Deconversion: Letting go of one's religious belief and accepting reality on its own terms.

[Charity]

7 hours ago, Rocky said:

Isn't sociological narrative both powerful and incredibly tricky? I again rejoice with you for the (mental and emotional) work you do to process what you've been learning. I suspect that processing has shown you that what we learned from Wierwille's "ministry/cult had obvious limitations. Your life experience, notably with your precious grandson showed you some of those limitations. My view is that God (or one's imagination of what God is or may be) are FAR bigger than what twi could imagine or bring into manifestation.

My view is that God (or one's imagination of what God is or may be) is FAR bigger than what twi could imagine or bring into manifestation.

The thing is Rocky, this time I haven’t just walked away from God like I have done a few times before in my life or stopped navigating how to better understand His ways – I've now stopped believing that the god as laid out in the bible exists.   

I also rejoice in what you've shared about while researching compassion and fear.  Thanks - nice to hear.

Though my challenges aren't the same as your challenges, I remain curious and each day wanting to learn and expand what I can know. I have an 11-year old grandson who recently shared with me that he attends school online. And that he doesn't miss in-person school.

I have an 11-year old granddaughter who is the sister of my grandson with autism.  Life has been stressful for her at times seeing what her brother has gone through, but she's also seen the many successes in his life as well. 

My heart goes out to him and to my daughter's family even though they are reluctant to share the details of my grandson's challenges.

I have, over the course of the last decade, observed my grandson exhibiting intense curiosity about various aspects of life. I have no doubt that my grandson's curiosity is a great gift regardless of the social difficulties he endures. 

I empathize with these feelings – I’ve had them many times over the years as a parent and grandparent.  I think you can have a positive influence on your grandson as you continue to support him.  You both have that curious nature which hopefully will open doors between you two whether you live in the same city or not.  I wish you all the best with this, Rocky.   Keep me updated on how things are going if you'd like.

Anyway, I am so thankful for what you've shared with us on GSC, dear Charity.    Thanks, I appreciate you saying this.  

I watched the video - it was pretty insightful.  Thanks for sharing it. 

 

 

[Rocky]

2 minutes ago, Charity said:

 

  

[chockfull]

13 hours ago, Charity said:

Early blood testing showed my grandson was born with a rare gene deletion which caused him to require life-saving surgery when he was a day old and two subsequent major surgeries to completely correct a physical abnormality.  We were told that as he grew older, autism may also be a possibility because of this deletion. 

Fundamentalist beliefs can cause people to refuse medical intervention for themselves or their children because it meant doubting god's ability to heal.  I knew the physical reasons for my grandson's health issues but still fell a few times for the doctrine that certain illnesses can be caused by devil spirits.  Not anymore now.

Glad you found medical answers and have enjoyed a rich interaction with your grandson.

The JWs are real bad about the medical stuff and superstition with how they refuse any blood transfusions due to some strange scripture interpretation.

I blame the Adv Class for all the stuff about devil spirits.  It was like Harry Potter crossed with conspiracy theory with some OT reading to lull the hearers to sleep.

It is interesting to see the end result of all of that is driving people away from faith.

[waysider]

8 hours ago, chockfull said:

I blame the Adv Class for all the stuff about devil spirits.

In the foundational class, you're told you have unlimited power to do whatever you can imagine. By the time you get to the advanced class, you're walking on eggshells, looking over your shoulder, making sure the adversary doesn't creep up on you and snuff you out for moving the word. Power for abundant living indeed. Don't leave, though, unless you want to end up a greasespot in the road by midnight.

[Charity]

10 hours ago, chockfull said:

 

I blame the Adv Class for all the stuff about devil spirits. 

 

 

1 hour ago, waysider said:

In the foundational class, you're told you have unlimited power to do whatever you can imagine. By the time you get to the advanced class, you're walking on eggshells, looking over your shoulder, making sure the adversary doesn't creep up on you and snuff you out for moving the word. Power for abundant living indeed. Don't leave, though, unless you want to end up a greasespot in the road by midnight.

For decades, I've only had this one disturbing memory of my entire time at the AC, and the posts above have finally put it into context. (Thank you both for writing them.) That context being the focus on the adversary and devil spirits.  My memory is vague but I do know I was feeling very bad about myself and so I went into hiding.  I don't remember for how long or where I went but I do know it was an intense feeling. I needed to get away from everyone. I no longer believe in devil spirits but at that time I obviously did, and I think now I may have believed I had one. 

I don't remember finishing the class but when I did and returned home, a lot of activity was going on in my life.  I learned right away about a man I had signed up for the class had just died suddenly, and my first reaction was to go and raise him from the dead.  Seriously!  I was so sure I could do this, I had to be talked out of it by a believer who was with me at the time.  She had been my WOW coordinator and was then in the way corps.  

I also told my fiance that I wanted to go wow - a decision I made during those 2 weeks - and he agreed (reluctantly he later told me).  Soon afterward we got married and within a week left for the ROA and went into the wow program.  Within the first month of being on the wow field, I had a total breakdown.  That intense feeling of self-condemnation that I had at the AC returned, I think because I was finding my wow commitment to be so overwhelming.  But quitting the assignment meant we'd be outside of god's protection and therefore open for terrible things to happen to us which included my innocent one-year-old son. 

My husband and I did leave both the wow program and twi and eventually things settled down in my mind.  But all this manic-depressive-like behavior started with that AC - the need to hide from others, deciding to go wow, the conviction I could raise someone from the dead, the rush of the ROA and wow training and finally the crash on the wow field.  What insanity!

But it didn't stop me from returning to twi a couple of years later.

[Charity]

 I just noticed I have "666" under my "C." 

Mmmph

Good thing I've deconverted 

Edited May 2 by Charity

[Rocky]

38 minutes ago, Charity said:

 I just noticed I have "666" under my "C." 

Mmmph

Good thing I've deconverted 

Now it's 667. Has to do with the number of posts/comments you make, I think. 

[Charity]

18 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Now it's 667. Has to do with the number of posts/comments you make, I think. 

A drop in the bucket compared to your number and all of the others .  It's totally insignificant that the first time I've noticed my number in I don't know how long, it was at 666, or is it ?

  Have a great day Rocky!

[waysider]

3 hours ago, Charity said:

For decades, I've only had this one disturbing memory of my entire time at the AC, and the posts above have finally put it into context. (Thank you both for writing them.) That context being the focus on the adversary and devil spirits.  My memory is vague but I do know I was feeling very bad about myself and so I went into hiding.  I don't remember for how long or where I went but I do know it was an intense feeling. I needed to get away from everyone. I no longer believe in devil spirits but at that time I obviously did, and I think now I may have believed I had one. 

I've never in my life experienced a more intense feeling of depression and hopelessness than I did those 2 weeks at the AC. Hearing about suicide supposedly being caused by a devil spirit certainly didn't help the situation. I had one of those confrontations with death, also, though it happened before I took the AC. My roommate had talked of committing suicide.  When I found him he was already dead. I felt guilt and shame for years for not trying to muster the believing to raise him from the dead.  I can't erase the pain it caused me then, but I can live my life now without feeling guilt about it.

Edited May 2 by waysider
missed a word

[Charity]

11 minutes ago, waysider said:

I've never in my life experienced a more intense feeling of depression and hopelessness as I did those 2 weeks at the AC. Hearing about suicide supposedly being caused by a devil spirit certainly didn't help the situation. I had one of those confrontations with death, also, though it happened before I took the AC. My roommate talked of committing suicide and when I found him he was already dead. I felt guilt and shame for years for not  trying to  muster the believing to raise him from the dead.  I can't erase the pain it caused me then, but I can live my life now without guilt about it.

What a horrible thing to have experienced Waysider.  It sounds like you were in twi when this happened because you wrote about feeling guilty over not trying to raise your roommate from the dead.  You also mentioned about not having the believing to do so which sounds like twi's teaching of the law of believing. 

We believed in such spiritual abilities as taught by twi, but how many were actually performed by vpw or lcm?  Did we even think to wonder about that, or were we too caught up in our own personal call to do them?   

As you know, I have come to accept that the bible, OT and NT, was written by men, possibly for political reasons (not completely sure of this).  So I'm curious to know why the four gospel writers included the miracles that the person named Jesus did like walking on water (along with Peter doing so too), feeding over 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, raising the dead, etc. if the truth was they never happened.  Was it to make the miracles of this son of a god greater than the works claimed to have been done by other gods believed in at the time?

Perhaps John hints at this in chapter 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

All the earlier gospels recorded Jesus healing the blind, but only in John, which was the last gospel written, was there this record of healing a man born blind.

[waysider]

 Thomas Jefferson (yeah, THAT one) did a cut and paste of the gospels that eliminated supernatural references, including the resurrection. This is not surprising, as he was a bit of what we might call a deist.

[Charity]

27 minutes ago, waysider said:

 Thomas Jefferson (yeah, THAT one) did a cut and paste of the gospels that eliminated supernatural references, including the resurrection. This is not surprising, as he was a bit of what we might call a deist.

Deism from the Latin term deus, meaning "god") is the philosophical position and rationalistic theology that generally rejects revelation as a source of divine knowledge and asserts that empirical reason and observation of the natural world are exclusively logical, reliable, and sufficient to determine the existence of a Supreme Being as the creator of the universe. More simply stated, Deism is the belief in the existence of God (often, but not necessarily, a God who does not intervene in the universe after creating it), solely based on rational thought without any reliance on revealed religions or religious authority. Deism emphasizes the concept of natural theology—that is, God's existence is revealed through nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Any thoughts on this?

[oldiesman]

39 minutes ago, Charity said:

Deism from the Latin term deus, meaning "god") is the philosophical position and rationalistic theology that generally rejects revelation as a source of divine knowledge and asserts that empirical reason and observation of the natural world are exclusively logical, reliable, and sufficient to determine the existence of a Supreme Being as the creator of the universe. More simply stated, Deism is the belief in the existence of God (often, but not necessarily, a God who does not intervene in the universe after creating it), solely based on rational thought without any reliance on revealed religions or religious authority. Deism emphasizes the concept of natural theology—that is, God's existence is revealed through nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Any thoughts on this?

Yes.   I agree with Raf in the sense that it's better to not believe in God at all then believe in a god that is absent and does not care.

On the founders, I have a book called "In God We Trust: the Religious Beliefs and Ideals of the Founding Fathers: Cousins, Norman: 9780764709562: Amazon.com: Books" that gives many quotes and illustrates that some "deists" may not be the deists some think.

[chockfull]

3 hours ago, Charity said:

Deism from the Latin term deus, meaning "god") is the philosophical position and rationalistic theology that generally rejects revelation as a source of divine knowledge and asserts that empirical reason and observation of the natural world are exclusively logical, reliable, and sufficient to determine the existence of a Supreme Being as the creator of the universe. More simply stated, Deism is the belief in the existence of God (often, but not necessarily, a God who does not intervene in the universe after creating it), solely based on rational thought without any reliance on revealed religions or religious authority. Deism emphasizes the concept of natural theology—that is, God's existence is revealed through nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Any thoughts on this?

Yes although yet another label there seems to certainly be some level of restraint that a Creator has in day to day intervention.  

Is it a big bang then see you approach?  

Is it a God talks to me every day cheering me up writing patterns in my cornflakes approach?

I see that as the two extremes of possibility and reality likely lies between the two.

I think the battle of Armageddon is supposed to be an arena where there is no restraint to the spiritual realm but an all out battle.

Until then there is a restraint on both sides.  So there is no justice in this world and bad things happen to good people.

Whether you believe in a spiritual realm or a Creator or not it appears the same reality is faced regardless of belief.

My thoughts for the .05 worth lol.

[Rocky]

4 hours ago, Charity said:

As you know, I have come to accept that the bible, OT and NT, was written by men, possibly for political reasons (not completely sure of this). 

While I am all about curiosity and continuous learning, sometimes we have to accept uncertainty. 

[waysider]

23 minutes ago, Rocky said:

sometimes we have to accept uncertainty. 

Are you sure about that?

[Nathan_Jr]

6 hours ago, waysider said:

I've never in my life experienced a more intense feeling of depression and hopelessness than I did those 2 weeks at the AC. Hearing about suicide supposedly being caused by a devil spirit certainly didn't help the situation. I had one of those confrontations with death, also, though it happened before I took the AC. My roommate had talked of committing suicide.  When I found him he was already dead. I felt guilt and shame for years for not trying to muster the believing to raise him from the dead.  I can't erase the pain it caused me then, but I can live my life now without feeling guilt about it.

Damn, this rocks me every time. I know you've mentioned this before, but I can't remember if your roommate was in FL with you.

[waysider]

3 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Damn, this rocks me every time. I know you've mentioned this before, but I can't remember if your roommate was in FL with you.

This event took place about 6 months after I took the foundational class. (He was an "unbeliever" I had grown up with.) I took the AC about a year later and left for FellowLaborers about 3 years after that. The "what if?" feeling haunted me for a long time.

[Charity]

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

While I am all about curiosity and continuous learning, sometimes we have to accept uncertainty. 

Your statement is true in the sense that no one is all-knowing, so there are many uncertainties in life.  But in Christianity, this is not allowed.  God expects (actually demands) believers to have absolute certainty in him and in the "word" he has given them (Heb 11:6, James 1:5-6).  IMO, this puts believers between a rock and a hard place - not a healthy place to be in.  

Now why would an all-loving God want to do this to his children? 

[Charity]

45 minutes ago, waysider said:

This event took place about 6 months after I took the foundational class. (He was an "unbeliever" I had grown up with.) I took the AC about a year later and left for FellowLaborers about 3 years after that. The "what if?" feeling haunted me for a long time.

I think people always feel guilty when a loved one or someone close to them commits suicide - but to have to carry the additional guilt because of spiritual lies you were taught at the AC shows in my opinion how harmful religion is.

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, waysider said:

Are you sure about that?

sometimes. 

[Rocky]

13 minutes ago, Charity said:

Your statement is true in the sense that no one is all-knowing, so there are many uncertainties in life.  But in Christianity, this is not allowed.  God expects (actually demands) believers to have absolute certainty in him and in the "word" he has given them (Heb 11:6, James 1:5-6).  IMO, this puts believers between a rock and a hard place - not a healthy place to be in.  

Now why would an all-loving God want to do this to his children? 

How do we even know that's actually what God intended to "demand" or commend, or even expect? 

Hebrews 11:6 NIV

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I don't see that demand in the verse above.

James 1: 5-6

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

Okay, I see it in the James 1 reference. 

I wonder, however, about that. Wisdom well... I doubt that people become wise that way.

 

Edited May 3 by Rocky

[Charity]

3 hours ago, Rocky said:

How do we even know that's actually what God intended to "demand" or commend, or even expect? 

Hebrews 11:6 NIV

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I don't see that demand in the verse above.

 

 Hebrews 11:6 NIV

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I underlined the words which I believe shows that God expects believers to have absolute certainty in him and in the "word" he has given them. 

It doesn't matter whether we agree on what this verse is saying.  The point of my post was to show the dilemma that bible-believing Christians find themselves in when it comes to God.  Unless there is a verse that proves differently, there is no room for uncertainty when it comes to him. 

Being between a rock and a hard place happens because even when a Christian is certain that God exists and therefore earnestly seeks this all-powerful and all-loving God in a time of need, it is never certain that he will show up and reward you for the trust you placed in him.  (Apparently there are legal loopholes attached to his promises.)  In other words, God expects certainty from believers when all the while, he is an uncertain God. 

It's one of the main reason why I think this concept of god as shown in the bible was thought up by men for whatever reason. 

Here's to peace (an alternative for beer in my case)

Edited May 3 by Charity

[chockfull]

15 hours ago, Charity said:

Your statement is true in the sense that no one is all-knowing, so there are many uncertainties in life.  But in Christianity, this is not allowed.  God expects (actually demands) believers to have absolute certainty in him and in the "word" he has given them (Heb 11:6, James 1:5-6).  IMO, this puts believers between a rock and a hard place - not a healthy place to be in.  

Now why would an all-loving God want to do this to his children? 

I don’t read that at all in those verses.

Hebrews 11:6 - I mean is this just common logic ?  If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?

James 1:5-6 ask God for wisdom

If you don’t believe in a God why would you ever ask Him for wisdom?  Again rocket science 101.

And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements shows an unloving God?

I disagree.  I read it those verses as simple logical statements with logical conclusions.

What rock and what hard place is it that you find yourself in either way?

Want some more rocket science 101?

If you  never read the Bible you won’t understand the Bible.

If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.

But a fundamentalist, hand in a glove absolutist?  Yeah that’s what wrecks the Bible and any inspirational truth.  And places believers in bondage.  And drives them away completely.

Goodbye baby.  Goodbye bathwater.

Adults and showers only now!

I am gonna back out of this channel now and let you all continue.  
 

 

[Charity]

4 hours ago, chockfull said:

I don’t read that at all in those verses.

Hebrews 11:6 - I mean is this just common logic ?  If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?

Look deeper: the verse is about more than just believing God exists.  You must believe who this God is.  He IS a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 

- vs 4-7 is a list of how God rewarded people because they had pleased him, meaning they obeyed him.  That is who this God that we believe exists is.  He is also the God that cursed and killed those who did not obey him?  It's written throughout the OT and is foretold to happen in Revelation.
 

James 1:5-6 ask God for wisdom

If you don’t believe in a God why would you ever ask Him for wisdom?  Again rocket science 101.

Kind of a snarky remark, don't you think?  You are misinterpreting what I wrote.  What about you Chockfull - has God always given you wisdom when you asked?  After asking, have you always heard that still small voice to guide you through a confusing, difficult time?  If not, why do you think that was?  If God always has, why do you think that was?

And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements shows an unloving God?

For many years, I did believe he was a loving God and that all the problems in the world were because of those who were rejecting God, believing wrong doctrine, or not trusting him enough, all of which tied his hands behind his back and allowed Satan to cause havoc.  I no longer believe in a loving God if Genesis 2 & 3 are true and if they're not, then why believe anything written afterward about Lucifer becoming the god of this world and about how wicked mankind became and that a promised messiah was necessary to save us from our wickedness.

What rock and what hard place is it that you find yourself in either way?

I explained it in my post, whether you accept it or not is your choice.  Question:  how many people were between a rock and a hard place because of the law of believing?  The evil of that doctrine was how it focused on one's ability to believe which lead to feelings of guilt.  Trusting God, however, is right because the focus is now on how faithful and powerful God is so we are free from feelings of guilt.  It's all in God's hands now.  Well, God's hands are still tied if we aren't trusting him enough (meaning without having any doubt).

Want some more rocket science 101?

If you  never read the Bible you won’t understand the Bible.

If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.

My post was about bible-believing Christians so your two statements above are irrelevant.

But a fundamentalist, hand in a glove absolutist?  Yeah that’s what wrecks the Bible and any inspirational truth.  And places believers in bondage.  And drives them away completely.

Fundamentalist is a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture.  Do you take Eph 3:20 literally? Or the rapture, great tribulation, Armageddon, the final judgment and the lake of fire? Who decides what's literal or not and what are their decisions based on?

 

 

Edited May 3 by Charity
Change a name added in error.