It’s almost like the late 2nd century writer of 2 Peter 2:12-15 was prophesying the coming of that charlatan victor paul wierwille. What an uncanny description!
Heck no. The context of those verses are talking about false prophets and teachers who wallow in evil.
That's true. Yet, Peter does write in chapter 2 of God's judgment, both past and future, against the followers of these prophets and teachers, as well as the "ungodly" and "unjust" (verses 2, 4-9, 20-22). I'm certain atheists would fit in there somewhere.
I don't believe in a judgment period since the existence of an afterlife cannot be proven to exist, so the verses in 2 Peter 2 don't worry me. But, it is still the fear of God's horrendous wrath expected to come on the "unsaved" that is harmful, especially in the light of the following:
Is the doctrine "once saved/always saved" accurate? TWI taught it was, but many (including at least a couple of ex-way leaders) now teach that one must remain faithful in order to be part of the gathering together of Christ for his church. I would think that God would make sure his word was absolutely clear about this issue, but unfortunately, it is not.
Okay, but if the bible is not clear on the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" or the doctrine that one must remain faithful to Christ to have eternal life, how do you know what to believe?
It’s almost like the late 2nd century writer of 2 Peter 2:12-15 was prophesying the coming of that charlatan victor paul wierwille. What an uncanny description!
vpw has been proven to be one of them, but there have been so many before him, there are many that are still preaching and prophesying today, and there will always continue to be more.
How can we believe that Jesus is the head of the church when millions of his members have been abused in every manner possible?
That's why when Christians say Jesus is cleaning house whenever a charlatan is exposed thereby forcing the creep to resign (e.g., Mike Bickle, LCM), I think of the phrase "emptying an ocean with a teaspoon." (Btw, it's not uncommon for the creep to resurface in some other church somewhere else.) Why do believers have such low expectations of their gods and saviors other than to say it will all come out in the afterlife?
I still think that the afterlife is the greatest cover story for a fictional and inept god that there is, but it sure gets people hooked on their religion.
OK, it's sounds like I'm being flippant but I'm not.
The point is, the human mind craves easy solutions for complex problems. That explains why we fell so hard for VPW's shtick.
"I didn't say it, you did."...VPW
What I think now is that this problem is compounded by the concept of "faith." We put our trust in either an ancient text that can be interpreted hundreds of ways or in a person who claims to teach the truth based on his/her own interpretation.
Evidence for whether beliefs are true or not means nothing. Critical thinking about spiritual matters is considered inferior, unhelpful and often demonic. Answered prayers are always a hit and miss, yet this reality is so often ignored or rationalized. Feeling good can come simply from believing in a belief.
On top of this, you have to wonder where education in our schools is going these days. How much does social media kill our desire to know what's truth?
Okay, but if the bible is not clear on the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" or the doctrine that one must remain faithful to Christ to have eternal life, how do you know what to believe?
What if you choose wrong? If one is counting on "once saved/always saved" but is not faithful in their walk with Christ, finding out this doctrine was wrong in the afterlife will be a pretty big problem.
If one is counting on the requirement that you must remain faithful in your walk to get into heaven, what happens if you weren't faithful the week before you died because you were having some doubts? Will that person be saved?
The point is, the human mind craves easy solutions for complex problems. That explains why we fell so hard for VPW's shtick.
I fell into Victor's trap at age 19. That was 50 years and about 5 weeks ago.
Young people don't have as much of a data base between their ears from which to draw on to combat cult seduction, even if they've been taught critical analysis/thinking skills. It's no wonder young adults have often been those most vulnerable.
We think (at that age) we're both invulnerable, and all-knowledgeable. Sometimes it takes a lifetime of lessons in the School of Hard Knocks to begin questioning those easy solutions for complex problems.
I fell into Victor's trap at age 19. That was 50 years and about 5 weeks ago.
Young people don't have as much of a data base between their ears from which to draw on to combat cult seduction, even if they've been taught critical analysis/thinking skills. It's no wonder young adults have often been those most vulnerable.
We think (at that age) we're both invulnerable, and all-knowledgeable. Sometimes it takes a lifetime of lessons in the School of Hard Knocks to begin questioning those easy solutions for complex problems.
I indeed knew very little about critical analysis/thinking skills at the age of 18 when I became involved with twi. However, I did not see myself as invulnerable or all-knowledgeable. Just the opposite - I hated myself and wanted desperately to know God's love. The love bombing shown to me at the beginning was all it took.
Christ is the Judge. I did another search through AI asking if Christ's judgment involves mercy, and there certainly appears to be some good tidings awaiting for us:
I'm only speaking for myself here, but I think the real problems with understanding stem from 2 things. The smaller problem is expecting the Bible to be a textbook written for a modern audience. We, here and now, would prefer that, but it would have been impenetrable for centuries. (Different styles benefit different people and work better for different times and different mindsets.)
The larger problem really is having preconceived notions about what it is SUPPOSED to say, and cherry-picking to try to support that rather than read the whole thing to find out what it actually says. That's actual work, and requires one to double-check one's denomination. (Then again, I was already starting to do that while in twi before the splits happened, and I wasn't in terribly long.) If you're taught, say, there's Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and Limbo, then if you even open your Bible, you're likely to just look for something that might look like it supports precisely that position, rather than making the effort to get the whole picture from the Bible.
A tertiary problem is awful translations- but a lot of those stem from a translator with the larger problem. I've found that reading an interlinear often corrects those pretty easily and painlessly.
I'm only speaking for myself here, but I think the real problems with understanding stem from 2 things. The smaller problem is expecting the Bible to be a textbook written for a modern audience. We, here and now, would prefer that, but it would have been impenetrable for centuries. (Different styles benefit different people and work better for different times and different mindsets.)
The larger problem really is having preconceived notions about what it is SUPPOSED to say, and cherry-picking to try to support that rather than read the whole thing to find out what it actually says. That's actual work, and requires one to double-check one's denomination. (Then again, I was already starting to do that while in twi before the splits happened, and I wasn't in terribly long.) If you're taught, say, there's Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and Limbo, then if you even open your Bible, you're likely to just look for something that might look like it supports precisely that position, rather than making the effort to get the whole picture from the Bible.
A tertiary problem is awful translations- but a lot of those stem from a translator with the larger problem. I've found that reading an interlinear often corrects those pretty easily and painlessly.
On 12/1/2024 at 12:07 PM, Charity said:
Okay, but if the bible is not clear on the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" or the doctrine that one must remain faithful to Christ to have eternal life, how do you know what to believe?
If you feel like answering, which of the two choices above do you accept as accurate?
I'm only speaking for myself here, but I think the real problems with understanding stem from 2 things. The smaller problem is expecting the Bible to be a textbook written for a modern audience. We, here and now, would prefer that, but it would have been impenetrable for centuries. (Different styles benefit different people and work better for different times and different mindsets.)
The larger problem really is having preconceived notions about what it is SUPPOSED to say, and cherry-picking to try to support that rather than read the whole thing to find out what it actually says. That's actual work, and requires one to double-check one's denomination. (Then again, I was already starting to do that while in twi before the splits happened, and I wasn't in terribly long.) If you're taught, say, there's Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and Limbo, then if you even open your Bible, you're likely to just look for something that might look like it supports precisely that position, rather than making the effort to get the whole picture from the Bible.
A tertiary problem is awful translations- but a lot of those stem from a translator with the larger problem. I've found that reading an interlinear often corrects those pretty easily and painlessly.
Not necessarily an exhaustive list, but those are very real factors. Thanks WW.
If you feel like answering, which of the two choices above do you accept as accurate?
I'm not speaking for WW, only myself. Those two options are not nearly the only choices available.
Aren't YOU, dear Charity, responsible for using your critical thinking and analysis skills to make judgments as to what you should believe? As WW noted, we don't have a textbook we can open that provides simple, clear ideas on how to cope with or balance life's complex problems, whether philosophical problems or practical, everyday living problems.
Isn't that kinda what traps a lot of people in dogmatic life situations these days?
I'm not speaking for WW, only myself. Those two options are not nearly the only choices available.
Aren't YOU, dear Charity, responsible for using your critical thinking and analysis skills to make judgments as to what you should believe? As WW noted, we don't have a textbook we can open that provides simple, clear ideas on how to cope with or balance life's complex problems, whether philosophical problems or practical, everyday living problems.
Isn't that kinda what traps a lot of people in dogmatic life situations these days?
My only response to YOU, Rocky , is that whatever other choices there might be, they should come from the bible as that was the context in which I was speaking.
Now would be a good time to ask this question which should not be a problem in this thread.
Why did an all-knowing, all-wise and all-powerful divine being, when wanting to make known his one and only perfect will to all humans for the thousands of years he knew would eventually exist and across thousands of languages and dialects (which he's responsible for because of the Tower of Babel incident) and cultures that would spread throughout the whole world, choose to do so in a written way that has proven to be so confusing and contentious and cherry picked?
Edited by Charity I messed up the first time (smile)
Why did an all-knowing, all-wise and all-powerful divine being, when wanting to make known his one and only perfect will to all humans for the thousands of years he knew would eventually exist and across thousands of languages and dialects (which he's responsible for because of the Tower of Babel incident) and cultures that would spread throughout the whole world, choose to do so in a written way that has proven to be so confusing and contentious and cherry picked?
My only response to YOU, Rocky , is that whatever other choices there might be, they should come from the bible as that was the context in which I was speaking.
I don't see your question as being a problem, but demanding (or even mildly suggesting) I should only answer with something from the bible is not something I'm willing to do.
However, my go to (favorite) scripture now and for a long time up to now is Proverbs 2:1-5.
My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding—
3 indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
The desire to learn is partly a preference for novelty: we tend to seek out new information and experiences, and that adds to what we know. We also like to reduce uncertainty. Information can bring food, safety, relationships, and other physical rewards. But scientists now believe these drives combine into a more complicated urge that can be critical to learning, even when—perhaps especially when—there’s no immediate payoff. We are just curious.
We’re often curious in a particular way: we want to learn more about things we already know a little bit about. “You can think of curiosity as the process that guides the acquisition of knowledge,” says neuroscientist Celeste Kidd of the University of California, Berkeley. We internally track how well we are learning, or our learning progress, and learning comes more easily and is more enjoyable when curiosity is high. Following our instincts appears to be a particularly rewarding way to explore the world. “If you feel positive after learning something, then you now understand the joy of learning, which motivates you to learn next time,” says educational psychologist Kou Murayama of the University of Tübingen in Germany.
Why did an all-knowing, all-wise and all-powerful divine being, when wanting to make known his one and only perfect will to all humans for the thousands of years he knew would eventually exist and across thousands of languages and dialects (which he's responsible for because of the Tower of Babel incident) and cultures that would spread throughout the whole world, choose to do so in a written way that has proven to be so confusing and contentious and cherry picked?
You present that question as if it is factually true. Why do you think it's true? I'm not so sure.
I'm more inclined these days to think that humankind made God in its own image rather than the other way around. Bottom-line: I don't take your question as a true premise.
You present that question as if it is factually true. Why do you think it's true? I'm not so sure.
I'm more inclined these days to think that humankind made God in its own image rather than the other way around. Bottom-line: I don't take your question as a true premise.
Fine Rocky because I don't believe in the premise either at this time. I'm opened to being proven wrong though if there was some empirical evidence for the existence of God. I'd have to say that it was a rhetorical question in that I wanted to make a biblical point in light of the discussion around the difficulty with translating languages.
Also, it's obvious that the answer to the question can only come from God himself and what is the probability of that happening other than having to wait until the afterlife. I figure by then, it'll be too late to matter.
It may be that the question might be enough for someone to begin asking other questions about the bible and come to a conclusion similar to your inclination stated above.
However, my go to (favorite) scripture now and for a long time up to now is Proverbs 2:1-5.
My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding—
3 indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
Thank you for sharing the passage - I'm going to pass on it for myself.
I'd like to ask for clarification though on how you take this passage to mean because of things you have said in the past about the bible. Do you follow verse 1 literally; i.e., do you accept all of God's words (which is implied) and store up all his commandments (also implied) within? And do you believe you understand the fear of the Lord and that you have found the (not "a") knowledge of God?
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waysider
Yeah, see. That kinda leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We were either following the teachings of a man with devil spirits or he was wrong about what he taught. That means he could have been
Raf
I consider myself humanist as well. Since there is no hierarchy in humanism, no one really gets to define it. This website gathers various definitions that permit us to ascertain some kind of co
waysider
When you consider the irony in this, it's almost comical in a perversely twisted way. Want something from God? Follow a complicated formula. Make sure to cross every T and dot every I. Want
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Nathan_Jr
It’s almost like the late 2nd century writer of 2 Peter 2:12-15 was prophesying the coming of that charlatan victor paul wierwille. What an uncanny description!
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oldiesman
Heck no. The context of those verses are talking about false prophets and teachers who wallow in evil.
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Charity
That's true. Yet, Peter does write in chapter 2 of God's judgment, both past and future, against the followers of these prophets and teachers, as well as the "ungodly" and "unjust" (verses 2, 4-9, 20-22). I'm certain atheists would fit in there somewhere.
I don't believe in a judgment period since the existence of an afterlife cannot be proven to exist, so the verses in 2 Peter 2 don't worry me. But, it is still the fear of God's horrendous wrath expected to come on the "unsaved" that is harmful, especially in the light of the following:
Is the doctrine "once saved/always saved" accurate? TWI taught it was, but many (including at least a couple of ex-way leaders) now teach that one must remain faithful in order to be part of the gathering together of Christ for his church. I would think that God would make sure his word was absolutely clear about this issue, but unfortunately, it is not.
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oldiesman
Agree...
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Charity
Okay, but if the bible is not clear on the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" or the doctrine that one must remain faithful to Christ to have eternal life, how do you know what to believe?
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waysider
Simple. You write The Teacher.
OK, it's sounds like I'm being flippant but I'm not.
The point is, the human mind craves easy solutions for complex problems. That explains why we fell so hard for VPW's shtick.
"I didn't say it, you did."...VPW
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Charity
vpw has been proven to be one of them, but there have been so many before him, there are many that are still preaching and prophesying today, and there will always continue to be more.
How can we believe that Jesus is the head of the church when millions of his members have been abused in every manner possible?
That's why when Christians say Jesus is cleaning house whenever a charlatan is exposed thereby forcing the creep to resign (e.g., Mike Bickle, LCM), I think of the phrase "emptying an ocean with a teaspoon." (Btw, it's not uncommon for the creep to resurface in some other church somewhere else.) Why do believers have such low expectations of their gods and saviors other than to say it will all come out in the afterlife?
I still think that the afterlife is the greatest cover story for a fictional and inept god that there is, but it sure gets people hooked on their religion.
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Charity
What I think now is that this problem is compounded by the concept of "faith." We put our trust in either an ancient text that can be interpreted hundreds of ways or in a person who claims to teach the truth based on his/her own interpretation.
Evidence for whether beliefs are true or not means nothing. Critical thinking about spiritual matters is considered inferior, unhelpful and often demonic. Answered prayers are always a hit and miss, yet this reality is so often ignored or rationalized. Feeling good can come simply from believing in a belief.
On top of this, you have to wonder where education in our schools is going these days. How much does social media kill our desire to know what's truth?
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oldiesman
Free will choice.
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Charity
What if you choose wrong? If one is counting on "once saved/always saved" but is not faithful in their walk with Christ, finding out this doctrine was wrong in the afterlife will be a pretty big problem.
If one is counting on the requirement that you must remain faithful in your walk to get into heaven, what happens if you weren't faithful the week before you died because you were having some doubts? Will that person be saved?
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Rocky
I fell into Victor's trap at age 19. That was 50 years and about 5 weeks ago.
Young people don't have as much of a data base between their ears from which to draw on to combat cult seduction, even if they've been taught critical analysis/thinking skills. It's no wonder young adults have often been those most vulnerable.
We think (at that age) we're both invulnerable, and all-knowledgeable. Sometimes it takes a lifetime of lessons in the School of Hard Knocks to begin questioning those easy solutions for complex problems.
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Charity
I indeed knew very little about critical analysis/thinking skills at the age of 18 when I became involved with twi. However, I did not see myself as invulnerable or all-knowledgeable. Just the opposite - I hated myself and wanted desperately to know God's love. The love bombing shown to me at the beginning was all it took.
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oldiesman
Christ is the Judge. I did another search through AI asking if Christ's judgment involves mercy, and there certainly appears to be some good tidings awaiting for us:
does the judgment seat of christ involve mercy - Google Search
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Rocky
That's not mutually exclusive with/from young people believing they know-it-all and/or take risks they shouldn't.
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WordWolf
Disagree.
I'm only speaking for myself here, but I think the real problems with understanding stem from 2 things. The smaller problem is expecting the Bible to be a textbook written for a modern audience. We, here and now, would prefer that, but it would have been impenetrable for centuries. (Different styles benefit different people and work better for different times and different mindsets.)
The larger problem really is having preconceived notions about what it is SUPPOSED to say, and cherry-picking to try to support that rather than read the whole thing to find out what it actually says. That's actual work, and requires one to double-check one's denomination. (Then again, I was already starting to do that while in twi before the splits happened, and I wasn't in terribly long.) If you're taught, say, there's Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and Limbo, then if you even open your Bible, you're likely to just look for something that might look like it supports precisely that position, rather than making the effort to get the whole picture from the Bible.
A tertiary problem is awful translations- but a lot of those stem from a translator with the larger problem. I've found that reading an interlinear often corrects those pretty easily and painlessly.
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Charity
If you feel like answering, which of the two choices above do you accept as accurate?
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Rocky
Not necessarily an exhaustive list, but those are very real factors. Thanks WW.
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Rocky
I'm not speaking for WW, only myself. Those two options are not nearly the only choices available.
Aren't YOU, dear Charity, responsible for using your critical thinking and analysis skills to make judgments as to what you should believe? As WW noted, we don't have a textbook we can open that provides simple, clear ideas on how to cope with or balance life's complex problems, whether philosophical problems or practical, everyday living problems.
Isn't that kinda what traps a lot of people in dogmatic life situations these days?
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Charity
My only response to YOU, Rocky
, is that whatever other choices there might be, they should come from the bible as that was the context in which I was speaking.
Now would be a good time to ask this question which should not be a problem in this thread.
Why did an all-knowing, all-wise and all-powerful divine being, when wanting to make known his one and only perfect will to all humans for the thousands of years he knew would eventually exist and across thousands of languages and dialects (which he's responsible for because of the Tower of Babel incident) and cultures that would spread throughout the whole world, choose to do so in a written way that has proven to be so confusing and contentious and cherry picked?
Edited by CharityI messed up the first time (smile)
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waysider
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Rocky
I don't see your question as being a problem, but demanding (or even mildly suggesting) I should only answer with something from the bible is not something I'm willing to do.
However, my go to (favorite) scripture now and for a long time up to now is Proverbs 2:1-5.
My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding—
3 indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
So, take it or leave it.
As an addendum, I found this article on Scientific American's website today on the topic of curiosity. Take it, also, or leave it. What you accept is not in my control.
One is either curious and wanting learn, or not.
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Rocky
You present that question as if it is factually true. Why do you think it's true? I'm not so sure.
I'm more inclined these days to think that humankind made God in its own image rather than the other way around. Bottom-line: I don't take your question as a true premise.
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Charity
Fine Rocky because I don't believe in the premise either at this time. I'm opened to being proven wrong though if there was some empirical evidence for the existence of God. I'd have to say that it was a rhetorical question in that I wanted to make a biblical point in light of the discussion around the difficulty with translating languages.
Also, it's obvious that the answer to the question can only come from God himself and what is the probability of that happening other than having to wait until the afterlife. I figure by then, it'll be too late to matter.
It may be that the question might be enough for someone to begin asking other questions about the bible and come to a conclusion similar to your inclination stated above.
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Charity
Thank you for sharing the passage - I'm going to pass on it for myself.
I'd like to ask for clarification though on how you take this passage to mean because of things you have said in the past about the bible. Do you follow verse 1 literally; i.e., do you accept all of God's words (which is implied) and store up all his commandments (also implied) within? And do you believe you understand the fear of the Lord and that you have found the (not "a") knowledge of God?
I'm asking in a sincere way.
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