In Search of Historic Jesus

[Raf]

Let's play "How long can cman stay on topic before making the thread about how much he can't stand being unable to control Raf so he has to resort to phony psychoanalysis and an appeal to divine intervention."

Last time he went, what, a post and a half?

[chockfull]

1 hour ago, cman said:

no, more east than that, and north

it don't matter to me to be the center of your hatred, the white whale

things will change soon enough

Cool.  Obscure victim images.

Labeling questions as hatred.

Is this representative of the fruit we can expect from “Christians”?

Asking for the world.

[Rocky]

10 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Labeling questions as hatred.

Or as personal attacks.

[cman]

questions you should already know the answers to, the graduating class at where I work-every year a new class- not one of them, none, zero want to repeat grade school again

I've been called Christian and many things, serpent is the one I prefer

[chockfull]

53 minutes ago, cman said:

questions you should already know the answers to, the graduating class at where I work-every year a new class- not one of them, none, zero want to repeat grade school again

I've been called Christian and many things, serpent is the one I prefer

Yeah I’m thinking I’m gonna go with Captain Ahab.

[cman]

8 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Yeah I’m thinking I’m gonna go with Captain Ahab.

lol.. good one chockfull...lol

[Raf]

Now that we're done derailing the thread...

Why doesn't the writer of James call himself the brother of Jesus? And why does he speak of Jesus "coming" instead of "returning"?

Why does the writer of Jude call himself the brother of James but not of Jesus? And why does he quote so heavily from a record, the Book of Enoch, which is well known to be bulls hit?

Jude calling himself the brother of James is a lot like Janet, LaToya and Jermaine calling themselves the siblings of Tito. Especially if they were speaking at a tribute to the album Thriller.

 

 

Edited March 1 by Raf

[Raf]

Looking at Chockfull's excellent post on a new thread, I think it becomes interesting to look at how various agruments are made and presented. We would all like to think our approach is logical, but i submit that no argument is purely ANYTHING. All combine logic, "authority" and emotion to some degree. Some, no doubt, rely more on one than others.

I humbly submit (pathos) that the majority of arguments in favor of the historicity of Jesus rely more on the argument from authority (ethos) than on actual evidence (logos).

I'll try to shut up and hear you guys out if you'd like to explore the topic without my interference. (Caveat: it's not about ME and I will jump in if the attempt is made [AGAIN] to make it about me).

[oldiesman]

A friend recently sent me this and thought I would place it here in support of the apostles' commitment to Jesus.   Have no idea if one or more of these statements are true but if so, could be powerful anecdotal evidence.    Please feel free to post any historical inaccuracies of the statements made here:

HOW THE APOSTLES DIED.

1. Matthew.  Suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia; killed by a sword wound.

 

2. Mark. Died in Alexandria Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.

 

3. Luke. Was hanged in Greece as a result of his preaching to the lost.

 

4. John. Faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome.  However, he was miraculously delivered from death.

John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos.   He wrote the Book of Revelation on Patmos.   The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey.   He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.

 

5. Peter.  He was crucified upside down on an x shaped cross.  According to church tradition it was because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die the same way that Jesus had died.

 

6. James.   Leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Jesus.   When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat him to death with a fuller's club.   This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.

 

7. James the Son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him.  As a strong leader of the church, James was beheaded at Jerusalem.   The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial.   Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution.   Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.

 

8. Bartholomew.   Also known as Nathaniel, was a missionary to Asia.   He witnessed for Jesus in present day Turkey.   Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia where he was flayed to death by a whip.

 

9. Andrew.   He was crucified on an x shaped cross in Patras, Greece.   After being whipped severely by seven soldiers, they tied his body to the cross with cords.  His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words, "I have long desired and expected this happy hour.   The cross has been consecrated by the body of Jesus hanging on it".    He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.

 

10. Thomas.   Stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.

 

11. Jude.  He was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Jesus.

 

12. Matthias.  The apostle chosen to replace Judas.   He was stoned and then beheaded.

 

13. Paul.  He was tortured and then beheaded by Emperor Nero in Rome in A.D. 67.   Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment, which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire.   These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.   

 

 

[waysider]

2 hours ago, oldiesman said:

 Have no idea if one or more of these statements are true...

Politely stated, these are what are called "traditional" beliefs.

 

 

[Raf]

I mean the easiest way to refute this would be to request documentation. 

The James story is especially of interest because it is recorded in Acts 12, but zero mention is made of him converting a guard who agrees to be beheaded by his side. My guess is that the writer of Acts found that story less credible than a zombie taking flight and disappearing behind a cloud bank, so he left it out.

Edited March 2 by Raf

[Mark Sanguinetti]

God and Jesus Christ give people the free will to believe what they want to believe. As an example of free will for humanity, Thomas, one of the 12 original disciples, later to be called apostles, did not believe that Jesus was risen from dead until he saw Jesus in his resurrected body, while even needing to touch Jesus Christ where He had been nailed to a cross.

John 20:25
25 ….So he (Thomas) said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." (NKJV)

Finally when Thomas saw Jesus, while even needing to touch Jesus Christ, he fully believed in Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior.  

John 20:26-28
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!"  27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"  (NKJV)

Maybe Raf, when sometimes reading his posts sounds like Thomas. 

Edited March 3 by Mark Sanguinetti

[Raf]

To me the most amazing thing about Thomas is how crucial his witness is and, subsequently, how we never hear from him again, not even in Acts of Some of the Apostles,  where his name shows up on a list and then he disappears from the narrative. Probably hiding out with Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, who likewise vanish from the story once they've outlived their usefulness.

They probably all hid out in Arimathea, which has a crucial property in common with Narnia, Mordor and Hogwarts.

Any wagers?

I understand if you are a believer you will take the gospels as, well, gospel. But to a historian, the gospels cannot reasonably treated as evidence. They are the claims for which history seeks evidence. 

That the story of Thomas is left out of Matthew and Luke should arouse suspicion as to its authenticity. Neither writer had any good reason to leave it out. Same with the raising of Lazarus. Why would anyone recounting the ministry of Jesus leave out that story?

And where TF did Lazarus go? Arimathea?

The gospel of John is fiction. That the moral of the story is "blessed are those who do not see yet believe" should be a giant red flag. No one in the act of providing evidence, which the gospel of whoever the hell wrote John purports to be, would cap his story off with an admonition against seeking evidence.

The ONLY people who speak out against the value of evidence are those who know they have none.

 

Edited March 3 by Raf

[cman]

it's all fiction until it isn't 

[Raf]

Contradiction is not rebuttal. "But I believe it" is not a resoonse to valid points raised. Or invalid points for that matter. I understand that it pisses you off to hold a position that has no supporting evidence, but that's not my fault and it doesn't help your position to call out "yuh huh" when your bulls hit argument is successfully refuted.

[cman]

I haven't made an argument, nor would I waste my time to try. However, I will say what I feel should be said.

[Raf]

Well, What you said did a very poor job of reflecting your overall intelligence.

[cman]

you should look at yourself, I mean, look at you, throwing insults and such

I know my attorney can handle these things nicely, so I can brush them off... nicely

[Raf]

Are you threatening to sue me?

Wow. 

For the record, I insulted your pointless post, not you. But if you'd like to get lawyers involved, I'm listed.

Edited March 3 by Raf

[Raf]

By the way, when you file a frivolous lawsuit, you are required to pay fees and costs when you lose. So if I were you I would be REAL careful about threatening legal action. You may be able to afford your lawyer but I assure you, you cannot afford mine.

Edited March 3 by Raf

[cman]

lol, you so funny

[Raf]

You're not. Let's return to topic.

[cman]

the topic nazi .... lol like the soup nazi, ya know

I have been on topic, very much so....

my attorney is Jesus Christ

[Raf]

My attorney returns calls.

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, Raf said:

Well, What you said did a very poor job of reflecting your overall intelligence.

Seriously, Raf? Can you not, detached from emotional noise, just give him an I statement. As in... I don't grasp what you're getting at. Why would you need to assess his "overall intelligence?" Sheesh.