Maybe they WOULD be free to inquire, free to find out.
------
This topic hit hard for me recently. It's an issue that I've been concerned about for years. My son, 14, has been forced to go to Wierwillian fellowship his entire life. I've tried to imagine how the deprogramming will go when the time comes. Would it be hard? Would he M&A me?
We have never talked about God, religion, belief. I've never brought it up, nor has he. Until two weeks ago.
He told me his mother says an administrator at his school is or has or a devil spirit. I immediately yelled, "BULLS HIT!" Since he brought it up, I seized the opportunity correct his indoctrination, but he stopped me mid speech with a raised hand and said, "Dad! I know! Don't worry. I know it's bulls hit." He then let out a long, hard belly laugh at the absurdity of it all.
I wept tears of relief and gratitude. He asked me why I was crying. "Joy, Son," I said. "Tears of joy."
Last week we were going over some vocabulary and spelling. The word was pneumonia, I think. I casually remarked this should be easy to remember, "Because Greek...pneuma hagion... same stem...means breath...you hear that phrase every Sunday, right?"
He replied, "Oh, I don't know... I've never heard that... but I don't pay attention at fellowship. I'm usually sleeping with my eyes open."
Again, I wept.
He then asked me when he can stop going to fellowship. I told him whenever he wants.
Everyone has a devil spirit. Even rap music is devil spirit, so says his mom. We laugh about how everyone and everything is devil spirit every day now. It's our inside joke.
I'm laughing and weeping tears of joyous relief even as I type this.
I'm not saying I'm raising him to be an atheist or a Christian or a Buddhist or an adherent to any ideology. He knows if he wants to talk about any of it, I'm here to talk about it.
I hope I'm raising him to be curious, inquisitive, thoughtful, kind, compassionate, generous, respectful, diligent, honest, accountable. I hope.
I tell him if he wants to find out about God, gods or no gods, he can find out for himself. I tell him if he wants to find out if there is that which is eternal and unnameable, he can find out about that, too.
Each of your points seems to be about what they wouldn't have to do. What WOULD they believe about life and creation?
How do you envision answering the child's big questions?
You posed an intriguing thought experiment.
From birth I would reinforce with my child he or she should make the world a better place.
At work, I once had an acquaintance who was an atheist and I was a Wayfer. Of course, I felt he was a complete counterfeit using the devil to mimic God’s good works. He was doing goodworks but not for the glory of God. Especially, why should I be concerned about helping anyone other than active believers in the household of God?
He explained that everyday he walked about the earth looking to do good. That might include helping a person, working with a group that he felt was important, reading a book, doing a good job at work, or visiting with friends. A person’s religious belief did not enter into his reason for doing anything.
I doubt if he was concerned about acquiring rewards, or losing rewards, by impressing or disappointing a god.
My kids have seen the impact of a fundamentalist Christian cult on our lives and have experienced some of that as children.
They are very aware of the abuse involved with Way leadership and their treatment of us as ministers.
They will never go to anything related to Wierwille or the Way. That is 100 percent due to the actions of current and former leadership and their putrid example of Christianity.
They are grown and out of the house and exploring on their own growing and developing their own ideas and spiritual views and priorities.
I don’t worry about them being an “atheist” as that is a classification label used by judgmental fundamentalist Christians.
They have a respect for God and scripture an understanding of Christ and encouragement from us to explore what helps them most in life.
They are wonderful caring contributing members of society that are balanced and help others. One organized at their work a group making blankets for the homeless, which will help the homeless infinitely more than “the class” would.
I’m sure many would have questions about them but I don’t want to write a lot of personal details. They deserve the privacy of enjoying their lives without more cult backlash. That is another reason why I’m not writing a memoir.
I’m sure they will probably at some point get witnessed to or sent a postcard. They can respond with a puzzling look and a “no thank you”. Much better than an entangled life of lies and bondage.
Kids growing up in a cult have a special Dante’s Inferno they endure. Mine have. I need their adult lives to be free from that and not impacted by my decisions and goals. They certainly don’t need impact from any personal moglet ascension priorities which I don’t have unlike 98% of my former friends in the Way Corpse.
My kids have seen the impact of a fundamentalist Christian cult on our lives and have experienced some of that as children.
They are very aware of the abuse involved with Way leadership and their treatment of us as ministers.
They will never go to anything related to Wierwille or the Way. That is 100 percent due to the actions of current and former leadership and their putrid example of Christianity.
They are grown and out of the house and exploring on their own growing and developing their own ideas and spiritual views and priorities.
I don’t worry about them being an “atheist” as that is a classification label used by judgmental fundamentalist Christians.
The definition of an atheist is not one started by fundamentalist Christians. Merriam Webster defines an atheist as:
a person who does not believe in the existence of asupreme beingor beings.
a person who believes that there is no supreme being or beings.
They are wonderful caring contributing members of society that are balanced and help others. One organized at their work a group making blankets for the homeless, which will help the homeless infinitely more than “the class” would.
I’m sure many would have questions about them but I don’t want to write a lot of personal details. They deserve the privacy of enjoying their lives without more cult backlash. That is another reason why I’m not writing a memoir.
I’m sure they will probably at some point get witnessed to or sent a postcard. They can respond with a puzzling look and a “no thank you”. Much better than an entangled life of lies and bondage.
Kids growing up in a cult have a special Dante’s Inferno they endure. Mine have. I need their adult lives to be free from that and not impacted by my decisions and goals. They certainly don’t need impact from any personal moglet ascension priorities which I don’t have unlike 98% of my former friends in the Way Corpse.
Sweet picking at my personal sharing. Who the f cares what Merriam-Webster says.
So I’m wrong I’m not worrying about them being an atheist according to a dictionary?
What about you? So you have kids? Are you married? What is your skin in the game in all this beyond “it occurred to me while driving”?
If you wanna raise kids via dictionaries then try it and tell me how it goes.
Thats the last personal info sharing I’m giving on this thread. And mostly why I don’t share personal things much here as there’s always that one person.
Sweet picking at my personal sharing. Who the f cares what Merriam-Webster says.
Why do you believe I am sweet picking at your personal sharing? I merely pointed out the definition was more widely used other that by fundamentals Christians.
So I’m wrong I’m not worrying about them being an atheist according to a dictionary?
What about you? So you have kids? Are you married? What is your skin in the game in all this beyond “it occurred to me while driving” …”while driving,” is a great time to think about things. One of the thoughts I had is what initiated the subject of this thread.
Does it matter what my “skin in the game,” is? What difference does it make if my family is like The Brady Bunch or Leave it to Beaver’s family? Whether I am divorced a half a dozen times, or happily married for over 50 years? If I have two kids in the penitentiary and three others barely scraping by?
If you wanna raise kids via dictionaries then try it and tell me how it goes.
We are only discussing the the term atheist and how it was defined, not me running to the library and finding the desktop dictionary everytime I have a question about raising my family.
You said atheist was a “classification label used by fundamentalist Christians.” I merely pointed out it was a term used much morely widely by society.
I am not trying to attack or belittle you in any way, just adding to the conversation.
Thats the last personal info sharing I’m giving on this thread. And mostly why I don’t share personal things much here as there’s always that one person.
If you believe your personal sharings should not be subject to discussion by others, by all means you have made the right decision to no longer post them.
No you were not “merely pointing out” I’m not doing this again. Apparently we must take your postings as absolute with no possible ways to add, question, or clarify them?
I gave a reason for my personal past decision regarding kids.
I respect your personal decisions regarding kids and absolutely support you.
You didn’t like that I said atheism is a label used to target by fundamentalist Christians.
I said atheism was a term used by society, which would include fumdamentalist Christians.
Is that statement untrue?
It is 100% true. You have my vote.
No it is 100 percent true.
Absolutely!
Then you twisted my statement and contradicted it by citing a dictionary and saying oooh no it wasn’t “started” by fundamentalist Christians.
I reread all of my posts and could not find anwhere using the word “started,” was used. This is your imagination.
I never said “started”. See above statement
I am going to stop posting personal details because God doesn’t want me casting pearls before swine.
You are posting in the atheist section so you can expect there to be at least one swine present.
You in the analogy are a jack@$$ that is represented by the swine comparison just to completely clarify.
In another recent post you apologized for calling me names.
I’m out.
Yep, this is STL: Keep your pearls well hidden when you see a post from a raging atheist!
Yeah. You don’t read apparently which adds to the issues.
Look back at your first response to me 3 posts up and tell me one more time how it’s my imagination you used the word “started” . It’s real hard to miss it’s the 9th word of your post.
Just to point out - when something real occurs but you deny it and accuse it being in someone’s imagination, that practice is called “gaslighting”
Yeah. You don’t read apparently which adds to the issues.
Look back at your first response to me 3 posts up and tell me one more time how it’s my imagination you used the word “started” . It’s real hard to miss it’s the 9th word of your post.
SORRY, I overlooked it. My apologize.
Just to point out - when something real occurs but you deny it and accuse it being in someone’s imagination, that practice is called “gaslighting”
Let me assure you I am in no way attemting to gaslight you. You are also convinced Rocky is gaslighting you. Anyone else?
Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting theirmemory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.
Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting theirmemory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.
Please NOTE: this is an "I" statement. It is NOT an accusation about any aspect of chockfull's intentions, mental states/conditions, or actions is ANY way.
Hey anybody that technically performs the act of gaslighting is gaslighting. It sounds like you were triggered by hearing the definition of it.
What about the definition of gaslighting indicates I was triggered to control your life? Do you believe I have you under my control? Since posting on this thread have you lost the ability to think for your self. Do you question every thought you have? Do I have complete psychological control over you? If I do have control of your mind, I will cast the controlling spirit out of you in the powerful name of Jesus Christ.
There, now your mind should be free, and you are able to once again think your own thoughts. Praise God and let’s all speak in tongues and be slain in the spirit.
I apologized for not finding the word “started.”
It seems you are grasping for straws. I have addressed your issues on your posts on this thread and you have not acknowleged them or asked for further clarification. My responses don’t seem to be of much interest to you.
Maybe you wanna blame your good buddy Merriam Webster.
What do I want to blame Merriam Webster for?
I looked up the word atheist and MW defined the word as people who do not believe in God. This definition would surely include any group of judgmentalist Christians whom you referenced. I have acknowleged your example is an example of an atheist. What more can I do to assure you I completely believe fundamentals Christians believe atheists do not believe in God?
Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting theirmemory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.
Oh look the gangs all here
I was going by Merriam Webster dictionary definition #2
“the act or practice of grossly misleading someone especially for one’s own advantage”
But thanks for playing.
PS I don’t buy your BS about inadvertently making mistakes. You know exactly what you are doing posting BS
Stayed I can’t copy your Bs from inside the box to answer. It’s so tedious to respond when you post like that where I can’t quote your post. It does obscure what you say so that you can deny it later. I find a number of those examples.
So tldr on the last one. Yes both you clowns are performing #2 definition right here.
And you’re both triggered.
You both are highly manipulative posters.
Rocky your apology was for contradicting me which 100% of the audience knows that wasn’t what I called you out on. And in the same post as your “apology” you called out my mental health in question. So you and your apology can ride out on the same horse.
Please NOTE: this is an "I" statement. It is NOT an accusation about any aspect of chockfull's intentions, mental states/conditions, or actions is ANY way.
What is an “I” statement and how do you distinguish it from sounding you are talking directly about the person you are posting about?
The easy question is “then why did you post it in the context of an argument except to infer association”?
Does an “I” statement mean that you are the one that represents the definition you posted?
Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting theirmemory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.
So rather than cherry picking the definition why don’t you link the reference?
Also if you actually read the entire article in Psychology today it’s real easy to identify the tactics I am mentioning getting people to doubt their own memory by feeding them misinformation.
When you are in conflict, you may have difficulty clearly articulating your situation without escalating the conflict. Using an “I” message (also known as an “assertiveness statement”) can help you state your concerns, feelings, and needs in a manner that is easier for the listener to hear and understand. An “I-statement” focuses on your own feelings and experiences. It does not focus on your perspective of what the other person has done or failed to do. It is the difference, for example, between saying, "I feel that I am not being permitted to participate in office projects to the extent that others are” and "You always let Marge work on office projects, but you never ask me if I’m interested.” If you can express your experience in a way that does not attack, criticize, or blame others, you are less likely to provoke defensiveness and hostility which tends to escalate conflicts, or have the other person shut-down or tune you out which tends to stifle communication. Ultimately, I-messages help create more opportunities for the resolution of conflict by creating more opportunities for constructive dialogue about the true sources of conflict.
That is but an excerpt of the handout linked above. Thank you for asking.
Rocky your apology was for contradicting me which 100% of the audience knows that wasn’t what I called you out on. And in the same post as your “apology” you called out my mental health in question.
I have no insight about any aspect of your health, mental or otherwise.
I disagreed with you. I did not make any statement, implicit or explicit about you.
Not only did I refrain from making any assessment of any aspect of your life or health, I also did not make any statement about what you may or may not remember about anything. Further, I did not direct you to do or refrain from doing anything whatsoever.
I have no insight about any aspect of your health, mental or otherwise.
I disagreed with you. I did not make any statement, implicit or explicit about you.
I guess I need to go quote your post here too? Go review the post where you supposedly apologized and read it again. Like Stayed who first claimed to never have said “started”?
After reading the “I” statement article what I can say is “I feel like you two are gaslighting me because you deny previous posts and call them inadvertent mistakes and you forget and mischaracterize the content of previous posts to make yourselves look better”
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Stayed Too Long
When I was a young man raised in the Catholic Church I so much wanted to please God. But the biggest thing the church taught me was condemnation. When ever I would have a sinful thought it would send
WordWolf
I noticed earlier in the thread, you mentioned growing up Roman Catholic, and that there was a lot of guilt and condemnation served up with everything else. That's a shame, but hardly universal among
Nathan_Jr
I'm not saying I'm raising him to be an atheist or a Christian or a Buddhist or an adherent to any ideology. He knows if he wants to talk about any of it, I'm here to talk about it. I hope I'm ra
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Rocky
Is that all?
Each of your points seems to be about what they wouldn't have to do. What WOULD they believe about life and creation?
How do you envision answering the child's big questions?
You posed an intriguing thought experiment.
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Nathan_Jr
Maybe they WOULD be free to inquire, free to find out.
------
This topic hit hard for me recently. It's an issue that I've been concerned about for years. My son, 14, has been forced to go to Wierwillian fellowship his entire life. I've tried to imagine how the deprogramming will go when the time comes. Would it be hard? Would he M&A me?
We have never talked about God, religion, belief. I've never brought it up, nor has he. Until two weeks ago.
He told me his mother says an administrator at his school is or has or a devil spirit. I immediately yelled, "BULLS HIT!" Since he brought it up, I seized the opportunity correct his indoctrination, but he stopped me mid speech with a raised hand and said, "Dad! I know! Don't worry. I know it's bulls hit." He then let out a long, hard belly laugh at the absurdity of it all.
I wept tears of relief and gratitude. He asked me why I was crying. "Joy, Son," I said. "Tears of joy."
Last week we were going over some vocabulary and spelling. The word was pneumonia, I think. I casually remarked this should be easy to remember, "Because Greek...pneuma hagion... same stem...means breath...you hear that phrase every Sunday, right?"
He replied, "Oh, I don't know... I've never heard that... but I don't pay attention at fellowship. I'm usually sleeping with my eyes open."
Again, I wept.
He then asked me when he can stop going to fellowship. I told him whenever he wants.
Everyone has a devil spirit. Even rap music is devil spirit, so says his mom. We laugh about how everyone and everything is devil spirit every day now. It's our inside joke.
I'm laughing and weeping tears of joyous relief even as I type this.
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Nathan_Jr
I'm not saying I'm raising him to be an atheist or a Christian or a Buddhist or an adherent to any ideology. He knows if he wants to talk about any of it, I'm here to talk about it.
I hope I'm raising him to be curious, inquisitive, thoughtful, kind, compassionate, generous, respectful, diligent, honest, accountable. I hope.
I tell him if he wants to find out about God, gods or no gods, he can find out for himself. I tell him if he wants to find out if there is that which is eternal and unnameable, he can find out about that, too.
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Rocky
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Stayed Too Long
From birth I would reinforce with my child he or she should make the world a better place.
At work, I once had an acquaintance who was an atheist and I was a Wayfer. Of course, I felt he was a complete counterfeit using the devil to mimic God’s good works. He was doing goodworks but not for the glory of God. Especially, why should I be concerned about helping anyone other than active believers in the household of God?
He explained that everyday he walked about the earth looking to do good. That might include helping a person, working with a group that he felt was important, reading a book, doing a good job at work, or visiting with friends. A person’s religious belief did not enter into his reason for doing anything.
I doubt if he was concerned about acquiring rewards, or losing rewards, by impressing or disappointing a god.
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chockfull
My kids have seen the impact of a fundamentalist Christian cult on our lives and have experienced some of that as children.
They are very aware of the abuse involved with Way leadership and their treatment of us as ministers.
They will never go to anything related to Wierwille or the Way. That is 100 percent due to the actions of current and former leadership and their putrid example of Christianity.
They are grown and out of the house and exploring on their own growing and developing their own ideas and spiritual views and priorities.
I don’t worry about them being an “atheist” as that is a classification label used by judgmental fundamentalist Christians.
They have a respect for God and scripture an understanding of Christ and encouragement from us to explore what helps them most in life.
They are wonderful caring contributing members of society that are balanced and help others. One organized at their work a group making blankets for the homeless, which will help the homeless infinitely more than “the class” would.
I’m sure many would have questions about them but I don’t want to write a lot of personal details. They deserve the privacy of enjoying their lives without more cult backlash. That is another reason why I’m not writing a memoir.
I’m sure they will probably at some point get witnessed to or sent a postcard. They can respond with a puzzling look and a “no thank you”. Much better than an entangled life of lies and bondage.
Kids growing up in a cult have a special Dante’s Inferno they endure. Mine have. I need their adult lives to be free from that and not impacted by my decisions and goals. They certainly don’t need impact from any personal moglet ascension priorities which I don’t have unlike 98% of my former friends in the Way Corpse.
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Stayed Too Long
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chockfull
Sweet picking at my personal sharing. Who the f cares what Merriam-Webster says.
So I’m wrong I’m not worrying about them being an atheist according to a dictionary?
What about you? So you have kids? Are you married? What is your skin in the game in all this beyond “it occurred to me while driving”?
If you wanna raise kids via dictionaries then try it and tell me how it goes.
Thats the last personal info sharing I’m giving on this thread. And mostly why I don’t share personal things much here as there’s always that one person.
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Stayed Too Long
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chockfull
No you were not “merely pointing out” I’m not doing this again. I gave a reason for my personal past decision regarding kids.
You didn’t like that I said atheism is a label used to target by fundamentalist Christians. Is that statement untrue? No it is 100 percent true.
Then you twisted my statement and contradicted it by citing a dictionary and saying oooh no it wasn’t “started” by fundamentalist Christians.
I never said “started”.
I am going to stop posting personal details because God doesn’t want me casting pearls before swine.
You in the analogy are a jack@$$ that is represented by the swine comparison just to completely clarify.
I’m out.
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Stayed Too Long
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chockfull
Yeah. You don’t read apparently which adds to the issues.
Look back at your first response to me 3 posts up and tell me one more time how it’s my imagination you used the word “started” . It’s real hard to miss it’s the 9th word of your post.
Just to point out - when something real occurs but you deny it and accuse it being in someone’s imagination, that practice is called “gaslighting”
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Stayed Too Long
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chockfull
Hey anybody that technically performs the act of gaslighting is gaslighting. It sounds like you were triggered by hearing the definition of it.
Maybe you wanna blame your good buddy Merriam Webster.
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Rocky
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/gaslighting I don't believe chockfull's claim about inadvertently making mistakes constitutes gaslighting is at all correct.
Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting their memory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.
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Rocky
Please NOTE: this is an "I" statement. It is NOT an accusation about any aspect of chockfull's intentions, mental states/conditions, or actions is ANY way.
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Stayed Too Long
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chockfull
Oh look the gangs all here
I was going by Merriam Webster dictionary definition #2
“the act or practice of grossly misleading someone especially for one’s own advantage”
But thanks for playing.
PS I don’t buy your BS about inadvertently making mistakes. You know exactly what you are doing posting BS
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chockfull
Stayed I can’t copy your Bs from inside the box to answer. It’s so tedious to respond when you post like that where I can’t quote your post. It does obscure what you say so that you can deny it later. I find a number of those examples.
So tldr on the last one. Yes both you clowns are performing #2 definition right here.
And you’re both triggered.
You both are highly manipulative posters.
Rocky your apology was for contradicting me which 100% of the audience knows that wasn’t what I called you out on. And in the same post as your “apology” you called out my mental health in question. So you and your apology can ride out on the same horse.
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chockfull
What is an “I” statement and how do you distinguish it from sounding you are talking directly about the person you are posting about?
The easy question is “then why did you post it in the context of an argument except to infer association”?
Does an “I” statement mean that you are the one that represents the definition you posted?
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chockfull
So rather than cherry picking the definition why don’t you link the reference?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaslighting
Also if you actually read the entire article in Psychology today it’s real easy to identify the tactics I am mentioning getting people to doubt their own memory by feeding them misinformation.
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Rocky
https://www.bumc.bu.edu/facdev-medicine/files/2011/08/I-messages-handout.pdf
Thank you for asking.
When you are in conflict, you may have difficulty clearly articulating your situation without escalating the conflict. Using an “I” message (also known as an “assertiveness statement”) can help you state your concerns, feelings, and needs in a manner that is easier for the listener to hear and understand. An “I-statement” focuses on your own feelings and experiences. It does not focus on your perspective of what the other person has done or failed to do. It is the difference, for example, between saying, "I feel that I am not being permitted to participate in office projects to the extent that others are” and "You always let Marge work on office projects, but you never ask me if I’m interested.” If you can express your experience in a way that does not attack, criticize, or blame others, you are less likely to provoke defensiveness and hostility which tends to escalate conflicts, or have the other person shut-down or tune you out which tends to stifle communication. Ultimately, I-messages help create more opportunities for the resolution of conflict by creating more opportunities for constructive dialogue about the true sources of conflict.
That is but an excerpt of the handout linked above. Thank you for asking.
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Rocky
I have no insight about any aspect of your health, mental or otherwise.
I disagreed with you. I did not make any statement, implicit or explicit about you.
Not only did I refrain from making any assessment of any aspect of your life or health, I also did not make any statement about what you may or may not remember about anything. Further, I did not direct you to do or refrain from doing anything whatsoever.
I wish you only health and happiness.
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chockfull
I guess I need to go quote your post here too? Go review the post where you supposedly apologized and read it again. Like Stayed who first claimed to never have said “started”?
After reading the “I” statement article what I can say is “I feel like you two are gaslighting me because you deny previous posts and call them inadvertent mistakes and you forget and mischaracterize the content of previous posts to make yourselves look better”
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