Many times, I have heard that “God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself.” Romans 2:4-10 demonstrates this kind of blaming by teaching a strict dichotomy that we’re all bad and God’s all good in order to get us to choose God.
Romans 2:4 Or despise thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasure up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man thatworks good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Is not this gaslighting and manipulation? Especially when you consider that our "evil" was by God's design according to the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. What makes people prone to accepting this doctrine hook, line and sinker?
It is not unconditional. The love comes once the conditions are met.
I don't think TLC believes it's unconditional. Even poor victor didn't "teach" unconditional love.
Well there's Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And Rom 5:8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Believing these verses then means you have to believe that God is loving those whom he places "in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
A bit of cognitive dissonance is in order, I'd say.
Well there's Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And Rom 5:8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Believing these verses then means you have to believe that God is loving those whom he places "in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
A bit of cognitive dissonance is in order, I'd say.
Ok. But isn't something required of you to be saved from the one who loves you? Isn't there something to do first before receiving this saving love? Conditions must be met, lest wrath come down upon thee!
Here is how I came to accept the doctrine of the bible. I was brought up in the Roman Catholic church. The combination of being told for years that I was a wretched sinner plus the unhealthy choices I made during my teens resulted in a desperate need for God's help when I turned 18 and ended up going to my first twi fellowship.
Those two realities in my life made me ripe for wanting what Romans 2 taught – the goodness of God, eternal life, peace, etc., and I remained indoctrinated with those beliefs up until a few months ago.
My point is that, for me, believing in God and the scriptures was solely because of what I was taught as a child and my emotional and mental needs later on in life. I knew nothing, however, about the secular history of their origins.
Having now learned some things about that history, I’ve come to see the bible as a man-made religion and that much of its ideologies such as Romans 2:4-10 are simply not true. We are not “sinners” worthy of wrath, tribulation and anguish but human beings with strengths and weaknesses.
The problem-filled gap between believing parents and their unbelieving teenaged and/or adult children is an unnecessary burden for either side to bear.
Ok. But isn't something required of you to be saved from the one who loves you? Isn't there something to do first before receiving this saving love? Conditions must be met, lest wrath come down upon thee!
This is why many Christians will say God does not send you to hell, you send yourself by not meeting that condition. Things are never God's fault but man's. How frustrating it is to see God get a pass when he is responsible for the problem to begin with - He's like the Teflon D*n John Joseph Gotti Jr.
The problem-filled gap between believing parents and their unbelieving teenaged and/or adult children is an unnecessary burden for either side to bear.
However, the problem-filled lives of teenagers trying to figure out how to become integrated into society IS a necessary burden for both sides to solve somehow.
ln today's version of Western Civilization, doesn't religion (Christianity) present (obviously imperfect) ways to cope with those problems?
I remember being thankful for my nieces and nephews having a structure to guide them along that path. Now it's a set of problems my daughter and grandchildren are navigating... IMO very complicated and not so easy. Just my limited point of view.
However, the problem-filled lives of teenagers trying to figure out how to become integrated into society IS a necessary burden for both sides to solve somehow.
ln today's version of Western Civilization, doesn't religion (Christianity) present (obviously imperfect) ways to cope with those problems?
I remember being thankful for my nieces and nephews having a structure to guide them along that path. Now it's a set of problems my daughter and grandchildren are navigating... IMO very complicated and not so easy. Just my limited point of view.
You bring up another reality, Rocky, of the harm cult-like religious doctrine causes those leaving those doctrines especially if they grew up in that culture. I hope your daughter and grandchildren find growing peace and inner strength.
Concerning religion playing a part in helping teenagers and others cope, I have to honestly say that as long as they teach "we are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God and need saving," they continue to be part of the problem. Don't you think the words "God/Jesus loves you" are a bit hypocritical when he is the author of this shame-based doctrine?
To see as a child. To see as a child before cultural, political and religious conditioning. To see without judgement. To see without beleef. To see what actually is.
So, to see purely, completely, serenely. To see everything with awe and wonder. This is real liberty and power. This is the new birth, again.
But it may only come as a glimpse.
Don't ask me how. I cannot say and I would not say. It can't be uttered. But we all had it once. (All without exception, or, if you prefer, all without distinction.)
This can't happen while clutching, clinging, to dogmas, doctrines, presumptive conclusions and beleefs.
You bring up another reality, Rocky, of the harm cult-like religious doctrine causes those leaving those doctrines especially if they grew up in that culture. I hope your daughter and grandchildren find growing peace and inner strength.
Concerning religion playing a part in helping teenagers and others cope, I have to honestly say that as long as they teach "we are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God and need saving," they continue to be part of the problem. Don't you think the words "God/Jesus loves you" are a bit hypocritical when he is the author of this shame-based doctrine?
I didn't bring that up, though perhaps you thought of it as a result of reading my comment.
I too hope my family find growing peace and inner strength. I believe we are millennia beyond blaming religious institutions for being part of the problem. The problem(s) is/are what gets built into the brains/minds of hundreds of millions of people, IMO. Solving it/them is (also IMO) massively complicated. Can society/civilization be changed? Gosh, wouldn't that be nice. Curiosity, aka spiritual hunger, has been a major factor in promulgation of cults. Actually, as I see it now, it's far bigger than I can imagine.
To see as a child. To see as a child before cultural, political and religious conditioning. To see without judgement. To see without beleef. To see what actually is.
So, to see purely, completely, serenely. To see everything with awe and wonder. This is real liberty and power. This is the new birth, again.
But it may only come as a glimpse.
Don't ask me how. I cannot say and I would not say. It can't be uttered. But we all had it once. (All without exception, or, if you prefer, all without distinction.)
This can't happen while clutching, clinging, to dogmas, doctrines, presumptive conclusions and beleefs.
Thanks for sharing the song Waysider - love the lyrics. The link below gives info about the album this song was on and has an impressive video of Apollo launches. Here's a quote from the article, "The whole album is concerned with space travel, discovery and a better future for the human race."
Reminds me of a definition of humanism: "an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems." Oxford Languages
Listen, hear the sound
The child awakes
Wonder all around
The child awakes
Now in his life, he never must be lost
No thoughts must deceive him
In life he must trust
With the eyes of a child
You must come out and see
That your world's spinning 'round
And through life you will be
A small part of a hope
Of a love that exists
In the eyes of a child you will see
Earth falls far away
New life awaits
Time it has no day
New life awaits
Here is your dream
And now how does it feel?
No words will go with you
And now what is real?
I didn't bring that up, though perhaps you thought of it as a result of reading my comment.
I too hope my family find growing peace and inner strength. I believe we are millennia beyond blaming religious institutions for being part of the problem. The problem(s) is/are what gets built into the brains/minds of hundreds of millions of people, IMO. Solving it/them is (also IMO) massively complicated. Can society/civilization be changed? Gosh, wouldn't that be nice. Curiosity, aka spiritual hunger, has been a major factor in promulgation of cults. Actually, as I see it now, it's far bigger than I can imagine.
I did take your comment "However, the problem-filled lives of teenagers trying to figure out how to become integrated into society IS a necessary burden for both sides to solve somehow." in the context of my post referring to different religious beliefs between parents and their children.
You wrote "I believe we are millennia beyond blaming religious institutions for being part of the problem." Just checking for some clarification. Are you saying that religious institutions do not play as big of a role in today's worldly problems?
To see as a child. To see as a child before cultural, political and religious conditioning. To see without judgement. To see without beleef. To see what actually is.
So, to see purely, completely, serenely. To see everything with awe and wonder. This is real liberty and power. This is the new birth, again.
But it may only come as a glimpse.
Don't ask me how. I cannot say and I would not say. It can't be uttered. But we all had it once. (All without exception, or, if you prefer, all without distinction.)
This can't happen while clutching, clinging, to dogmas, doctrines, presumptive conclusions and beleefs.
Your post means a lot to me since I stopped believing in the existence of a god/s. Imagine what life would be life without any religions - I can only see it as being better.
I did take your comment "However, the problem-filled lives of teenagers trying to figure out how to become integrated into society IS a necessary burden for both sides to solve somehow." in the context of my post referring to different religious beliefs between parents and their children.
You wrote "I believe we are millennia beyond blaming religious institutions for being part of the problem." Just checking for some clarification. Are you saying that religious institutions do not play as big of a role in today's worldly problems?
Not necessarily directly. IMO, the problem is millennia-old orthodoxy that's extremely difficult for people to get beyond.
Yes, many churches are problematic today. But not all of them. I think of definitions of cult, cults, and cultism as high-demand groups and organizations.
Ones that are not high-demand groups still deal with problematic doctrine and orthodoxy, but can and in many cases do provide positive benefit to society. I am not interested in naming names of groups which aren't bad.
Not necessarily directly. IMO, the problem is millennia-old orthodoxy that's extremely difficult for people to get beyond.
Yes, many churches are problematic today. But not all of them. I think of definitions of cult, cults, and cultism as high-demand groups and organizations.
Ones that are not high-demand groups still deal with problematic doctrine and orthodoxy, but can and in many cases do provide positive benefit to society. I am not interested in naming names of groups which aren't bad.
I’m not advocating for there to be no more religion - I just wonder if religion was replaced with humanism one person at a time, would the world be actually worse for it. I don’t think so but many others might think differently because of the millennia-old Christian orthodox belief that humans are naturally wretched without the saving grace of a god.
Believing you’re wretched can indoctrinate people to act accordingly. That's why it is sometimes said that if one deconverts from their religious beliefs, they will no longer have morals and, therefore, begin to behave more immorally. This religious bias-based logic is simply false.
When humanism is encouraged instead of such beliefs, the idea of “the potential value and goodness of human beings” would help people to “emphasize common human needs” and promote “solely rational ways of solving human problems.” (Quotes are from the definition of humanism by the Oxford dictionary) In that sense, I think the world would be better off.
One other thing, I often hear the point being made that unbelievers can do the good works that believers of all religions do, but in contrast, they will not do the harmful works that these believers can do to themselves and to others because of their beliefs.
To see as a child. To see as a child before cultural, political and religious conditioning. To see without judgement. To see without beleef. To see what actually is.
So, to see purely, completely, serenely. To see everything with awe and wonder. This is real liberty and power. This is the new birth, again.
But it may only come as a glimpse.
Don't ask me how. I cannot say and I would not say. It can't be uttered. But we all had it once. (All without exception, or, if you prefer, all without distinction.)
This can't happen while clutching, clinging, to dogmas, doctrines, presumptive conclusions and beleefs.
On 9/14/2024 at 2:41 PM, Nathan_Jr said:
I’ll tell you what’s behind those ideas. BELEEF.
Who requires you to beleeve? The ideologue, the politician, the propagandist, the grifter, the charlatan, that’s who.
The liar needs you to beleeve. Only the liar will preach the importance of beleeving above all else
Belief has no place where truth is concerned.
I want to understand what you are saying in the posts above because as of now, I see "beleef," as you call it, as being the basis of Christianity. Belief is defined as follows:
Oxford Dictionary = an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists - a firmly held opinion or conviction
Cambridge Dictionary = the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary is very similar to the above except for its definition #3 which says “conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.
What I find noteworthy is that the word "evidence," or any form of it, is not included in the first two definitions and is used as an add-on with the third, meaning evidence is helpful but not necessary.
This is important since evidence is the available body of facts indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid, and fact is a thing that is known or proved to be true.
Without proven facts, a belief is subjective and is no guarantee of truth no matter how firmly held it is by someone. A child looking at a flower can hold the belief that it is a flower (which is a fact) but for the child to believe what someone taught her - that the flower is made by God, this would be holding onto a beleef since this is not a proven fact.
Finally, since beleefs are not based on facts, evidence to the contrary means nothing to those who hold onto them.
I want to understand what you are saying in the posts above because as of now, I see "beleef," as you call it, as being the basis of Christianity. Belief is defined as follows:
Oxford Dictionary = an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists - a firmly held opinion or conviction
Cambridge Dictionary = the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary is very similar to the above except for its definition #3 which says “conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.
What I find noteworthy is that the word "evidence," or any form of it, is not included in the first two definitions and is used as an add-on with the third, meaning evidence is helpful but not necessary.
This is important since evidence is the available body of facts indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid, and fact is a thing that is known or proved to be true.
Without proven facts, a belief is subjective and is no guarantee of truth no matter how firmly held it is by someone. A child looking at a flower can hold the belief that it is a flower (which is a fact) but for the child to believe what someone taught her - that the flower is made by God, this would be holding onto a beleef since this is not a proven fact.
Finally, since beleefs are not based on facts, evidence to the contrary means nothing to those who hold onto them.
Victor paul wierwille, NaRd., valued belief above all action (without exception, or, if you prefer, without distinction). He taught believing is something you do, faith is something you have. So, works-dependent, not faith-dependent, salvation was the foundation of his theology, doctrine, dogma. Beleeeve in four crucified, let the Greek language and the textual evidence be damned!!
Just look around you today. Pay attention. Belief is the source of all division. In spite of evidence and facts and reason and logic, billions of people cling to their beliefs. Children are abused and murdered everyday because of belief. Genocide has always been justified by belief. Belief is the bedrock of theocratic fascism. (I'm feverishly resisting stepping over the precipice into politics!)
Science is improved by better science. I believe something to be true until I no longer have to - until I know, until I see.
I respect anyone's RIGHT to believe, but I don't have to respect WHAT they believe.
Notice, the more you know, the more you question; the less you know, the easier it is to be sure of your stupid, stupid beliefs.
And I should say, if one wants to find out if there is that which has no name, that which is eternal, one may very well find out for oneself. In this finding out, one shall see that belief has nothing to do with any of it.
Merriam-Webster Dictionary is very similar to the above except for its definition #3 which says “conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.
If I say "I believe," it is this definition I mean. I believe until better evidence or better argument is presented. Belief is ALWAYS temporary and dependent. It is never held tightly.
The first two definitions more accurately apply to beleef.
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Nathan_Jr
It is not unconditional. The love comes once the conditions are met.
I don't think TLC believes it's unconditional. Even poor victor didn't "teach" unconditional love.
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Charity
Many times, I have heard that “God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself.” Romans 2:4-10 demonstrates this kind of blaming by teaching a strict dichotomy that we’re all bad and God’s all good in order to get us to choose God.
Romans 2:4 Or despise thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasure up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Is not this gaslighting and manipulation? Especially when you consider that our "evil" was by God's design according to the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. What makes people prone to accepting this doctrine hook, line and sinker?
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Charity
Well there's Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And Rom 5:8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Believing these verses then means you have to believe that God is loving those whom he places "in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
A bit of cognitive dissonance is in order, I'd say.
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Nathan_Jr
Ok. But isn't something required of you to be saved from the one who loves you? Isn't there something to do first before receiving this saving love? Conditions must be met, lest wrath come down upon thee!
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Charity
Here is how I came to accept the doctrine of the bible. I was brought up in the Roman Catholic church. The combination of being told for years that I was a wretched sinner plus the unhealthy choices I made during my teens resulted in a desperate need for God's help when I turned 18 and ended up going to my first twi fellowship.
Those two realities in my life made me ripe for wanting what Romans 2 taught – the goodness of God, eternal life, peace, etc., and I remained indoctrinated with those beliefs up until a few months ago.
My point is that, for me, believing in God and the scriptures was solely because of what I was taught as a child and my emotional and mental needs later on in life. I knew nothing, however, about the secular history of their origins.
Having now learned some things about that history, I’ve come to see the bible as a man-made religion and that much of its ideologies such as Romans 2:4-10 are simply not true. We are not “sinners” worthy of wrath, tribulation and anguish but human beings with strengths and weaknesses.
The problem-filled gap between believing parents and their unbelieving teenaged and/or adult children is an unnecessary burden for either side to bear.
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Charity
This is why many Christians will say God does not send you to hell, you send yourself by not meeting that condition. Things are never God's fault but man's. How frustrating it is to see God get a pass when he is responsible for the problem to begin with - He's like the Teflon D*n John Joseph Gotti Jr.
Edited by CharityAdded Gotti's name
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Rocky
However, the problem-filled lives of teenagers trying to figure out how to become integrated into society IS a necessary burden for both sides to solve somehow.
ln today's version of Western Civilization, doesn't religion (Christianity) present (obviously imperfect) ways to cope with those problems?
I remember being thankful for my nieces and nephews having a structure to guide them along that path. Now it's a set of problems my daughter and grandchildren are navigating... IMO very complicated and not so easy. Just my limited point of view.
Edited by RockyLink to comment
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Charity
You bring up another reality, Rocky, of the harm cult-like religious doctrine causes those leaving those doctrines especially if they grew up in that culture. I hope your daughter and grandchildren find growing peace and inner strength.
Concerning religion playing a part in helping teenagers and others cope, I have to honestly say that as long as they teach "we are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God and need saving," they continue to be part of the problem. Don't you think the words "God/Jesus loves you" are a bit hypocritical when he is the author of this shame-based doctrine?
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Nathan_Jr
To see as a child. To see as a child before cultural, political and religious conditioning. To see without judgement. To see without beleef. To see what actually is.
So, to see purely, completely, serenely. To see everything with awe and wonder. This is real liberty and power. This is the new birth, again.
But it may only come as a glimpse.
Don't ask me how. I cannot say and I would not say. It can't be uttered. But we all had it once. (All without exception, or, if you prefer, all without distinction.)
This can't happen while clutching, clinging, to dogmas, doctrines, presumptive conclusions and beleefs.
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Rocky
I didn't bring that up, though perhaps you thought of it as a result of reading my comment.
I too hope my family find growing peace and inner strength. I believe we are millennia beyond blaming religious institutions for being part of the problem. The problem(s) is/are what gets built into the brains/minds of hundreds of millions of people, IMO. Solving it/them is (also IMO) massively complicated. Can society/civilization be changed? Gosh, wouldn't that be nice. Curiosity, aka spiritual hunger, has been a major factor in promulgation of cults. Actually, as I see it now, it's far bigger than I can imagine.
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waysider
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Nathan_Jr
I can count on you, Waysider.
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Charity
I agree
.
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Charity
Thanks for sharing the song Waysider - love the lyrics. The link below gives info about the album this song was on and has an impressive video of Apollo launches. Here's a quote from the article, "The whole album is concerned with space travel, discovery and a better future for the human race."
Reminds me of a definition of humanism: "an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems." Oxford Languages
Listen, hear the sound
The child awakes
Wonder all around
The child awakes
Now in his life, he never must be lost
No thoughts must deceive him
In life he must trust
With the eyes of a child
You must come out and see
That your world's spinning 'round
And through life you will be
A small part of a hope
Of a love that exists
In the eyes of a child you will see
Earth falls far away
New life awaits
Time it has no day
New life awaits
Here is your dream
And now how does it feel?
No words will go with you
And now what is real?
To Our Children’s Children’s Children by The Moody Blues
Edited by CharityLink to comment
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Charity
I did take your comment "However, the problem-filled lives of teenagers trying to figure out how to become integrated into society IS a necessary burden for both sides to solve somehow." in the context of my post referring to different religious beliefs between parents and their children.
You wrote "I believe we are millennia beyond blaming religious institutions for being part of the problem." Just checking for some clarification. Are you saying that religious institutions do not play as big of a role in today's worldly problems?
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Charity
Your post means a lot to me since I stopped believing in the existence of a god/s. Imagine what life would be life without any religions - I can only see it as being better.
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Rocky
Not necessarily directly. IMO, the problem is millennia-old orthodoxy that's extremely difficult for people to get beyond.
Yes, many churches are problematic today. But not all of them. I think of definitions of cult, cults, and cultism as high-demand groups and organizations.
Ones that are not high-demand groups still deal with problematic doctrine and orthodoxy, but can and in many cases do provide positive benefit to society. I am not interested in naming names of groups which aren't bad.
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Charity
I’m not advocating for there to be no more religion - I just wonder if religion was replaced with humanism one person at a time, would the world be actually worse for it. I don’t think so but many others might think differently because of the millennia-old Christian orthodox belief that humans are naturally wretched without the saving grace of a god.
Believing you’re wretched can indoctrinate people to act accordingly. That's why it is sometimes said that if one deconverts from their religious beliefs, they will no longer have morals and, therefore, begin to behave more immorally. This religious bias-based logic is simply false.
When humanism is encouraged instead of such beliefs, the idea of “the potential value and goodness of human beings” would help people to “emphasize common human needs” and promote “solely rational ways of solving human problems.” (Quotes are from the definition of humanism by the Oxford dictionary) In that sense, I think the world would be better off.
One other thing, I often hear the point being made that unbelievers can do the good works that believers of all religions do, but in contrast, they will not do the harmful works that these believers can do to themselves and to others because of their beliefs.
Edited by CharityClarify last sentence.
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Charity
I want to understand what you are saying in the posts above because as of now, I see "beleef," as you call it, as being the basis of Christianity. Belief is defined as follows:
Oxford Dictionary = an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists - a firmly held opinion or conviction
Cambridge Dictionary = the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary is very similar to the above except for its definition #3 which says “conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.
What I find noteworthy is that the word "evidence," or any form of it, is not included in the first two definitions and is used as an add-on with the third, meaning evidence is helpful but not necessary.
This is important since evidence is the available body of facts indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid, and fact is a thing that is known or proved to be true.
Without proven facts, a belief is subjective and is no guarantee of truth no matter how firmly held it is by someone. A child looking at a flower can hold the belief that it is a flower (which is a fact) but for the child to believe what someone taught her - that the flower is made by God, this would be holding onto a beleef since this is not a proven fact.
Finally, since beleefs are not based on facts, evidence to the contrary means nothing to those who hold onto them.
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Nathan_Jr
Victor paul wierwille, NaRd., valued belief above all action (without exception, or, if you prefer, without distinction). He taught believing is something you do, faith is something you have. So, works-dependent, not faith-dependent, salvation was the foundation of his theology, doctrine, dogma. Beleeeve in four crucified, let the Greek language and the textual evidence be damned!!
Just look around you today. Pay attention. Belief is the source of all division. In spite of evidence and facts and reason and logic, billions of people cling to their beliefs. Children are abused and murdered everyday because of belief. Genocide has always been justified by belief. Belief is the bedrock of theocratic fascism. (I'm feverishly resisting stepping over the precipice into politics!)
Science is improved by better science. I believe something to be true until I no longer have to - until I know, until I see.
I respect anyone's RIGHT to believe, but I don't have to respect WHAT they believe.
Notice, the more you know, the more you question; the less you know, the easier it is to be sure of your stupid, stupid beliefs.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Rocky
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. -- Shakespeare, Wm
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Nathan_Jr
And I should say, if one wants to find out if there is that which has no name, that which is eternal, one may very well find out for oneself. In this finding out, one shall see that belief has nothing to do with any of it.
But, please, PLEASE, do NOT believe me.
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waysider
A hypocrite in all his might,
So wrong in that he thinks he's right.
Still he hears not.
Still he sees not.
Will he?
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Nathan_Jr
If I say "I believe," it is this definition I mean. I believe until better evidence or better argument is presented. Belief is ALWAYS temporary and dependent. It is never held tightly.
The first two definitions more accurately apply to beleef.
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