Even IF it's "belief that since God can do no wrong, it is always wrong of the person if they leave the faith..." that's just how a person's very human rationalization for their criticism is simply a manifestation of the human tendency to criticize something they disagree with.
I guess I was coming from the perspective that as far as Christians are concerned, their beliefs are rooted in the supernatural or spiritual realm and therefore have top authority over all human thoughts, desires, etc. Non-believers are not just disagreeing with them but with their God. So when they criticize those who leave the faith for whatever reasons, they see their criticism as speaking on God's behalf.
But I see your point - the reality is that they are humans defending what they as humans have chosen to believe. I hope this makes sense.
But I see your point - the reality is that they are humans defending what they as humans have chosen to believe. I hope this makes sense.
Of course it makes sense.
EVERY human is highly qualified to rationalize and therefore justify what they believe about anything, including what they consider God. Same goes for EVERY religion. There is no religion that can rightly claim their God (or god or gods) is/are the only true God and that they can prove it.
It's all about taking it on faith. IOW, every religion has an origin story and a narrative about what they believe is THE truth.
EVERY human is highly qualified to rationalize and therefore justify what they believe about anything, including what they consider God. Same goes for EVERY religion. There is no religion that can rightly claim their God (or god or gods) is/are the only true God and that they can prove it.
It's all about taking it on faith. IOW, every religion has an origin story and a narrative about what they believe is THE truth.
The sentence "I hope this makes sense." was referring to my first paragraph. I was in a hurry to finish the post and stuck it at the end. It was a "haste makes waste" sort of thing.
"Taking it on faith" is considered a strong virtue for those who believe in a religion. Even when their god(s) fail them, most will hold on to it still.
To be a little more clear, I had a friend once who talked about how she survived a car accident in which two other people died (people she did not know) and she capped the story by saying, "God is good."
God is good.
Unless you're the other family. F'em.
Now, that's not to say ANYTHING about my (now former) friend. Our reasons for no longer being friends have nothing to do with that incident. My criticism of "God is good" in that context is completely independent of my friend's character, just as criticism of "God spared candidate X and said f'em to the family of the fallen firefighter" has nothing to do with candidate X. Candidate X could have been comedian X or movie star X or pop singer X and the criticism of "God is good" in that context is the same.
The fact is, praising God for sparing one person when other people in the same incident were not spared strikes me as insensitive at best, horrifyingly arrogant at worst. And if we're really talking about the goodness of God, then that's something that needs to be answered. I mean, if you're trying to convince me there is a God and he's really good.
If you're not trying to convince me, that's another story.
[Claimer/disclaimer for anyone reading along who doesn't already know: modcat5 and Raf are the same person].
To be a little more clear, I had a friend once who talked about how she survived a car accident in which two other people died (people she did not know) and she capped the story by saying, "God is good."
God is good.
Unless you're the other family. F'em.
Now, that's not to say ANYTHING about my (now former) friend. Our reasons for no longer being friends have nothing to do with that incident. My criticism of "God is good" in that context is completely independent of my friend's character, just as criticism of "God spared candidate X and said f'em to the family of the fallen firefighter" has nothing to do with candidate X. Candidate X could have been comedian X or movie star X or pop singer X and the criticism of "God is good" in that context is the same.
The fact is, praising God for sparing one person when other people in the same incident were not spared strikes me as insensitive at best, horrifyingly arrogant at worst. And if we're really talking about the goodness of God, then that's something that needs to be answered. I mean, if you're trying to convince me there is a God and he's really good.
If you're not trying to convince me, that's another story.
[Claimer/disclaimer for anyone reading along who doesn't already know: modcat5 and Raf are the same person].
I get what you're saying. What can I say but "we'll understand it all by and by".... we certainly don't now right? I look at the horrible torture and painful death of Jesus in the same light how can we possibly understand it all.
I get what you're saying. What can I say but "we'll understand it all by and by".... we certainly don't now right? I look at the horrible torture and painful death of Jesus in the same light how can we possibly understand it all.
I wrote something similar to the following on the "God's accountants, revolving doors, and Occam's razor on the scarcity of miracles" thread in this subforum. When taking God out of the equation, one no longer has to try to justify the unjustifiable things God does.
~~~~~
I reactivated this thread because of a recent event that took place in Butler, Pennsylvania. Almost Immediately after the shooting there, it was being declared as a miracle of God that "you know who" was only slightly injured instead of being killed.
The obvious question then is where was the miracle of God for the man who was killed and the two others who were shot and were in critical condition? The logical conclusion to this would be that God clearly picked and chose who to save and who not to save - who to protect from being shot and who not to protect.
Different Christians will have different reasons for why God is justified in doing this. One belief might be that God had/has a purpose for the lives of each shooting victim and that His plans will continue to ripple out to include their loved ones and maybe even further.
If you take God out of the picture, what is left are just the sad but real facts.
~~~~~
The above is what the name of this thread is about.
The following is something I wrote to a woman who I was very close to in a Christian woman's group earlier this year. She contacted me yesterday about how I was doing and I shared this with her. What's of interest is her reply.
Me: The brokenness I experienced was six months ago and right afterwards, I spent time in the Word to try once again to understand this God that was nowhere to be found. Over the next few months, my questions led to more questions until I am where I am today.
It’s not just how my grandson is suffering because of epilepsy; it’s the terrible suffering that is occurring in the whole world - that is the problem. I have stopped accepting the excuses Christians give to make God look loving and innocent and just in what is happening right before their eyes.
But there’s more. The Bible says that when the grace period ends, life will become similar to the OT but much, much worse where the terrifying vengeful wrath of God and His eternal punishment against sinners will once again be considered “justified.” The fallacy of “God has given us free will” or “You send yourself to hell” cannot dismiss the doctrine that this almighty God knew from the beginning how this world would all play out but could think of no better way to have a relationship with his creation.
I am no longer convinced God exists and letting go of trying to figure him out has made my life much more peaceful.
Her reply: Letting go of trying to figure Him out with your head is a good step. You can still ask Him to reveal Himself to you and not lean on your own understanding of things. He will do it. I am still continuing to pray xx
At first I gave her a thumbs up in reply to her suggestion that I can still ask God to reveal Himself but it bothered me afterwards that I did so. I wanted to make my thoughts about the idea of God clearer and more decisive so I sent her the following in a number of messages:
~~~~~
Please don’t mistake my “letting go of trying to figure God out” as something that was wrong or bad to do. I’m thankful I did it. The idea of “God says it, I believe it, that settles it and I will obey” is Biblical conditioning that demonizes critical thinking. Yet this is what is taught as you will see below. Repetition of such ideas as this one and others like it, such as “leaning not on your own understanding,” is an indoctrination process where they become a believer’s absolute world view, one’s core beliefs, one’s neural programing in the mind. Job is an example of this.
Whether you believe the book of Job is a historical event that really happened or an allegory, God allowed Satan to do terrible things to Job and his family on some kind of a bet and in the end, God reproves Job for questioning His ways to the point that finally Job submits in 42:6, “Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Only after that does God reward him, not by raising his previous children from the dead (so he and his wife could stop mourning them), but giving him new ones, and we’re supposed to praise God for this?
This is simply a horrendous story that no one would critically agree is loving or just if an earthly father did such things to his children. But because of Biblical indoctrination, you have “God Questions” saying the following (the italic comments are mine):
“The Book of Job reminds us that there is a "cosmic conflict" going on behind the scenes that we usually know nothing about. (What evidence is there that this is true?) Often we wonder why God allows something, and we question or doubt God’s goodness, without seeing the full picture. The Book of Job teaches us to trust God under all circumstances. We must trust God, not only WHEN we do not understand, but BECAUSE we do not understand. The psalmist tells us, “As for God, His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30). If God’s ways are “perfect,” then we can trust that whatever He does—and whatever He allows—is also perfect. This may not seem possible to us, but our minds are not God’s mind. It is true that we can’t expect to understand His mind perfectly, as He reminds us, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). (This is another Biblical doctrine that demonizes our ability to think logically and rationally.) Nevertheless, OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO GOD IS TO OBEY HIM, TO TRUST HIM, AND TO SUBMIT TO HIS WILL, WHETHER WE UNDERSTAND IT OR NOT.” (Capitalization of this sentence is mine.)
I abhor this kind of thinking now so I will not ask God to reveal himself because He does not exist outside of the words of men written in the Bible and even if He did, I would not worship him and his ways.
~~~~~
It shows how irrational my beleefs were when I used to accept such an evil God as being all righteous and good and therefore worthy of complete obedience to him.
One last thing for someone who is having doubts about their faith and might happen to read this post, this is one of the best video I've seen while deconstructing (it's a play on the popular Christian song that says "trust and obey, for there's no better way, to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey):
I like what he says about learned helplessness. "Learned helplessness is great to encapsulate what’s going on here. After so many attempts to question or challenge our faith are met with dismissal, shame, guilt, people give up. You learn to give up like a smaller dog rolling over and showing his belly to a bigger (alpha) dog, God is the alpha, the Bible is the alpha, your pastor is the alpha, you are not.
In the vacuum of that powerlessness, “obedience becomes our comfort, submission becomes cathartic, trust becomes our crutch that helps us get through the day.
In the vacuum of that powerlessness, “obedience becomes our comfort, submission becomes cathartic, trust becomes our crutch that helps us get through the day.
Wow! Yeah, I suppose that's true. I don't prioritize obedience to any human's version of what God wants me to do or believe. I hope, Charity that you get comfort from what you're figuring out.
Wow! Yeah, I suppose that's true. I don't prioritize obedience to any human's version of what God wants me to do or believe. I hope, Charity that you get comfort from what you're figuring out.
Thanks Rocky. Those ideas about learned helplessness and powerlessness come from the video I mentioned in that post.
My Christian woman friend sent me a reply after my last messages to her saying that she is still continuing to pray for me and my grandson. I know this implies that I'm lost and we both need God's help, but I'm letting that particular conversation with her go at this point.
My Christian woman friend sent me a reply after my last messages to her saying that she is still continuing to pray for me and my grandson. I know this implies that I'm lost and we both need God's help, but I'm letting that particular conversation with her go at this point
Well, I see the implication of that response to you completely differently. Instead of what it implies about YOU, I'm recognizing what it implies about her. Namely, that SHE VIEWS you with love and that's what she does to express that love for you.
I still believe in prayer. But I don't view it as exclusive to Christians. I'm thankful that regardless of her beliefs, she expresses love for you and your grandson. What happens after that isn't up to either you or her.
Well, I see the implication of that response to you completely differently. Instead of what it implies about YOU, I'm recognizing what it implies about her. Namely, that SHE VIEWS you with love and that's what she does to express that love for you.
I still believe in prayer. But I don't view it as exclusive to Christians. I'm thankful that regardless of her beliefs, she expresses love for you and your grandson. What happens after that isn't up to either you or her.
On 9/29/2024 at 6:20 PM, Rocky said:
Oops - I quoted you twice.
This woman is a very peaceful, accepting and loving person with a strong commitment to her Christian beliefs. (Even her seven cats are peaceful and loving with each other, accepting the new ones as they came along which always amazed me crediting it to her personal "aura.")
I’m sure you are right that her prayers are a loving response as a Christian. I’ve been there and done that as a Christian many times with my adult children who did not believe in a god. But here’s the thing. I don't think it's so much about love as it is respect. If someone knows I do not like lasagna and one day they lovingly invite me over for dinner, what am I to think if they make me lasagna because they believe it's delicious and therefore want me to come to that wonderful conclusion as well?
What I am questioning is that instead of accepting my clear explanation and decision about the non-existence of a loving biblical God as being a valid or correct one for me, she still presented Him as someone who can deliver me and my grandson because it is what she believes – IOW, it’s about her and her beliefs, not about me and my beliefs. Could she have shown her love in a way that respected who I now am like suggesting we get together to have a fun night of friendship together?
I do love her and have told her that I am thankful to have known her, and I wished her well. I'm thinking now I should share the above with her as well to hear her point of view concerning it.
Could Should she have shown her love in a way that respected who I now am like suggesting we get together to have a fun night of friendship together?
How is it YOUR place to determine what she should have done? It may have been nicer from your perspective for her to have done differently, but expecting someone else to do as you prefer? It seems like an emotional boundary problem. That's the BIG problem with twi. They far too often judged what other SHOULD have done, or should do. And when the person doesn't, do they hold a grudge? Sometimes.
Again, the woman didn't invade your emotional boundaries by expressing her love for you the way she did. Did she?
How is it YOUR place to determine what she should have done? It may have been nicer from your perspective for her to have done differently, but expecting someone else to do as you prefer? It seems like an emotional boundary problem. That's the BIG problem with twi. They far too often judged what other SHOULD have done, or should do. And when the person doesn't, do they hold a grudge? Sometimes.
Again, the woman didn't invade your emotional boundaries by expressing her love for you the way she did. Did she?
I hope you can let it go very quickly.
Why did you change my "could" to "should" – big difference. Could is a possible option; should is saying what one ought to do and can be judgmental as you mentioned.
My posts have been about why tell someone twice you will still pray to God for them when they’ve just told you twice that they don’t think He exists and would detest him if He actually did. What prevents you from simply saying I accept your decision and love you still? I think it is a logical question to ask.
Thank you for your replies Rocky – they have been helpful. Instead of letting it go very quickly though, I want to first reach out to her to hear her thoughts on this as I sincerely want to know and not just assume what her reasons are.
Why did you change my "could" to "should" – big difference. Could is a possible option; should is saying what one ought to do and can be judgmental as you mentioned.
Weren't you suggesting she SHOULD have done it differently? Of course, curiosity to get her reasoning is a very good thing.
I think there are two ways people tend to say "I'll pray for you." One is condescending and pretentious, and the other is sincere. To a believing Christian, "I'll pray for you" is one of the kindest things you can say. She could have said "My heart breaks for the path you are on and I hope you see your way back into His love and life." She means that. Deconversion breaks hearts. I can totally understand where she is coming from. Heathen to heathen, let it go. She did not mean it the way some others do.
We all know the others. The people who heard from God this morning and He told them to turn left at the light because the perfect parking spot was waiting. When they say they'll pray for me, I say "I'll talk to my cat for you. Expect the same results."
And if you've seen that meme before, I made it up. I get the credit for it.
I did write asking about her wanting to pray for us and her answer was she was asking Papa for healing, she knows He hears her and she continues to ask and wait.
This has been a learning experience. As I look back on things, my hope was that she would see living life outside her Christian worldview was simply a choice and not something that needed prayers. But that’s just the thing. Her Christian worldview is that I need “healing” because there is something wrong (meaning not according to scripture) with me mentally and/or spiritually. I would have thought the same way not that long ago. Being on the receiving end of such a belief now, I can see there is an inherent negative implication to it.
My grandson does need healing as do millions of other people in this world who receive it or not depending on a body’s ability to heal itself and/or on the science of medicine. Waiting on an “all powerful and loving” god who can heal but has a hidden agenda as to who and why he will heal is not an option for me anymore.
I love your meme Raf - there are two currently living with me. Cats can at times be loving and comforting listeners as they lie and purr on your lap. Then again, these same cats can also be looking down on you from atop the bookshelf considering whether they are in a pouncing mood or not.
I think there are two ways people tend to say "I'll pray for you." One is condescending and pretentious, and the other is sincere. To a believing Christian, "I'll pray for you" is one of the kindest things you can say. She could have said "My heart breaks for the path you are on and I hope you see your way back into His love and life." She means that. Deconversion breaks hearts. I can totally understand where she is coming from. Heathen to heathen, let it go. She did not mean it the way some others do.
We all know the others. The people who heard from God this morning and He told them to turn left at the light because the perfect parking spot was waiting. When they say they'll pray for me, I say "I'll talk to my cat for you. Expect the same results."
I believe my friend is of the first kind you mention above. The awful pain Christians feel when someone they love deconverts is often the unfortunate side effect of holding the belief that they will be thrown into the lake of fire either for eternity or as a second death. Maybe they will one day come to see how horrible a god would be to do such a thing and begin deconverting themselves.
Weren't you suggesting she SHOULD have done it differently? Of course, curiosity to get her reasoning is a very good thing.
No, I was suggesting a different option of showing love for someone who doesn't believe in your god like getting together to have a good time as friends.
I think there are two ways people tend to say "I'll pray for you." One is condescending and pretentious, and the other is sincere. To a believing Christian, "I'll pray for you" is one of the kindest things you can say. She could have said "My heart breaks for the path you are on and I hope you see your way back into His love and life." She means that. Deconversion breaks hearts. I can totally understand where she is coming from. Heathen to heathen, let it go. She did not mean it the way some others do.
We all know the others. The people who heard from God this morning and He told them to turn left at the light because the perfect parking spot was waiting. When they say they'll pray for me, I say "I'll talk to my cat for you. Expect the same results."
And if you've seen that meme before, I made it up. I get the credit for it.
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waysider
Yeah, see. That kinda leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We were either following the teachings of a man with devil spirits or he was wrong about what he taught. That means he could have been
Rocky
https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html Where does it come from? The Russian propaganda model of Firehose of Falsehoods.
waysider
When you consider the irony in this, it's almost comical in a perversely twisted way. Want something from God? Follow a complicated formula. Make sure to cross every T and dot every I. Want
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Charity
I guess I was coming from the perspective that as far as Christians are concerned, their beliefs are rooted in the supernatural or spiritual realm and therefore have top authority over all human thoughts, desires, etc. Non-believers are not just disagreeing with them but with their God. So when they criticize those who leave the faith for whatever reasons, they see their criticism as speaking on God's behalf.
But I see your point - the reality is that they are humans defending what they as humans have chosen to believe. I hope this makes sense.
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Rocky
Of course it makes sense.
EVERY human is highly qualified to rationalize and therefore justify what they believe about anything, including what they consider God. Same goes for EVERY religion. There is no religion that can rightly claim their God (or god or gods) is/are the only true God and that they can prove it.
It's all about taking it on faith. IOW, every religion has an origin story and a narrative about what they believe is THE truth.
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Charity
The sentence "I hope this makes sense." was referring to my first paragraph. I was in a hurry to finish the post and stuck it at the end. It was a "haste makes waste" sort of thing.
"Taking it on faith" is considered a strong virtue for those who believe in a religion. Even when their god(s) fail them, most will hold on to it still.
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modcat5
Got a complaint that one of these posts crossed into politics. It didn't. But it came very close.
Please continue to exercise proper judgment on this. Well done all around (including the "better safe than sorry" report).
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Raf
To be a little more clear, I had a friend once who talked about how she survived a car accident in which two other people died (people she did not know) and she capped the story by saying, "God is good."
God is good.
Unless you're the other family. F'em.
Now, that's not to say ANYTHING about my (now former) friend. Our reasons for no longer being friends have nothing to do with that incident. My criticism of "God is good" in that context is completely independent of my friend's character, just as criticism of "God spared candidate X and said f'em to the family of the fallen firefighter" has nothing to do with candidate X. Candidate X could have been comedian X or movie star X or pop singer X and the criticism of "God is good" in that context is the same.
The fact is, praising God for sparing one person when other people in the same incident were not spared strikes me as insensitive at best, horrifyingly arrogant at worst. And if we're really talking about the goodness of God, then that's something that needs to be answered. I mean, if you're trying to convince me there is a God and he's really good.
If you're not trying to convince me, that's another story.
[Claimer/disclaimer for anyone reading along who doesn't already know: modcat5 and Raf are the same person].
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oldiesman
I get what you're saying. What can I say but "we'll understand it all by and by".... we certainly don't now right? I look at the horrible torture and painful death of Jesus in the same light how can we possibly understand it all.
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Charity
I wrote something similar to the following on the "God's accountants, revolving doors, and Occam's razor on the scarcity of miracles" thread in this subforum. When taking God out of the equation, one no longer has to try to justify the unjustifiable things God does.
~~~~~
I reactivated this thread because of a recent event that took place in Butler, Pennsylvania. Almost Immediately after the shooting there, it was being declared as a miracle of God that "you know who" was only slightly injured instead of being killed.
The obvious question then is where was the miracle of God for the man who was killed and the two others who were shot and were in critical condition? The logical conclusion to this would be that God clearly picked and chose who to save and who not to save - who to protect from being shot and who not to protect.
Different Christians will have different reasons for why God is justified in doing this. One belief might be that God had/has a purpose for the lives of each shooting victim and that His plans will continue to ripple out to include their loved ones and maybe even further.
If you take God out of the picture, what is left are just the sad but real facts.
~~~~~
The above is what the name of this thread is about.
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Charity
The following is something I wrote to a woman who I was very close to in a Christian woman's group earlier this year. She contacted me yesterday about how I was doing and I shared this with her. What's of interest is her reply.
Me: The brokenness I experienced was six months ago and right afterwards, I spent time in the Word to try once again to understand this God that was nowhere to be found. Over the next few months, my questions led to more questions until I am where I am today.
It’s not just how my grandson is suffering because of epilepsy; it’s the terrible suffering that is occurring in the whole world - that is the problem. I have stopped accepting the excuses Christians give to make God look loving and innocent and just in what is happening right before their eyes.
But there’s more. The Bible says that when the grace period ends, life will become similar to the OT but much, much worse where the terrifying vengeful wrath of God and His eternal punishment against sinners will once again be considered “justified.” The fallacy of “God has given us free will” or “You send yourself to hell” cannot dismiss the doctrine that this almighty God knew from the beginning how this world would all play out but could think of no better way to have a relationship with his creation.
I am no longer convinced God exists and letting go of trying to figure him out has made my life much more peaceful.
Her reply: Letting go of trying to figure Him out with your head is a good step. You can still ask Him to reveal Himself to you and not lean on your own understanding of things. He will do it. I am still continuing to pray xx
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Charity
At first I gave her a thumbs up in reply to her suggestion that I can still ask God to reveal Himself but it bothered me afterwards that I did so. I wanted to make my thoughts about the idea of God clearer and more decisive so I sent her the following in a number of messages:
~~~~~
Please don’t mistake my “letting go of trying to figure God out” as something that was wrong or bad to do. I’m thankful I did it. The idea of “God says it, I believe it, that settles it and I will obey” is Biblical conditioning that demonizes critical thinking. Yet this is what is taught as you will see below. Repetition of such ideas as this one and others like it, such as “leaning not on your own understanding,” is an indoctrination process where they become a believer’s absolute world view, one’s core beliefs, one’s neural programing in the mind. Job is an example of this.
Whether you believe the book of Job is a historical event that really happened or an allegory, God allowed Satan to do terrible things to Job and his family on some kind of a bet and in the end, God reproves Job for questioning His ways to the point that finally Job submits in 42:6, “Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Only after that does God reward him, not by raising his previous children from the dead (so he and his wife could stop mourning them), but giving him new ones, and we’re supposed to praise God for this?
This is simply a horrendous story that no one would critically agree is loving or just if an earthly father did such things to his children. But because of Biblical indoctrination, you have “God Questions” saying the following (the italic comments are mine):
“The Book of Job reminds us that there is a "cosmic conflict" going on behind the scenes that we usually know nothing about. (What evidence is there that this is true?) Often we wonder why God allows something, and we question or doubt God’s goodness, without seeing the full picture. The Book of Job teaches us to trust God under all circumstances. We must trust God, not only WHEN we do not understand, but BECAUSE we do not understand. The psalmist tells us, “As for God, His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30). If God’s ways are “perfect,” then we can trust that whatever He does—and whatever He allows—is also perfect. This may not seem possible to us, but our minds are not God’s mind. It is true that we can’t expect to understand His mind perfectly, as He reminds us, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). (This is another Biblical doctrine that demonizes our ability to think logically and rationally.) Nevertheless, OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO GOD IS TO OBEY HIM, TO TRUST HIM, AND TO SUBMIT TO HIS WILL, WHETHER WE UNDERSTAND IT OR NOT.” (Capitalization of this sentence is mine.)
I abhor this kind of thinking now so I will not ask God to reveal himself because He does not exist outside of the words of men written in the Bible and even if He did, I would not worship him and his ways.
~~~~~
It shows how irrational my beleefs were when I used to accept such an evil God as being all righteous and good and therefore worthy of complete obedience to him.
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Charity
One last thing for someone who is having doubts about their faith and might happen to read this post, this is one of the best video I've seen while deconstructing (it's a play on the popular Christian song that says "trust and obey, for there's no better way, to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey):
Trust and Obey, for there's no other way to be brainwashed
I like what he says about learned helplessness. "Learned helplessness is great to encapsulate what’s going on here. After so many attempts to question or challenge our faith are met with dismissal, shame, guilt, people give up. You learn to give up like a smaller dog rolling over and showing his belly to a bigger (alpha) dog, God is the alpha, the Bible is the alpha, your pastor is the alpha, you are not.
In the vacuum of that powerlessness, “obedience becomes our comfort, submission becomes cathartic, trust becomes our crutch that helps us get through the day.
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Rocky
Wow! Yeah, I suppose that's true. I don't prioritize obedience to any human's version of what God wants me to do or believe. I hope, Charity that you get comfort from what you're figuring out.
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Charity
Thanks Rocky. Those ideas about learned helplessness and powerlessness come from the video I mentioned in that post.
Trust and Obey, for there's no other way to be brainwashed
My Christian woman friend sent me a reply after my last messages to her saying that she is still continuing to pray for me and my grandson. I know this implies that I'm lost and we both need God's help, but I'm letting that particular conversation with her go at this point.
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Rocky
Well, I see the implication of that response to you completely differently. Instead of what it implies about YOU, I'm recognizing what it implies about her. Namely, that SHE VIEWS you with love and that's what she does to express that love for you.
I still believe in prayer. But I don't view it as exclusive to Christians. I'm thankful that regardless of her beliefs, she expresses love for you and your grandson. What happens after that isn't up to either you or her.
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Rocky
Even without God, humans still need community... (and belonging).
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Charity
This woman is a very peaceful, accepting and loving person with a strong commitment to her Christian beliefs. (Even her seven cats are peaceful and loving with each other, accepting the new ones as they came along which always amazed me crediting it to her personal
"aura.")
I’m sure you are right that her prayers are a loving response as a Christian. I’ve been there and done that as a Christian many times with my adult children who did not believe in a god. But here’s the thing. I don't think it's so much about love as it is respect. If someone knows I do not like lasagna and one day they lovingly invite me over for dinner, what am I to think if they make me lasagna because they believe it's delicious and therefore want me to come to that wonderful conclusion as well?
What I am questioning is that instead of accepting my clear explanation and decision about the non-existence of a loving biblical God as being a valid or correct one for me, she still presented Him as someone who can deliver me and my grandson because it is what she believes – IOW, it’s about her and her beliefs, not about me and my beliefs. Could she have shown her love in a way that respected who I now am like suggesting we get together to have a fun night of friendship together?
I do love her and have told her that I am thankful to have known her, and I wished her well. I'm thinking now I should share the above with her as well to hear her point of view concerning it.
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Rocky
How is it YOUR place to determine what she should have done? It may have been nicer from your perspective for her to have done differently, but expecting someone else to do as you prefer? It seems like an emotional boundary problem. That's the BIG problem with twi. They far too often judged what other SHOULD have done, or should do. And when the person doesn't, do they hold a grudge? Sometimes.
Again, the woman didn't invade your emotional boundaries by expressing her love for you the way she did. Did she?
I hope you can let it go very quickly.
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Charity
Why did you change my "could" to "should" – big difference. Could is a possible option; should is saying what one ought to do and can be judgmental as you mentioned.
My posts have been about why tell someone twice you will still pray to God for them when they’ve just told you twice that they don’t think He exists and would detest him if He actually did. What prevents you from simply saying I accept your decision and love you still? I think it is a logical question to ask.
Thank you for your replies Rocky – they have been helpful. Instead of letting it go very quickly though, I want to first reach out to her to hear her thoughts on this as I sincerely want to know and not just assume what her reasons are.
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Rocky
Weren't you suggesting she SHOULD have done it differently? Of course, curiosity to get her reasoning is a very good thing.
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Raf
I think there are two ways people tend to say "I'll pray for you." One is condescending and pretentious, and the other is sincere. To a believing Christian, "I'll pray for you" is one of the kindest things you can say. She could have said "My heart breaks for the path you are on and I hope you see your way back into His love and life." She means that. Deconversion breaks hearts. I can totally understand where she is coming from. Heathen to heathen, let it go. She did not mean it the way some others do.
We all know the others. The people who heard from God this morning and He told them to turn left at the light because the perfect parking spot was waiting. When they say they'll pray for me, I say "I'll talk to my cat for you. Expect the same results."
And if you've seen that meme before, I made it up. I get the credit for it.
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Charity
I did write asking about her wanting to pray for us and her answer was she was asking Papa for healing, she knows He hears her and she continues to ask and wait.
This has been a learning experience. As I look back on things, my hope was that she would see living life outside her Christian worldview was simply a choice and not something that needed prayers. But that’s just the thing. Her Christian worldview is that I need “healing” because there is something wrong (meaning not according to scripture) with me mentally and/or spiritually. I would have thought the same way not that long ago. Being on the receiving end of such a belief now, I can see there is an inherent negative implication to it.
My grandson does need healing as do millions of other people in this world who receive it or not depending on a body’s ability to heal itself and/or on the science of medicine. Waiting on an “all powerful and loving” god who can heal but has a hidden agenda as to who and why he will heal is not an option for me anymore.
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Charity
I love your meme Raf - there are two currently living with me. Cats can at times be loving and comforting listeners as they lie and purr on your lap. Then again, these same cats can also be looking down on you from atop the bookshelf considering whether they are in a pouncing mood or not.
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Charity
I believe my friend is of the first kind you mention above. The awful pain Christians feel when someone they love deconverts is often the unfortunate side effect of holding the belief that they will be thrown into the lake of fire either for eternity or as a second death. Maybe they will one day come to see how horrible a god would be to do such a thing and begin deconverting themselves.
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Charity
No, I was suggesting a different option of showing love for someone who doesn't believe in your god like getting together to have a good time as friends.
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Rocky
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