You know there is a new Disney musical drama film being released in December about the life of Mufasa. I don't know if it will make those of us who were traumatized by his treacherous murder when he was pushed from the cliff and then trampled to death by the stampeding wildebeest as his adorable son who had just been saved from said stampede by his brave father watched him fall...feel any better, but it's worth a try, I guess.
On another front, I wanted to thank Modgellan for stepping in yesterday. We don't always see eye to eye, and I tried to make it clear that I would accept his review even if I didn't agree with it.
One thing he only touched on that I think needs to be said out loud. And I'm putting on the modhat even though I take it very personally.
DWBH said a LOT of hateful things about me after he left GSC, and I am not really at liberty to respond because he's no longer on this site to defend himself. I will tell you that he went on a vicious and hostile social media campaign to slander my personal and professional reputation.
I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant allegation.
OldSkool can come here and defend himself whenever he wants. But I expect him and everyone else to be honest about it. He was always perfectly free to espouse his point of view. That was never the problem. The problem was he had zero tolerance for anyone espousing the opposite point of view. GSC has dozens of threads where Christianity is presumed, the scripture is respected as an authority, and unbelievers have [at best] limited reign to interject. That wasn't good enough for OS. He had to say Christianity is no longer welcome at GSC, which is demonstrably untrue. Then he got mad at me for calling that lie a lie. Too bad. OS was not banned. He left because he wanted to, never recanting the lie that served as his motive.
I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant allegation.
Finally, poor skyrider. I believe in our years on GSC, we maybe crossed swords a few times. I want to say I challenged an anecdote of his, but I truly don't recall if it was skyrider, Socrates or socks. Whoever it was, it was years ago and never stopped any of them from posting. Maybe they avoided ME. Hard to tell seeing as I don't/didn't interact with any of them often enough to notice. Sorry, but it's true. They say their thing and nine times out of eight I don't get involved. I'm not saying never, but it's rare.
In his very last post, May 25, 2023, he praised GSC for shining the light on TWI. He also quoted scripture. It's in the Time To Come Home thread in About the Way.
Here's something skyrider wrote in Feb. 2023:
Quote
With healthy discussions and vigorous debate....GSC allows participants to engage in open discussions. No questions are off-limits [except politics]. Neither twi nor its splinter groups allow for open, full-throated discussions in the public arena. Why the censorship? What are they protecting? We saw ALL OF THIS back in 1986 when the trustees prohibited anyone from reading John Schoenheit's research paper on "Adultery." Many corps leaders were fired and/or shunned for even reading it. Why was twi so afraid of uncovering the biblical truths regarding adultery? Any guesses? LOL
Fast forward to 2023.... and the censorship regarding questions about wierwille remain.
But not here..... not at GSC.
THAT is what skyrider thought of GSC.
Five months after his final post, Skyrider died. DIED. He didn't "quit posting because Raf made him feel unwelcome." He DIED.
And you have the cold-hearted AUDACITY to blame MY conduct as a moderator for the decision of a man to stop posting here after his DEATH?!?!
I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant absolutely contemptible allegation.
The phrase gets used too often to be effective, but if ever there was a time it was appropriate: YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.
Off my soap box. Apologies for digressing from the thread topic.
One of the things atheists constantly need to contend with is the constant invocation of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. In short, this is a technique in which a member of a group denounces another member of the same group for a real or perceived difference that the atheist is somehow supposed to account for prior to making any criticism.
"I understand you don't like Christianity because A, but you need to realize REAL Christians reject A."
Meanwhile most don't. You do. But only because you know A is indefensible even though you wish it weren't.
"You know. most Christians don't believe the Bible is inerrant."
They don't? Ok, so when we complain about errors in the Bible, we're not undermining your...
"Shut up about errors in the Bible. That doesn't prove anything!"
Sure it does. It proves the book has errors and you can't rely on it as history, for example.
"No True Christian considers the Bible an account of history."
Fantastic. So we agree Exodus and the Great Flood, among other stories, never happened.
"How do YOU know they never happened?"
But you JUST SAID we can't trust the Bible as history.
"PROVE IT'S WRONG!"
There is no record of the 10 plagues or the firstborn of everyone in Egypt dying.
"No True Christian believes that's history."
It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a rational discussion with people who "debate" like this. It's one excuse after another and we're just standing by watching you twist yourself into a pretzel and begging you to see reason by asking "DO YOU HEAR YOURSELF?!?!"
There are some people who follow a version of Christianity so unique to themselves that it's impossible for anyone to discuss it with them rationally. "My Christianity holds that Genesis didn't really happen but it talks about these stories to impart spiritual truths that, when you look really closely at them, make us better people." Except they don't.
Lesson: If God tells you to kill your kid, the morally correct answer is "NO YOU BLOOMING SOCIOPATH! I WILL NOT KILL MY SON! AND IF THAT'S YOUR IDEA OF A TEST, I'D BETTER HAVE PASSED BY SAYING NO, YOU SICK THUCK!"
But no, Abraham is the HERO of this story.
Unless he were alive today. Someone kills their kid today and says God told them to do it, you KNOW he's psychotic, no questions asked.
But it happens in the desert 5,000 years ago and you're supposed to say "What Incredible Faith!"
NO!
Why do we accept conduct from the characters of the Bible that we would never accept today, even those who claimed back then they were acting on God's instructions?
"Ok, here's what I need you to do. You see those people over there? Kill them all. All of them. Even the kids. Kill every last one of them. Leave none alive."
William Lane Craig looks at that instruction and feels sorry for the poor person who has to do all that killing. The trauma!
How about having a little compassion for the women and children being killed? Nope. Not an ounce. The real victims are the killers. They were just following God's instruction. Poor things.
And WE don't get to say this is morally indefensible because if we do, get this, WE are arrogant!
"Lesson: If God tells you to kill your kid, the morally correct answer is "NO YOU BLOOMING SOCIOPATH! I WILL NOT KILL MY SON! AND IF THAT'S YOUR IDEA OF A TEST, I'D BETTER HAVE PASSED BY SAYING NO, YOU SICK THUCK!"
But no, Abraham is the HERO of this story.
Unless he were alive today. Someone kills their kid today and says God told them to do it, you KNOW he's psychotic, no questions asked.
But it happens in the desert 5,000 years ago and you're supposed to say "What Incredible Faith!"
On another front, I wanted to thank Modgellan for stepping in yesterday. We don't always see eye to eye, and I tried to make it clear that I would accept his review even if I didn't agree with it.
One thing he only touched on that I think needs to be said out loud. And I'm putting on the modhat even though I take it very personally.
DWBH said a LOT of hateful things about me after he left GSC, and I am not really at liberty to respond because he's no longer on this site to defend himself. I will tell you that he went on a vicious and hostile social media campaign to slander my personal and professional reputation.
I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant allegation.
OldSkool can come here and defend himself whenever he wants. But I expect him and everyone else to be honest about it. He was always perfectly free to espouse his point of view. That was never the problem. The problem was he had zero tolerance for anyone espousing the opposite point of view. GSC has dozens of threads where Christianity is presumed, the scripture is respected as an authority, and unbelievers have [at best] limited reign to interject. That wasn't good enough for OS. He had to say Christianity is no longer welcome at GSC, which is demonstrably untrue. Then he got mad at me for calling that lie a lie. Too bad. OS was not banned. He left because he wanted to, never recanting the lie that served as his motive.
I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant allegation.
Finally, poor skyrider. I believe in our years on GSC, we maybe crossed swords a few times. I want to say I challenged an anecdote of his, but I truly don't recall if it was skyrider, Socrates or socks. Whoever it was, it was years ago and never stopped any of them from posting. Maybe they avoided ME. Hard to tell seeing as I don't/didn't interact with any of them often enough to notice. Sorry, but it's true. They say their thing and nine times out of eight I don't get involved. I'm not saying never, but it's rare.
In his very last post, May 25, 2023, he praised GSC for shining the light on TWI. He also quoted scripture. It's in the Time To Come Home thread in About the Way.
Here's something skyrider wrote in Feb. 2023:
THAT is what skyrider thought of GSC.
Five months after his final post, Skyrider died. DIED. He didn't "quit posting because Raf made him feel unwelcome." He DIED.
And you have the cold-hearted AUDACITY to blame MY conduct as a moderator for the decision of a man to stop posting here after his DEATH?!?!
I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant absolutely contemptible allegation.
The phrase gets used too often to be effective, but if ever there was a time it was appropriate: YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.
Off my soap box. Apologies for digressing from the thread topic.
Lesson: If God tells you to kill your kid, the morally correct answer is "NO YOU BLOOMING SOCIOPATH! I WILL NOT KILL MY SON! AND IF THAT'S YOUR IDEA OF A TEST, I'D BETTER HAVE PASSED BY SAYING NO, YOU SICK THUCK!"
But no, Abraham is the HERO of this story.
Unless he were alive today. Someone kills their kid today and says God told them to do it, you KNOW he's psychotic, no questions asked.
But it happens in the desert 5,000 years ago and you're supposed to say "What Incredible Faith!"
NO!
Genesis 22 - the real story
Why does God need to test a believer's faith if he knows their thoughts and what's in their heart? He had to have known what Abraham would do. (You have to ignore verse 12 though - for just like with Adam and Eve, YHWH appears to be a totally clueless God.)
So, if testing was not necessary to prove Abraham's faith to God, it must have been to prove Abraham's faith to himself. Regardless of having to experience for 3 days the mental and emotional anguish from having to kill his only child, Abraham would learn just how strong his trust in God actually was.
BUT, there incredibly Abraham doesn't struggle with the idea at all. Supposedly, the reason for this was because Abraham knew that God's plan was to raise Isaac from the dead!
So, the rational question is why play the whole thing out? God could have said to Abraham, "Look Abe, I knew if I asked you that you would do it. Wait to go!" Then Abraham could say, "I knew, all-powerful and merciful God, that you would raise Isaac's ashes back to life. Glory be to you!" Then they could have shook hands - end of story.
This whole ridiculous story was not about God and Abraham - it's a lesson to the readers. OBEY GOD NO MATTER WHAT AND YOU WILL GET YOUR FULL REWARDS AFTER YOU DIE. (See vs 16-18)
One last thing, apologists will say that the purpose of the story is to foretell God sending his own only-begotten son into the world to die FOR US. My response is what's so great about God doing it when Abraham was willing to do the same thing.
OS is perfectly welcome to post. He is not welcome to LIE.
DWBH used this site to libel people. He proceeded to harass me on various social media sites in an effort to defame me before my friends, colleagues and peers. I DARE you talk to him personally about his relationship with me and why we're no longer on speaking terms. Bring a tape recorder.
You called me a dog and got mad at MY vitriol? Please.
GET
YOURSELF
Once again, people are perfectly welcome to post all sorts of views about all sorts of things. What you want is not equal treatment, but privilege. You want to be able to call us arrogant and dogs and closed-minded and biased [and I see now that you have decided to escalate the name-calling], and you want us to not respond.
You and I had it out, we made our peace, and that was that. But for some reason this thread has you gobsmacked to the point where you can't disagree with Charity or with me without being personal about it, calling us names and accusing us of lacking your open-mindedness (which is not open-minded at all).
This is not how people with evidence on their side behave. This is how one behaves when one has lost a debate centered on ideas but still wants to appear to have some standing.
Like I said, I asked the other mods to have a look so that I am not moderating myself.
What an idiotic statement. Of course I know sky passed and that is why he no longer posts here. OS stopped due to anti Christian bias and perceived moderation in that direction whatever your story is. I can ask him if you want.
Yes DWBH quit posting here over a conflict with you I’ve spoken with him outside of here. Your side of the story shows how hot the argument got. The edit to my post was unnecessary I never said he was banned. I do think I remember a temp ban but won’t stick on that point. Still in the history of this site he has posted the most relevant insider knowledge of anyone here. And you chased him off. This is fact not opinion so deal with it. I’m on up there in that list too with insider information. As is OS. And look where we are with you.
The dog in a manger statement is a simile. It is describing your behavior of barking at people who believe scripture contains inspiration. You know figurative language? Oh wait you don’t know what that is.
That is why you guys can’t figure out Abraham and Isaac even though TWI taught you God didn’t ask him to kill his kid. I mean Mikey would be here to point out what collateral that is in. He’s gone too. Maybe that’s my fault who knows.
You are stuck on fundamentalism. This to me shows the true anti Christ nature of TWI. For a large part the cult teachings are so strong people need to depart from all of Christianity to deal with it.
Deal with it however you want. This site is losing relevance and interest to me.
I believe there are 2 categories of knowledge in scripture - natural reasoning knowledge and spiritual inspiration knowledge.
The Bible contains many strange OT accounts. No stranger than other history books who discuss the same killing and war and atrocity. People in the OT crafted a golden calf idol after a very short time absent Moses direction.
TWI leadership crafted a similar image of VPW. So peoples behavior in the NT with all the extras available supposedly from scripture don’t seem all that more advanced from the OT.
Many of the remaining Christian posters have grown silent over time. Read into that what you will.
Still in the history of this site he has posted the most relevant insider knowledge of anyone here. And you chased him off. This is fact not opinion so deal with it. I’m on up there in that list too with insider information. As is OS. And look where we are with you.
Couple of points.
First, I would seriously not brag about being in that company.
Second, that I chased DWBH off the site is a slanderous lie. That you believe your so-called insider information WITHOUT HAVING DISCUSSED IT WITH ME speaks volumes about your fact-finding efforts. Had you one OUNCE of decency and fairness, you would have contacted me for my side of the story. You never did. You judged me on the word of a man who has chased every close friend out of his life with his increasingly unhinged behavior.
But you never even ASKED for my side of the story.
Why don't you ask oldiesman how DWBH treated him before I had to step in?
Because that would be fair and that's the last thing you want.
Has OS seen any meaningful eclipses lately? What did they mean? Before you go trusting his lying-ass word about what happened on GSC, why don't you check out his reliability?
Better yet, I defy you to find a single example of me shutting OS down over an issue of faith. One. ONE.
You won't be able to because it never happened.
Of course you know skyrider stopped posting because he died. DIDN'T STOP YOU FROM DISHONESTLY BLAMING ME FOR HIS ABSENCE THOUGH, DID IT?
That is why you guys can’t figure out Abraham and Isaac even though TWI taught you God didn’t ask him to kill his kid. I mean Mikey would be here to point out what collateral that is in. He’s gone too. Maybe that’s my fault who knows.
You are stuck on fundamentalism. This to me shows the true anti Christ nature of TWI. For a large part the cult teachings are so strong people need to depart from all of Christianity to deal with it.
All I remember is that vpw taught Abraham "misunderstood" what God meant. If this was true, God would have known this immediately and yet he waits until the last second where Isaac sees the knife being raised above him to correct Abraham. That teaching was simply to blame Abraham and stop God from looking horrendous.
The writer of Hebrews 11:17-19 did not take Genesis 22 figuratively.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
This confirms that God did tell Abraham to kill Isaac and the mention of it in Hebrews 11 is to draw attention to Abraham's faith which is why he was willing to obey such a hideous command. (A faith, BTW, that believers are expected to follow Heb 12:1)
I stand by my previous post that Gen 22 is a ridiculous story meant to teach obedience. Any relationship it has to John 3:16 only shows God is no greater than Abraham in being willing to give up their only begotten son.
Obviously no one is entitled to an opinion on scripture except chockfull, so you should just accept that you're wrong, biased and wearing sh!t-colored glasses because if you don't, you might kill another Christian GSer to keep him from posting.
Is that how it works now?
Self-appointed prophets are ok because they have faith.
Non-theists are blinded by bias because they reject God
Obviously no one is entitled to an opinion on scripture except chockfull, so you should just accept that you're wrong, biased and wearing sh!t-colored glasses because if you don't, you might kill another Christian GSer to keep him from posting.
Is that how it works now?
Self-appointed prophets are ok because they have faith.
Non-theists are blinded by bias because they reject God
Thankfully, there are others who contribute to this post. And I figure, any time Chockfull posts, then it's open for replies.
There are tons of Bible stories that make no sense when you look at them dispassionately. Abraham is just the tip of the iceberg.
I don't think that means much to a growing number of people who prefer to subjectively read the bible for what value certain parts hold for them. The only difference with them and atheists is that atheists stopped seeing value in any of it.
But that doesn't prohibit either group from discussing it.
Edited by Charity Added last sentence for preventative reasons
Did Abraham misunderstand? (There's probably a glove for that.)
One might expect him to be admonished for not understanding, for not listening and for not obeying what Yahweh actually said and meant. But, no, he was rewarded for doing exactly as commanded.
3Earlyin themorningAbrahamgot upandsaddledhisdonkey.Hetooktwoof hisyoung servantswithhim, along with hissonIsaac. When he hadcutthewoodfor theburnt offering, hestartedoutfortheplaceGodhadspokento himabout.
4On thethirddayAbrahamcaughtsight oftheplacein thedistance.5Sohesaidtohisservants, “You twostayherewiththedonkeywhiletheboyandIgoupthere. We willworshipand thenreturntoyou.”
6Abrahamtookthewoodfor theburnt offeringandputitonhissonIsaac. Then hetookthefireand theknifein hishand,and thetwoof themwalked ontogether.7IsaacsaidtohisfatherAbraham,“Myfather?” “What is it,myson?” hereplied. “Hereis thefireand thewood,” Isaacsaid,“butwhereis thelambfor theburnt offering?”8“Godwillprovidefor himself thelambfor theburnt offering, myson,”Abrahamreplied. Thetwoof themcontinued ontogether.
9When theycametotheplaceGodhadtoldhimabout,Abrahambuiltthealtarthereandarrangedthewoodon it. Next hetied uphissonIsaacandplacedhimonthealtaron top ofthewood.10ThenAbrahamreached outhishand,tooktheknife, and prepared toslaughterhisson.11But theangelof theLordcalledtohimfromheaven, “Abraham!Abraham!” “HereI am!” heanswered.12“Donotharmtheboy!”the angelsaid.“Donot do anythingto him,fornowIknowthatyoufearGodbecause you didnotwithholdyourson, youronly son,from me.”
15Theangelof theLordcalledtoAbrahamasecond timefromheaven16andsaid, “Isolemnly swearby my own name,decreestheLord,thatbecauseyou havedonethisand havenotwithheldyourson, youronly son,17I willindeedblessyou,and I willgreatlymultiplyyourdescendantsso that they will be as countless as thestarsin theskyor thegrains of sandontheseashore. Yourdescendantswilltake possession ofthestrongholdsof theirenemies.18Becauseyou haveobeyedme,allthenationsof theearthwillpronounce blessingson one anotherusing the name of yourdescendants.”
Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son" Abe say, "Man, you must be puttin' me on" God say, "No", Abe say, "What?" God say, "You can do what you want Abe But the next time you see me comin', you better run
"Well", Abe said, "Where you want this killin' done?" God said, "Out on Highway 61"
Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son" Abe say, "Man, you must be puttin' me on" God say, "No", Abe say, "What?" God say, "You can do what you want Abe But the next time you see me comin', you better run
"Well", Abe said, "Where you want this killin' done?" God said, "Out on Highway 61"
From Rolling Stones 100 Greatest of All Times - Sons by Bob Dylan
First, I would seriously not brag about being in that company.
Second, that I chased DWBH off the site is a slanderous lie. That you believe your so-called insider information WITHOUT HAVING DISCUSSED IT WITH ME speaks volumes about your fact-finding efforts. Had you one OUNCE of decency and fairness, you would have contacted me for my side of the story. You never did. You judged me on the word of a man who has chased every close friend out of his life with his increasingly unhinged behavior.
But you never even ASKED for my side of the story.
Why don't you ask oldiesman how DWBH treated him before I had to step in?
Because that would be fair and that's the last thing you want.
Has OS seen any meaningful eclipses lately? What did they mean? Before you go trusting his lying-foot word about what happened on GSC, why don't you check out his reliability?
Better yet, I defy you to find a single example of me shutting OS down over an issue of faith. One. ONE.
You won't be able to because it never happened.
Of course you know skyrider stopped posting because he died. DIDN'T STOP YOU FROM DISHONESTLY BLAMING ME FOR HIS ABSENCE THOUGH, DID IT?
When you get mad you twist things up. I know much more about DWBH then I have ever discussed here and have conversed with him outside here. You’ve accused him of libel now publicly here on this thread. Was this something he was charged with or convicted of? Because there are those type of things.
I did not blame you for sky dying and not posting here. I’m sad he’s gone for sure as he was a fantastic brother and great person personally. One more twisted statement from you.
OS is happy doing his thing I guess. He 100 percent posted on here his departure and reasons being as a Christian not having that view welcome. Whatever. I’m not a private investigator but optics matter. You didn’t seem to vehemently defend yourself to him as he was leaving like you are now. Whatever.
And lastly yes I am 100 percent f ing lunatic because now I’m going to remind you of PFAL collateral volume 3 entitled Of Human Sacrifice.
Read it again. Or not. It might explain a little Abraham and Isaac and might give a clue to a blend of inspiration and people thinking God told them something.
I’m going to remind you of PFAL collateral volume 3 entitled Of Human Sacrifice.
Read it again. Or not. It might explain a little Abraham and Isaac and might give a clue to a blend of inspiration and people thinking God told them something.
I don't currently have access to my collaterals. What is the salient point(s) being made?
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modcat5
It is done.
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Charity
You know there is a new Disney musical drama film being released in December about the life of Mufasa. I don't know if it will make those of us who were traumatized by his treacherous murder when he was pushed from the cliff and then trampled to death by the stampeding wildebeest as his adorable son who had just been saved from said stampede by his brave father watched him fall...feel any better, but it's worth a try, I guess.
And thanks for changing the name!
Edited by Charitygrammar error
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modcat5
No worries.
See what I did there?
On another front, I wanted to thank Modgellan for stepping in yesterday. We don't always see eye to eye, and I tried to make it clear that I would accept his review even if I didn't agree with it.
One thing he only touched on that I think needs to be said out loud. And I'm putting on the modhat even though I take it very personally.
DWBH said a LOT of hateful things about me after he left GSC, and I am not really at liberty to respond because he's no longer on this site to defend himself. I will tell you that he went on a vicious and hostile social media campaign to slander my personal and professional reputation.
I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant allegation.
OldSkool can come here and defend himself whenever he wants. But I expect him and everyone else to be honest about it. He was always perfectly free to espouse his point of view. That was never the problem. The problem was he had zero tolerance for anyone espousing the opposite point of view. GSC has dozens of threads where Christianity is presumed, the scripture is respected as an authority, and unbelievers have [at best] limited reign to interject. That wasn't good enough for OS. He had to say Christianity is no longer welcome at GSC, which is demonstrably untrue. Then he got mad at me for calling that lie a lie. Too bad. OS was not banned. He left because he wanted to, never recanting the lie that served as his motive.
I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant allegation.
Finally, poor skyrider. I believe in our years on GSC, we maybe crossed swords a few times. I want to say I challenged an anecdote of his, but I truly don't recall if it was skyrider, Socrates or socks. Whoever it was, it was years ago and never stopped any of them from posting. Maybe they avoided ME. Hard to tell seeing as I don't/didn't interact with any of them often enough to notice. Sorry, but it's true. They say their thing and nine times out of eight I don't get involved. I'm not saying never, but it's rare.
In his very last post, May 25, 2023, he praised GSC for shining the light on TWI. He also quoted scripture. It's in the Time To Come Home thread in About the Way.
Here's something skyrider wrote in Feb. 2023:
THAT is what skyrider thought of GSC.
Five months after his final post, Skyrider died. DIED. He didn't "quit posting because Raf made him feel unwelcome." He DIED.
And you have the cold-hearted AUDACITY to blame MY conduct as a moderator for the decision of a man to stop posting here after his DEATH?!?!
I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant absolutely contemptible allegation.
The phrase gets used too often to be effective, but if ever there was a time it was appropriate: YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.
Off my soap box. Apologies for digressing from the thread topic.
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Raf
One of the things atheists constantly need to contend with is the constant invocation of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. In short, this is a technique in which a member of a group denounces another member of the same group for a real or perceived difference that the atheist is somehow supposed to account for prior to making any criticism.
"I understand you don't like Christianity because A, but you need to realize REAL Christians reject A."
Meanwhile most don't. You do. But only because you know A is indefensible even though you wish it weren't.
"You know. most Christians don't believe the Bible is inerrant."
They don't? Ok, so when we complain about errors in the Bible, we're not undermining your...
"Shut up about errors in the Bible. That doesn't prove anything!"
Sure it does. It proves the book has errors and you can't rely on it as history, for example.
"No True Christian considers the Bible an account of history."
Fantastic. So we agree Exodus and the Great Flood, among other stories, never happened.
"How do YOU know they never happened?"
But you JUST SAID we can't trust the Bible as history.
"PROVE IT'S WRONG!"
There is no record of the 10 plagues or the firstborn of everyone in Egypt dying.
"No True Christian believes that's history."
It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a rational discussion with people who "debate" like this. It's one excuse after another and we're just standing by watching you twist yourself into a pretzel and begging you to see reason by asking "DO YOU HEAR YOURSELF?!?!"
There are some people who follow a version of Christianity so unique to themselves that it's impossible for anyone to discuss it with them rationally. "My Christianity holds that Genesis didn't really happen but it talks about these stories to impart spiritual truths that, when you look really closely at them, make us better people." Except they don't.
Lesson: If God tells you to kill your kid, the morally correct answer is "NO YOU BLOOMING SOCIOPATH! I WILL NOT KILL MY SON! AND IF THAT'S YOUR IDEA OF A TEST, I'D BETTER HAVE PASSED BY SAYING NO, YOU SICK THUCK!"
But no, Abraham is the HERO of this story.
Unless he were alive today. Someone kills their kid today and says God told them to do it, you KNOW he's psychotic, no questions asked.
But it happens in the desert 5,000 years ago and you're supposed to say "What Incredible Faith!"
NO!
Why do we accept conduct from the characters of the Bible that we would never accept today, even those who claimed back then they were acting on God's instructions?
"Ok, here's what I need you to do. You see those people over there? Kill them all. All of them. Even the kids. Kill every last one of them. Leave none alive."
William Lane Craig looks at that instruction and feels sorry for the poor person who has to do all that killing. The trauma!
How about having a little compassion for the women and children being killed? Nope. Not an ounce. The real victims are the killers. They were just following God's instruction. Poor things.
And WE don't get to say this is morally indefensible because if we do, get this, WE are arrogant!
You know...
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Nathan_Jr
let, Let, LET me repeat this...
Raf wrote,
"Lesson: If God tells you to kill your kid, the morally correct answer is "NO YOU BLOOMING SOCIOPATH! I WILL NOT KILL MY SON! AND IF THAT'S YOUR IDEA OF A TEST, I'D BETTER HAVE PASSED BY SAYING NO, YOU SICK THUCK!"
But no, Abraham is the HERO of this story.
Unless he were alive today. Someone kills their kid today and says God told them to do it, you KNOW he's psychotic, no questions asked.
But it happens in the desert 5,000 years ago and you're supposed to say "What Incredible Faith!"
NO!"
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oldiesman
Completely agree. Thank you.
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Charity
Genesis 22 - the real story
Why does God need to test a believer's faith if he knows their thoughts and what's in their heart? He had to have known what Abraham would do. (You have to ignore verse 12 though - for just like with Adam and Eve, YHWH appears to be a totally clueless God.)
So, if testing was not necessary to prove Abraham's faith to God, it must have been to prove Abraham's faith to himself. Regardless of having to experience for 3 days the mental and emotional anguish from having to kill his only child, Abraham would learn just how strong his trust in God actually was.
BUT, there incredibly Abraham doesn't struggle with the idea at all. Supposedly, the reason for this was because Abraham knew that God's plan was to raise Isaac from the dead!
So, the rational question is why play the whole thing out? God could have said to Abraham, "Look Abe, I knew if I asked you that you would do it. Wait to go!" Then Abraham could say, "I knew, all-powerful and merciful God, that you would raise Isaac's ashes back to life. Glory be to you!" Then they could have shook hands - end of story.
This whole ridiculous story was not about God and Abraham - it's a lesson to the readers. OBEY GOD NO MATTER WHAT AND YOU WILL GET YOUR FULL REWARDS AFTER YOU DIE. (See vs 16-18)
One last thing, apologists will say that the purpose of the story is to foretell God sending his own only-begotten son into the world to die FOR US. My response is what's so great about God doing it when Abraham was willing to do the same thing.
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chockfull
What an idiotic statement. Of course I know sky passed and that is why he no longer posts here. OS stopped due to anti Christian bias and perceived moderation in that direction whatever your story is. I can ask him if you want.
Yes DWBH quit posting here over a conflict with you I’ve spoken with him outside of here. Your side of the story shows how hot the argument got. The edit to my post was unnecessary I never said he was banned. I do think I remember a temp ban but won’t stick on that point. Still in the history of this site he has posted the most relevant insider knowledge of anyone here. And you chased him off. This is fact not opinion so deal with it. I’m on up there in that list too with insider information. As is OS. And look where we are with you.
The dog in a manger statement is a simile. It is describing your behavior of barking at people who believe scripture contains inspiration. You know figurative language? Oh wait you don’t know what that is.
That is why you guys can’t figure out Abraham and Isaac even though TWI taught you God didn’t ask him to kill his kid. I mean Mikey would be here to point out what collateral that is in. He’s gone too. Maybe that’s my fault who knows.
You are stuck on fundamentalism. This to me shows the true anti Christ nature of TWI. For a large part the cult teachings are so strong people need to depart from all of Christianity to deal with it.
Deal with it however you want. This site is losing relevance and interest to me.
I believe there are 2 categories of knowledge in scripture - natural reasoning knowledge and spiritual inspiration knowledge.
The Bible contains many strange OT accounts. No stranger than other history books who discuss the same killing and war and atrocity. People in the OT crafted a golden calf idol after a very short time absent Moses direction.
TWI leadership crafted a similar image of VPW. So peoples behavior in the NT with all the extras available supposedly from scripture don’t seem all that more advanced from the OT.
Many of the remaining Christian posters have grown silent over time. Read into that what you will.
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Raf
Something is really wrong with you, chockfull.
If you want to relitigate DWBH's departure from GSC, you are free to take it up with the site owner.
But at this point after being told multiple times you continue to blame me, there is no reasoning with you.
Continue to post all you want. Continue to express your evasive, criticism-immune faith all you want. I will not stop you.
I didn't expect an apology from you, bur I did expect a modicum of decency.
Somehow you didn't even manage THAT.
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Raf
So have many of the atheists. Hell most of the moderators are gone. PAW is gone most of the time.
Most of GSC did exactly what its critics said they should do: they've moved on.
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Raf
Couple of points.
First, I would seriously not brag about being in that company.
Second, that I chased DWBH off the site is a slanderous lie. That you believe your so-called insider information WITHOUT HAVING DISCUSSED IT WITH ME speaks volumes about your fact-finding efforts. Had you one OUNCE of decency and fairness, you would have contacted me for my side of the story. You never did. You judged me on the word of a man who has chased every close friend out of his life with his increasingly unhinged behavior.
But you never even ASKED for my side of the story.
Why don't you ask oldiesman how DWBH treated him before I had to step in?
Because that would be fair and that's the last thing you want.
Has OS seen any meaningful eclipses lately? What did they mean? Before you go trusting his lying-ass word about what happened on GSC, why don't you check out his reliability?
Better yet, I defy you to find a single example of me shutting OS down over an issue of faith. One. ONE.
You won't be able to because it never happened.
Of course you know skyrider stopped posting because he died. DIDN'T STOP YOU FROM DISHONESTLY BLAMING ME FOR HIS ABSENCE THOUGH, DID IT?
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Charity
All I remember is that vpw taught Abraham "misunderstood" what God meant. If this was true, God would have known this immediately and yet he waits until the last second where Isaac sees the knife being raised above him to correct Abraham. That teaching was simply to blame Abraham and stop God from looking horrendous.
The writer of Hebrews 11:17-19 did not take Genesis 22 figuratively.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
This confirms that God did tell Abraham to kill Isaac and the mention of it in Hebrews 11 is to draw attention to Abraham's faith which is why he was willing to obey such a hideous command. (A faith, BTW, that believers are expected to follow Heb 12:1)
I stand by my previous post that Gen 22 is a ridiculous story meant to teach obedience. Any relationship it has to John 3:16 only shows God is no greater than Abraham in being willing to give up their only begotten son.
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Raf
Obviously no one is entitled to an opinion on scripture except chockfull, so you should just accept that you're wrong, biased and wearing sh!t-colored glasses because if you don't, you might kill another Christian GSer to keep him from posting.
Is that how it works now?
Self-appointed prophets are ok because they have faith.
Non-theists are blinded by bias because they reject God
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Charity
Thankfully, there are others who contribute to this post. And I figure, any time Chockfull posts, then it's open for replies.
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Raf
Good point.
There are tons of Bible stories that make no sense when you look at them dispassionately. Abraham is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Charity
I don't think that means much to a growing number of people who prefer to subjectively read the bible for what value certain parts hold for them. The only difference with them and atheists is that atheists stopped seeing value in any of it.
But that doesn't prohibit either group from discussing it.
Edited by CharityAdded last sentence for preventative reasons
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Nathan_Jr
Did Abraham misunderstand? (There's probably a glove for that.)
One might expect him to be admonished for not understanding, for not listening and for not obeying what Yahweh actually said and meant. But, no, he was rewarded for doing exactly as commanded.
The Sacrifice of Isaac (NET)
22 Some time after these things God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” “Here I am!” Abrahamreplied. 2 God said, “Take your son—your only son, whom you love, Isaac—and go to the land of Moriah! Offer him up there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will indicate to you.”
3 Early in the morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took two of his young servants with him, along with his son Isaac. When he had cut the wood for the burnt offering, he started out for the place God had spoken to him about.
4 On the third day Abraham caught sight of the place in the distance. 5 So he said to his servants, “You two stayhere with the donkey while the boy and I go up there. We will worship and then return to you.”
6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and put it on his son Isaac. Then he took the fire and the knifein his hand, and the two of them walked on together. 7 Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father?” “What is it, my son?” he replied. “Here is the fire and the wood,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?” 8 “God will provide for himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son,” Abraham replied. The two of them continued on together.
9 When they came to the place God had told him about, Abraham built the altar there and arranged the woodon it. Next he tied up his son Isaac and placed him on the altar on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand, took the knife, and prepared to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him fromheaven, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am!” he answered. 12 “Do not harm the boy!” the angel said. “Do not do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God because you did not withhold your son, your only son, from me.”
13 Abraham looked up and saw behind him a ram caught in the bushes by its horns. So he went over and got the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place “The Lord provides.” It is said to this day, “In the mountain of the Lord provision will be made.”
15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “I solemnly swear by my own name, decrees the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17I will indeed bless you, and I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be as countless as the starsin the sky or the grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the strongholds of their enemies. 18 Because you have obeyed me, all the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using the name of your descendants.”
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waysider
Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son" Abe say, "Man, you must be puttin' me on" God say, "No", Abe say, "What?" God say, "You can do what you want Abe But the next time you see me comin', you better run
"Well", Abe said, "Where you want this killin' done?" God said, "Out on Highway 61"
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Charity
From Rolling Stones 100 Greatest of All Times - Sons by Bob Dylan
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waysider
Heh!
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chockfull
When you get mad you twist things up. I know much more about DWBH then I have ever discussed here and have conversed with him outside here. You’ve accused him of libel now publicly here on this thread. Was this something he was charged with or convicted of? Because there are those type of things.
I did not blame you for sky dying and not posting here. I’m sad he’s gone for sure as he was a fantastic brother and great person personally. One more twisted statement from you.
OS is happy doing his thing I guess. He 100 percent posted on here his departure and reasons being as a Christian not having that view welcome. Whatever. I’m not a private investigator but optics matter. You didn’t seem to vehemently defend yourself to him as he was leaving like you are now. Whatever.
And lastly yes I am 100 percent f ing lunatic because now I’m going to remind you of PFAL collateral volume 3 entitled Of Human Sacrifice.
Read it again. Or not. It might explain a little Abraham and Isaac and might give a clue to a blend of inspiration and people thinking God told them something.
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Raf
Digressing ends here.
Next mention gets deleted without warning
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waysider
I don't currently have access to my collaterals. What is the salient point(s) being made?
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Charity
If anyone cares to read it.
https://picturesofsilver.com/Teachings/02genAbe4b.php
ABRAHAM - Father of Believing
Of Human Sacrifice
It might need to be copied and pasted onto the internet.
Edited by CharityChanged first sentence.
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