healthy levels of shame and conscience. It is said people with these types of difficulties lack conscience, are more suspicious and/or threatened of others. The origin is usually childhood difficulties and developmental problems.
I am only touching on this topic...I am not qualified...
Quite possible, and maybe even likely, but probably a little more than just a little more "mentally ill" than many of us who blindly or not so blindly followed him and TWI for large chunks of our lives.
I only met VPW a couple of times and was not privy to his behind the scenes behavior. But if only half of the accounts are true, then he he had some pretty serious "character flaws."
I dunno if Weirwille was mentally ill or fell into evil or both. But I do think he knew right from wrong and did CHOOSE to do wrong! I believe he knew enough to know that giving alcohol to minors was WRONG. He knew getting girls drunk after a Bible teaching was not ethical.
I think David Koresh was a lunatic... To me Weirwille seemed more in control of his bad behavior. Like it was intentional.
Maybe he was a sociopath; I think definitely narcissistic.
In support of our troops,
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 29, 2003 at 8:52.]
its interesting that you brought narcisstic, so I looked it up and thought I would copy what I found....so here it is if your interested.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as a superior without commensurate achievements)
is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-staus people (or institutions)
requires excessive admiration
has a sense of entitlement,i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectatons
is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with feelings and needs of others
is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
here is another that is more interesting. I looked up the word sociopath, by gosh I think I've got it.....
Profile of a Sociopath
A number of mind-manipulating cult leaders may exhibit many of the behavioral characteristics of a sociopath-an outstanding ability to charm and seduce followers. Since they appear apparently normal, they are not easily recognizable as deviant or disturbed. Although only a trained professional can make a diagnosis, it is important to be able to recognize the personality type in order to avoid further abuse. These traits also apply to a one-on-one cultic relationship.
Glibness/Superficial Charm
Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally.
Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims
Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance. Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the 'spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality
Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistant basis. Can create and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests.
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises
Incapacity For Love
While they talk about "God's love" they are unable to give or receive it. Since they do not believe in the geniunes of their followers' love, they are very harsh in testing it from their devotees and expect them to feel guilt for their failings. Expects unconditional surrender.
Need for stimulation
Living on edge, yet testing the beliefs of their followers with bizarre rules, punishments and behaviors. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal
Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to emphasize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Their skills are used to exploit, abuse and exer power. Since the follower cannot believe their leader would callously hurt them, they rationalize the abuse. When devotees become aware of the exploitation it feels like a "spiritual rape" to them.
Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. The followers only see them as near perfect.
Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends, aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devatation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blame their followers or others outside their group. Blame reinforces passivity and obedience and produces guilt, shame, terror and conformity in the followers.
Promisuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Totalist leaders frequently practice promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. This is usually kept hidden from all but the inner circle. Stringent sexual control of their followers, such as forced breakups and divorces, removal of children from parents, rules for dating, etc.
Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future. Many groups claim as their goal world-domination or other utopian promises. Great contrast between the leader's opulent lifestyle and the followers' impoverishment. Support by gifts and donations from the followers who are pressured to give through fear and guilt. Highly sensitive to their own pain and health
Criminal or Entrpreneurial Versatility
Changes their image and that of the group as needed to avoid prosecution and to increase income and to recruit a range of members. Is able to adapt or relocate as needed to preserve the group. Can resurface later with a new name, a new front group and a new twist on the scam
Other Related Qualities:
Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional apprearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises depostic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to jusify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (repect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world
The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare
I hope you all don't mind that it was so long....It was just so interesting that I just had to post this.....thanks for your patience!!!
Vickles - Just to let you know there are some very BIG fans of VPW here, do not let them rattle you. I am sure they will be defending VPW ~ because they always do!
Answer them, ignore them, pray for them whatever, just a heads up so when the crap hits the fan you will not be caught off guard!
Freeborn, lol It sounds like my ex also. And he is still is a fan of vpw. mmmmmm Did we have a lot of sociopaths in twi? Maybe so.
Dot, thanks for the warning. I think I understand why they still believe in him. I went through that also when I first left.
We are all in different stages of healing. Sometimes its hard to realize that we followed someone that actually had these problems. If people didn't have the opportunity to spend time with him then it would be harder to acknowledge. I know that some believe it was the changing of leadership that was the problem. I'm sorry folks but the problems were there from the very beginning. We just didn't see it. That is hard to admit that we were snookered and maybe did some wrongs in the name of Christ. I know I did. All I have to say is if they believe it or not its up to them. We all are free to believe what we want to and hopefully those that do still believe in vpw will come around sometime. But please remember this, if we are born again then we are all believers. Just because I don't believe in vpw and his work does not mean that I'm any less than you are. Nor does it mean that I am greater than you. God loves us all whether or not we believe in the same writings. You and I are the same as a christian that is baptist, methodist, lutheran, catholic, and etc. We are no more special than any other son or daughter of God. Or I should say that we are all special including the baptists, methodists, lutherans, catholics, and the etc's.
reading that stuff is like reading his resume for godssake
ok when i had "-teen" still attached to my age this mf held my hand and let me cry and cry about past (sex)abuse in my life as a kid
then came the old.... god wants you to know what it's really like to be loved.... not used.... etc etc etc see why i'm an ex-etc ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
the descriptions are so fitting i can't vote on one, but if i had to, i would say, Incapacity For Love, because that covers so much
how sad and sick is that love was all i wanted
**
i don't want to hear how sorry anyone feels and i don't want to be called the patron saint of sexually abused gals
**
ok ? i am just talking about my life ok? be it for me or for someone else who comes along....
I think that is all we wanted and we mistook everything for God's love. Yes it is sad and sick. I don't think too many can deny that they have seen these things if they are honest with themselves, do you?
Given that we see narcissism/sociopathy traits in VPW's life, pretend for a moment that he is still alive. How should we treat him? Should we try to empathize? Should we rebuke him (or M&A him) and warn others? Should we work with him quietly behind the scenes and let him go on preaching and teaching? Should we cast out devil spirits?
Was just wondering, in case I meet another disordered personality some day...
quote:Given that we see narcissism/sociopathy traits in VPW's life, pretend for a moment that he is still alive. How should we treat him? Should we try to empathize? Should we rebuke him (or M&A him) and warn others? Should we work with him quietly behind the scenes and let him go on preaching and teaching? Should we cast out devil spirits?
Good question. I am no expert, but I do not think the rehabilitation rate is too good for folks like VPW. You cannot work with someone who does not want to be worked with or does not see the problem. One of the symptoms of narccissim, sociopathy and alcoholism is that the person does not see that they have a problem. It is everyone else that has the problem. Once this kind of person is in a position of ultimate authority like VPW or LCM in TWI, they will run over and abuse folks until they die or until they get the boot.
You might try an exorcism, but if it does not take, I'd run like hell. Most likely, you'll be the one getting M & A'd. -- :D-->
Suppose VPW's abnormal behavior was not mental, but spiritual. Didn't VPW teach us that mental illness is really possesion by devil spirits? VPW was often guilty of the same things he accused others of.
When VPW died, to whom did did all those devil spirits go?
Well, for one thing I think it would be up to you what you wanted to do. I mean if you wanted to go on quietly to go on behind the scenes. I for one would leave and not have anything to do with the guy. I wouldn't mark and avoid. But I would go on with life and read the Bible for myself. This is a big world after all.
Ok, I wasn't going to say anything in this thread, but I can contain myself NO LONGER. :D-->
Let's get this straight... let's not put such a huge negative spin on mental illness here ok? I HAVE A MENTAL ILLNESS, as do lots of others here at gs and other ex-way places. In fact, LOTS OF PEOPLE all over the country and the world suffer from mental illnesses of various types and severities. The more the stigma of mental illness melts away in light of recent research, the more people are coming out of the closet and admitting they they are affected by such a disorder. Mental illness is just about as prevalent as diabetes. Mental illness is caused by chemical malfunctions/imbalances in the brain, which is an organic organ of the physical body. Pleeeaaassseee, let's leave the middle ages behind here. Is diabetes, or heart disease, or the flu caused by devil spirits????? NOT. Many mental illnesses can now be successfully treated by modern medicine. Thankfully, mine can, and because of it, I can lead a normal, happy, healthy life. Unfortunately, not all mental illnesses can be treated at this point in time. Also, we cannot force people who would benefit from medical intervention to comply with the prescribed treatment. Untreated diabetics will die. Untreated mental patients have other problems. Unfortunately, most of the time ad untreated mental patient has a HUGE affect on the people around him.
Rotten behaviour, or even criminal behaviour resulting from mental illness should not be excused. But it should be understood for what it is. People with mental illnesses should be understood and helped to the extent that help is possible. If help is not possible, they should be removed from society at large to prevent them from hurting others, but they should still be understood rather than condemned for their problems.
There are, on the other hand, people who are just plain rotten, who do NOT suffer from a mental illness. People who just simply choose to hate. Let's not lump all these guys and gals into the same loaf. The difference between the rotten, the strange, and the mentally ill is very difficult to distinguish even by highly trained and highly experienced individuals. Lay people don't have a prayer. So please, let's try to treat people with compassion like Jesus Christ did. And if such people hurt us or others, they should simply be seen as unhealthy to be around and left alone.
I am not a bad person. I have a productive job wherein I contribute to society. I have two kids who me and my hubby of 14 years are putting thru college and high school soon-to-be-college respectively. VeePee may have had a mental illness, but there had to be something more to it than that. I think the character of an individual plays a BIG role in the effect a mental illness might have on his or her own life as well as the lives of those around them.
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excathedra
hi vickles
oh you are definitely NOT alone in your thinking at all at all at all
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excathedra
actually i think it comes up a lot here
i just looked at the thread in this section called "is BRAT a gift ministry" or something
anyhow toward the bottom of page 1, there are posts about codependency, alcoholism, bipolar and stuff re: victormog
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excathedra
ps. i am working in the mental health field
i'm the field
;)-->
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vickles
thanks excathreda for replying....I will look it up on that thread. I'm glad to find I may not be off base.
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karmicdebt
I think there are mental illnesses and characterlogical deficits. Mental illness is sometimes treatable. Characterlogical deficits rarely are....VP is in the second catagory...
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vickles
would you please explain what characterlogical means? It sounds interesting. Thanks
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karmicdebt
I can't find a good definition of the term. Maybe someone has one. It basically deals with one's emotional realm. The way one views the world and life experiences. It also deals with behaviors and healthy levels of shame and conscience. It is said people with these types of difficulties lack conscience, are more suspicious and/or threatened of others. The origin is usually childhood difficulties and developmental problems.
I am only touching on this topic...I am not qualified...
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Goey
VPW "mentally ill" ?
Quite possible, and maybe even likely, but probably a little more than just a little more "mentally ill" than many of us who blindly or not so blindly followed him and TWI for large chunks of our lives.
I only met VPW a couple of times and was not privy to his behind the scenes behavior. But if only half of the accounts are true, then he he had some pretty serious "character flaws."
Habitual liar, plaigerist, sexual deviant, adulterer, cult leader, narccisistic, sociopath, depressed, histrionic, alcoholic...
I have heard first-hand accounts of behaviours that may lead some to conclude all of these things.
But these are psycological descriptions, the Bible just calls this kind of person a ravening wolf in sheep's clothing.
Goey
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Dot Matrix
I dunno if Weirwille was mentally ill or fell into evil or both. But I do think he knew right from wrong and did CHOOSE to do wrong! I believe he knew enough to know that giving alcohol to minors was WRONG. He knew getting girls drunk after a Bible teaching was not ethical.
I think David Koresh was a lunatic... To me Weirwille seemed more in control of his bad behavior. Like it was intentional.
Maybe he was a sociopath; I think definitely narcissistic.
In support of our troops,
Dot Matrix
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 29, 2003 at 8:52.]
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vickles
its interesting that you brought narcisstic, so I looked it up and thought I would copy what I found....so here it is if your interested.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as a superior without commensurate achievements)
is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-staus people (or institutions)
requires excessive admiration
has a sense of entitlement,i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectatons
is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with feelings and needs of others
is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Interesting....huh?
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A la prochaine
Wheeewwwwww!
Narcissistic - wow, could it be any clearer.
Thanks Dot, thanks Vickles.
Welcome Vickles. Great thread!
'til the next time...
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vickles
here is another that is more interesting. I looked up the word sociopath, by gosh I think I've got it.....
Profile of a Sociopath
A number of mind-manipulating cult leaders may exhibit many of the behavioral characteristics of a sociopath-an outstanding ability to charm and seduce followers. Since they appear apparently normal, they are not easily recognizable as deviant or disturbed. Although only a trained professional can make a diagnosis, it is important to be able to recognize the personality type in order to avoid further abuse. These traits also apply to a one-on-one cultic relationship.
Glibness/Superficial Charm
Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally.
Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims
Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance. Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the 'spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality
Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistant basis. Can create and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests.
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises
Incapacity For Love
While they talk about "God's love" they are unable to give or receive it. Since they do not believe in the geniunes of their followers' love, they are very harsh in testing it from their devotees and expect them to feel guilt for their failings. Expects unconditional surrender.
Need for stimulation
Living on edge, yet testing the beliefs of their followers with bizarre rules, punishments and behaviors. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal
Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to emphasize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Their skills are used to exploit, abuse and exer power. Since the follower cannot believe their leader would callously hurt them, they rationalize the abuse. When devotees become aware of the exploitation it feels like a "spiritual rape" to them.
Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. The followers only see them as near perfect.
Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends, aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devatation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blame their followers or others outside their group. Blame reinforces passivity and obedience and produces guilt, shame, terror and conformity in the followers.
Promisuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Totalist leaders frequently practice promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. This is usually kept hidden from all but the inner circle. Stringent sexual control of their followers, such as forced breakups and divorces, removal of children from parents, rules for dating, etc.
Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future. Many groups claim as their goal world-domination or other utopian promises. Great contrast between the leader's opulent lifestyle and the followers' impoverishment. Support by gifts and donations from the followers who are pressured to give through fear and guilt. Highly sensitive to their own pain and health
Criminal or Entrpreneurial Versatility
Changes their image and that of the group as needed to avoid prosecution and to increase income and to recruit a range of members. Is able to adapt or relocate as needed to preserve the group. Can resurface later with a new name, a new front group and a new twist on the scam
Other Related Qualities:
Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional apprearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises depostic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to jusify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (repect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world
The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare
I hope you all don't mind that it was so long....It was just so interesting that I just had to post this.....thanks for your patience!!!
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Freebird
Looks like we have a winner - the sociopath behind Door #3!
Come to think of it, this sounds a lot like my ex, who absolutely loooooooved vp. Hmmmmm.....
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Dot Matrix
So a narcissistic sociopath! Works for me!
Vickles - Just to let you know there are some very BIG fans of VPW here, do not let them rattle you. I am sure they will be defending VPW ~ because they always do!
Answer them, ignore them, pray for them whatever, just a heads up so when the crap hits the fan you will not be caught off guard!
In support of our troops,
Dot Matrix
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vickles
Freeborn, lol It sounds like my ex also. And he is still is a fan of vpw. mmmmmm Did we have a lot of sociopaths in twi? Maybe so.
Dot, thanks for the warning. I think I understand why they still believe in him. I went through that also when I first left.
We are all in different stages of healing. Sometimes its hard to realize that we followed someone that actually had these problems. If people didn't have the opportunity to spend time with him then it would be harder to acknowledge. I know that some believe it was the changing of leadership that was the problem. I'm sorry folks but the problems were there from the very beginning. We just didn't see it. That is hard to admit that we were snookered and maybe did some wrongs in the name of Christ. I know I did. All I have to say is if they believe it or not its up to them. We all are free to believe what we want to and hopefully those that do still believe in vpw will come around sometime. But please remember this, if we are born again then we are all believers. Just because I don't believe in vpw and his work does not mean that I'm any less than you are. Nor does it mean that I am greater than you. God loves us all whether or not we believe in the same writings. You and I are the same as a christian that is baptist, methodist, lutheran, catholic, and etc. We are no more special than any other son or daughter of God. Or I should say that we are all special including the baptists, methodists, lutherans, catholics, and the etc's.
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A la prochaine
Nice!!
'til the next time...
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excathedra
i'm an ex-etc
:)-->
reading that stuff is like reading his resume for godssake
ok when i had "-teen" still attached to my age this mf held my hand and let me cry and cry about past (sex)abuse in my life as a kid
then came the old.... god wants you to know what it's really like to be loved.... not used.... etc etc etc see why i'm an ex-etc ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
the descriptions are so fitting i can't vote on one, but if i had to, i would say, Incapacity For Love, because that covers so much
how sad and sick is that love was all i wanted
**
i don't want to hear how sorry anyone feels and i don't want to be called the patron saint of sexually abused gals
**
ok ? i am just talking about my life ok? be it for me or for someone else who comes along....
tanks
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vickles
excathedra,
I think that is all we wanted and we mistook everything for God's love. Yes it is sad and sick. I don't think too many can deny that they have seen these things if they are honest with themselves, do you?
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shazdancer
So here's my question:
Given that we see narcissism/sociopathy traits in VPW's life, pretend for a moment that he is still alive. How should we treat him? Should we try to empathize? Should we rebuke him (or M&A him) and warn others? Should we work with him quietly behind the scenes and let him go on preaching and teaching? Should we cast out devil spirits?
Was just wondering, in case I meet another disordered personality some day...
Regards,
shaz
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Goey
Shazdancer Asked:
Good question. I am no expert, but I do not think the rehabilitation rate is too good for folks like VPW. You cannot work with someone who does not want to be worked with or does not see the problem. One of the symptoms of narccissim, sociopathy and alcoholism is that the person does not see that they have a problem. It is everyone else that has the problem. Once this kind of person is in a position of ultimate authority like VPW or LCM in TWI, they will run over and abuse folks until they die or until they get the boot.
You might try an exorcism, but if it does not take, I'd run like hell. Most likely, you'll be the one getting M & A'd. --
:D-->
Goey
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TheInvisibleDan
There's another thread from last year,
"Was Wierwille Mentally Ill?", that might be of some interest to this discussion.
http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc...42&m=6436018111
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Golfie
" Should we cast out devil spirits? "
Suppose VPW's abnormal behavior was not mental, but spiritual. Didn't VPW teach us that mental illness is really possesion by devil spirits? VPW was often guilty of the same things he accused others of.
When VPW died, to whom did did all those devil spirits go?
After LCM got the boot, where did his d.s. go?
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vickles
Well, for one thing I think it would be up to you what you wanted to do. I mean if you wanted to go on quietly to go on behind the scenes. I for one would leave and not have anything to do with the guy. I wouldn't mark and avoid. But I would go on with life and read the Bible for myself. This is a big world after all.
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nolongerlurking
Ok, I wasn't going to say anything in this thread, but I can contain myself NO LONGER.
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Let's get this straight... let's not put such a huge negative spin on mental illness here ok? I HAVE A MENTAL ILLNESS, as do lots of others here at gs and other ex-way places. In fact, LOTS OF PEOPLE all over the country and the world suffer from mental illnesses of various types and severities. The more the stigma of mental illness melts away in light of recent research, the more people are coming out of the closet and admitting they they are affected by such a disorder. Mental illness is just about as prevalent as diabetes. Mental illness is caused by chemical malfunctions/imbalances in the brain, which is an organic organ of the physical body. Pleeeaaassseee, let's leave the middle ages behind here. Is diabetes, or heart disease, or the flu caused by devil spirits????? NOT. Many mental illnesses can now be successfully treated by modern medicine. Thankfully, mine can, and because of it, I can lead a normal, happy, healthy life. Unfortunately, not all mental illnesses can be treated at this point in time. Also, we cannot force people who would benefit from medical intervention to comply with the prescribed treatment. Untreated diabetics will die. Untreated mental patients have other problems. Unfortunately, most of the time ad untreated mental patient has a HUGE affect on the people around him.
Rotten behaviour, or even criminal behaviour resulting from mental illness should not be excused. But it should be understood for what it is. People with mental illnesses should be understood and helped to the extent that help is possible. If help is not possible, they should be removed from society at large to prevent them from hurting others, but they should still be understood rather than condemned for their problems.
There are, on the other hand, people who are just plain rotten, who do NOT suffer from a mental illness. People who just simply choose to hate. Let's not lump all these guys and gals into the same loaf. The difference between the rotten, the strange, and the mentally ill is very difficult to distinguish even by highly trained and highly experienced individuals. Lay people don't have a prayer. So please, let's try to treat people with compassion like Jesus Christ did. And if such people hurt us or others, they should simply be seen as unhealthy to be around and left alone.
I am not a bad person. I have a productive job wherein I contribute to society. I have two kids who me and my hubby of 14 years are putting thru college and high school soon-to-be-college respectively. VeePee may have had a mental illness, but there had to be something more to it than that. I think the character of an individual plays a BIG role in the effect a mental illness might have on his or her own life as well as the lives of those around them.
nolongerlurking
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