I'm not sure why you directed that at me, but it's OK. I don't mind.
Last summer, through no fault of my own, I was injured in a catastrophic car accident. My life was changed forever. I'll never be the same person I was. Was there a still, small voice I missed? I'm not going to beat myself up wondering.
I am sorry Waysider. It took me a while to finish that post, and I had forgotten in the meantime who had sent it. I'll go and edit it now.
I remember you sharing about your accident on GSC, and I know it took you a while to be well enough to come back on. Welcome back - I missed your humour.
Your statement is true in the sense that no one is all-knowing, so there are many uncertainties in life. But in Christianity, this is not allowed. God expects (actually demands) believers to have absolute certainty in him and in the "word" he has given them (Heb 11:6, James 1:5-6). IMO, this puts believers between a rock and a hard place - not a healthy place to be in.
Now why would an all-loving God want to do this to his children?
As the song goes "We'll understand it, all by-and-by". Faith helps overcome the mysteries.
Fundamentalist is a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture. Do you take Eph 3:20 literally? Or the rapture, great tribulation, Armageddon, the final judgment and the lake of fire? Who decides what's literal or not and what are their decisions based on?
I thought that was supposed to be Wierwille?
His decisions were private interpretation. I'm reasonably convinced of that.
He may have started out with good intentions. But the love of money IS the root of all evil, right?
His decisions were private interpretation. I'm reasonably convinced of that.
He may have started out with good intentions. But the love of money IS the root of all evil, right?
Another aspect of fundamentalism is the belief in the historical accuracy and inerrancy of the Bible. I'm sure vpw had a quote or slogan about this that isn't coming to mind at the moment.
nothing wrong with dumping or keeping religious beliefs-doesn't matter that much anyway
get in touch with yourself, whatever that means to you, grow a garden or get a dog, spend some time with nature, release yourself from everything to get connected to everything in newness of your spirit
get in touch with yourself, whatever that means to you, grow a garden or get a dog, spend some time with nature, release yourself from everything to get connected to everything in newness of your spirit
The weird and disconcerting thing about deconverting is realizing that one was never born again in the first place. So what was going on then all those years when I believed I was a Christian? The speaking in tongues - it was always the same sounds unless I purposefully "moved my lips" differently as in an excellor session. The love of the word - it was genuine partly because I chose not to focus on the parts that were disturbing or didn't make sense and partly because of the positive parts about love, peace, joy, hope, etc. The fellowship of like-minded people - it was wonderful like it would be for any group which shared the same beliefs or interests.
What about the times I believed God did answer my prayers or blessed me - would they have happened even if I didn't believe in God at the time? When each surgery on my grandson was successful, was it solely because of the skilled doctors and nurses? Or when I got a much-needed job, was it solely because I happened to be the best candidate? When my mother, heavily medicated because of her final days of lung cancer, stopped having hallucinations or nightmares during the night so she no longer needed to be restrained, was it solely because I was there holding her hand?
For these situations and all the others, they very well could have happened without God's intervention. Good things and bad things happen in life to everyone - believer or non-believer; a fact that has nothing to do with believing God makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
I'm aware of the testimonies of others who believe miracles have happened in their lives, and I am not going to deny they were indeed miracles. I speak only about my life. I also know of verses that contradict my way of thinking as well as condemn them, but they're not holding water for me anymore. However, for those who are hanging onto their Christian beliefs by a thread out of fear, seeing life outside of that religious paradigm can help them let go of that fear and those beliefs.
Trying to respond to this I think a previous response somehow showed up missing.
What I find ironic is someone with no belief in any inspiration in scripture telling me to “look deeper” into scripture.
No my remark is not snarky it is in the practical realm.
What is pleasing God? It varies per individual but to me it involves seeking out a virtuous life. I like my life better seeking out virtue than I do trying to parse over some VPW regurgitation of manifestations in a book he stole or “the law of believing” which actually I think we’ve shown to have spiritualist origins here on GSC.
Does God “always” provide wisdom when I ask? I think so, whether it is in the form of the word of a friend, a sunrise, an idea, an observation about nature, a secular writing striking me in a way, or about a hundred other practical ways I could mention.
But to you He is “an unloving Father” because of how you interpret Gen 2 & 3 and are stuck on VPW believing fantasy and some idiot who is blabbing about devil spirits in a medical situation.
Yeah I get it. It’s always the hypocrites that drive people away from churches and they are everywhere.
But what do you want to build in your life? Tearing down idols is only half of a renovation project.
I could try to tell you what I see, or rather what I have been shown, but words cannot convey it or convince anyone of it, you have to see it for yourself. And God is always showing everything always, one just has to wake up from the sleep we have been seduced into. Cause the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, scared of letting go.
These are the things Jesus taught. It, the spirit, is what he was talking about...clearly. Instead of the epistles to be read all the time, it is better to read the gospels and proverbs, psalms....to see what they were seeing....
Paul wrote to those who have been awakened from sleep, born again, yes, but what does that mean=awake, the spirit uncoiled from inside. He constantly talked about the spirit inside, as well as in the other men who wrote letters, like John and Peter and James.
you can find some answers in Christian doctrines and bible readings, maybe in some church dogma....
the only true satisfying answers are from Christ in you
a quote I saw this morning from "Charter for Compassion"
"Your soul,
that inner quiet space,
is yours to consult.
It will always guide you
in the right direction."
~Wayne Dyer
You make a good point. There are words of wisdom in the bible amongst the many harmful concepts it proclaims. Some who have deconverted continue to read the bible from a fictional viewpoint and look for what lessons might be hidden in the myths. I'm not at that place though.
It's a beautiful quote you shared. Biblically, it would be refuted by Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:" (See also Rom 3:10-18 and Gal 5:19-21)
It's a terrible thing to teach children how wicked they are because of having a sin nature. There seems to be little or nothing written in the bible about the goodness of people apart from God being in their lives. We know this is not true! Are humans perfect - no. But it is not because of an "original sin" that was passed on to us because of a mythical Adam and Eve story in Genesis.
I think Dyer's quote about the soul directing you in the right direction is wise when you believe in an inherit worth in all people and a desire to see good manifested in your life.
I could try to tell you what I see, or rather what I have been shown, but words cannot convey it or convince anyone of it, you have to see it for yourself. And God is always showing everything always, one just has to wake up from the sleep we have been seduced into. Cause the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, scared of letting go.
Thanks cman for the post. I don't believe that God is always showing everything always. That there are so many denominations teaching totally different things on many different topics is a sign of mass confusion when it comes to understanding God. As for the flesh (meaning the sin nature in everyone) being weak and fearful, I guess it's true if one believes it exists.
It's a beautiful quote you shared. Biblically, it would be refuted by Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:" (See also Rom 3:10-18 and Gal 5:19-21)
yes we are stewards, as Jesus taught, as Paul taught
These are the things Jesus taught. It, the spirit, is what he was talking about...clearly. Instead of the epistles to be read all the time, it is better to read the gospels and proverbs, psalms....to see what they were seeing....
For a while, I had been reading and hearing from different sources the shocking belief that Paul's epistles were heretical because they contradicted what Jesus taught in the gospel. I thought this was because these people did not understand the doctrine of the mystery which was hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul and since Jesus was not God, he could not have taught it before his death. Therefore Paul, by revelation from Jesus Christ, was able to teach who we are and what we have in Christ because the resurrection and ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God had since occurred.
you hang on to these church teachings as if they are the truth, are they? or are they the anchor that keeps you asleep, sleeping comfortably in your mind-set
here is another
"If you believe it will work out,
you'll see opportunities.
If you believe it won't,
you will see obstacles."
~Wayne Dyer…
and not to put you down in any way, it's just the way it is
you hang on to these church teachings as if they are the truth, are they? or are they the anchor that keeps you asleep, sleeping comfortably in your mind-set
here is another
"If you believe it will work out,
you'll see opportunities.
If you believe it won't,
you will see obstacles."
~Wayne Dyer…
and not to put you down in any way, it's just the way it is
I don't see you putting me down in your posts. I think the anchor that helps me sleep now is being thankful for what I have, especially my family.
**My reply to your comment won't come up when I clicked on to quote it, so I copied and pasted it instead. Your words are in black, mine are in blue.**
Hebrews 11:6 - I mean is this just common logic ? If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?
Look deeper: the verse is about more than just believing God exists. You must believe who this God is. He ISa rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
- vs 4-7 is a list of how God rewarded people because they had pleased him, meaning they obeyed him. That is who this God that we believe exists is. He is also the God that cursed and killed those who did not obey him? It's written throughout the OT and is foretold to happen in Revelation.
James 1:5-6 ask God for wisdom
If you don’t believe in a God why would you ever ask Him for wisdom? Again rocket science 101.
Kind of a snarky remark, don't you think? You are misinterpreting what I wrote. What about you Chockfull - has God always given you wisdom when you asked? After asking, have you always heard that still small voice to guide you through a confusing, difficult time? If not, why do you think that was? If God always has, why do you think that was?
And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements shows an unloving God?
For many years, I did believe he was a loving God and that all the problems in the world were because of those who were rejecting God, believing wrong doctrine, or not trusting him enough, all of which tied his hands behind his back and allowed Satan to cause havoc. I no longer believe in a loving God if Genesis 2 & 3 are true and if they're not, then why believe anything written afterward about Lucifer becoming the god of this world and about how wicked mankind became and that a promised messiah was necessary to save us from our wickedness.
What rock and what hard place is it that you find yourself in either way?
I explained it in my post, whether you accept it or not is your choice. Question: how many people were between a rock and a hard place because of the law of believing? The evil of that doctrine was how it focused on one's ability to believe which lead to feelings of guilt. Trusting God, however, is right because the focus is now on how faithful and powerful God is so we are free from feelings of guilt. It's all in God's hands now. Well, God's hands are still tied if we aren't trusting him enough (meaning without having any doubt).
Want some more rocket science 101?
If you never read the Bible you won’t understand the Bible.
If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.
My post was about bible-believing Christians so your two statements above are irrelevant.
But a fundamentalist, hand in a glove absolutist? Yeah that’s what wrecks the Bible and any inspirational truth. And places believers in bondage. And drives them away completely.
Fundamentalist is a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture. Do you take Eph 3:20 literally? Or the rapture, great tribulation, Armageddon, the final judgment and the lake of fire? Who decides what's literal or not and what are their decisions based on?
2 hours ago, chockfull said:
What I find ironic is someone with no belief in any inspiration in scripture telling me to “look deeper” into scripture.
For the purpose of discussion on GSC or with anyone else, I still use scripture to explain my reason for deconverting. I asked you to look deeper into Heb 11:6 because you had only referred to the first half of the verse in your reply - not the second half.
No my remark is not snarky it is in the practical realm.
The reason I felt your reply (which included the remark "rocket science 101" was snarky was because you had misinterpreted what I had said in my two posts to Rocky.My references to Heb 11:6 and James 1:5-6 were not about how they affected me but how they affected believers.
What is pleasing God? It varies per individual but to me it involves seeking out a virtuous life. I like my life better seeking out virtue than I do trying to parse over some VPW regurgitation of manifestations in a book he stole or “the law of believing” which actually I think we’ve shown to have spiritualist origins here on GSC.
I quoted verses that showed God's definition of pleasing him. Vs 4: By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain. Vs 5 By faith Enoch...pleased God (Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God). Vs 7 By faith Noah...prepared an ark. If you want to define pleasing God some other way than complete obedience to him that's fine but don't fault me for quoting scripture to define it.
Does God “always” provide wisdom when I ask? I think so, whether it is in the form of the word of a friend, an idea, an observation about nature, a secular writing striking me in a way, or about a hundred other practical ways I could mention.
You are free to give God credit when you find wisdom in the words of men but again, my post was about what the bible says. James 1:5 says "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all men liberally..." (1 Cor 3:19, Pro 2:6)
Yeah I get it. It’s always the hypocrites that drive people away from churches and they are everywhere.
No you don't get it - there are biblical reasons that drive people away from God and there are plenty of them in scripture.
But what do you want to build in your life? Tearing down idols is only half of a renovation project.
Please specify one idol you think I have torn down. I have torn down verses I no longer believe so if you think the bible is an idol, then I guess you're right.
But to you He is “an unloving Father” because of how you interpret Gen 2 & 3 and are stuck on VPW believing fantasy and some idiot who is blabbing about devil spirits in a medical situation.
1) I did not give an interpretation of Gen 2 & 3. I referred to them exactly how they were written. Would you, as a loving father, simply let your perfect child who has no knowledge of evil nor of the existence of a cunning and evil arch-enemy of yours deal with such a creature on her own, knowing that she would be deceived by his craftiness? Would you not correct her before she went to your other child and offered him the forbidden fruit you had placed in their home? Would the matter of testing their obedience to you supersede theyou knew would happen after theyate the fruit?
The story makes no sense as I think you know, but millions of people still believe it is how sin entered the world. So now, what is the real reason for the "wickedness" in mankind and the authority and power of the devil and his spirit followers and the need for a messiah as described in the rest of the bible?
2) Concerning the rest of your sentence:
I was not stuck on vpw's law of believing. I was stuck on trusting God. There is a difference - the former is a false doctrine and the latter is scriptural knowing that the word "faith," used over 200 times in the bible, means trust.
The devil spirits I connected with my grandson were not because of some idiot who was blabbing about them in a medical situation. Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting. I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child. That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures.
Mark 9:17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb (mute, speechless) spirit; 18And wheresoever he takes him, he tears (seizes) him: and he foams, and gnashes with his teeth, and pines (withers, stiffens) away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
Luke 9:38And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. 39And, lo, a spirit takes him, and he suddenly cries out; and it tears (convulses) him that he foams again, and bruising him hardly departs from him.
Remember, I had not began deconverting during this time. And even now, just a month after realizing there are no such things as devil spirits, I still cried while reading these verses before copying them into this post. This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful.
1) I did not give an interpretation of Gen 2 & 3. I referred to them exactly how they were written. Would you, as a loving father, simply let your perfect child who has no knowledge of evil nor of the existence of a cunning and evil arch-enemy of yours deal with such a creature on her own, knowing that she would be deceived by his craftiness? Would you not correct her before she went to your other child and offered him the forbidden fruit you had placed in their home? Would the matter of testing their obedience to you supersede theyou knew would happen after theyate the fruit?
The story makes no sense as I think you know, but millions of people still believe it is how sin entered the world. So now, what is the real reason for the "wickedness" in mankind and the authority and power of the devil and his spirit followers and the need for a messiah as described in the rest of the bible?
2) Concerning the rest of your sentence:
I was not stuck on vpw's law of believing. I was stuck on trusting God. There is a difference - the former is a false doctrine and the latter is scriptural knowing that the word "faith," used over 200 times in the bible, means trust.
The devil spirits I connected with my grandson were not because of some idiot who was blabbing about them in a medical situation. Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting. I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child. That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures.
Mark 17:17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb (mute, speechless) spirit; 18And wheresoever he takes him, he tears (seizes) him: and he foams, and gnashes with his teeth, and pines (withers, stiffens) away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
Luke 9:38And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. 39And, lo, a spirit takes him, and he suddenly cries out; and it tears (convulses) him that he foams again, and bruising him hardly departs from him.
Remember, I had not began deconverting during this time. And even now, just a month after realizing there are no such things as devil spirits, I still cried while reading these verses before copying them into this post. This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful.
I view Gen 2 and 3 as allegorical illustrating freedom of choice between good and evil that is available to every living soul.
You most certainly are interpreting it in a fundamentalist sense from my perspective.
Faith means different things in the Bible I think most count 5 usages.
The idea of devil spirits is upsetting. Having spiritual causes of illnesses is upsetting. Mental illnesses which can look like devil spirits are upsetting. Being sick is upsetting. Cancer and chemo is upsetting. VP said cancer was a devil spirit. Then he died of it.
What .... doctrine are you talking about? Those records in the gospels are Jesus healing a couple kids by removing a spiritual cause of the illness?
So healing the kids was ....? Dang that is real cynical. Not a view I want to share at all.
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waysider
Yeah, see. That kinda leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We were either following the teachings of a man with devil spirits or he was wrong about what he taught. That means he could have been
Raf
I consider myself humanist as well. Since there is no hierarchy in humanism, no one really gets to define it. This website gathers various definitions that permit us to ascertain some kind of co
waysider
When you consider the irony in this, it's almost comical in a perversely twisted way. Want something from God? Follow a complicated formula. Make sure to cross every T and dot every I. Want
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Charity
I am sorry Waysider. It took me a while to finish that post, and I had forgotten in the meantime who had sent it. I'll go and edit it now.
I remember you sharing about your accident on GSC, and I know it took you a while to be well enough to come back on. Welcome back - I missed your humour.
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oldiesman
As the song goes "We'll understand it, all by-and-by". Faith helps overcome the mysteries.
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Rocky
I thought that was supposed to be Wierwille?
His decisions were private interpretation. I'm reasonably convinced of that.
He may have started out with good intentions. But the love of money IS the root of all evil, right?
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Charity
Another aspect of fundamentalism is the belief in the historical accuracy and inerrancy of the Bible. I'm sure vpw had a quote or slogan about this that isn't coming to mind at the moment.
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Charity
That's what I kept hearing when I would ask Christians about the trinity.
"Farther Along" - sang it all the time in fellowships. Encourages Christians to remain faithful, but it also discourages them from asking questions.
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cman
nothing wrong with dumping or keeping religious beliefs-doesn't matter that much anyway
get in touch with yourself, whatever that means to you, grow a garden or get a dog, spend some time with nature, release yourself from everything to get connected to everything in newness of your spirit
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waysider
Sounds more like finding a hobby.
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oldiesman
True. On the trinity, can't rely on the bible for that as the scriptures vary, so must of necessity be accepted by faith.
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Charity
The weird and disconcerting thing about deconverting is realizing that one was never born again in the first place. So what was going on then all those years when I believed I was a Christian? The speaking in tongues - it was always the same sounds unless I purposefully "moved my lips" differently as in an excellor session. The love of the word - it was genuine partly because I chose not to focus on the parts that were disturbing or didn't make sense and partly because of the positive parts about love, peace, joy, hope, etc. The fellowship of like-minded people - it was wonderful like it would be for any group which shared the same beliefs or interests.
What about the times I believed God did answer my prayers or blessed me - would they have happened even if I didn't believe in God at the time? When each surgery on my grandson was successful, was it solely because of the skilled doctors and nurses? Or when I got a much-needed job, was it solely because I happened to be the best candidate? When my mother, heavily medicated because of her final days of lung cancer, stopped having hallucinations or nightmares during the night so she no longer needed to be restrained, was it solely because I was there holding her hand?
For these situations and all the others, they very well could have happened without God's intervention. Good things and bad things happen in life to everyone - believer or non-believer; a fact that has nothing to do with believing God makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
I'm aware of the testimonies of others who believe miracles have happened in their lives, and I am not going to deny they were indeed miracles. I speak only about my life. I also know of verses that contradict my way of thinking as well as condemn them, but they're not holding water for me anymore. However, for those who are hanging onto their Christian beliefs by a thread out of fear, seeing life outside of that religious paradigm can help them let go of that fear and those beliefs.
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Charity
Maybe that's what Christianity is.
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chockfull
Trying to respond to this I think a previous response somehow showed up missing.
What I find ironic is someone with no belief in any inspiration in scripture telling me to “look deeper” into scripture.
No my remark is not snarky it is in the practical realm.
What is pleasing God? It varies per individual but to me it involves seeking out a virtuous life. I like my life better seeking out virtue than I do trying to parse over some VPW regurgitation of manifestations in a book he stole or “the law of believing” which actually I think we’ve shown to have spiritualist origins here on GSC.
Does God “always” provide wisdom when I ask? I think so, whether it is in the form of the word of a friend, a sunrise, an idea, an observation about nature, a secular writing striking me in a way, or about a hundred other practical ways I could mention.
But to you He is “an unloving Father” because of how you interpret Gen 2 & 3 and are stuck on VPW believing fantasy and some idiot who is blabbing about devil spirits in a medical situation.
Yeah I get it. It’s always the hypocrites that drive people away from churches and they are everywhere.
But what do you want to build in your life? Tearing down idols is only half of a renovation project.
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cman
you can find some answers in Christian doctrines and bible readings, maybe in some church dogma....
the only true satisfying answers are from Christ in you
a quote I saw this morning from "Charter for Compassion"
"Your soul,
that inner quiet space,
is yours to consult.
It will always guide you
in the right direction."
~Wayne Dyer
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cman
I could try to tell you what I see, or rather what I have been shown, but words cannot convey it or convince anyone of it, you have to see it for yourself. And God is always showing everything always, one just has to wake up from the sleep we have been seduced into. Cause the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, scared of letting go.
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cman
These are the things Jesus taught. It, the spirit, is what he was talking about...clearly. Instead of the epistles to be read all the time, it is better to read the gospels and proverbs, psalms....to see what they were seeing....
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cman
Paul wrote to those who have been awakened from sleep, born again, yes, but what does that mean=awake, the spirit uncoiled from inside. He constantly talked about the spirit inside, as well as in the other men who wrote letters, like John and Peter and James.
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Charity
You make a good point. There are words of wisdom in the bible amongst the many harmful concepts it proclaims. Some who have deconverted continue to read the bible from a fictional viewpoint and look for what lessons might be hidden in the myths. I'm not at that place though.
It's a beautiful quote you shared. Biblically, it would be refuted by Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:" (See also Rom 3:10-18 and Gal 5:19-21)
It's a terrible thing to teach children how wicked they are because of having a sin nature. There seems to be little or nothing written in the bible about the goodness of people apart from God being in their lives. We know this is not true! Are humans perfect - no. But it is not because of an "original sin" that was passed on to us because of a mythical Adam and Eve story in Genesis.
I think Dyer's quote about the soul directing you in the right direction is wise when you believe in an inherit worth in all people and a desire to see good manifested in your life.
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Charity
Thanks cman for the post. I don't believe that God is always showing everything always. That there are so many denominations teaching totally different things on many different topics is a sign of mass confusion when it comes to understanding God. As for the flesh (meaning the sin nature in everyone) being weak and fearful, I guess it's true if one believes it exists.
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cman
yes we are stewards, as Jesus taught, as Paul taught
stewards of the pearl of great price
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Charity
For a while, I had been reading and hearing from different sources the shocking belief that Paul's epistles were heretical because they contradicted what Jesus taught in the gospel. I thought this was because these people did not understand the doctrine of the mystery which was hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul and since Jesus was not God, he could not have taught it before his death. Therefore Paul, by revelation from Jesus Christ, was able to teach who we are and what we have in Christ because the resurrection and ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God had since occurred.
"Truth" is all so subjective.
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cman
you hang on to these church teachings as if they are the truth, are they? or are they the anchor that keeps you asleep, sleeping comfortably in your mind-set
here is another
"If you believe it will work out,
you'll see opportunities.
If you believe it won't,
you will see obstacles."
~Wayne Dyer…
and not to put you down in any way, it's just the way it is
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Charity
I don't see you putting me down in your posts. I think the anchor that helps me sleep now is being thankful for what I have, especially my family.
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Charity
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Charity
1) I did not give an interpretation of Gen 2 & 3. I referred to them exactly how they were written. Would you, as a loving father, simply let your perfect child who has no knowledge of evil nor of the existence of a cunning and evil arch-enemy of yours deal with such a creature on her own, knowing that she would be deceived by his craftiness? Would you not correct her before she went to your other child and offered him the forbidden fruit you had placed in their home? Would the matter of testing their obedience to you supersede the
you knew would happen after they ate the fruit?
The story makes no sense as I think you know, but millions of people still believe it is how sin entered the world. So now, what is the real reason for the "wickedness" in mankind and the authority and power of the devil and his spirit followers and the need for a messiah as described in the rest of the bible?
2) Concerning the rest of your sentence:
I was not stuck on vpw's law of believing. I was stuck on trusting God. There is a difference - the former is a false doctrine and the latter is scriptural knowing that the word "faith," used over 200 times in the bible, means trust.
The devil spirits I connected with my grandson were not because of some idiot who was blabbing about them in a medical situation. Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting. I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child. That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures.
Mark 9:17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb (mute, speechless) spirit; 18And wheresoever he takes him, he tears (seizes) him: and he foams, and gnashes with his teeth, and pines (withers, stiffens) away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
Luke 9:38And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. 39And, lo, a spirit takes him, and he suddenly cries out; and it tears (convulses) him that he foams again, and bruising him hardly departs from him.
Edited by CharityCorrect chapter number for Mark
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chockfull
I view Gen 2 and 3 as allegorical illustrating freedom of choice between good and evil that is available to every living soul.
You most certainly are interpreting it in a fundamentalist sense from my perspective.
Faith means different things in the Bible I think most count 5 usages.
The idea of devil spirits is upsetting. Having spiritual causes of illnesses is upsetting. Mental illnesses which can look like devil spirits are upsetting. Being sick is upsetting. Cancer and chemo is upsetting. VP said cancer was a devil spirit. Then he died of it.
What .... doctrine are you talking about? Those records in the gospels are Jesus healing a couple kids by removing a spiritual cause of the illness?
So healing the kids was ....? Dang that is real cynical. Not a view I want to share at all.
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