The first thing mentioned in the "Is Christianity a Slave Mentality" video above is the fear of death. Like he shares, this is one of the last string that keeps me wanting to hang on to Christianity - is this life all we have (which Paul says we are then to be most pitied),or is there truly a promise of eternal life as explained in the Bible (especially one where my grandson will be given a healthy mind and body)? But if there is no God, then there is no promised afterlife as we have come to expect it. And if that's true, then a huge mind shift is required to see how living with this reality means we are to live our lives to the fullest while we can (within the requirements of human laws and with a care for helping our fellow man if one wishes).
If based on the accepted belief that there is no God, then does valuing even more the one life we have now all that awful? And what about the pain and suffering that does happen in this one life - how are we to see it when there is no relief to look forward to in heaven? I can see why God's promises are so important but only if one trusts the words of the Bible.
maybe what you have been told is Christianity is not Christian at all
perhaps reviewing other thinking is in order
Hi Cman, I like many others, had to deconstruct from the wrong doctrine of twi after being involved for 11 years. Now, I'm wondering which of the following is not what we as Christians are to believe. In the Old Testament, the goodness of God towards His own people was mostly based on obedience to Him; otherwise, you see them suffer curses, deaths, killings, punishments, etc.
With the gospels, you have Jesus coming again to his own people and saying "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Then, in order to save mankind from sin, God needed him to be tortured and crucified for three hours because that was how God set everything up from the beginning.
The Epistles say we are saved by grace which is groovy for us considering what God did to his people under the law in the OT but not so groovy for those who may be saved during the great tribulation which God will allow to happen. Then, there's the power which we have access to during this period but only if we trust in God and even then, it seems to come down to His prerogative whether it's manifested.
Finally, there is the rapture which while again groovy for us, is not so for those left behind since they shall see "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
After leaving twi, it was necessary to unlearn the lies we were taught in order to become healthier.I think it is true for leaving Christianity as well - it happens when one sees the problems with what the Bible teaches.Is it only a matter of how one looks at things?The following is from the beginning of the video above about the slave mentality of Christianity.It shows a different way of seeing God than what I’ve believed for so long.
INDIVIDUAL ASPECT - Fear of Death: God offers a bargain system, not a free gift but a trade in order to save us from eternal death (or hell) which He decided was the apt penalty for all of us because of Adam's sin. Our end of the bargain is to make Jesus Christ our lord and master.
PSYCHOLOGICAL ASPECT (6:15 in the video) - 5 LINEAR CHARACTERISTICS OF SLAVE MENTALITY (lowering oneself to bring about the desires/needs of someone greater at a great expense to oneself)
i. Obedience: based on being told the Master/God knows what is right; disobedience = personal harm
ii. Submissiveness: lowering oneself; believing we're worthless - we who are “wretched” according to our Master/God are “saved” so we can glorify how great our Master/God is
iii. Dependence: relying on our Master's/God's authority to supply our personal needs, validation, direction or sustenance which reinforces our worthlessness, wretchedness and incompetence to live our lives without Him
iv. Fatalism: The Master's/God’s way is the only way; any other way is bad, therefore we resign ourselves to submission and dependence on the Master/God
v. Fear of autonomy: fear of freedom, personal responsibility or unknown outcomes (e.g., Israelites wanting to return to slavery in Egypt rather than face the reality of their hardships in the wilderness)
A A believing Christian will obviously not see things this way, but for one who is beginning to doubt the truth of the Bible, the above becomes eye-opening.
If based on the accepted belief that there is no God, then does valuing even more the one life we have now all that awful?
No. The whole point is to value this life, to be alive.
19 hours ago, Charity said:
And what about the pain and suffering that does happen in this one life - how are we to see it when there is no relief to look forward to in heaven?
Gracefully. With compassion.
Where is heaven? Above? In the sky? How do you know where or what this heaven is? What will you do there? Show off your rewards? Demonstrate what an obedient slave you are?
Jesus said, “If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.”
And a few related quotes from Henry Miller,
“Every moment is a golden one for him who has the vision to recognize it as such.”
“The moment one gives close attention to any thing, even a blade of grass it becomes a mysterious, awesome, indescribably magnificent world in itself.”
“The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware.”
Hi Cman, I like many others, had to deconstruct from the wrong doctrine of twi after being involved for 11 years. Now, I'm wondering which of the following is not what we as Christians are to believe. In the Old Testament, the goodness of God towards His own people was mostly based on obedience to Him; otherwise, you see them suffer curses, deaths, killings, punishments, etc.
With the gospels, you have Jesus coming again to his own people and saying "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Then, in order to save mankind from sin, God needed him to be tortured and crucified for three hours because that was how God set everything up from the beginning.
The Epistles say we are saved by grace which is groovy for us considering what God did to his people under the law in the OT but not so groovy for those who may be saved during the great tribulation which God will allow to happen. Then, there's the power which we have access to during this period but only if we trust in God and even then, it seems to come down to His prerogative whether it's manifested.
Finally, there is the rapture which while again groovy for us, is not so for those left behind since they shall see "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
Fair observations. When one steps back to take an unfiltered look at it, the absurdity gets pretty gnarly. And, careful, that five-fingered glove won’t fit that twelve-fingered hand.
No. The whole point is to value this life, to be alive.
Gracefully. With compassion.
Where is heaven? Above? In the sky? How do you know where or what this heaven is? What will you do there? Show off your rewards? Demonstrate what an obedient slave you are?
And a few related quotes from Henry Miller,
“Every moment is a golden one for him who has the vision to recognize it as such.”
“The moment one gives close attention to any thing, even a blade of grass it becomes a mysterious, awesome, indescribably magnificent world in itself.”
“The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware.”
Thanks for sharing the above. The quotes and your words of "Gracefully. With compassion" did not describe my life while helping to take care of my grandson and other issues that resulted because of his needs. I was regularly hurt, confused and judging myself as to why things were getting worse and harder for us to deal with at the same time I was praying for God's help. This was like receiving a double whammy.
When I look at the verses on prayers or receiving God's promises, they are a mixed lot. Some have no conditions attached but most do have conditions attached. (I'll probably share more about this later.) Without the agony of wondering what more I have to do for God to answer the least of my prayers, I now can deal with reality in a simpler and calmer way. I still hurt for my grandson but my mind is clearer now and I can problem solve better now.
Prayer is more than just asking God for your needs to be met – I understand that.And I understand how leaving Christianity because one’s prayers for deliverance did not get answered can be seen as acting like a spoiled brat. Yet, if God does not do what he promises to do, then the issue becomes one of trust.Is there really a God as laid out in the Bible?
Many will proclaim that their prayers were answered which is wonderful but what about the others who say their prayers were not. Why the difference if God is not a respecter of persons?
All the verses below (except for one) are promises with conditions attached which are not always specific leaving the door open for loopholes and turning “shalls” into “maybes.”On the other hand, the “shalls” can mean a definite “yes” but only according to God’s hidden timetable which means we wait (and we wait and we wait). However, “shall” never means "shall not," so there is a guarantee in them. (Concerning “trust” as a condition, the law of believing was a nightmarish doctrine of vpw.So is “trust” as used in some verses below any better?)
Finally, unanswered prayers for deliverance seems to always come down to two reasons: the person praying did not meet the conditions or that the deliverance will come but after Christ returns. The former leaves a Christian working to please God, and the latter only matters if there really is going to be a return of Christ. In other words, there is no proof until it actually happens. So this is where my thinking is at now and here are the verses.
Unconditional promise: Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened. (Verse 11 relates this promise to receiving “good things” from God. Luke 11:13 narrows it down to receiving “the Holy Spirit.” Which is it or is it both?)
1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (The context is loving “in deed and in truth.” Is this an "all or nothing" condition?)
1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he hears us: 15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. (Does this mean we are to always know God’s will or are we to attached “not my will but yours be done” at the end of our petitions?)
James 5:16 Confess your faults rs to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain… (What does “effectual fervent” mean? Do we have to be an Elijah to get answer to prayer? Does “righteous” mean one who does right or one who is righteous in Christ?)
Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us (If this is referring to the spirit realm, how many different doctrines are there about how “this power works in us.”Is there an accurate one that proves to work every time?)
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (The condition is trusting – having any uncertainty is not trusting.)
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance (assurance) of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (With both verses in Hebrews, the condition is trusting – having any uncertainty is not trusting.)
When I look at the verses on prayers or receiving God's promises, they are a mixed lot.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of confusion (especially for many of us that were so deeply indoctrinated into the "what you can believe you will receive" teachings of PFAL) as to what - or perhaps I should say, which - of God's promises are specifically given and intended for us, rather that merely being "for our learning." Frankly, it's took far too long a long time for this to have ever begun getting straightened out in my... but after finally hearing it (and seeing it pointed out in scripture) from someone older, much wiser (and far more humble) than myself, it explained and made much more sense of a whole lot of things.
Honestly, there might be no really good or easy place to start, aside from ripping off the band-aid (which will probably take some hair and skin with it.) So, here goes...
What if a lot (i.e., most nearly all) of the promises of God that you have heard and think or suppose are given and meant to be applied and work for you... really aren't addressed to you? I said "what if"... because I know how hard that might be to even consider being a possibility. So let's leave it at that. What if they aren't?
Then... what is? And how does it differ from what we might have thought "was"? Well, that's what we have to find and look at from scripture. But, if you need or will want to have a possible reason why all the other promises aren't, then rather than chase that down some never seeming to end rabbit hole, perhaps you allow me to simply cut to the chase and summarize it in a word or two, and then move on. There are a lot of promises that are written and given specifically to Israel, most of them pertaining to life here on earth, and a great many of them being conditional. Jesus Christ was a minister to the circumcision. (Rom.15:8) Would not then all of what he said and did while he was here on earth be specifically addressed to and intended for those that he ministered to? So to, was all the law and the prophets of old. The Gentiles had neither God, nor the law. (Eph.2:12; Rom.2:14.) So... when did any of this change?
Well, I suppose one might say that it started with the resurrection. However, there appears to be no proof or evidence of it on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, or in much of what transpires for quite some time after that. It really isn't unit after Stephen's testimony before the council and high priest of Israel (Acts 7), their rejection of it, and the subsequent conversion of Saul that anything or anyone outside of Israel enters the picture. This is why some (myself included) believe that the church of today (aka, the body of Christ) first began with the apostle Paul, and not on the day of Pentecost. (For whatever it's worth, I don't see 1Tim.1:15-16 as intending to make Paul as the worst sinner that ever was. Rather I think being "chief" simply names him as being the first in line.) Perhaps it's time to take a much closer look at the prayers or promises that are written in the church epistles, and compare them to what might have been written and intended only for Israel.
Philippians 4: [6] Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
If you can find anything else specifically written to "the body of Christ" (which we are part of) that tells us what God has promised or will or will not do for us in this day and time... well, maybe I haven't seen it. But these verses alone leave little to no doubt that after we take things to God.... and then LEAVE IT WITH HIM.... regardless of whatever does or doesn't subsequently come to pass in this life here on earth, we are told that the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. That's it. Pretty much everything I've come to know and believe about what is and/or isn't promised to us in this day and time. Give it to God, and let it go. That's what Paul did. So that's the example we are given to follow. Paul had no easy life, that's for sure. But... as for what is to come in all of eternity? That's another matter altogether. And whatever happens in this life... I believe God has been, and continues to, prepare us for whatever it is or will be doing for all of eternity.
Eternity...
Have you thought about it?
Israel was (and will always be...?) an earthly people and nation. Recipients of a lot of earthly promises.
How many of the promises that Paul has written of speak of things that are heavenly in nature (and perhaps is yet to come), rather than things which are earthly?
According to Genesis 1-3, God creates a paradise and many different kinds of awesome life and everything is perfect.What a great God He is. Then everything is corrupted because of one single act of two humans (one who was deceived and the other who followed suit).All mankind has now become evil and worthy of death and is therefore in need of redemption.Now there are wars, murders, rapes, natural disasters, genocides, dreadful diseases and disorders of mind and body, hatred, lusts, etc. - SO MUCH pain and suffering century after century which God knew would happen because of Adam and Eve's disobedience.Why was such a cruel and severe punishment so necessary?
All of this is explained away by saying “a loving God gave Adam and Eve free will,” so everything is their fault – not God’s.I now call that statement into question because God was GOD and so much GREATER than them:
- God was incapable of doing evil, but Adam and Eve were created capable of doing evil.
- God had foreknowledge of all that would happen if sin entered the world, but Adam and Eve were only told of “their death.”
Who was in a greater and more powerful position to have the responsibility of the whole world placed on their shoulders – God or Adam and Eve?Yet God placed it on humans.I used to think this was how highly God thought of the perfect man He created, and they just went and blew it.Now, I’m thinking they were doomed from the beginning to fail.
There are two creation myths in the Bible: Genesis 1–2:3; Genesis 2:3–… Inerrantists do not or will not see it. And that’s just fine. But it’s not hard to see.
The language and style are different. The gods are different - El and Yahweh El. The first describes a perfect creation, the second describes a carnal, corrupted creation.
Interesting take on the tribal aspect of what has been given, even to old Adam and Eve. Who actually had a direct relationship with God and the Serpent.
Comes down to what we do with each of our gifts. We all have them.
Gen 3:10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11And he said, Who told thee that thou was naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou should not eat?
Did God really not know what had happened until Adam told him?Did God not know the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve?Did he not foreknow that the serpent would try to tempt Eve? According to Paul, 4 thousand years later, God knew about Christ’s redeeming blood and that we’d be chosen of him before the foundation of the world. So why was Genesis 3:10 written this way?
Another thing, did God even warn Adam and Eve about Satan and how crafty, subtle and evil he was? There is no record of him doing so.So Eve is deceived by the serpent and decides to eat of the fruit giving it also to Adam who believing Eve (or for some other unstated reason), decides to eat as well. Could there have been a different outcome if Eve knew she was talking to a great deceiver?
This is why I believe this record in Genesis is a story made up by man to explain why there was such evil in the world.How could a truly all-knowing and perfectly loving God have been so asleep at the wheel as well as so punitive to have let this all play out as it did?
The wrath of God is something to consider as well.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of confusion (especially for many of us that were so deeply indoctrinated into the "what you can believe you will receive" teachings of PFAL) as to what - or perhaps I should say, which - of God's promises are specifically given and intended for us, rather that merely being "for our learning." Frankly, it's took far too long a long time for this to have ever begun getting straightened out in my... but after finally hearing it (and seeing it pointed out in scripture) from someone older, much wiser (and far more humble) than myself, it explained and made much more sense of a whole lot of things.
Honestly, there might be no really good or easy place to start, aside from ripping off the band-aid (which will probably take some hair and skin with it.) So, here goes...
What if a lot (i.e., most nearly all) of the promises of God that you have heard and think or suppose are given and meant to be applied and work for you... really aren't addressed to you? I said "what if"... because I know how hard that might be to even consider being a possibility. So let's leave it at that. What if they aren't?
Then... what is? And how does it differ from what we might have thought "was"? Well, that's what we have to find and look at from scripture. But, if you need or will want to have a possible reason why all the other promises aren't, then rather than chase that down some never seeming to end rabbit hole, perhaps you allow me to simply cut to the chase and summarize it in a word or two, and then move on. There are a lot of promises that are written and given specifically to Israel, most of them pertaining to life here on earth, and a great many of them being conditional. Jesus Christ was a minister to the circumcision. (Rom.15:8) Would not then all of what he said and did while he was here on earth be specifically addressed to and intended for those that he ministered to? So to, was all the law and the prophets of old. The Gentiles had neither God, nor the law. (Eph.2:12; Rom.2:14.) So... when did any of this change?
Well, I suppose one might say that it started with the resurrection. However, there appears to be no proof or evidence of it on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, or in much of what transpires for quite some time after that. It really isn't unit after Stephen's testimony before the council and high priest of Israel (Acts 7), their rejection of it, and the subsequent conversion of Saul that anything or anyone outside of Israel enters the picture. This is why some (myself included) believe that the church of today (aka, the body of Christ) first began with the apostle Paul, and not on the day of Pentecost. (For whatever it's worth, I don't see 1Tim.1:15-16 as intending to make Paul as the worst sinner that ever was. Rather I think being "chief" simply names him as being the first in line.) Perhaps it's time to take a much closer look at the prayers or promises that are written in the church epistles, and compare them to what might have been written and intended only for Israel.
Philippians 4: [6] Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
If you can find anything else specifically written to "the body of Christ" (which we are part of) that tells us what God has promised or will or will not do for us in this day and time... well, maybe I haven't seen it. But these verses alone leave little to no doubt that after we take things to God.... and then LEAVE IT WITH HIM.... regardless of whatever does or doesn't subsequently come to pass in this life here on earth, we are told that the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. That's it. Pretty much everything I've come to know and believe about what is and/or isn't promised to us in this day and time. Give it to God, and let it go. That's what Paul did. So that's the example we are given to follow. Paul had no easy life, that's for sure. But... as for what is to come in all of eternity? That's another matter altogether. And whatever happens in this life... I believe God has been, and continues to, prepare us for whatever it is or will be doing for all of eternity.
Eternity...
Have you thought about it?
Israel was (and will always be...?) an earthly people and nation. Recipients of a lot of earthly promises.
How many of the promises that Paul has written of speak of things that are heavenly in nature (and perhaps is yet to come), rather than things which are earthly?
Thanks for your reply.I did mention some promises written to the body of Christ in 1 John 3:21-23 and 1 John 5:14-15.
Unlike the gospels, the Pauline epistles are mostly about the promises given to us because of who we are and what we have in the resurrected Christ.You see mention or examples of Eph 3:20 (also included in my post) with Peter, Stephen and Paul in the book of Acts as you noted.The “power that works in us” is the condition in this verse so one has to know what this accurately means.
Concerning Philippians 4:6-7, you wrote about taking things to God and then leaving them with him and that regardless of whatever does or doesn’t subsequently come to pass in this life, we have the peace of God that passes all understanding.The “regardless part” is not part of these 2 verses, but it is something that Christians seem to add to cover for when our requests are not answered.What happens after Christ returns and for all eternity are based on the scriptures, so trusting God’s word is a criterion for these to be meaningful.
I started this thread as a way to work through issues to help me know whether the Bible is truly the word of God and therefore trustworthy or if it is the work of men. There is much to consider.
According to Genesis 1-3, God creates a paradise and many different kinds of awesome life and everything is perfect.What a great God He is. Then everything is corrupted because of one single act of two humans (one who was deceived and the other who followed suit).All mankind has now become evil and worthy of death and is therefore in need of redemption.Now there are wars, murders, rapes, natural disasters, genocides, dreadful diseases and disorders of mind and body, hatred, lusts, etc. - SO MUCH pain and suffering century after century which God knew would happen because of Adam and Eve's disobedience.Why was such a cruel and severe punishment so necessary?
All of this is explained away by saying “a loving God gave Adam and Eve free will,” so everything is their fault – not God’s.I now call that statement into question because God was GOD and so much GREATER than them:
- God was incapable of doing evil, but Adam and Eve were created capable of doing evil.
- God had foreknowledge of all that would happen if sin entered the world, but Adam and Eve were only told of “their death.”
Who was in a greater and more powerful position to have the responsibility of the whole world placed on their shoulders – God or Adam and Eve?Yet God placed it on humans.I used to think this was how highly God thought of the perfect man He created, and they just went and blew it.Now, I’m thinking they were doomed from the beginning to fail.
As Nathan sort of reflected, this is all about the Judeo-Christian creation myth. Frankly, I very much appreciate your reinterpretation of it, Charity.
There's so much more knowledge and wisdom available to humans. To me, it's only natural and reasonable that people are considering legitimate philosophical questions trying to figure out the meaning of life according to dominant religions... of which Christianity is only one of the dominant ones.
Was anything written to Christ-believing people who lived decades or centuries later?
Sure. Of course. Paul’s letters and the epistles of the apostolic fathers and I’m sure other lettres that are long gone. In some churches 1 & 2 Clement were read as scripture alongside the gospels and Paul.
I’m making a point about the To/For Bullingerism. Hey, it’s a novel, systematic theology contrived in the 19th century. If it helps, go with it, but I find it to be narrow, shortsighted, and un inspired.
Gen 3:10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11And he said, Who told thee that thou was naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou should not eat?
Did God really not know what had happened until Adam told him?Did God not know the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve?Did he not foreknow that the serpent would try to tempt Eve? According to Paul, 4 thousand years later, God knew about Christ’s redeeming blood and that we’d be chosen of him before the foundation of the world. So why was Genesis 3:10 written this way?
Another thing, did God even warn Adam and Eve about Satan and how crafty, subtle and evil he was? There is no record of him doing so.So Eve is deceived by the serpent and decides to eat of the fruit giving it also to Adam who believing Eve (or for some other unstated reason), decides to eat as well. Could there have been a different outcome if Eve knew she was talking to a great deceiver?
This is why I believe this record in Genesis is a story made up by man to explain why there was such evil in the world.How could a truly all-knowing and perfectly loving God have been so asleep at the wheel as well as so punitive to have let this all play out as it did?
The wrath of God is something to consider as well.
You skipped 3:9.
“And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?”
No. The whole point is to value this life, to be alive.
Gracefully. With compassion.
Where is heaven? Above? In the sky? How do you know where or what this heaven is? What will you do there? Show off your rewards? Demonstrate what an obedient slave you are?
Jesus said, “If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.”
And a few related quotes from Henry Miller,
“Every moment is a golden one for him who has the vision to recognize it as such.”
“The moment one gives close attention to any thing, even a blade of grass it becomes a mysterious, awesome, indescribably magnificent world in itself.”
“The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware.”
3 hours ago, Rocky said:
As Nathan sort of reflected, this is all about the Judeo-Christian creation myth. Frankly, I very much appreciate your reinterpretation of it, Charity.
There's so much more knowledge and wisdom available to humans. To me, it's only natural and reasonable that people are considering legitimate philosophical questions trying to figure out the meaning of life according to dominant religions... of which Christianity is only one of the dominant ones.
Thanks for your post Rocky. I haven't considered too deeply yet what the meaning of life is if the God of the Bible does not exist. There was usually much joy in my life from knowing a loving God and Father as well as real comfort from knowing an empathetic and strengthening Christ. But things have become so complicated lately around prayer and God's past and future wrath that my spiritual life was becoming more and more confusing and oppressive. I think Nathan's post above holds some good ideas on how to rethink living life.
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Charity
The first thing mentioned in the "Is Christianity a Slave Mentality" video above is the fear of death. Like he shares, this is one of the last string that keeps me wanting to hang on to Christianity - is this life all we have (which Paul says we are then to be most pitied),or is there truly a promise of eternal life as explained in the Bible (especially one where my grandson will be given a healthy mind and body)? But if there is no God, then there is no promised afterlife as we have come to expect it. And if that's true, then a huge mind shift is required to see how living with this reality means we are to live our lives to the fullest while we can (within the requirements of human laws and with a care for helping our fellow man if one wishes).
If based on the accepted belief that there is no God, then does valuing even more the one life we have now all that awful? And what about the pain and suffering that does happen in this one life - how are we to see it when there is no relief to look forward to in heaven? I can see why God's promises are so important but only if one trusts the words of the Bible.
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cman
maybe what you have been told is Christianity is not Christian at all
perhaps reviewing other thinking is in order
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Charity
Hi Cman, I like many others, had to deconstruct from the wrong doctrine of twi after being involved for 11 years. Now, I'm wondering which of the following is not what we as Christians are to believe. In the Old Testament, the goodness of God towards His own people was mostly based on obedience to Him; otherwise, you see them suffer curses, deaths, killings, punishments, etc.
With the gospels, you have Jesus coming again to his own people and saying "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Then, in order to save mankind from sin, God needed him to be tortured and crucified for three hours because that was how God set everything up from the beginning.
The Epistles say we are saved by grace which is groovy for us considering what God did to his people under the law in the OT but not so groovy for those who may be saved during the great tribulation which God will allow to happen. Then, there's the power which we have access to during this period but only if we trust in God and even then, it seems to come down to His prerogative whether it's manifested.
Finally, there is the rapture which while again groovy for us, is not so for those left behind since they shall see "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
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Charity
After leaving twi, it was necessary to unlearn the lies we were taught in order to become healthier. I think it is true for leaving Christianity as well - it happens when one sees the problems with what the Bible teaches. Is it only a matter of how one looks at things? The following is from the beginning of the video above about the slave mentality of Christianity. It shows a different way of seeing God than what I’ve believed for so long.
INDIVIDUAL ASPECT - Fear of Death: God offers a bargain system, not a free gift but a trade in order to save us from eternal death (or hell) which He decided was the apt penalty for all of us because of Adam's sin. Our end of the bargain is to make Jesus Christ our lord and master.
PSYCHOLOGICAL ASPECT (6:15 in the video) - 5 LINEAR CHARACTERISTICS OF SLAVE MENTALITY (lowering oneself to bring about the desires/needs of someone greater at a great expense to oneself)
i. Obedience: based on being told the Master/God knows what is right; disobedience = personal harm
ii. Submissiveness: lowering oneself; believing we're worthless - we who are “wretched” according to our Master/God are “saved” so we can glorify how great our Master/God is
iii. Dependence: relying on our Master's/God's authority to supply our personal needs, validation, direction or sustenance which reinforces our worthlessness, wretchedness and incompetence to live our lives without Him
iv. Fatalism: The Master's/God’s way is the only way; any other way is bad, therefore we resign ourselves to submission and dependence on the Master/God
v. Fear of autonomy: fear of freedom, personal responsibility or unknown outcomes (e.g., Israelites wanting to return to slavery in Egypt rather than face the reality of their hardships in the wilderness)
A A believing Christian will obviously not see things this way, but for one who is beginning to doubt the truth of the Bible, the above becomes eye-opening.
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cman
yeah, a lot of that way stuff is based on bullinger and a book called "how to enjoy the bible" plus that companion bible
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cman
and a few other books,
the question is, is that what it is or is that all there is?
no, can't be
it has to be simple and something else that doesn't require classes and books
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Nathan_Jr
No. The whole point is to value this life, to be alive.
Gracefully. With compassion.
Where is heaven? Above? In the sky? How do you know where or what this heaven is? What will you do there? Show off your rewards? Demonstrate what an obedient slave you are?
Jesus said, “If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.”
And a few related quotes from Henry Miller,
“Every moment is a golden one for him who has the vision to recognize it as such.”
“The moment one gives close attention to any thing, even a blade of grass it becomes a mysterious, awesome, indescribably magnificent world in itself.”
“The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware.”
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Nathan_Jr
Fair observations. When one steps back to take an unfiltered look at it, the absurdity gets pretty gnarly. And, careful, that five-fingered glove won’t fit that twelve-fingered hand.
I always wondered: what am I being saved from?
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Charity
Thanks for sharing the above. The quotes and your words of "Gracefully. With compassion" did not describe my life while helping to take care of my grandson and other issues that resulted because of his needs. I was regularly hurt, confused and judging myself as to why things were getting worse and harder for us to deal with at the same time I was praying for God's help. This was like receiving a double whammy.
When I look at the verses on prayers or receiving God's promises, they are a mixed lot. Some have no conditions attached but most do have conditions attached. (I'll probably share more about this later.) Without the agony of wondering what more I have to do for God to answer the least of my prayers, I now can deal with reality in a simpler and calmer way. I still hurt for my grandson but my mind is clearer now and I can problem solve better now.
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Charity
Prayer is more than just asking God for your needs to be met – I understand that. And I understand how leaving Christianity because one’s prayers for deliverance did not get answered can be seen as acting like a spoiled brat. Yet, if God does not do what he promises to do, then the issue becomes one of trust. Is there really a God as laid out in the Bible?
Many will proclaim that their prayers were answered which is wonderful but what about the others who say their prayers were not. Why the difference if God is not a respecter of persons?
All the verses below (except for one) are promises with conditions attached which are not always specific leaving the door open for loopholes and turning “shalls” into “maybes.” On the other hand, the “shalls” can mean a definite “yes” but only according to God’s hidden timetable which means we wait (and we wait and we wait). However, “shall” never means "shall not," so there is a guarantee in them. (Concerning “trust” as a condition, the law of believing was a nightmarish doctrine of vpw. So is “trust” as used in some verses below any better?)
Finally, unanswered prayers for deliverance seems to always come down to two reasons: the person praying did not meet the conditions or that the deliverance will come but after Christ returns. The former leaves a Christian working to please God, and the latter only matters if there really is going to be a return of Christ. In other words, there is no proof until it actually happens. So this is where my thinking is at now and here are the verses.
Unconditional promise: Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened. (Verse 11 relates this promise to receiving “good things” from God. Luke 11:13 narrows it down to receiving “the Holy Spirit.” Which is it or is it both?)
1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (The context is loving “in deed and in truth.” Is this an "all or nothing" condition?)
1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he hears us: 15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. (Does this mean we are to always know God’s will or are we to attached “not my will but yours be done” at the end of our petitions?)
James 5:16 Confess your faults rs to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain… (What does “effectual fervent” mean? Do we have to be an Elijah to get answer to prayer? Does “righteous” mean one who does right or one who is righteous in Christ?)
Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us (If this is referring to the spirit realm, how many different doctrines are there about how “this power works in us.” Is there an accurate one that proves to work every time?)
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (The condition is trusting – having any uncertainty is not trusting.)
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance (assurance) of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (With both verses in Hebrews, the condition is trusting – having any uncertainty is not trusting.)
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cman
I like this one
Psalm 37:25
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
it's proven to be true for me for many years, although I don't feel righteous sometimes
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cman
plus I figured it's ok to suffer a few things, or actually be bored, nothing wrong with being bored
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TLC
Unfortunately, there is a lot of confusion (especially for many of us that were so deeply indoctrinated into the "what you can believe you will receive" teachings of PFAL) as to what - or perhaps I should say, which - of God's promises are specifically given and intended for us, rather that merely being "for our learning." Frankly, it's took far too long a long time for this to have ever begun getting straightened out in my... but after finally hearing it (and seeing it pointed out in scripture) from someone older, much wiser (and far more humble) than myself, it explained and made much more sense of a whole lot of things.
Honestly, there might be no really good or easy place to start, aside from ripping off the band-aid (which will probably take some hair and skin with it.) So, here goes...
What if a lot (i.e., most nearly all) of the promises of God that you have heard and think or suppose are given and meant to be applied and work for you... really aren't addressed to you? I said "what if"... because I know how hard that might be to even consider being a possibility. So let's leave it at that. What if they aren't?
Then... what is? And how does it differ from what we might have thought "was"? Well, that's what we have to find and look at from scripture. But, if you need or will want to have a possible reason why all the other promises aren't, then rather than chase that down some never seeming to end rabbit hole, perhaps you allow me to simply cut to the chase and summarize it in a word or two, and then move on. There are a lot of promises that are written and given specifically to Israel, most of them pertaining to life here on earth, and a great many of them being conditional. Jesus Christ was a minister to the circumcision. (Rom.15:8) Would not then all of what he said and did while he was here on earth be specifically addressed to and intended for those that he ministered to? So to, was all the law and the prophets of old. The Gentiles had neither God, nor the law. (Eph.2:12; Rom.2:14.) So... when did any of this change?
Well, I suppose one might say that it started with the resurrection. However, there appears to be no proof or evidence of it on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, or in much of what transpires for quite some time after that. It really isn't unit after Stephen's testimony before the council and high priest of Israel (Acts 7), their rejection of it, and the subsequent conversion of Saul that anything or anyone outside of Israel enters the picture. This is why some (myself included) believe that the church of today (aka, the body of Christ) first began with the apostle Paul, and not on the day of Pentecost. (For whatever it's worth, I don't see 1Tim.1:15-16 as intending to make Paul as the worst sinner that ever was. Rather I think being "chief" simply names him as being the first in line.) Perhaps it's time to take a much closer look at the prayers or promises that are written in the church epistles, and compare them to what might have been written and intended only for Israel.
Philippians 4:
[6] Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
[7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
If you can find anything else specifically written to "the body of Christ" (which we are part of) that tells us what God has promised or will or will not do for us in this day and time... well, maybe I haven't seen it. But these verses alone leave little to no doubt that after we take things to God.... and then LEAVE IT WITH HIM.... regardless of whatever does or doesn't subsequently come to pass in this life here on earth, we are told that the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. That's it. Pretty much everything I've come to know and believe about what is and/or isn't promised to us in this day and time. Give it to God, and let it go. That's what Paul did. So that's the example we are given to follow. Paul had no easy life, that's for sure. But... as for what is to come in all of eternity? That's another matter altogether. And whatever happens in this life... I believe God has been, and continues to, prepare us for whatever it is or will be doing for all of eternity.
Eternity...
Have you thought about it?
Israel was (and will always be...?) an earthly people and nation. Recipients of a lot of earthly promises.
How many of the promises that Paul has written of speak of things that are heavenly in nature (and perhaps is yet to come), rather than things which are earthly?
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Charity
According to Genesis 1-3, God creates a paradise and many different kinds of awesome life and everything is perfect. What a great God He is. Then everything is corrupted because of one single act of two humans (one who was deceived and the other who followed suit). All mankind has now become evil and worthy of death and is therefore in need of redemption. Now there are wars, murders, rapes, natural disasters, genocides, dreadful diseases and disorders of mind and body, hatred, lusts, etc. - SO MUCH pain and suffering century after century which God knew would happen because of Adam and Eve's disobedience. Why was such a cruel and severe punishment so necessary?
All of this is explained away by saying “a loving God gave Adam and Eve free will,” so everything is their fault – not God’s. I now call that statement into question because God was GOD and so much GREATER than them:
- God was incapable of doing evil, but Adam and Eve were created capable of doing evil.
- God had foreknowledge of all that would happen if sin entered the world, but Adam and Eve were only told of “their death.”
Who was in a greater and more powerful position to have the responsibility of the whole world placed on their shoulders – God or Adam and Eve? Yet God placed it on humans. I used to think this was how highly God thought of the perfect man He created, and they just went and blew it. Now, I’m thinking they were doomed from the beginning to fail.
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Nathan_Jr
There are two creation myths in the Bible: Genesis 1–2:3; Genesis 2:3–… Inerrantists do not or will not see it. And that’s just fine. But it’s not hard to see.
The language and style are different. The gods are different - El and Yahweh El. The first describes a perfect creation, the second describes a carnal, corrupted creation.
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Nathan_Jr
Paul wasn’t writing TO you, either. He was writing TO members of his ekklesia in Thessalonika, Galatia, Corinth, Phillipi…
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cman
Interesting take on the tribal aspect of what has been given, even to old Adam and Eve. Who actually had a direct relationship with God and the Serpent.
Comes down to what we do with each of our gifts. We all have them.
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Charity
Was anything written to Christ-believing people who lived decades or centuries later?
Edited by CharityLink to comment
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Charity
One more thing about Genesis 3…
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11And he said, Who told thee that thou was naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou should not eat?
Did God really not know what had happened until Adam told him? Did God not know the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve? Did he not foreknow that the serpent would try to tempt Eve? According to Paul, 4 thousand years later, God knew about Christ’s redeeming blood and that we’d be chosen of him before the foundation of the world. So why was Genesis 3:10 written this way?
Another thing, did God even warn Adam and Eve about Satan and how crafty, subtle and evil he was? There is no record of him doing so. So Eve is deceived by the serpent and decides to eat of the fruit giving it also to Adam who believing Eve (or for some other unstated reason), decides to eat as well. Could there have been a different outcome if Eve knew she was talking to a great deceiver?
This is why I believe this record in Genesis is a story made up by man to explain why there was such evil in the world. How could a truly all-knowing and perfectly loving God have been so asleep at the wheel as well as so punitive to have let this all play out as it did?
The wrath of God is something to consider as well.
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Charity
Thanks for your reply. I did mention some promises written to the body of Christ in 1 John 3:21-23 and 1 John 5:14-15.
Unlike the gospels, the Pauline epistles are mostly about the promises given to us because of who we are and what we have in the resurrected Christ. You see mention or examples of Eph 3:20 (also included in my post) with Peter, Stephen and Paul in the book of Acts as you noted. The “power that works in us” is the condition in this verse so one has to know what this accurately means.
Concerning Philippians 4:6-7, you wrote about taking things to God and then leaving them with him and that regardless of whatever does or doesn’t subsequently come to pass in this life, we have the peace of God that passes all understanding. The “regardless part” is not part of these 2 verses, but it is something that Christians seem to add to cover for when our requests are not answered. What happens after Christ returns and for all eternity are based on the scriptures, so trusting God’s word is a criterion for these to be meaningful.
I started this thread as a way to work through issues to help me know whether the Bible is truly the word of God and therefore trustworthy or if it is the work of men. There is much to consider.
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Rocky
As Nathan sort of reflected, this is all about the Judeo-Christian creation myth. Frankly, I very much appreciate your reinterpretation of it, Charity.
There's so much more knowledge and wisdom available to humans. To me, it's only natural and reasonable that people are considering legitimate philosophical questions trying to figure out the meaning of life according to dominant religions... of which Christianity is only one of the dominant ones.
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Nathan_Jr
Sure. Of course. Paul’s letters and the epistles of the apostolic fathers and I’m sure other lettres that are long gone. In some churches 1 & 2 Clement were read as scripture alongside the gospels and Paul.
I’m making a point about the To/For Bullingerism. Hey, it’s a novel, systematic theology contrived in the 19th century. If it helps, go with it, but I find it to be narrow, shortsighted, and un inspired.
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Nathan_Jr
You skipped 3:9.
“And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?”
Really?? Lord God can’t see them?
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Charity
Thanks for your post Rocky. I haven't considered too deeply yet what the meaning of life is if the God of the Bible does not exist. There was usually much joy in my life from knowing a loving God and Father as well as real comfort from knowing an empathetic and strengthening Christ. But things have become so complicated lately around prayer and God's past and future wrath that my spiritual life was becoming more and more confusing and oppressive. I think Nathan's post above holds some good ideas on how to rethink living life.
Edited by CharityQuoted Rocky's post twice.
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