I view Gen 2 and 3 as allegorical illustrating freedom of choice between good and evil that is available to every living soul.
Does that freedom of choice between good and evil also apply to God who chose to set up evil in the first place? BTW, you didn't answer my question: "So now, what is the real reason for the "wickedness" in mankind and the authority and power of the devil and his spirit followers and the need for a messiah as described in the rest of the bible?"
You most certainly are interpreting it in a fundamentalist sense from my perspective.
What else would you determine to be allegorical in the bible?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life?
1 Cor 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming?
1 Thess 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord?
Faith means different things in the Bible I think most count 5 usages.
Bible Hub gives the following usages for the Greek word pistis: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.Is there one of these usages that does not involve trust?The definitions of each would say the answer is no.
The idea of devil spirits is upsetting. Having spiritual causes of illnesses is upsetting. Mental illnesses which can look like devil spirits are upsetting. Being sick is upsetting. Cancer and chemo is upsetting. VP said cancer was a devil spirit. Then he died of it.
What .... doctrine are you talking about? Those records in the gospels are Jesus healing a couple kids by removing a spiritual cause of the illness?
I'm confused. Are you saying by way of your questions that you believe the child in Mark 9 and Luke 9 did have an unclean or dumb and deaf spirit? If so, this contradicts your previous comment of "some idiot who is blabbing about devil spirits in a medical situation."
So healing the kids was ....?
Again, I'm confused. Is your question referring to Jesus's healing of the child by casting out the spirit in him?
Dang that is real cynical. Not a view I want to share at all.
Since you did not finish the question, I have no clue as to what you think was cynical? One more thing...if you are insinuating that I think healing kids is wrong, then that is some real gaslighting you're doing there Chockfull!
I asked quite a few questions if you are inclined to answer any of them.
I think there are enough positive verses about God and Jesus in the bible that people can accept them both on those terms alone. The bible says God is love and also that there is no fear in love. Therefore, there should be no fear in loving God and living a Christian life. If that is as far as people want to go, there doesn't seem to be any harm in doing so - there are only benefits, one of which is freedom from needing to have an obedient-slave-to-god mentality. I don't know exactly where salvation comes into play here though.
I started this thread in this forum because of its name. I see the whole of scripture shows that Yahweh is not a good god. Any supposed benefits attributed to him come at a very high price, and that is why I now speak out when people say he is good. When you live with an abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful partner, it's not wise to live in denial or say you have to take the bad along with the good. You leave that partner and look for one that is safer and healthier.
One does not need this god of the bible to live a loving, meaningful and peaceful life.
The way you are inserting comments into my quote makes it impossible to answer any of your questions inline and I’m not cutting and pasting every one of them from all over everywhere. If I’m not answering all your questions that is why.
So much of this is Christianity 101.
God as Creator was not a dictator so he did not interfere in His creation every microsecond but set up systems where people could choose to talk to Him or not.
Those who do He helps but not in a direct interference way for the most part. Certain circumstances dictate miracles such as those we read of Jesus on earth.
Mankind has arrived at whatever state he is in through his own choice. Yes this is allegorical as today people also arrive at their own state through their own choice.
What other parts of the Bible are allegorical? A lot of them. Even VPs teaching highlights verses with “figures of speech” as different from a direct reading. Remember the whole Athletes of the Spirit debacle with TWI taking figurative language to a new low?
With respect to the devil spirit comments you are choosing to be confused as you don’t believe they exist. From your mouth.
Jesus healed children by removing a spiritual cause of their illness. At least that is what seems pretty clear in those verses.
Your grandson has a known mental condition that has negative and positive ramifications. This is not a devil spirit. This is not a spiritual cause.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
So now for my questions.
What was Jesus doing to those children if not healing them? If he wasn’t removing a spiritual cause then the only other logical conclusion would involve some form of mental child abuse. Is that what you believe happened?
I am not gaslighting anything. I am commenting on words proceeding from your own mouth. If it’s not gas coming out of your mouth how can it be lit on fire?
Mankind has arrived at whatever state he is in through his own choice. Yes this is allegorical as today people also arrive at their own state through their own choice.
A point I'd like to add here: our choices don't control everything that happens; i.e. things happen also by providence, or accident; whatever way one choose to look at those two.
If you look at life from more than the about 100 years we live on the planet, things start making more sense.
There is no apocalypse, that is fantasy, not reality. There is an end to your world here in the physical, that is why the spiritual is more important. Cause the new heavens and earth are real and now. Just because one is blind to it does not mean it does not exist.
I think there are enough positive verses about God and Jesus in the bible that people can accept them both on those terms alone. The bible says God is love and also that there is no fear in love. Therefore, there should be no fear in loving God and living a Christian life. If that is as far as people want to go, there doesn't seem to be any harm in doing so - there are only benefits, one of which is freedom from needing to have an obedient-slave-to-god mentality. I don't know exactly where salvation comes into play here though.
I started this thread in this forum because of its name. I see the whole of scripture shows that Yahweh is not a good god. Any supposed benefits attributed to him come at a very high price, and that is why I now speak out when people say he is good. When you live with an abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful partner, it's not wise to live in denial or say you have to take the bad along with the good. You leave that partner and look for one that is safer and healthier.
One does not need this god of the bible to live a loving, meaningful and peaceful life.
I guess this is called “personification” where you take all of the negative elements you experienced from a cult, label man’s abuse as God being an abusive partner, and equate some form of leaving Christianity as leaving an abusive marriage arrangement.
Your life your business. Not a path that has the slightest interest for me.
If you are saying I’m living in denial I think maybe the mirror would point 3 fingers back at yourself. You are equating fundamentalism and more specifically the specific bondage of TWI with scripture and all of Christianity. “If that is as far as you want to go” that is the height of ego to think that I am refusing to “go deeper” or some BS you still have ingrained from cult fundamentalism. Being a scribe or a Pharisee is not “going deeper” as accurately illustrated by my Lords interaction with them.
The vast majority of all Christians consider TWI a cult and VPs teachings to be self aggrandizing plagiarism.
So was Jesus abusing those children he cast spirits out of? Still waiting on that answer. What does your “going deeper” tell you there?
If you are saying I’m living in denial I think maybe the mirror would point 3 fingers back at yourself. You are equating fundamentalism and more specifically the specific bondage of TWI with scripture and all of Christianity. “If that is as far as you want to go” that is the height of ego to think that I am refusing to “go deeper” or some BS you still have ingrained from cult fundamentalism. Being a scribe or a Pharisee is not “going deeper” as accurately illustrated by my Lords interaction with them.
The vast majority of all Christians consider TWI a cult and VPs teachings to be self aggrandizing plagiarism.
So was Jesus abusing those children he cast spirits out of? Still waiting on that answer. What does your “going deeper” tell you there?
The highlights (in bold) from your comment above seem to NOT be anything even closely resembling "I" statements.
Btw, you seem to have declared (a reason why) you would not answer Charity's questions. Are you now demanding she answer yours?
There is an end to your world here in the physical, that is why the spiritual is more important. Cause the new heavens and earth are real and now. Just because one is blind to it does not mean it does not exist.
Folks are certainly entitled to those beliefs, but as Christopher Hitchens once said, "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." The new heavens and new earth are an assertion. Accusing people of being blind to them is a convenient way of sidestepping the fact that there is no evidence in favor of the assertion. Perhaps we are blind to the new heavens and the new earth for the same reason we are blind to pixie dust and the Loch Ness Monster: They are figments of the imagination of human beings.
There is an end to our world here in the physical. But that doesn't make the spiritual more important unless the spiritual can be established to exist.
I remember writing in another thread (and in a comPLETEly different context) that if you step back far enough in time, you can dismiss and minimize just about any atrocity, especially those committed in the name of a god. So God tells you to kill a baby, and you do it, figuring the baby gets eternal life in heaven/paradise, so from the eternal perspective, how much harm did you REALLY do?
Yeah, that's a problem there. And it's not academic. Don't make me look up the verses where God commands Israel to kill heathen babies, or the honest-to-evilness exposition by the contemptuous William Lane Craig who argued with a straight face that the real victims of that episode were the Hebrew soldiers who had to carry it out. [Yes, he really said that. No, it's not out of context. Yes, he was serious].
Anyway, it's a LITTLE unfair to cman to make this point in response to what he posted, as I am SURE his meaning was much more benign. Nonetheless, I am compelled to respond with my reasons for rejecting the words of that post.
[I re-read this post and I seem a little harder on cman than I intended. I hope I can convey that while I disagree with what was written, I do so respectfully, and my heart is to explain why. Things got a little hairy between us a couple of weeks ago and I am not intending to resume any hostility that I previously exhibited].
There is an end to our world here in the physical. But that doesn't make the spiritual more important unless the spiritual can be established to exist.
yes of course, and how does that happen?
who can prove it?
who is looking for the proof?
I can't prove anything, but I can point things out to think about and consider for anyone I talk to.
If one is looking for the spiritual then the spiritual needs to be looked at.
So was Jesus abusing those children he cast spirits out of? Still waiting on that answer. What does your “going deeper” tell you there?
I have not been on GSC today because I've been busy but also because I have been trying to figure out your attitude towards me in your recent posts. So here is what I want to share with you.
When you were finally out of twi, you continued for years on the “About the Way” forum talking about your experiences and discussing vpw’s teachings which you no longer believed. Here, on the “Atheism” forum, I have the same right to discuss Christianity and scripture even though I no longer call myself a Christian nor believe in the bible.
For both your situation and mine, everything doesn't become perfectly clear at the time we make such a major spiritual change in life. There are many past experiences, beliefs, feelings and thoughts to share and work through. Having said this, I want to note that you have brought up “not believing” 6 times in your replies to my statements and questions when nothing I had written in them were about my “not believing.” Here they are:
Heb 11:6 – I talked specifically about the issue of absolute trust being necessary with God. Your reply was “If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?”
James 1:5-6 I talked specifically about the issue of absolute trust being necessary with God.Your reply was “If you don’t believe in a God, why would you ever ask Him for wisdom?”
I asked about an all-loving God based on my thoughts about the above two scriptures.Your reply was “And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements (which were yours) shows an unloving God?”
You wrote “If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.”(I had not been talking at all about not believing in a God, so why make this point?)
I said you needed to look deeper into Heb 11:6 because your comment in reply to what I had shared about the verse was simply "I mean is this just common logic ? If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?"Then I shared more about the verse. Your reply again was not on what I had shared but rather: “What I find ironic is someone with no belief in any inspiration in scripture telling me to “look deeper” into scripture.”
After stating I was confused by two of your statements and asked if you were referring to devils spirits in each of them, you did not answer my questions but turned the focus on me for asking about devil spirits. You replied, “With respect to the devil spirit comments, you are choosing to be confused as you don’t believe they exist. From your mouth.”
I think I have been pretty consistent with staying on topic when replying to your comments. I would kindly appreciate it if you would do the same with mine without making out-of-context statements about some lack of belief in God.
I guess this is called “personification” where you take all of the negative elements you experienced from a cult, label man’s abuse as God being an abusive partner, and equate some form of leaving Christianity as leaving an abusive marriage arrangement.
Your life your business. Not a path that has the slightest interest for me.
If you are saying I’m living in denial I think maybe the mirror would point 3 fingers back at yourself. You are equating fundamentalism and more specifically the specific bondage of TWI with scripture and all of Christianity. “If that is as far as you want to go” that is the height of ego to think that I am refusing to “go deeper” or some BS you still have ingrained from cult fundamentalism. Being a scribe or a Pharisee is not “going deeper” as accurately illustrated by my Lords interaction with them.
The vast majority of all Christians consider TWI a cult and VPs teachings to be self aggrandizing plagiarism.
So was Jesus abusing those children he cast spirits out of? Still waiting on that answer. What does your “going deeper” tell you there?
Chockfull, I made no reference to twi or man’s abuse in my post. I was clearly referring to Yahweh according to the scriptures. My example of an “abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful” partner in context related to God, not some man. Sorry you missed my point.
My first paragraph was an acknowledgement that there seems to be no harm if people accept God and Jesus Christ based on the positive verses about them in the bible. I did imply that doing so means these people are ignoring the verses that definitely show God in a negative light.
Is talking about the scriptures that record God sending horrific curses on people or outright killing them fundamentalism? Are these verses not to be taken literally? If not, how should they be taken? (Please remember, the fact that I don’t believe that such a horrendous god exists does not deny my right to question them as part of a discussion about God.)
Now specifically talking about you Chockfull, how far are you going with OT scripture wherein God consistently demands obedience when you wrote in a post “God as Creator was not a dictator so he did not interfere in His creation every microsecond but set up systems where people could choose to talk to Him or not?” (I still plan to reply to that post.)
Three times you bring up twi – my post had nothing to do with them.
So was Jesus abusing those children he cast spirits out of? Still waiting on that answer. What does your “going deeper” tell you there?
This is the first time you mentioned “spirits” in connection with that record which was how Mark and Luke explained it. In the past, you spoke only of a “spiritual cause.”
I wrote: Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting. I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child. That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures.
This paragraph was referring to a time when I was beginning to seriously doubt what the bible said about prayer and trusting God. It was before I had concluded there were no such things as devil spirits.
I wrote: This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful.
This was the statement that caused you to wonder if I was saying Jesus casting out a devil spirit from the child was evil and very harmful. I wrote it after I had deconverted from Christianity.
No, the BS doctrine I was talking about was not about Jesus wanting to deliver a child tormented by a devil spirit. The BS doctrine was about devil spirits in general and specifically about a child having one.
You obviously can’t understand what I was going through at the time because you have never experienced it yourself. I had written previously about how my grandson would sometimes get physically agitated because of his autism and also about his myoclonic seizures where his head would suddenly jerk downwards and forcibly hit whatever was in front of him. He had regular black eyes, bruises, cuts and bumps on his forehead and face. It was painful watching all of this.
That I had at times (before deconverting) considered he might have a devil spirit was because of those gospel records, and this made the situations even more distressing. Whether I was wrong in making that connection is not the point. The point is that now I believe the doctrine that devil spirits exist is evil and very harmful.
This is the first time you mentioned “spirits” in connection with that record which was how Mark and Luke explained it. In the past, you spoke only of a “spiritual cause.”
I wrote: Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting. I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child. That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures.
This paragraph was referring to a time when I was beginning to seriously doubt what the bible said about prayer and trusting God. It was before I had concluded there were no such things as devil spirits.
I wrote: This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful.
This was the statement that caused you to wonder if I was saying Jesus casting out a devil spirit from the child was evil and very harmful. I wrote it after I had deconverted from Christianity.
No, the BS doctrine I was talking about was not about Jesus wanting to deliver a child tormented by a devil spirit. The BS doctrine was about devil spirits in general and specifically about a child having one.
You obviously can’t understand what I was going through at the time because you have never experienced it yourself. I had written previously about how my grandson would sometimes get physically agitated because of his autism and also about his myoclonic seizures where his head would suddenly jerk downwards and forcibly hit whatever was in front of him. He had regular black eyes, bruises, cuts and bumps on his forehead and face. It was painful watching all of this.
That I had at times (before deconverting) considered he might have a devil spirit was because of those gospel records, and this made the situations even more distressing. Whether I was wrong in making that connection is not the point. The point is that now I believe the doctrine that devil spirits exist is evil and very harmful.
This is a long response. No I can’t relate to your exact experience with your grandson. The experiences I’ve had are different.
So is the answer to the question I asked that you believe Jesus was harassing those kids or abusing them mentally?
Because this is a record of him doing something that was observed and recorded.
Is it though? Usually when we say something is a record, it implies it actually happened.
Respectfully, what is the standard that we may agree on in this thread: the bible is fiction? or the bible happened but some refuse to believe it? or something else?
Respectfully, what is the standard that we may agree on in this thread: the bible is fiction? or the bible happened but some refuse to believe it? or something else?
There are other, more ambiguous ways to state it, such as, "It says in verse such and such..." or "according to what's written ...".
Here are two “records” of magic, sorcery, or, if preferred, miracles, performed by Jesus. Which one is fiction? By what standard?
When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream.
He was collecting the flowing water into ponds and made the water instantly pure. He did this with a single command. He then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows. He did this on the sabbath day, and many other boys were playing with him.
But when a Jew saw what Jesus was doing while playing on the sabbath day, he immediately went off and told Joseph, Jesus' father: "See here, your boy is at the ford and has taken mud and fashioned twelve birds with it, and so has violated the sabbath."
So Joseph went there, and as soon as he spotted him he shouted, "Why are you doing what's not permitted on the sabbath?"
But Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: "Be off, fly away, and remembe' me, you who are now alive!" And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily.
The Jews watched with amazement, then left the scene to report to their leaders what they had seen Jesus doing.
…………….
Jesus asks the demon for his name and is told, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” The demons beg Jesus not to send them away, but instead to send them into the pigs on a nearby hillside, which he does. The herd, about two thousand in number, rush down the steep bank into the sea and are drowned.
This is a long response. No I can’t relate to your exact experience with your grandson. The experiences I’ve had are different.
So is the answer to the question I asked that you believe Jesus was harassing those kids or abusing them mentally?
Because this is a record of him doing something that was observed and recorded.
Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore (mangled, convulsed), and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. 27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
That was some spirit written about in these verses, but the words say the spirit convulsed the child so violently that he appeared lifeless, not Jesus. Did Jesus know ahead of time this would happen to the child when casting out the spirit, then my opinion is that yes, he did abuse him mentally. Jesus could just as easily commanded the spirit to come out of him GENTLY, and enter no more into him.
If Jesus did not know, my opinion would be no, he did not abuse him mentally but I'd have to point out that the spirit came out of the child giving Jesus the "middle finger." (IMO)
Here are other verses of Jesus casting out devil spirits. I believe these are fictional stories but if they were inspired by God, they are quite revealing about his son who always did his father's will. Some might disagree with my reviews of them, but that's no problem.
Man in a synagogue - (Luke 4:33-35, Mark 1:23-26) the spirit had convulsed him so the man was thrown down when leaving but it "did not injure" him. But here's the interesting thing: the devil spirit gave Jesus some free advertising saying, "Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God." This, however, displeased Jesus for he commanded the spirit to "hold his tongue." Maybe the spirit let the cat out of the bag before Jesus had the chance to claim it for himself.
A blind and mute demoniac - No harm done. (Matt 12:22)
The Gadarene demoniac - No harm done to the man (Mark 5:1-13), but here's the awful thing: Jesus had a conversation with this devil spirit called Legion who asked Jesus not to send the many spirits in the man away out of the country but into a great herd of swine. So, Jesus gave them leave and sure enough, the spirits entered the swine which then ran violently into the sea. (That must have cost the owner big time).
A mute demoniac No (Luke 11:14), but here's a comforting thought: in verses 24-26, Jesus taught when an unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, I will return to my house and when he does he takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself so that the last state of that man is worse than the first.
Daughter of a Greek mother No (Mark 7:24-30), (21), but here's the disgusting thing: when you add on Matt 15:21-28, you find out that Jesus refused to deliver the daughter because he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, so she went and worshipped him only to be referred as a dog by Jesus. BUT, when she gave an incredibly humble response by pointing out that even dogs get to eat of the crumbs that fall from their master's table, Jesus commented about her "great faith" and healed the daughter.
Some consider the story of Jesus casting demons into pigs causing the death of 2000 valuable livestock near the Sea of Galilee, where people were likely living hand-to-mouth, a historical record. The same will not consider the story of Jesus animating clay sparrows to life part of the historical record.
Both are fantastically weird and awesome stories! But historical records?
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waysider
Yeah, see. That kinda leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We were either following the teachings of a man with devil spirits or he was wrong about what he taught. That means he could have been
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Charity
I think there are enough positive verses about God and Jesus in the bible that people can accept them both on those terms alone. The bible says God is love and also that there is no fear in love. Therefore, there should be no fear in loving God and living a Christian life. If that is as far as people want to go, there doesn't seem to be any harm in doing so - there are only benefits, one of which is freedom from needing to have an obedient-slave-to-god mentality. I don't know exactly where salvation comes into play here though.
I started this thread in this forum because of its name. I see the whole of scripture shows that Yahweh is not a good god. Any supposed benefits attributed to him come at a very high price, and that is why I now speak out when people say he is good. When you live with an abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful partner, it's not wise to live in denial or say you have to take the bad along with the good. You leave that partner and look for one that is safer and healthier.
One does not need this god of the bible to live a loving, meaningful and peaceful life.
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chockfull
The way you are inserting comments into my quote makes it impossible to answer any of your questions inline and I’m not cutting and pasting every one of them from all over everywhere. If I’m not answering all your questions that is why.
So much of this is Christianity 101.
God as Creator was not a dictator so he did not interfere in His creation every microsecond but set up systems where people could choose to talk to Him or not.
Those who do He helps but not in a direct interference way for the most part. Certain circumstances dictate miracles such as those we read of Jesus on earth.
Mankind has arrived at whatever state he is in through his own choice. Yes this is allegorical as today people also arrive at their own state through their own choice.
What other parts of the Bible are allegorical? A lot of them. Even VPs teaching highlights verses with “figures of speech” as different from a direct reading. Remember the whole Athletes of the Spirit debacle with TWI taking figurative language to a new low?
With respect to the devil spirit comments you are choosing to be confused as you don’t believe they exist. From your mouth.
Jesus healed children by removing a spiritual cause of their illness. At least that is what seems pretty clear in those verses.
Your grandson has a known mental condition that has negative and positive ramifications. This is not a devil spirit. This is not a spiritual cause.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
So now for my questions.
What was Jesus doing to those children if not healing them? If he wasn’t removing a spiritual cause then the only other logical conclusion would involve some form of mental child abuse. Is that what you believe happened?
I am not gaslighting anything. I am commenting on words proceeding from your own mouth. If it’s not gas coming out of your mouth how can it be lit on fire?
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oldiesman
A point I'd like to add here: our choices don't control everything that happens; i.e. things happen also by providence, or accident; whatever way one choose to look at those two.
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cman
If you look at life from more than the about 100 years we live on the planet, things start making more sense.
There is no apocalypse, that is fantasy, not reality. There is an end to your world here in the physical, that is why the spiritual is more important. Cause the new heavens and earth are real and now. Just because one is blind to it does not mean it does not exist.
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chockfull
I guess this is called “personification” where you take all of the negative elements you experienced from a cult, label man’s abuse as God being an abusive partner, and equate some form of leaving Christianity as leaving an abusive marriage arrangement.
Your life your business. Not a path that has the slightest interest for me.
If you are saying I’m living in denial I think maybe the mirror would point 3 fingers back at yourself. You are equating fundamentalism and more specifically the specific bondage of TWI with scripture and all of Christianity. “If that is as far as you want to go” that is the height of ego to think that I am refusing to “go deeper” or some BS you still have ingrained from cult fundamentalism. Being a scribe or a Pharisee is not “going deeper” as accurately illustrated by my Lords interaction with them.
The vast majority of all Christians consider TWI a cult and VPs teachings to be self aggrandizing plagiarism.
So was Jesus abusing those children he cast spirits out of? Still waiting on that answer. What does your “going deeper” tell you there?
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Rocky
Btw, you seem to have declared (a reason why) you would not answer Charity's questions. Are you now demanding she answer yours?
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Raf
Folks are certainly entitled to those beliefs, but as Christopher Hitchens once said, "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." The new heavens and new earth are an assertion. Accusing people of being blind to them is a convenient way of sidestepping the fact that there is no evidence in favor of the assertion. Perhaps we are blind to the new heavens and the new earth for the same reason we are blind to pixie dust and the Loch Ness Monster: They are figments of the imagination of human beings.
There is an end to our world here in the physical. But that doesn't make the spiritual more important unless the spiritual can be established to exist.
I remember writing in another thread (and in a comPLETEly different context) that if you step back far enough in time, you can dismiss and minimize just about any atrocity, especially those committed in the name of a god. So God tells you to kill a baby, and you do it, figuring the baby gets eternal life in heaven/paradise, so from the eternal perspective, how much harm did you REALLY do?
Yeah, that's a problem there. And it's not academic. Don't make me look up the verses where God commands Israel to kill heathen babies, or the honest-to-evilness exposition by the contemptuous William Lane Craig who argued with a straight face that the real victims of that episode were the Hebrew soldiers who had to carry it out. [Yes, he really said that. No, it's not out of context. Yes, he was serious].
Anyway, it's a LITTLE unfair to cman to make this point in response to what he posted, as I am SURE his meaning was much more benign. Nonetheless, I am compelled to respond with my reasons for rejecting the words of that post.
Edited by Raf[I re-read this post and I seem a little harder on cman than I intended. I hope I can convey that while I disagree with what was written, I do so respectfully, and my heart is to explain why. Things got a little hairy between us a couple of weeks ago and I am not intending to resume any hostility that I previously exhibited].
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Raf
By now it should be clear that Charity's answer would be the same as mine: These incidents never happened.
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cman
no worries raf...
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cman
yes of course, and how does that happen?
who can prove it?
who is looking for the proof?
I can't prove anything, but I can point things out to think about and consider for anyone I talk to.
If one is looking for the spiritual then the spiritual needs to be looked at.
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Charity
I have not been on GSC today because I've been busy but also because I have been trying to figure out your attitude towards me in your recent posts. So here is what I want to share with you.
When you were finally out of twi, you continued for years on the “About the Way” forum talking about your experiences and discussing vpw’s teachings which you no longer believed. Here, on the “Atheism” forum, I have the same right to discuss Christianity and scripture even though I no longer call myself a Christian nor believe in the bible.
For both your situation and mine, everything doesn't become perfectly clear at the time we make such a major spiritual change in life. There are many past experiences, beliefs, feelings and thoughts to share and work through. Having said this, I want to note that you have brought up “not believing” 6 times in your replies to my statements and questions when nothing I had written in them were about my “not believing.” Here they are:
Heb 11:6 – I talked specifically about the issue of absolute trust being necessary with God. Your reply was “If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?”
James 1:5-6 I talked specifically about the issue of absolute trust being necessary with God. Your reply was “If you don’t believe in a God, why would you ever ask Him for wisdom?”
I asked about an all-loving God based on my thoughts about the above two scriptures. Your reply was “And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements (which were yours) shows an unloving God?”
You wrote “If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.” (I had not been talking at all about not believing in a God, so why make this point?)
I said you needed to look deeper into Heb 11:6 because your comment in reply to what I had shared about the verse was simply "I mean is this just common logic ? If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?" Then I shared more about the verse. Your reply again was not on what I had shared but rather: “What I find ironic is someone with no belief in any inspiration in scripture telling me to “look deeper” into scripture.”
After stating I was confused by two of your statements and asked if you were referring to devils spirits in each of them, you did not answer my questions but turned the focus on me for asking about devil spirits. You replied, “With respect to the devil spirit comments, you are choosing to be confused as you don’t believe they exist. From your mouth.”
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Charity
Chockfull, I made no reference to twi or man’s abuse in my post. I was clearly referring to Yahweh according to the scriptures. My example of an “abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful” partner in context related to God, not some man. Sorry you missed my point.
My first paragraph was an acknowledgement that there seems to be no harm if people accept God and Jesus Christ based on the positive verses about them in the bible. I did imply that doing so means these people are ignoring the verses that definitely show God in a negative light.
Is talking about the scriptures that record God sending horrific curses on people or outright killing them fundamentalism? Are these verses not to be taken literally? If not, how should they be taken? (Please remember, the fact that I don’t believe that such a horrendous god exists does not deny my right to question them as part of a discussion about God.)
Now specifically talking about you Chockfull, how far are you going with OT scripture wherein God consistently demands obedience when you wrote in a post “God as Creator was not a dictator so he did not interfere in His creation every microsecond but set up systems where people could choose to talk to Him or not?” (I still plan to reply to that post.)
Three times you bring up twi – my post had nothing to do with them.
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Charity
This is the first time you mentioned “spirits” in connection with that record which was how Mark and Luke explained it. In the past, you spoke only of a “spiritual cause.”
I wrote: Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting. I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child. That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures.
This paragraph was referring to a time when I was beginning to seriously doubt what the bible said about prayer and trusting God. It was before I had concluded there were no such things as devil spirits.
I wrote: This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful.
This was the statement that caused you to wonder if I was saying Jesus casting out a devil spirit from the child was evil and very harmful. I wrote it after I had deconverted from Christianity.
No, the BS doctrine I was talking about was not about Jesus wanting to deliver a child tormented by a devil spirit. The BS doctrine was about devil spirits in general and specifically about a child having one.
You obviously can’t understand what I was going through at the time because you have never experienced it yourself. I had written previously about how my grandson would sometimes get physically agitated because of his autism and also about his myoclonic seizures where his head would suddenly jerk downwards and forcibly hit whatever was in front of him. He had regular black eyes, bruises, cuts and bumps on his forehead and face. It was painful watching all of this.
That I had at times (before deconverting) considered he might have a devil spirit was because of those gospel records, and this made the situations even more distressing. Whether I was wrong in making that connection is not the point. The point is that now I believe the doctrine that devil spirits exist is evil and very harmful.
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chockfull
This is a long response. No I can’t relate to your exact experience with your grandson. The experiences I’ve had are different.
So is the answer to the question I asked that you believe Jesus was harassing those kids or abusing them mentally?
Because this is a record of him doing something that was observed and recorded.
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waysider
Is it though? Usually when we say something is a record, it implies it actually happened.
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oldiesman
Respectfully, what is the standard that we may agree on in this thread: the bible is fiction? or the bible happened but some refuse to believe it? or something else?
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waysider
There are other, more ambiguous ways to state it, such as, "It says in verse such and such..." or "according to what's written ...".
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Nathan_Jr
Here are two “records” of magic, sorcery, or, if preferred, miracles, performed by Jesus. Which one is fiction? By what standard?
When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream.
He was collecting the flowing water into ponds and made the water instantly pure. He did this with a single command. He then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows. He did this on the sabbath day, and many other boys were playing with him.
But when a Jew saw what Jesus was doing while playing on the sabbath day, he immediately went off and told Joseph, Jesus' father: "See here, your boy is at the ford and has taken mud and fashioned twelve birds with it, and so has violated the sabbath."
So Joseph went there, and as soon as he spotted him he shouted, "Why are you doing what's not permitted on the sabbath?"
But Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: "Be off, fly away, and remembe' me, you who are now alive!" And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily.
The Jews watched with amazement, then left the scene to report to their leaders what they had seen Jesus doing.
…………….
Jesus asks the demon for his name and is told, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” The demons beg Jesus not to send them away, but instead to send them into the pigs on a nearby hillside, which he does. The herd, about two thousand in number, rush down the steep bank into the sea and are drowned.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Charity
Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore (mangled, convulsed), and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. 27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
That was some spirit written about in these verses, but the words say the spirit convulsed the child so violently that he appeared lifeless, not Jesus. Did Jesus know ahead of time this would happen to the child when casting out the spirit, then my opinion is that yes, he did abuse him mentally. Jesus could just as easily commanded the spirit to come out of him GENTLY, and enter no more into him.
If Jesus did not know, my opinion would be no, he did not abuse him mentally but I'd have to point out that the spirit came out of the child giving Jesus the "middle finger." (IMO)
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waysider
And this is a good thing?
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Nathan_Jr
Not at all, unless you consider sorcery a good thing. But some call it a record, to your point.
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Charity
Here are other verses of Jesus casting out devil spirits. I believe these are fictional stories but if they were inspired by God, they are quite revealing about his son who always did his father's will. Some might disagree with my reviews of them, but that's no problem.
Man in a synagogue - (Luke 4:33-35, Mark 1:23-26) the spirit had convulsed him so the man was thrown down when leaving but it "did not injure" him. But here's the interesting thing: the devil spirit gave Jesus some free advertising saying, "Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God." This, however, displeased Jesus for he commanded the spirit to "hold his tongue." Maybe the spirit let the cat out of the bag before Jesus had the chance to claim it for himself.
A blind and mute demoniac - No harm done. (Matt 12:22)
The Gadarene demoniac - No harm done to the man (Mark 5:1-13), but here's the awful thing: Jesus had a conversation with this devil spirit called Legion who asked Jesus not to send the many spirits in the man away out of the country but into a great herd of swine. So, Jesus gave them leave and sure enough, the spirits entered the swine which then ran violently into the sea. (That must have cost the owner big time).
A mute demoniac No (Luke 11:14), but here's a comforting thought: in verses 24-26, Jesus taught when an unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, I will return to my house and when he does he takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself so that the last state of that man is worse than the first.
Daughter of a Greek mother No (Mark 7:24-30), (21), but here's the disgusting thing: when you add on Matt 15:21-28, you find out that Jesus refused to deliver the daughter because he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, so she went and worshipped him only to be referred as a dog by Jesus. BUT, when she gave an incredibly humble response by pointing out that even dogs get to eat of the crumbs that fall from their master's table, Jesus commented about her "great faith" and healed the daughter.
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Nathan_Jr
Some consider the story of Jesus casting demons into pigs causing the death of 2000 valuable livestock near the Sea of Galilee, where people were likely living hand-to-mouth, a historical record. The same will not consider the story of Jesus animating clay sparrows to life part of the historical record.
Both are fantastically weird and awesome stories! But historical records?
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