I wonder if anyone here has lived "in the moment". Time and space kind of irrelevant, just melting away- it happens to people with absolutely zero drugs involved at times.
the catholic mass has been described as "being there" at that very moment of the crucifixion... time travel... still trying to wrap my head around that one!
the catholic mass has been described as "being there" at that very moment of the crucifixion... time travel... still trying to wrap my head around that one!
I think that we all are there.. and the question presented to me. Would I allow another human (or super-human depending upon your point of view) to endure this kind of
punishment on my behalf to gain eternal salvation..
I personally.. would not want my present stupidity to cause another being in this universe to experience unnecessary pain
At least in regards to my small reality here..
Just give it all to Jesus.. I don't exactly deny redemption. I think that it is a higher state that one must live up to.
How are we going to live it.. live a redemptive life.
Walk in His Steps.
The choice might require walking into the worst that is to come.
"Sigh... okay, I get that you find it offensive. But no longer tolerant of Christians? Really?" \
I suspect OldSkool noticed that the initial post was only "About the Way" because of two sentences that look inserted to give the excuse to post this in "About the Way", and without them, the entire post is complete, but neither "About the Way" nor particularly respectful of Christians.
There's somewhere in the GSC you can post and be disrespectful of Christians and have that be expected or welcome. I wouldn't bat an eye if this thread was there. It appears to me that the one sentence on vpw was an excuse to post it in a more popular forum instead. That nothing will be done about it pretty much will make OldSkool's point that "Bible-bashing is a large part of what Greasespot has become" and that it's considered perfectly acceptable to shoehorn this into "About the Way" when it takes an excuse to do so.
Apologies for the delayed response. This thread has been moved for reasons that should have been obvious months ago. My fault only (not sure if this thread was reported, but if it was, I must have been SOUND asleep. It did not belong in About The Way and I apologize for giving the impression that GSC is here to bash Christianity. GSC is here to give an opportunity to express thoughts on faith freely. This thread should have been moved eons ago. I take full responsibility.
Yes, it IS about the Way. The question/issue is, how did or would Victor Wierwille deal with this passage of scripture.
"If there is an All-Mighty God..." is a reframing of the philosophical question "can/could God make a rock heavier than he could lift?"
There is NO logical answer to either. But thank you for adding your insight.
He did read this record in a few teachings, I forget what the topics were, it might have been part of some Advanced Class sessions over the years, I can't quite place it.
He didn't try to explain it or offer an explanation as to what effects of such an event would have been, or would be, that I recall.
As far as the record goes, you're correct, if someone of that time wanted to extend the day so they could continue fighting in daylight, they had no idea the earth rotated the sun in any way that would have compared to how it was later understood, my impression of the record is that Joshua just wanted to delay night fall. As far as any literal understanding of the record the issue isn't the ask - it's the part that says, "So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself onbits enemies"...it seems to confirm the wrong thing.
And I guess on some level of what-if, the record could have read "and then the Word of the Lord came to Joshua in a big PowerPoint screen that showed him yea all of Israel, how the earth rotated the sun and yea verily thus be it so and as it was will be, it was as Joshua had asked, and they continued to kick their enemies ass for as long as was necessary. Amen."
But it didn't of course. I take it at face value having asked for some rather outrageous things myself over the years and learned that what I think is happening and what I need isn't always what's really happening and what I need. This record might tell us that as far as the people who carried this story forward and into the canon of scrip, Joshua got what he needed to win that battle and that there was an extraordinary component to it, something that they remembered, was worth retelling because it was so extraordinary.
Edited by socks I apologize for calling you at this hour, but we have received a number of grievances from your floor concerning the noise.
I no longer have respect for the dogma Victor Wierwille pushed.
The topic has been talked about here at GS for a long time, i.e. is it VPW or his dogma that was offensive, or both. I've always separated the two and still feel the same way, i.e. the dogma is either true or false on its own irrespective of the sins of VPW. Remember, he didn't originate lots of it. But I think one of the biggest crimes of TWI that must be said is the ramming through of only their biblical views without discussing/considering/examining other views to see which was really biblically accurate. Not much of an open mind to other viewpoints. What a shame for all of us because there's so much more to be considered and I feel like I was ripped off all those years in that one sense.
This is an old point. Responses to it are pretty much predictable. Either it's an actual account of something that happened to that effect, or it isn't even close to anything that happened.
If it isn't close to anything that happened, then there's nothing else to discuss, the account is unreliable, the book is unreliable, and the codex is unreliable. This isn't news to anyone- anyone who says this already was saying those.
If it's an actual account, we have to take into account the ability of the then-contemporary readers and listeners to make sense of things. (That's clear no matter WHO wrote it.) I can easily posit that an All- Mighty God could pause the Earth and suspend all consequences, since He would have the power to do so. However, if asked my opinion, I think it's more likely that an All-Mighty God would produce the effect, and let the puny people understand it their way without any need to educate them to 21st century scientific understanding. I would posit that all planets, stars, etc continued as normal, and that what was altered was the light hitting the Earth. An All-Mighty God could certainly do so, which would lengthen, shorten, or abruptly begin or end a day.
Granted, this would certainly be on the high end of fantastic for a miracle, but that's not proof of anything by itself. If there is an All-Mighty God, He COULD do exactly this, and if there wasn't, then the account was simply cooked.
How would we know which was the answer? Everyone's answer to that is that this was a closed issue before they reached these verses. Either they already believed or they already dis-believed. It goes to the general body of evidence long before it gets here.
I agree. Anyone that uses the Bible as source material could have the same question. In that sense it's more of a general theological discussion. And to my knowledge VPW took the record on face value.
Tyson I can accept but so much of the world of butt-hurt anti-religious drones celebrate him as their own personal patron saint of the New Age of Science and Data. Not you Rocky, this isn't personal to you, just my reaction which I admit is, you know, biased by my own opinions.
Sure, he comes off narcissistic and in love with his own voice, but he's an astrophysicist and one helluva "science communicator" with a respectable education and resume. He can bang the drum and get the word out and he's done so successfully. What he doesn't do for me is engage me in a way that pushes me to know more, to get answers for questions I have - but that's me, and this only speaks for me.
So sure, that's me and I suppose to some it just indicates what a flawed person I am and how biased and bent my thinking is so how COULD I ever get answers. Right? But aside from that, that's how he strikes me.
Not everything can be measured by the known measuring tools - or CAN it....? .... but if it could be then how would I ever learn if there WERE any new ways to learn, perceive, etc? Knowledge is - to me - isn't really subjective or objective, by nature. The struggle is to learn what is real, what is true and the struggle is real. To that end Tyson does encourage the scientific process and I respect that, but I also have other means by which I learn and he's not my go to guy for that.
But overall, I don't think VPW had any response to that record specifically that was unusual to the norm of what most religious views would be.
Edited by socks I've done this because, philosophically, I am sympathetic to your aim.
What if.. heh. What if.. this Simulation is based on some laws of physics.. generally we agree on them, their underlying tenets or from the mathematical version, Axioms, make some agreeable sense or logic..
heh.
Can the Earth traverse backwards in its orbit about the sun.. I suppose, given enough energy to do so. In my mind I can visualize it.. but the cause and consequences might be more than that which I want to actually pay for.
Or if I were a god like being I could just snap my fingers and let the underlings pay for it all..
but I would still be responsible for the final bill..
heh
you know, angry mobs waiting for their pay.. heh I would rather ask the question- what do you really want to do..
this is why the local college will not hire me as an administrator. They want "big" changes.. the last few times in history that we have had big changes a whole hell of a lot of people have died over it.. I prefer big changes one very small step at a time. Can't give them what they want in the short time required.. so what will become of me..
My first observation. This place is f*ucking dam*ned filthy. If nobody else wants the job, I'll clean the place up.
The Students deserve at Least- a clean place to work.
A little bit at a time.
Anybody want to follow me yet? (the leadership question..)
Nope. OK.. I'll still keep doing it at $17.00 per hour.
I put my name in for the position.. run the place.. heh.
Administrator.. good god.. heh
we have in the back of the room.. a state of inertia.. I call it the Black Hole.. heh
but no complaints here. Only observation..
Nobody moves. They merely sit, unless for the few times that they simply cannot, sit
In a Learning Center- I would remove every single chair, every single place of stability..
I would replace every chair, every table, with a vertical writing board, a small podium where one could place their book and notes.. and we would have freedom to walk about the problem of the day..
A small bar. It could serve coffee, or wine or both..
They are looking for somebody to single-handedly run that particular lunatic asylum..
my qualifications.. heh.
It can't be done by one individual.
The world really sucks.. heh. It is a "competitive position".. to one of my colleagues.. the last communication was "you know, even if the gods above me required it, I would absolutely not kick your foot.." feel free to do what you want but..
all that we learned in the Way Simulation is pretty small compared to reality. Some of you failed tje simulation miserably but who cares.. No Big Deal.
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Ham
Math helps. At least is partially predictable.
People think that Math is hard.. it is far easier than working with people. For any given day..
True intelligence.. god you're so smart.. no.
knowledge is good.. all of it.
It all leads us to the Creator..
True intelligence.. can you actually communicate with or understand the living being just next to you..
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oldiesman
the catholic mass has been described as "being there" at that very moment of the crucifixion... time travel... still trying to wrap my head around that one!
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chockfull
No that would be everyone on the forum. DDOS attacks don’t single people out.
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chockfull
Yes I see.
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Ham
I laugh immensely.. sometimes I see, sometimes I do not..
heh
Oh. good evening dear friend.. I hope that all is well with you and your family. Hopes are all that I have. God bless you friend.
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Ham
I think that we all are there.. and the question presented to me. Would I allow another human (or super-human depending upon your point of view) to endure this kind of
punishment on my behalf to gain eternal salvation..
I personally.. would not want my present stupidity to cause another being in this universe to experience unnecessary pain
At least in regards to my small reality here..
Just give it all to Jesus.. I don't exactly deny redemption. I think that it is a higher state that one must live up to.
How are we going to live it.. live a redemptive life.
Walk in His Steps.
The choice might require walking into the worst that is to come.
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Ham
My life vs yours.. mine is a very small thing.
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modcat5
Apologies for the delayed response. This thread has been moved for reasons that should have been obvious months ago. My fault only (not sure if this thread was reported, but if it was, I must have been SOUND asleep. It did not belong in About The Way and I apologize for giving the impression that GSC is here to bash Christianity. GSC is here to give an opportunity to express thoughts on faith freely. This thread should have been moved eons ago. I take full responsibility.
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socks
He did read this record in a few teachings, I forget what the topics were, it might have been part of some Advanced Class sessions over the years, I can't quite place it.
He didn't try to explain it or offer an explanation as to what effects of such an event would have been, or would be, that I recall.
As far as the record goes, you're correct, if someone of that time wanted to extend the day so they could continue fighting in daylight, they had no idea the earth rotated the sun in any way that would have compared to how it was later understood, my impression of the record is that Joshua just wanted to delay night fall. As far as any literal understanding of the record the issue isn't the ask - it's the part that says, "So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on b its enemies"...it seems to confirm the wrong thing.
And I guess on some level of what-if, the record could have read "and then the Word of the Lord came to Joshua in a big PowerPoint screen that showed him yea all of Israel, how the earth rotated the sun and yea verily thus be it so and as it was will be, it was as Joshua had asked, and they continued to kick their enemies ass for as long as was necessary. Amen."
But it didn't of course. I take it at face value having asked for some rather outrageous things myself over the years and learned that what I think is happening and what I need isn't always what's really happening and what I need. This record might tell us that as far as the people who carried this story forward and into the canon of scrip, Joshua got what he needed to win that battle and that there was an extraordinary component to it, something that they remembered, was worth retelling because it was so extraordinary.
Edited by socksI apologize for calling you at this hour, but we have received a number of grievances from your floor concerning the noise.
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oldiesman
The topic has been talked about here at GS for a long time, i.e. is it VPW or his dogma that was offensive, or both. I've always separated the two and still feel the same way, i.e. the dogma is either true or false on its own irrespective of the sins of VPW. Remember, he didn't originate lots of it. But I think one of the biggest crimes of TWI that must be said is the ramming through of only their biblical views without discussing/considering/examining other views to see which was really biblically accurate. Not much of an open mind to other viewpoints. What a shame for all of us because there's so much more to be considered and I feel like I was ripped off all those years in that one sense.
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socks
I agree. Anyone that uses the Bible as source material could have the same question. In that sense it's more of a general theological discussion. And to my knowledge VPW took the record on face value.
Tyson I can accept but so much of the world of butt-hurt anti-religious drones celebrate him as their own personal patron saint of the New Age of Science and Data. Not you Rocky, this isn't personal to you, just my reaction which I admit is, you know, biased by my own opinions.
Sure, he comes off narcissistic and in love with his own voice, but he's an astrophysicist and one helluva "science communicator" with a respectable education and resume. He can bang the drum and get the word out and he's done so successfully. What he doesn't do for me is engage me in a way that pushes me to know more, to get answers for questions I have - but that's me, and this only speaks for me.
So sure, that's me and I suppose to some it just indicates what a flawed person I am and how biased and bent my thinking is so how COULD I ever get answers. Right? But aside from that, that's how he strikes me.
Not everything can be measured by the known measuring tools - or CAN it....? .... but if it could be then how would I ever learn if there WERE any new ways to learn, perceive, etc? Knowledge is - to me - isn't really subjective or objective, by nature. The struggle is to learn what is real, what is true and the struggle is real. To that end Tyson does encourage the scientific process and I respect that, but I also have other means by which I learn and he's not my go to guy for that.
But overall, I don't think VPW had any response to that record specifically that was unusual to the norm of what most religious views would be.
Edited by socksI've done this because, philosophically, I am sympathetic to your aim.
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Ham
What if.. heh. What if.. this Simulation is based on some laws of physics.. generally we agree on them, their underlying tenets or from the mathematical version, Axioms, make some agreeable sense or logic..
heh.
Can the Earth traverse backwards in its orbit about the sun.. I suppose, given enough energy to do so. In my mind I can visualize it.. but the cause and consequences might be more than that which I want to actually pay for.
Or if I were a god like being I could just snap my fingers and let the underlings pay for it all..
but I would still be responsible for the final bill..
heh
you know, angry mobs waiting for their pay.. heh I would rather ask the question- what do you really want to do..
this is why the local college will not hire me as an administrator. They want "big" changes.. the last few times in history that we have had big changes a whole hell of a lot of people have died over it.. I prefer big changes one very small step at a time. Can't give them what they want in the short time required.. so what will become of me..
My first observation. This place is f*ucking dam*ned filthy. If nobody else wants the job, I'll clean the place up.
The Students deserve at Least- a clean place to work.
A little bit at a time.
Anybody want to follow me yet? (the leadership question..)
Nope. OK.. I'll still keep doing it at $17.00 per hour.
The math is the easy part.
God bless you dear friends..
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Ham
I put my name in for the position.. run the place.. heh.
Administrator.. good god.. heh
we have in the back of the room.. a state of inertia.. I call it the Black Hole.. heh
but no complaints here. Only observation..
Nobody moves. They merely sit, unless for the few times that they simply cannot, sit
In a Learning Center- I would remove every single chair, every single place of stability..
I would replace every chair, every table, with a vertical writing board, a small podium where one could place their book and notes.. and we would have freedom to walk about the problem of the day..
A small bar. It could serve coffee, or wine or both..
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Ham
Tonight it is wine. Tomorrow, it is (a lot of) coffee. heh
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Ham
They are looking for somebody to single-handedly run that particular lunatic asylum..
my qualifications.. heh.
It can't be done by one individual.
The world really sucks.. heh. It is a "competitive position".. to one of my colleagues.. the last communication was "you know, even if the gods above me required it, I would absolutely not kick your foot.." feel free to do what you want but..
all that we learned in the Way Simulation is pretty small compared to reality. Some of you failed tje simulation miserably but who cares.. No Big Deal.
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Ham
I've failed at least a thousand times..
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