Purgatory

[Stayed Too Long]

 

https://www.beautysoancient.com/ten-ways-to-bring-relief-to-the-poor-souls-in-purgatory/
 

The RC’s have a concept known as purgatory, that when one dies they may not go directly to heaven.
Instead, they require soul cleansing and are rerouted to a place called purgatory. In purgatory they suffer greatly until God decides to release them and join him in heaven. In this transient state, poor souls not only suffer, but their release from the suffering, is dependent on prayers offered up by souls on earth. For a sum of money, a family member or friend can buy the release of their dearly beloved, by having a mass said for the release of their soul. If you don’t have the money to spare, and unable to afford a Catholic mass, the article points out other means available to secure their release.

Interesting to me is there is no way of knowing when your loved is released,  sent to heaven, and seated with God? If they are already in heaven, what happens with the prayers sent up to release them of their cleansing? Does God apply them to another deserving soul? Do they just go into the universe and frought for nothing? 
What happens if numerous masses are offered for a loved one and then you stop? When do you know when to stop because they are in heaven? What if they were only one mass short of deliverence and no more were offered? Is there a time limit on being banished to purgatory? What if the poor departed soul has absolutely no one on this planet to offering up a mass or prayers? How about all the non Catholics who have uttterly no idea purgatory exists, how will they make it too heaven, assuming of course, they have not been immediately cast into the eternal fires  of hell?

 

 

Edited January 14 by Stayed Too Long

[cman]

isn't death cleansing anyway? fortunately, yes for everyone

there is a lot of terms in your questions that ask questions in itself, like hell, fire and all that "purgatory" seems to be

[Stayed Too Long]

2 hours ago, cman said:

isn't death cleansing anyway? fortunately, yes for everyone

there is a lot of terms in your questions that ask questions in itself, like hell, fire and all that "purgatory" seems to be

“There is a lot of terms” for sure in the RC religion, many that no other religions even acknowledge or know/care about. Take for example mortal sins…an act that will directly send you to hell, if you do not find a priest to forgive you, for your serious sin, before you die. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Curse God and you have a direct line to hell. Be a glutton and eat too much, and you will secure a place in eternal flames. Get drunk on a Friday night after work, and you have a confirmed reservation with the devil forever. 
 

Here is a list of actions the Roman Catholic’s claim will get you forever seperated from God:

https://www.holyannunciation.com/images/List_of_Grave_Sins_from_the_Catechism_of_the_Catholic_Church.pdf

Good luck staying in the graces of God!

 

[WordWolf]

According to RC doctrine, purgatory is a temporary place, and anyone in purgatory will EVENTUALLY make it into heaven once they're purified. One may shorten the time for someone in purgatory through prayers and indulgences and so on.  If not, eventually the person will get to heaven.

The selling of indulgences, while financially lucrative, was one of the things that triggered the Protestant Reformation.  It meant that Jesus was wrong and it was EASY for a rich man to enter heaven. 

I've forgotten the name, but one can join a society that will pray for you when you're dead, to shorten your time in purgatory. 

Number of occurrences of the word "purgatory" in the Bible- zero.

[Stayed Too Long]

In my original post, the number 2 fact was the souls in purgatory can pray for those on earth, but not for themselves. It seems if God would reverse this, they would get their cleanding done much more quickly. But who knows why this stumbling block was placed on suffering individuals by a loving God? Maybe, as the song says, “farther long we’ll know all about it, farther along we’ll understand why?” 

[cman]

you can know now....but just waiting is ok too

I guess the rcs needed a way to make money so they come up with purgatory 

Death is cleansing leaving all behind, only love matters 

[cman]

Boobupde bopbop everyone dies.....lol a good thing....

[Mark Sanguinetti]

As Wordwolf points out, there is no word "purgatory" in any version of the bible. If someone thinks there is, please quote from that bible version, the verse that has "purgatory". Using the actual bible, this involves the phrase "lake of fire" as listed using the New Kings James version in Revelation 19:20, 20:10, 20:14 and 20:15. The word for "fire", is from the Greek word "puros". This Greek word simply represents God and the holiness of God. Quoting from the New King James Version from Revelation 20:11-15:

Quote

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. 
NKJV

This involves the judgement of God and Jesus Christ God's Son at the second resurrection for people who did not believe in Jesus Christ. For people who will be judged favorably, they will be listed in the "Book of Life". The following chapter is Revelation 21 and the new heaven and new earth.

[cman]

Lake? Fire! huh huh what the hell!

[Mark Sanguinetti]

12 hours ago, cman said:

Lake? Fire! huh huh what the hell!

Only John, the author of the book of Revelation, uses the phrase "lake of fire". Combining a lake which has water used for putting out physical fires can show us that the phrase "lake of fire" is spiritual and not physical. Another example that "fire" used in the bible is often spiritual instead of physical, was the original receiving of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost historically from Acts chapter 2. 

Quote

Acts 2:1-4

2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 
NKJV
 

The word fire from Acts 2:3 is from the exact same Greek word "puros" in the phrase "lake of fire". Again, that should clearly show followers of Jesus Christ, that the word "fire" often represents spiritual from our heavenly Father, God.  As long as we have brains and even want to use our brains.

Edited January 24 by Mark Sanguinetti

[cman]

I'll take all the fire I can get from my lord anytime!

[chockfull]

Rev 20:13 the sea gave up the dead that were in it and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.

These groups of people mentioned probably gave rise to the idea of purgatory - which seems to be a mythical place trapped between heaven and hell.

Who is it really talking about though?  Who are the dead in the sea as opposed to the dead in Hades?  And the dead in Death?  Who are not in the sea or Hades?  Who are they?

Will they have name tags in the 3rd Heaven and Earth of Revelation?  Hey bro I’m a sea dead.  Oh yeah well I went to Hades and back.  Whoa.

[cman]

we were all taught to be afraid of God and the fire, lake or other

shouldn't be afraid at all

[Mark Sanguinetti]

I attended and graduated from a Roman Catholic high school. The religious belief of so called "purgatory" is much better than the ERRANT belief that people do not really die. When people breathe their last breath, most of humanity goes to so called hell for eternal torment with only a few people, perhaps because they were part of their denomination, going to heaven with eternal life. That ERRANT belief has a mindset of the 1st century Pharisees and their religious beliefs. For information on the history of the religious belief of purgatory, I recommend going to this web site. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_purgatory

 

Edited January 25 by Mark Sanguinetti

[cman]

hmm yes hey I recommend Roman's 

So here is where Martin Luther comes in proclaiming the freedom in Christ. He tried to end the slavery that people put into Christianity. And succeeded very much so.

[cman]

I'm still not surprised about all the fear being promoted with the lake of fire deal. Like we are supposed to be afraid of the wrath of God. It's just sad.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

6 hours ago, cman said:

I'm still not surprised about all the fear being promoted with the lake of fire deal. Like we are supposed to be afraid of the wrath of God. It's just sad.

Yes, any fear should NOT be from the phrase "lake of fire". Any fear should instead be from Revelation 20:14, "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."  NKJV

The next verse can be viewed favorably with people who did not see Jesus Christ in a favorable way during their life being written in the "Book of Life". Using common godly spiritual sense and even my brain, these will be peaceful and helpful people who did not commit crimes, such as murder. Clearly, Revelation 20:11-15 involves the judgement of God and Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:15  "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."  NKJV

The next verse, John got a vision of a new heaven and a new earth.

 Revelation 21:1

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
NKJV
 

The phrase "no more sea", could be only purified water in the new heaven and new earth.

Edited January 28 by Mark Sanguinetti

[cman]

1 hour ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Any fear should instead be from Revelation 20:14

no thanks

[Mark Sanguinetti]

It is OK and good to not be fearful of death with two future resurrections of the dead. The resurrection of the dead before the new heaven and new earth is quoted again from the New King James version with judgement. I consider this future judgment to be truthful.

Quote

Revelation 20:11-15

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. 
NKJV

 

Edited January 28 by Mark Sanguinetti

[cman]

14 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God

aren't they always before god?

Edited January 28 by cman

[cman]

12 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. 

as if that is a bad thing for them

[cman]

I don't think death here is talking about graveyard dead

11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

 

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

sounds like 2 deaths there in verse 10

speaking of murderers===

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

[sirguessalot]

fwiw imho it does seem there are rare threads running throughout all of human history in the form of a calling and invitation to "die before you die, so that you will not die," which involves some general devotion to practices tasting and touching the variety of states, stages and fields of consciousness associated with suffering, death and grief as a way to become compassionate, wise and harmless. The deeper story of religion is the deeper story of medicine, caregiving and midwifery at both ends of life. The story of Christ, from the Gospels to the Apocalypse (and notions of Purgatory), seems so vividly soaking wet with all this kind of thing that without such a lens, the scripture seems confusing at best. 

 

Edited January 29 by sirguessalot

[oldiesman]

I've been praying St. Gertrude's prayer almost every day for a while:

Eternal Father, I offer You the most Precious Blood of Your Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, those in my own home, and within my family. Amen.

It is said that this prayer releases souls from purgatory.    I asked a devout catholic friend how is it that "we" can release souls from purgatory after Jesus's judgment, and he said simply it has to do with the "community of saints."   Still working that out in my head.  But still praying too.

 

[oldiesman]

Oh one more thing.    I was taught in RCIA school that almost everyone goes to purgatory and in fact, it's very rare for someone to go directly to heaven.