I did mention some promises written to the body of Christ in 1 John 3:21-23 and 1 John 5:14-15.
I see and have no reason to think that anything written in 1John is intended for the body of Christ, which no one aside from Paul ever speaks of, or refers to.
Of course God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us...
but that is no clear or certain promise that there there is anything that we can think or say that will bring it to pass.
12 hours ago, Charity said:
The “regardless part” is not part of these 2 verses, but it is something that Christians seem to add to cover for when our requests are not answered.
Well, I strongly disagree. I believe that it's an integral part of understanding the difference between what was given and promised to Israel, and what was been done for us in Christ. The gospel of the Kingdom was given to Israel. The gospel of grace was given to us. And there are differences between the two. Even with many signs, miracles and wonders, Israel (as a nation) failed to believe and accept that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the Living God. We, on the other hand, believe that God raised Christ from the dead... in complete and total contradiction to anything and everything that can be known by our five senses. How or why did we do that? Perhaps only because of a recognition and acceptance of the fact that all men (or most notably, our own selves) have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God... and that we needed a savior. So we, in our heart, knew and understood that it was the only way... and believed the impossible.
There's a simplicity in Christ that should never be lost or complicated in or with any of the great many things that have been said or written to or for Israel...
According to Genesis 1-3, God creates a paradise and many different kinds of awesome life and everything is perfect.
Do you likewise think that serpent is perfect? Or when and how is it that fallen creature excluded?
And if everything is perfect... why do you suppose God gave instructions to the man to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
Did evil already exist at the time of this instruction... or didn't it?
Can this be explained?
Do you likewise think that serpent is perfect? Or when and how is it that fallen creature excluded?
And if everything is perfect... why do you suppose God gave instructions to the man to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
Did evil already exist at the time of this instruction... or didn't it?
Can this be explained?"andthat we neededasavior"
Saved from what?
"Doyou likewise think that serpent is perfect? Or when and how is it that fallen creature excluded? And if everything is perfect... why do you suppose God gave instructions to the man to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Did evil already exist at the time of this instruction... or didn't it? Can this be explained?"
Good questions, but presumptive. It's a different author, a different god, a different creation myth. In the first creation story, chapter one, El saw that ALL he made was very good - ALL without exception or distinction, whichever you prefer.
It's just that the horrendous acts of God's wrath in the O.T. and the wrath of God that Jesus spoke of in the Gospels and revealed to John in Revelation are so different from the grace and salvation from God's wrath that Paul writes about in his epistles. However, despite what Bullinger and Wierwille taught about focusing on what is written to us, it does not change the truth that in the Bible disobeying God is a very frightening thing.
Horrendous. Yes, indeed.
I'm not a Jew. I'm not subject the wrath of the Jewish god. (Nor are they.) Nor will I be manipulated by a Pharisee like Paul that simply beleeeving what he says will save me from the horrendous acts of the god of Abram.
My mother is a devout Christian. She walks with tremendous peace, compassion, grace and power. I've witnessed her receive countless healings and revelations. She is not a proseltizer/evangelizer. She is not a fundamentalist inerrantist. She knows God isn't in the publishing business and didn't write the books of the Bible. Genesis chapter one is foundational to her theology/philosophy. Chapter 2 on, not so much.
My mother is a devout Christian. She walks with tremendous peace, compassion, grace and power. I've witnessed her receive countless healings and revelations. She is not a proseltizer/evangelizer. She is not a fundamentalist inerrantist. She knows God isn't in the publishing business and didn't write the books of the Bible. Genesis chapter one is foundational to her theology/philosophy. Chapter 2 on, not so much.
It sounds like she's not burdened down with the issue of "sin" or striving to believe enough to please God. That would make a difference. I find it hard for her to be like this though if she goes to a church. Does she?
It sounds like she's not burdened down with the issue of "sin" or striving to believe enough to please God. That would make a difference. I find it hard for her to be like this though if she goes to a church. Does she?
She's not at all burdened by sin. Church? Not really. I'm sure she would be considered a heretic or something like that by some here. She doesn't talk about her faith unless asked, even then, sparingly. She doesn't evangelize. She doesn't talk about or judge others’ religious beliefs, even when she disagrees. She sees it all as very personal and private.
She has two best friends since childhood. She talks to them daily. Amazing love and loyalty among them. One is Methodist, the other Episcopalian.
One of the great things about life post-twi is the options to look at different points of view, consider them in a healthy fashion, and form an opinion rather than have one handed to you.
There's a number of thoughts on different positions with this, and many of them, IMHO, take cheap shots at opposing points of view. I'm not going to pronounce the absolute truth on the matter, but I feel free to outline the major positions and why they're held.
I admit that one of the hardest thing for me to let go of from twi is that there is only one "truth" which meant you are right and everyone else is wrong. This is why I appreciate what you wrote above about having opinions. One definition of opinion is "a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence." The same website defines belief as "Unlike an opinion, a belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values."
If belief is a personal conviction one holds about an issue, does it then become an opinion when discussing the issue with others who think differently?
She's not at all burdened by sin. Church? Not really. I'm sure she would be considered a heretic or something like that by some here. She doesn't talk about her faith unless asked, even then, sparingly. She doesn't evangelize. She doesn't talk about or judge others’ religious beliefs, even when she disagrees. She sees it all as very personal and private.
She has two best friends since childhood. She talks to them daily. Amazing love and loyalty among them. One is Methodist, the other Episcopalian.
I find this all so amazing. I hope you don't mind if I ask another question. Has she shared with you whether she believes in heaven or hell? Witnessing was such an obligation in twi, although I don't think it was ever called evangelism. The focus was on moving the word over the world via selling the class to people, not on God's commandment to go out and make disciples (i.e., the great commission of Matt 28:19-10). Feeling the need to get those you care for to accept Christ and be born again can be very stressful when they are not interested in doing so. Your mother seems free from the anxiety that burden brings.
I never believed a Christian like your mother could ever exist, but as I walk away from more of the teachings of the Bible, I can see now how it's possible.
No. I don’t think she is striving to believe anything. I don’t think she sees God as being displeased.
Again, for her, it goes back to Genesis chapter 1 as foundational. God saw everything that he had made. And it was very good.
Again, I find this fascinating because when I began to deconvert, I did not want to give up on the idea that the world was created by a powerful being leaving evolution as the only other option. The beauty of nature and the incredible way our bodies work and the order of the universe are all realities I marvel at - thinking that it all evolved on its own seems too incredulous. (I admit though, I have not studied the theory of evolution.)
Has she shared with you whether she believes in heaven or hell?
I know she doesn’t believe in hell. Not sure what she thinks about heaven other than she doesn’t see it as a geographical destination. I know she believes life is eternal and death is powerless and Christ Jesus proved it.
11 minutes ago, Charity said:
Witnessing was such an obligation in twi, although I don't think it was ever called evangelism. The focus was on moving the word over the world via selling the class to people, not on God's commandment to go out and make disciples (i.e., the great commission of Matt 28:19-10). Feeling the need to get those you care for to accept Christ and be born again
She doesn’t feel obligated to witness. Maybe she sees her life as a witness. I don't think she believes she can make anyone see what she sees. Again, she sees it as a personal journey for each and everyone. But she’s a universalist, so she believes everyone, eventually, will come to the truth.
I thought Matthew was Old Testament written TO the Jews, according to TWI. How could the Great Commission apply to anyone other than the eleven disciples, who were dirty Judeans, according to TWI?
I know she doesn’t believe in hell. Not sure what she thinks about heaven other than she doesn’t see it as a geographical destination. I know she believes life is eternal and death is powerless and Christ Jesus proved it.
She doesn’t feel obligated to witness. Maybe she sees her life as a witness. I don't think she believes she can make anyone see what she sees. Again, she sees it as a personal journey for each and everyone. But she’s a universalist, so she believes everyone, eventually, will come to the truth.
I thought Matthew was Old Testament written TO the Jews, according to TWI. How could the Great Commission apply to anyone other than the eleven disciples, who were dirty Judeans, according to TWI?
There’s probably a glove for that.
Since following the exposure of clergy abuse and sexual abuse in the International House of Prayer Kansas City, I have discovered how important the great commission is to many protestant churches, especially the evangelical ones.
Again, I find this fascinating because when I began to deconvert, I did not want to give up on the idea that the world was created by a powerful being leaving evolution as the only other option. The beauty of nature and the incredible way our bodies work and the order of the universe are all realities I marvel at - thinking that it all evolved on its own seems too incredulous. (I admit though, I have not studied the theory of evolution.)
Thanks Nathan for sharing about your mother.
You might read WordWolf’s excellent treatment of Genesis 1 in the Doctrinal forum.
I may have misunderstood him or didn’t read it carefully the first time, but my takeaway is that evolution is not incompatible with creationism.
Without getting into Bible verses, the violence in the Old Testament (“crimes” for which God prescribes the death penalty, God’s anger and wrath in punishing his people, and God’s command to the Israelites to commit genocide), as well as God’s need for Christ to suffer and be crucified to save us from the sin He made to pass unto all mankind, and the concept of the lake of fire (whatever that is) in Revelation are so way over the top, I don’t want to believe any of it is true.
Since the first 2 have already happened, that leaves the final one to have to consider. The fact that so many Christians justify God’s judgments in Revelation and therefore are intent on scaring people into accepting Christ to avoid these judgments is disturbing in and of itself. Plus, I’m hearing more and more that “once saved, always saved” is a false doctrine which means even more people will be added to the lake of fire.
Is the moral objection to the terror depicted in the great tribulation as well as the final judgments enough to say Revelation had to have been conceived by men and not inspired by God?
The first thing mentioned in the "Is Christianity a Slave Mentality" video above is the fear of death. Like he shares, this is one of the last string that keeps me wanting to hang on to Christianity
Not interested in the video, but interested in sharing my thoughts on any questions you have about your journey. For instance, I would caution very much against allowing your faith to be undermined by whatever challenges your children or grandchildren are facing. My journey from faith coincided with the autism diagnosis of my son and the illness and death of my sister from ALS. To this day I struggle to explain to people that the coincidence of timing was just that, a coincidence. They think I'm angry at God for allowing my son to have autism or my sister to die. The truth is my rejection of faith had a lot more to do with the paucity of evidence for the claims of and about the first century church.
Gonna stop here because I see a lot of posts have gone up since I started replying to the thread, so let me read them before I answer.
But you are far from alone, Charity. I've walked this walk. Happy to discuss.
There are two creation myths in the Bible: Genesis 1–2:3; Genesis 2:3–… Inerrantists do not or will not see it. And that’s just fine. But it’s not hard to see.
The language and style are different. The gods are different - El and Yahweh El. The first describes a perfect creation, the second describes a carnal, corrupted creation.
I like this- and (without proof) I think that the first account is far more ancient than Moses.. I keep looking for something in this ancient account. I think that we have absolutely no idea that which it is describing.. it's like a translation of an Ancient math or science book that the translator had no clue or understanding of that which it described..
Not interested in the video, but interested in sharing my thoughts on any questions you have about your journey. For instance, I would caution very much against allowing your faith to be undermined by whatever challenges your children or grandchildren are facing. My journey from faith coincided with the autism diagnosis of my son and the illness and death of my sister from ALS. To this day I struggle to explain to people that the coincidence of timing was just that, a coincidence. They think I'm angry at God for allowing my son to have autism or my sister to die. The truth is my rejection of faith had a lot more to do with the paucity of evidence for the claims of and about the first century church.
Gonna stop here because I see a lot of posts have gone up since I started replying to the thread, so let me read them before I answer.
But you are far from alone, Charity. I've walked this walk. Happy to discuss.
Thanks Raf. Two events were happening at the same time that caused me to look into the Bible's reliability and validity. My grandson's health issues which were getting worse didn't make me angry - I was more hurt and definitely wondering how does God answer prayers. Plus, the recent solar eclipse with all the "prophesies" and warnings about the end times attached to it made me seriously question the wrath of God shown in the Bible.
So, I began watching some videos by Bart Ehrman about problems in the text which included Paul's writings, as well as MindShift which dealt more with the negative characteristics of God shown in the Bible. With the former, I had problems with some of what he said and with the latter, it's clear that believers/apologists have answers to justify everything God or Jesus did. I also began reading threads on this particular forum, and I remember one where you shared about the history of what was known about Jesus in the first century. I want to go back and read through it again.
I'm sure it took time from beginning to end where you were became certain about things. How did you handle the "what-if-I'm-wrong" worries during that time, if you had any?
Yeah just as we will surely die, we will be made alive. Not everyone at the same time though, as has been taught. After death we will be made alive. Each as each one comes.
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waysider
Yeah, see. That kinda leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We were either following the teachings of a man with devil spirits or he was wrong about what he taught. That means he could have been
Raf
I consider myself humanist as well. Since there is no hierarchy in humanism, no one really gets to define it. This website gathers various definitions that permit us to ascertain some kind of co
Nathan_Jr
I don't know if they accept the science or not, but I suspect it doesn't matter to them either way because of the new earth. If anything, I could see them pointing to climate change as evidence of the
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Charity
You're right - it's the first game of hide and seek ever played.
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TLC
I see and have no reason to think that anything written in 1John is intended for the body of Christ, which no one aside from Paul ever speaks of, or refers to.
Of course God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us...
but that is no clear or certain promise that there there is anything that we can think or say that will bring it to pass.
Well, I strongly disagree. I believe that it's an integral part of understanding the difference between what was given and promised to Israel, and what was been done for us in Christ. The gospel of the Kingdom was given to Israel. The gospel of grace was given to us. And there are differences between the two. Even with many signs, miracles and wonders, Israel (as a nation) failed to believe and accept that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the Living God. We, on the other hand, believe that God raised Christ from the dead... in complete and total contradiction to anything and everything that can be known by our five senses. How or why did we do that? Perhaps only because of a recognition and acceptance of the fact that all men (or most notably, our own selves) have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God... and that we needed a savior. So we, in our heart, knew and understood that it was the only way... and believed the impossible.
There's a simplicity in Christ that should never be lost or complicated in or with any of the great many things that have been said or written to or for Israel...
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TLC
Do you likewise think that serpent is perfect? Or when and how is it that fallen creature excluded?
And if everything is perfect... why do you suppose God gave instructions to the man to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
Did evil already exist at the time of this instruction... or didn't it?
Can this be explained?
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Nathan_Jr
Do you likewise think that serpent is perfect? Or when and how is it that fallen creature excluded?
And if everything is perfect... why do you suppose God gave instructions to the man to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
Did evil already exist at the time of this instruction... or didn't it?
Can this be explained?"and that we needed a savior"
Saved from what?
"Do you likewise think that serpent is perfect? Or when and how is it that fallen creature excluded?
And if everything is perfect... why do you suppose God gave instructions to the man to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
Did evil already exist at the time of this instruction... or didn't it?
Can this be explained?"
Good questions, but presumptive. It's a different author, a different god, a different creation myth. In the first creation story, chapter one, El saw that ALL he made was very good - ALL without exception or distinction, whichever you prefer.
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Nathan_Jr
Horrendous. Yes, indeed.
I'm not a Jew. I'm not subject the wrath of the Jewish god. (Nor are they.) Nor will I be manipulated by a Pharisee like Paul that simply beleeeving what he says will save me from the horrendous acts of the god of Abram.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Nathan_Jr
My mother is a devout Christian. She walks with tremendous peace, compassion, grace and power. I've witnessed her receive countless healings and revelations. She is not a proseltizer/evangelizer. She is not a fundamentalist inerrantist. She knows God isn't in the publishing business and didn't write the books of the Bible. Genesis chapter one is foundational to her theology/philosophy. Chapter 2 on, not so much.
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Charity
It sounds like she's not burdened down with the issue of "sin" or striving to believe enough to please God. That would make a difference. I find it hard for her to be like this though if she goes to a church. Does she?
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Nathan_Jr
She's not at all burdened by sin. Church? Not really. I'm sure she would be considered a heretic or something like that by some here. She doesn't talk about her faith unless asked, even then, sparingly. She doesn't evangelize. She doesn't talk about or judge others’ religious beliefs, even when she disagrees. She sees it all as very personal and private.
She has two best friends since childhood. She talks to them daily. Amazing love and loyalty among them. One is Methodist, the other Episcopalian.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Charity
I admit that one of the hardest thing for me to let go of from twi is that there is only one "truth" which meant you are right and everyone else is wrong. This is why I appreciate what you wrote above about having opinions. One definition of opinion is "a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence." The same website defines belief as "Unlike an opinion, a belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values."
If belief is a personal conviction one holds about an issue, does it then become an opinion when discussing the issue with others who think differently?
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Charity
I find this all so amazing. I hope you don't mind if I ask another question. Has she shared with you whether she believes in heaven or hell? Witnessing was such an obligation in twi, although I don't think it was ever called evangelism. The focus was on moving the word over the world via selling the class to people, not on God's commandment to go out and make disciples (i.e., the great commission of Matt 28:19-10). Feeling the need to get those you care for to accept Christ and be born again can be very stressful when they are not interested in doing so. Your mother seems free from the anxiety that burden brings.
I never believed a Christian like your mother could ever exist, but as I walk away from more of the teachings of the Bible, I can see now how it's possible.
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Nathan_Jr
I missed this part.
No. I don’t think she is striving to believe anything. I don’t think she sees God as being displeased.
Again, for her, it goes back to Genesis chapter 1 as foundational. God saw everything that he had made. And it was very good.
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Charity
Again, I find this fascinating because when I began to deconvert, I did not want to give up on the idea that the world was created by a powerful being leaving evolution as the only other option. The beauty of nature and the incredible way our bodies work and the order of the universe are all realities I marvel at - thinking that it all evolved on its own seems too incredulous. (I admit though, I have not studied the theory of evolution.)
Thanks Nathan for sharing about your mother.
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Nathan_Jr
I know she doesn’t believe in hell. Not sure what she thinks about heaven other than she doesn’t see it as a geographical destination. I know she believes life is eternal and death is powerless and Christ Jesus proved it.
She doesn’t feel obligated to witness. Maybe she sees her life as a witness. I don't think she believes she can make anyone see what she sees. Again, she sees it as a personal journey for each and everyone. But she’s a universalist, so she believes everyone, eventually, will come to the truth.
I thought Matthew was Old Testament written TO the Jews, according to TWI. How could the Great Commission apply to anyone other than the eleven disciples, who were dirty Judeans, according to TWI?
There’s probably a glove for that.
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Charity
Since following the exposure of clergy abuse and sexual abuse in the International House of Prayer Kansas City, I have discovered how important the great commission is to many protestant churches, especially the evangelical ones.
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Nathan_Jr
You might read WordWolf’s excellent treatment of Genesis 1 in the Doctrinal forum.
I may have misunderstood him or didn’t read it carefully the first time, but my takeaway is that evolution is not incompatible with creationism.
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Charity
Without getting into Bible verses, the violence in the Old Testament (“crimes” for which God prescribes the death penalty, God’s anger and wrath in punishing his people, and God’s command to the Israelites to commit genocide), as well as God’s need for Christ to suffer and be crucified to save us from the sin He made to pass unto all mankind, and the concept of the lake of fire (whatever that is) in Revelation are so way over the top, I don’t want to believe any of it is true.
Since the first 2 have already happened, that leaves the final one to have to consider. The fact that so many Christians justify God’s judgments in Revelation and therefore are intent on scaring people into accepting Christ to avoid these judgments is disturbing in and of itself. Plus, I’m hearing more and more that “once saved, always saved” is a false doctrine which means even more people will be added to the lake of fire.
Is the moral objection to the terror depicted in the great tribulation as well as the final judgments enough to say Revelation had to have been conceived by men and not inspired by God?
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Raf
Not interested in the video, but interested in sharing my thoughts on any questions you have about your journey. For instance, I would caution very much against allowing your faith to be undermined by whatever challenges your children or grandchildren are facing. My journey from faith coincided with the autism diagnosis of my son and the illness and death of my sister from ALS. To this day I struggle to explain to people that the coincidence of timing was just that, a coincidence. They think I'm angry at God for allowing my son to have autism or my sister to die. The truth is my rejection of faith had a lot more to do with the paucity of evidence for the claims of and about the first century church.
Gonna stop here because I see a lot of posts have gone up since I started replying to the thread, so let me read them before I answer.
But you are far from alone, Charity. I've walked this walk. Happy to discuss.
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cman
this is why all that administration crap has to die along with a bunch of other "logic"
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Ham
I like this- and (without proof) I think that the first account is far more ancient than Moses.. I keep looking for something in this ancient account. I think that we have absolutely no idea that which it is describing.. it's like a translation of an Ancient math or science book that the translator had no clue or understanding of that which it described..
All personal opinion or interpretation of course.
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cman
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
I'm not really shouting, couldn't adjust the font thingy
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Charity
I used to love that verse.
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Charity
Thanks Raf. Two events were happening at the same time that caused me to look into the Bible's reliability and validity. My grandson's health issues which were getting worse didn't make me angry - I was more hurt and definitely wondering how does God answer prayers. Plus, the recent solar eclipse with all the "prophesies" and warnings about the end times attached to it made me seriously question the wrath of God shown in the Bible.
So, I began watching some videos by Bart Ehrman about problems in the text which included Paul's writings, as well as MindShift which dealt more with the negative characteristics of God shown in the Bible. With the former, I had problems with some of what he said and with the latter, it's clear that believers/apologists have answers to justify everything God or Jesus did. I also began reading threads on this particular forum, and I remember one where you shared about the history of what was known about Jesus in the first century. I want to go back and read through it again.
I'm sure it took time from beginning to end where you were became certain about things. How did you handle the "what-if-I'm-wrong" worries during that time, if you had any?
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cman
Yeah just as we will surely die, we will be made alive. Not everyone at the same time though, as has been taught. After death we will be made alive. Each as each one comes.
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Nathan_Jr
I look forward to Raf's answer, but I just want to say, what if you're right? Consider letting go of this sinister, manipulative dilemma.
This is possible: The freedom, the liberty, to look clearly at anything, unencumbered by forgone conclusions and beleefs.
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