It is not unconditional. The love comes once the conditions are met.
I don't think TLC believes it's unconditional. Even poor victor didn't "teach" unconditional love.
You obviously don’t know or understand what I believe, much less have any sort of credibility in saying that the love of God is conditional. Furthermore, neither do I think that you personally honestly know what VPW actually did or didn’t say or teach about love of God. Perhaps you’re simply regurgitating something you’ve only read or heard from someone else.
In any event, it’s not something that I have any desire or interest in debating further with you. Just thought I’d correct your boldly stated misinformation about what I think or believe.
Unfortunately, accepting the condemnation from an "all-powerful Creator" that we are all sinners and have fallen short of His perfect glory is the antithesis of having any sense of self-esteem or self-worth. What’s even worse is that because of this indisputable judgment upon us, we are absolutely dependent on His “perfect and unconditional love” in order to be able to love ourselves and others.
My perspective sees the “all have sinned” in Romans more basically as a statement of fact rather than some new pronouncement of judgement… in other words, being the result of Adam’s choice, which we all are ensnared within.
Furthermore , I see “fallen short of the glory of God” more as a failure to… (I pause here, because it seems there may be no easy way to communicate this very clearly)… live worthy of eternity. Because I think the glory of God here relates to something that is eternal. Which puts it on a level that is so far above and beyond anything even remotely related to “self-esteem” or “self-worth,” it makes “the antithesis” of one’s treasured self value as laughably worthless as anything else on the opposite (highest) end of the scale.
You obviously don’t know or understand what I believe, much less have any sort of credibility in saying that the love of God is conditional. Furthermore, neither do I think that you personally honestly know what VPW actually did or didn’t say or teach about love of God. Perhaps you’re simply regurgitating something you’ve only read or heard from someone else.
In any event, it’s not something that I have any desire or interest in debating further with you. Just thought I’d correct your boldly stated misinformation about what I think or believe.
TC
I'm perfectly comfortable with not knowing or understanding what you believe. I qualified what I said with "I think..."
I can only go by the words you write here. I can only go by the words victor spoke and wrote. Either those words form coherent ideas or they compose a salad.
Victor claimed there was much to do to garner favor from his god. Victor said belief is what you do, faith is what you have. Gotta beleeeve before you can get his god's love. And there are other things to do to get extra love (rewards). Conditions.
My perspective sees the “all have sinned” in Romans more basically as a statement of fact rather than some new pronouncement of judgement… in other words, being the result of Adam’s choice, which we all are ensnared within.
Furthermore , I see “fallen short of the glory of God” more as a failure to… (I pause here, because it seems there may be no easy way to communicate this very clearly)… live worthy of eternity. Because I think the glory of God here relates to something that is eternal. Which puts it on a level that is so far above and beyond anything even remotely related to “self-esteem” or “self-worth,” it makes “the antithesis” of one’s treasured self value as laughably worthless as anything else on the opposite (highest) end of the scale.
What proof/evidence is there that an inherited body of sin from Adam even exists? It appears nothing more than a convenient story to explain the imperfection of man and justify the need for a perfect savior.
What proof/evidence is there of an eternity or an eternal glory of God? They appear to do nothing more than provide a comforting placebo effect when faced with living in an imperfect world.
When you look at a newborn baby, do you actually laugh at how worthless he/she is in comparison to some imagined god?
You have no idea how freeing it is to no longer have to cling to such beliefs and all the biased baggage that comes with them.
Furthermore, neither do I think that you personally honestly know what VPW actually did or didn’t say or teach about love of God.
TC
When it comes to the love of God and vpw, do you really think he had an accurate grasp on what it was by the way he lived his life? The bible clearly teaches conditional love when it describes a "love me or else" god, does it not?
At the end of the video below, Seth Andrews compared God's love to a domestic abuser: "We’re listening to abuse language. You are only good because of me. You are unworthy. You get your worth from me. You don’t deserve any goodness in your own life, so any goodness you get is a gift from me. It’s because of me. If you are harmed or if I hurt you, it’s your fault. You made me do it. You forced my hand. You made me hurt you and whatever you do, never ever leave me or else. Those who hold to this fundamentalist view, they are the Battered Bride of Christ."
Aside from what is revealed in or by the Word of God, probably none that you (and many others) would account as such.
1 hour ago, Charity said:
...in comparison to some imagined god?
There's no sense in comparing anything to a god that is only imagined.
1 hour ago, Charity said:
You have no idea how freeing it is to no longer have to cling to such beliefs and all the biased baggage that comes with them.
Probably not, given I don't know nor relate to all of the biased bagged you seem to have been burdened with.
However, I do know what it feels like to be freed from the fear of failure and the fear of eternal death.
I'll also say this. If you have ever truly and honestly been touched by the grace of God... it is something that you never forget.
When it comes to the love of God and vpw, do you really think he had an accurate grasp on what it was by the way he lived his life? The bible clearly teaches conditional love when it describes a "love me or else" god, does it not?
I disagree with quite a bit of what VPW both taught, and how he lived his life.
And no, I do not believe that the bible teaches (much less "clearly teaches") that God's love is conditional.
That doesn't automatically or necessarily rule out anything else being conditional.
Salvation is conditional. So are rewards. Many other things in this life are as well.
However, God's love is not. To say that it is makes God Himself (who is love) conditional.
And nowhere does it say or teach in the Bible that God Himself is "conditional."
I disagree with quite a bit of what VPW both taught, and how he lived his life.
And no, I do not believe that the bible teaches (much less "clearly teaches") that God's love is conditional.
That doesn't automatically or necessarily rule out anything else being conditional.
Salvation is conditional. So are rewards. Many other things in this life are as well.
However, God's love is not. To say that it is makes God Himself (who is love) conditional.
And nowhere does it say or teach in the Bible that God Himself is "conditional."
To believe this TLC, you must believe that everything God did in the OT was an act of love. On top of that, Christians believe that because the bible says God is righteous and just, everything he did in the OT was right and moral.
Twi didn’t spend much time in the OT since it was not written ‘to’ us – I had barely read it until recently, so maybe this is true for you as well. It’s a real eye opener to actually read event after event of the atrocious deeds God committed on his own people, not to mention on those who were not called his people.
It’s easy to write in a book “God is love,” but the proof is in his actions. Please don't quote Isaiah 55:8-9 as they clearly prevent critical thinking resulting in brainwashing and indoctrination. What do you think about God in the OT?
Probably not, given I don't know nor relate to all of the biased bagged you seem to have been burdened with.
The biased baggage I speak of relates to how it burdens the world, not always specifically me.
As you said, salvation is conditional which fits with the definition of bias - God is in favor of one thing, person, or group compared with another. Some other biases that cause division, oppression and persecution are the Jews being the chosen people (Deut 7:6), women being subject to men in the church (1 Cor 14:34, 1 Tim 2:11), homosexuals being vile, and worthy of death and/or deserving of recompense/retribution (Lev 20:13, Rom 1:26-27) and unbelievers being unequal to Christians (2 Cor 6:14).
There's no sense in comparing anything to a god that is only imagined.
To me, god is an imagined being created in the minds of men. To you, he is real and governs your beliefs. So I’ll ask the question this way in response to your statement that “the glory of God here relates to something that is eternal. Which puts it on a level that is so far above and beyond anything even remotely related to “self-esteem” or “self-worth,” it makes “the antithesis” of one’s treasured self-value as laughably worthless as anything else on the opposite (highest) end of the scale.” (Bold font is done by me)
As a Christian, when you look at a newborn baby, do you actually laugh at how worthless he/she is in comparison to your god?
As a humanist, I believe every person in this world has intrinsic worth.
However, I do know what it feels like to be freed from the fear of failure and the fear of eternal death.
TLC, what failure are you afraid of committing? Are they spiritual failures such as sinning or not living up to Jesus’ standard of commitment to him as in Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple…33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsakes not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple?
Concerning eternal death – there's nothing to be afraid of since no one will have consciousness of anything after death (Eccl 9:5) just like it was before you were born. If it is a fear of missing out on eternal life with rewards and seeing your fellow Christian loved ones, God and Christ, you can see from researching Zoroastrianism where and how such beliefs began. (The 2 websites below give some info.)
Aside from what is revealed in or by the Word of God, probably none that you (and many others) would account as such.
The problems arise when one only reads the bible (or what Christians teach about it) and decides to put gnawing questions about biblical doctrine on the back burner because of one's apathy or cognitive dissonance.
One way to find answers is to consider what others outside of this echo chamber has to say. I find the video below is a good place to start.
At the end of the video below, Seth Andrews compared God's love to a domestic abuser: "We’re listening to abuse language. You are only good because of me. You are unworthy. You get your worth from me. You don’t deserve any goodness in your own life, so any goodness you get is a gift from me. It’s because of me. If you are harmed or if I hurt you, it’s your fault. You made me do it. You forced my hand. You made me hurt you and whatever you do, never ever leave me or else. Those who hold to this fundamentalist view, they are the Battered Bride of Christ."
I'll also say this. If you have ever truly and honestly been touched by the grace of God... it is something that you never forget.
I was taught that grace meant God's undeserved favour. When it comes to God's salvation, the bible says we were undeserving because we were sinners (Rom 5:8-11 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.)
Christians love God. They are thankful to him and rejoice in him for his divine grace shown in those verses. However, God only saves us from what he himself set us up to be in the first place because of Adam and Eve – humans born in slavery to sin and worthy of his wrath, death and eternal punishment.
To me, this seriously sounds similar to being a sufferer of Stockholm syndrome where a bond is created between the abuser and the person being abused.
It's interesting that one of the symptoms of SS is having negative feelings toward police or other authority figures who may want to free the victim from the abuser and even hold the abuser accountable. Christians will often have negative feelings towards people who try to show them that God is an abuser of his creation.
Some describe sin as missing the mark or coming up short. God certainly came up short when he created man in his image. If god is perfect, then his creation should also have been made perfect, right? But the answer is god is not perfect because he made all of his creations with sin capabilities. The angels he made sinned as evidenced by Lucifer and his band of devils rebelling and sinning.
Man also rebelled against his creator, and only because the creator gave him this imperfect ability.
I can only surmise that god is not perfect because of the imperfections he allowed in his creation.
A better realization is there no god at all. Then thousands of religions don’t have to be made up by men, which all contradict each other, to explain how a loving god actually loves his sinful creation.
Somehow Man “A” decides what he believes, but Man “B”, decides something different…and on and on. Thousands of different ways supposedly to get you to the same place. You can’t go North and expect to arrive at the same destination by traveling West.
Which is correct?
What is your reasoning for choosing the Islam religion over the Jewish religion? What makes Buddha so appealing over Jesus? I guess the best one can do is figure how they “feel in their heart” at the time. But what happens tomorrow when you “feel” different and chose a new path? Was the first belief a complete waste of time and cause you to loose rewards you can never recover? That sure doesn’t sound fair does it?
Religion is so contrary to common sense. It just doesn’t make sense at all.
Some describe sin as missing the mark or coming up short. God certainly came up short when he created man in his image. If god is perfect, then his creation should also have been made perfect, right? But the answer is god is not perfect because he made all of his creations with sin capabilities. The angels he made sinned as evidenced by Lucifer and his band of devils rebelling and sinning.
Man also rebelled against his creator, and only because the creator gave him this imperfect ability.
I can only surmise that god is not perfect because of the imperfections he allowed in his creation.
A better realization is there no god at all. Then thousands of religions don’t have to be made up by men, which all contradict each other, to explain how a loving god actually loves his sinful creation.
Somehow Man “A” decides what he believes, but Man “B”, decides something different…and on and on. Thousands of different ways supposedly to get you to the same place. You can’t go North and expect to arrive at the same destination by traveling West.
Which is correct?
What is your reasoning for choosing the Islam religion over the Jewish religion? What makes Buddha so appealing over Jesus? I guess the best one can do is figure how they “feel in their heart” at the time. But what happens tomorrow when you “feel” different and chose a new path? Was the first belief a complete waste of time and cause you to loose rewards you can never recover? That sure doesn’t sound fair does it?
Religion is so contrary to common sense. It just doesn’t make sense at all.
Thank you for your post. As a recent atheist, it can often still hurt a lot to see the manipulative side of the crucifixion story. One could say "so what it others still blindly believe and find comfort in it - just be thankful you are no longer one of them and move on with your life." I haven't figured out yet why I'm not following that someone's opinion.
Recommended Posts
TLC
You obviously don’t know or understand what I believe, much less have any sort of credibility in saying that the love of God is conditional. Furthermore, neither do I think that you personally honestly know what VPW actually did or didn’t say or teach about love of God. Perhaps you’re simply regurgitating something you’ve only read or heard from someone else.
In any event, it’s not something that I have any desire or interest in debating further with you. Just thought I’d correct your boldly stated misinformation about what I think or believe.
TC
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TLC
My perspective sees the “all have sinned” in Romans more basically as a statement of fact rather than some new pronouncement of judgement… in other words, being the result of Adam’s choice, which we all are ensnared within.
Furthermore , I see “fallen short of the glory of God” more as a failure to… (I pause here, because it seems there may be no easy way to communicate this very clearly)… live worthy of eternity. Because I think the glory of God here relates to something that is eternal. Which puts it on a level that is so far above and beyond anything even remotely related to “self-esteem” or “self-worth,” it makes “the antithesis” of one’s treasured self value as laughably worthless as anything else on the opposite (highest) end of the scale.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
I'm perfectly comfortable with not knowing or understanding what you believe. I qualified what I said with "I think..."
I can only go by the words you write here. I can only go by the words victor spoke and wrote. Either those words form coherent ideas or they compose a salad.
Victor claimed there was much to do to garner favor from his god. Victor said belief is what you do, faith is what you have. Gotta beleeeve before you can get his god's love. And there are other things to do to get extra love (rewards). Conditions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
What proof/evidence is there that an inherited body of sin from Adam even exists? It appears nothing more than a convenient story to explain the imperfection of man and justify the need for a perfect savior.
What proof/evidence is there of an eternity or an eternal glory of God? They appear to do nothing more than provide a comforting placebo effect when faced with living in an imperfect world.
When you look at a newborn baby, do you actually laugh at how worthless he/she is in comparison to some imagined god?
You have no idea how freeing it is to no longer have to cling to such beliefs and all the biased baggage that comes with them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
When it comes to the love of God and vpw, do you really think he had an accurate grasp on what it was by the way he lived his life? The bible clearly teaches conditional love when it describes a "love me or else" god, does it not?
At the end of the video below, Seth Andrews compared God's love to a domestic abuser: "We’re listening to abuse language. You are only good because of me. You are unworthy. You get your worth from me. You don’t deserve any goodness in your own life, so any goodness you get is a gift from me. It’s because of me. If you are harmed or if I hurt you, it’s your fault. You made me do it. You forced my hand. You made me hurt you and whatever you do, never ever leave me or else. Those who hold to this fundamentalist view, they are the Battered Bride of Christ."
Is God Good?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TLC
Aside from what is revealed in or by the Word of God, probably none that you (and many others) would account as such.
There's no sense in comparing anything to a god that is only imagined.
Probably not, given I don't know nor relate to all of the biased bagged you seem to have been burdened with.
However, I do know what it feels like to be freed from the fear of failure and the fear of eternal death.
I'll also say this. If you have ever truly and honestly been touched by the grace of God... it is something that you never forget.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TLC
I disagree with quite a bit of what VPW both taught, and how he lived his life.
And no, I do not believe that the bible teaches (much less "clearly teaches") that God's love is conditional.
That doesn't automatically or necessarily rule out anything else being conditional.
Salvation is conditional. So are rewards. Many other things in this life are as well.
However, God's love is not. To say that it is makes God Himself (who is love) conditional.
And nowhere does it say or teach in the Bible that God Himself is "conditional."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Does love have space for jealousy and wrath?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
To believe this TLC, you must believe that everything God did in the OT was an act of love. On top of that, Christians believe that because the bible says God is righteous and just, everything he did in the OT was right and moral.
Twi didn’t spend much time in the OT since it was not written ‘to’ us – I had barely read it until recently, so maybe this is true for you as well. It’s a real eye opener to actually read event after event of the atrocious deeds God committed on his own people, not to mention on those who were not called his people.
It’s easy to write in a book “God is love,” but the proof is in his actions. Please don't quote Isaiah 55:8-9 as they clearly prevent critical thinking resulting in brainwashing and indoctrination. What do you think about God in the OT?
Edited by CharityLink to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Conditional salvation can't come from unconditional love.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
The biased baggage I speak of relates to how it burdens the world, not always specifically me.
As you said, salvation is conditional which fits with the definition of bias - God is in favor of one thing, person, or group compared with another. Some other biases that cause division, oppression and persecution are the Jews being the chosen people (Deut 7:6), women being subject to men in the church (1 Cor 14:34, 1 Tim 2:11), homosexuals being vile, and worthy of death and/or deserving of recompense/retribution (Lev 20:13, Rom 1:26-27) and unbelievers being unequal to Christians (2 Cor 6:14).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
To me, god is an imagined being created in the minds of men. To you, he is real and governs your beliefs. So I’ll ask the question this way in response to your statement that “the glory of God here relates to something that is eternal. Which puts it on a level that is so far above and beyond anything even remotely related to “self-esteem” or “self-worth,” it makes “the antithesis” of one’s treasured self-value as laughably worthless as anything else on the opposite (highest) end of the scale.” (Bold font is done by me)
As a Christian, when you look at a newborn baby, do you actually laugh at how worthless he/she is in comparison to your god?
As a humanist, I believe every person in this world has intrinsic worth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
TLC, what failure are you afraid of committing? Are they spiritual failures such as sinning or not living up to Jesus’ standard of commitment to him as in Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple…33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsakes not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple?
Concerning eternal death – there's nothing to be afraid of since no one will have consciousness of anything after death (Eccl 9:5) just like it was before you were born. If it is a fear of missing out on eternal life with rewards and seeing your fellow Christian loved ones, God and Christ, you can see from researching Zoroastrianism where and how such beliefs began. (The 2 websites below give some info.)
Zoroastrianism
Zoroastrianism
Edited by CharityLink to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
The problems arise when one only reads the bible (or what Christians teach about it) and decides to put gnawing questions about biblical doctrine on the back burner because of one's apathy or cognitive dissonance.
One way to find answers is to consider what others outside of this echo chamber has to say. I find the video below is a good place to start.
Bill Zuersher - Seeing Through Christianity - A Critique of Beliefs and Evidence
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I was taught that grace meant God's undeserved favour. When it comes to God's salvation, the bible says we were undeserving because we were sinners (Rom 5:8-11 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.)
Christians love God. They are thankful to him and rejoice in him for his divine grace shown in those verses. However, God only saves us from what he himself set us up to be in the first place because of Adam and Eve – humans born in slavery to sin and worthy of his wrath, death and eternal punishment.
To me, this seriously sounds similar to being a sufferer of Stockholm syndrome where a bond is created between the abuser and the person being abused.
Stockholm Syndrome
It's interesting that one of the symptoms of SS is having negative feelings toward police or other authority figures who may want to free the victim from the abuser and even hold the abuser accountable. Christians will often have negative feelings towards people who try to show them that God is an abuser of his creation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stayed Too Long
Some describe sin as missing the mark or coming up short. God certainly came up short when he created man in his image. If god is perfect, then his creation should also have been made perfect, right? But the answer is god is not perfect because he made all of his creations with sin capabilities. The angels he made sinned as evidenced by Lucifer and his band of devils rebelling and sinning.
Man also rebelled against his creator, and only because the creator gave him this imperfect ability.
I can only surmise that god is not perfect because of the imperfections he allowed in his creation.
A better realization is there no god at all. Then thousands of religions don’t have to be made up by men, which all contradict each other, to explain how a loving god actually loves his sinful creation.
Somehow Man “A” decides what he believes, but Man “B”, decides something different…and on and on. Thousands of different ways supposedly to get you to the same place. You can’t go North and expect to arrive at the same destination by traveling West.
Which is correct?
What is your reasoning for choosing the Islam religion over the Jewish religion? What makes Buddha so appealing over Jesus? I guess the best one can do is figure how they “feel in their heart” at the time. But what happens tomorrow when you “feel” different and chose a new path? Was the first belief a complete waste of time and cause you to loose rewards you can never recover? That sure doesn’t sound fair does it?
Religion is so contrary to common sense. It just doesn’t make sense at all.
Edited by Stayed Too LongLink to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Thank you for your post. As a recent atheist, it can often still hurt a lot to see the manipulative side of the crucifixion story. One could say "so what it others still blindly believe and find comfort in it - just be thankful you are no longer one of them and move on with your life." I haven't figured out yet why I'm not following that someone's opinion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.