We were told we would manifest the power of God. How many do you know really did? How many healing and miricles are you aware that news of such didn't come from a friend of a friend (a ministry urban legend) ?
You see, the truth of the matter is that we were never meant to manifest the power of God, to become successful. Because if we ever did manifest that power we would become to Independent and, in Saint Vic's mind, might no longer need him. So it was to his benefit to keep us in a cycle of failure which would keep us dependent on the ministry.
You would think God would want you to succeed and be a shining example of his love. Yet, the ministry was based on you failing.
Since breaking away from TWI and VPW’s control to keep you in a cycle of failure, have you begun to manifest the power of God, bringing about healings and miracles?
Since breaking away from TWI and VPW’s control to keep you in a cycle of failure, have you begun to manifest the power of God, bringing about healings and miracles?
And your point is...?
This is like Saint Vic preaching about unicorns and me saying we never were meant to have unicorns, so you respond: Since you left the ministry have you gotten any unicorns?
This is like Saint Vic preaching about unicorns and me saying we never were meant to have unicorns, so you respond: Since you left the ministry have you gotten any unicorns?
Let me ask you? Do you believe people can manifest God’s power?
This is like Saint Vic preaching about unicorns and me saying we never were meant to have unicorns, so you respond: Since you left the ministry have you gotten any unicorns?
I missed the teaching where Saint Vic was preaching about unicorns.
We were told we would manifest the power of God. How many do you know really did? How many healing and miricles are you aware that news of such didn't come from a friend of a friend (a ministry urban legend) ?
You see, the truth of the matter is that we were never meant to manifest the power of God, to become successful. Because if we ever did manifest that power we would become to Independent and, in Saint Vic's mind, might no longer need him. So it was to his benefit to keep us in a cycle of failure which would keep us dependent on the ministry.
You would think God would want you to succeed and be a shining example of his love. Yet, the ministry was based on you failing.
This reminds me of a fallacious adage I’ve long despised: Those who can’t do, teach.
There is a kernel of truth in that otherwise unenlightened cliché. A tremendous kernel. That’s riiight.
Has anyone examined their own contributions to threads like this? Do you think this kind of thing might have factored into the person who posted on reddit figuring s/he might not be able to find the answers sought for his/her early life in TWI?
Has anyone examined their own contributions to threads like this? Do you think this kind of thing might have factored into the person who posted on reddit figuring s/he might not be able to find the answers sought for his/her early life in TWI?
Just sayin'
I think you've got a good point there. If we're posting just to vent and make ourselves feel better, that looks different than if we're posting to make a point worth making, and maybe making a difference for someone who needs a little help but doesn't want to ask a complete stranger (or doesn't know how to- after twi, either is likely.)
We were told we would manifest the power of God. How many do you know really did? How many healing and miricles are you aware that news of such didn't come from a friend of a friend (a ministry urban legend) ?
You see, the truth of the matter is that we were never meant to manifest the power of God, to become successful. Because if we ever did manifest that power we would become to Independent and, in Saint Vic's mind, might no longer need him. So it was to his benefit to keep us in a cycle of failure which would keep us dependent on the ministry.
You would think God would want you to succeed and be a shining example of his love. Yet, the ministry was based on you failing.
An interesting point about vpw talking about power was that vpw usually ripped off other people's stories, other people's accounts of things happening, or he just made some up to support some point (his sole training was in HOMILETICS, or making stuff up.) So, we got accounts of him healing lots of people where there were no witnesses and no proof very far away.... and when he couldn't produce even a FEW of those locally with twi'ers, it was THEIR FAULT he couldn't do it because the people in India believed to get healed and the people in the US didn't.
So, vpw heals some imaginary people- or pretends he healed some real people, depending- and then when it doesn't happen here, he blames the people trying to get the deliverance. Things were never vpw's fault, to hear vpw say it.
Other times, he copied anecdotes from real Christians- which wasn't as common because he would lack details. But their accounts helped him fill in the details of the fictional accounts he allegedly performed.
If there is a Real God, this is NOT how He works, nor would He rely on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done. But you've heard He did- that's right, the con man insisted God Almighty worked through him and he was doing what God Almighty wanted. Looking back, do you still buy that one?
An interesting point about vpw talking about power was that vpw usually ripped off other people's stories, other people's accounts of things happening, or he just made some up to support some point (his sole training was in HOMILETICS, or making stuff up.) So, we got accounts of him healing lots of people where there were no witnesses and no proof very far away.... and when he couldn't produce even a FEW of those locally with twi'ers, it was THEIR FAULT he couldn't do it because the people in India believed to get healed and the people in the US didn't.
So, vpw heals some imaginary people- or pretends he healed some real people, depending- and then when it doesn't happen here, he blames the people trying to get the deliverance. Things were never vpw's fault, to hear vpw say it.
Other times, he copied anecdotes from real Christians- which wasn't as common because he would lack details. But their accounts helped him fill in the details of the fictional accounts he allegedly performed.
If there is a Real God, this is NOT how He works, nor would He rely on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done. But you've heard He did- that's right, the con man insisted God Almighty worked through him and he was doing what God Almighty wanted. Looking back, do you still buy that one?
No I do not. VPW clearly lied about so many things I don’t trust his accounts anywhere. I think he had other motives for many things like the India trip, chimes hour, etc.
PFAL included an extended account of a man with a withered hand being healed just like Jesus did. That account has logistical holes in it but the homiletic reason for making it up is very clear.
Calling himself “The Teacher” and “The Doctor” are narcissistic terms that also play into his constructed persona.
His true personality was narcissistic, mean, and entitled.
Let me ask you? Do you believe people can manifest God’s power?
A more pertinent question would be: do I believe people in the Way manifest God's power? The answer is no.
I think most of the upper structure knew the whole thing was a con, they just went along with it for whatever they could gain out of it, al la Rummy Michens in Major Barbara .
An interesting point about vpw talking about power was that vpw usually ripped off other people's stories, other people's accounts of things happening, or he just made some up to support some point (his sole training was in HOMILETICS, or making stuff up.) So, we got accounts of him healing lots of people where there were no witnesses and no proof very far away.... and when he couldn't produce even a FEW of those locally with twi'ers, it was THEIR FAULT he couldn't do it because the people in India believed to get healed and the people in the US didn't.
So, vpw heals some imaginary people- or pretends he healed some real people, depending- and then when it doesn't happen here, he blames the people trying to get the deliverance. Things were never vpw's fault, to hear vpw say it.
Other times, he copied anecdotes from real Christians- which wasn't as common because he would lack details. But their accounts helped him fill in the details of the fictional accounts he allegedly performed.
If there is a Real God, this is NOT how He works, nor would He rely on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done. But you've heard He did- that's right, the con man insisted God Almighty worked through him and he was doing what God Almighty wanted. Looking back, do you still buy that one?
“If there is a Real God……”. what a tremendous statement.
Why would a loving God allow His people to be tricked by con-men and hoaxsters? Has he enjoyed watching the suffering all the folks at GSC have had to endure at the hands of VPW? Why has He just sat back allowing such mental and physical anguish and pain? So many woman this loving God has watched as they were sexually abused by the leaders supposedly representing Him.
I guess we are supposed to believe there is this supreme being floating around some place in the vast universe He created. Not only does he monitor our every action, but also our every thought. Not just your and mine actions and thoughts, but every person who has ever lived, and will ever live. And He keeps track of every action and thought, good or bad. If the thoughts are good He will lay some nice rewards on us at the end of time. If they are bad, forget it….you will be cast into the ever unquenching fires of hell for eternal suffering.
We were told we would manifest the power of God. How many do you know really did? How many healing and miricles are you aware that news of such didn't come from a friend of a friend (a ministry urban legend) ?
You see, the truth of the matter is that we were never meant to manifest the power of God, to become successful. Because if we ever did manifest that power we would become to Independent and, in Saint Vic's mind, might no longer need him. So it was to his benefit to keep us in a cycle of failure which would keep us dependent on the ministry.
You would think God would want you to succeed and be a shining example of his love. Yet, the ministry was based on you failing.
I dont know much about what manifesting the power of God actually is for TWI...I tend to think manifesting the power of God for TWI means a person can believe to get stuff so they can give stuff to the way international.
What has happened in my life is God has worked mightily in my life before, during, and after the way international...especially after TWI. And yes: signs miracles and wonders. God is not bound by the way international, or anyone's believeing for that matter. God is not bound at all and the way international does not accurately represent him or know him. Most people rationalize God away and deny his existance...strange wonder they "see" no signs miracles and wonders....even if God did them they would get rationalized away as something else.
Quite obviuosly I have been looking for answers and have presented questions on this forum. Most of my questions have been written in the form of sarcasm, expressing my belief there is no god. But, if you have the answers why all the suffering is allowed to go on, please lay them out. Just grab one question and explain it to me.
...when it doesn't happen here, he blames the people trying to get the deliverance. Things were never vpw's fault, to hear vpw say it.
Other times, he copied anecdotes from real Christians- which wasn't as common because he would lack details. But their accounts helped him fill in the details of the fictional accounts he allegedly performed.
If there is a Real God, this is NOT how He works, nor would He rely on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done. But you've heard He did- that's right, the con man insisted God Almighty worked through him and he was doing what God Almighty wanted. Looking back, do you still buy that one?
No, I do not still buy that one.
However, your post raises different questions. Reasonably so.
I would hope TWIers who still believe could muster the courage and rational reasoning to respond.
As to relying on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done, it seems to suggest a negative response to you musing about whether "there is a Real God."
Human history suggests many cultures believed in a god or gods. I would ask how and why there's so much variation throughout the millennia.
Neal de Grasse Tyson has suggested answers to such questions. He's a smart and very thoughtful guy (scientist)
However, your post raises different questions. Reasonably so.
I would hope TWIers who still believe could muster the courage and rational reasoning to respond.
As to relying on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done, it seems to suggest a negative response to you musing about whether "there is a Real God."
Human history suggests many cultures believed in a god or gods. I would ask how and why there's so much variation throughout the millennia.
Neal de Grasse Tyson has suggested answers to such questions. He's a smart and very thoughtful guy (scientist)
I watched the “Why Do We Fear Death,” video 4 or 5 times and did not observe any explanation as to why past cultures believed in different Gods through the ages.
DeGrasse did say science does not address heaven, hell, or our past ancestors. His dying concern will be laying on his death bed and not having done enough to make man kind a better place. I went away reassured science does not find the existence for any god.
I watched the “Why Do We Fear Death,” video 4 or 5 times and did not observe any explanation as to why past cultures believed in different Gods through the ages.
DeGrasse Tyson did say science does not address heaven, hell, or our past ancestors. His dying concern will be laying on his death bed and not having done enough to make man kind a better place. I went away reassured science does not find the existence for any god.
Human history suggests many cultures believed in a god or gods.
So, I take it you're asking for clarification?
I apologize if I implied that was something Dr Tyson suggested.
I'm thankful you viewed the video multiple times.
Not everything I've learned over the 37 years since I left Victor Wierwille's cult could possibly be included in or explained by even the most brilliant American astrophysicist.
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Stayed Too Long
Since breaking away from TWI and VPW’s control to keep you in a cycle of failure, have you begun to manifest the power of God, bringing about healings and miracles?
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So_crates
And your point is...?
This is like Saint Vic preaching about unicorns and me saying we never were meant to have unicorns, so you respond: Since you left the ministry have you gotten any unicorns?
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Stayed Too Long
Let me ask you? Do you believe people can manifest God’s power?
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Stayed Too Long
I missed the teaching where Saint Vic was preaching about unicorns.
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chockfull
Let me ask you, what does this post have to do with TWI? It more belongs in the “About Faith” sections where people talk about their beliefs or not.
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Nathan_Jr
This reminds me of a fallacious adage I’ve long despised: Those who can’t do, teach.
There is a kernel of truth in that otherwise unenlightened cliché. A tremendous kernel. That’s riiight.
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Rocky
Has anyone examined their own contributions to threads like this? Do you think this kind of thing might have factored into the person who posted on reddit figuring s/he might not be able to find the answers sought for his/her early life in TWI?
Just sayin'
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WordWolf
I think you've got a good point there. If we're posting just to vent and make ourselves feel better, that looks different than if we're posting to make a point worth making, and maybe making a difference for someone who needs a little help but doesn't want to ask a complete stranger (or doesn't know how to- after twi, either is likely.)
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WordWolf
An interesting point about vpw talking about power was that vpw usually ripped off other people's stories, other people's accounts of things happening, or he just made some up to support some point (his sole training was in HOMILETICS, or making stuff up.) So, we got accounts of him healing lots of people where there were no witnesses and no proof very far away.... and when he couldn't produce even a FEW of those locally with twi'ers, it was THEIR FAULT he couldn't do it because the people in India believed to get healed and the people in the US didn't.
So, vpw heals some imaginary people- or pretends he healed some real people, depending- and then when it doesn't happen here, he blames the people trying to get the deliverance. Things were never vpw's fault, to hear vpw say it.
Other times, he copied anecdotes from real Christians- which wasn't as common because he would lack details. But their accounts helped him fill in the details of the fictional accounts he allegedly performed.
If there is a Real God, this is NOT how He works, nor would He rely on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done. But you've heard He did- that's right, the con man insisted God Almighty worked through him and he was doing what God Almighty wanted. Looking back, do you still buy that one?
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chockfull
No I do not. VPW clearly lied about so many things I don’t trust his accounts anywhere. I think he had other motives for many things like the India trip, chimes hour, etc.
PFAL included an extended account of a man with a withered hand being healed just like Jesus did. That account has logistical holes in it but the homiletic reason for making it up is very clear.
Calling himself “The Teacher” and “The Doctor” are narcissistic terms that also play into his constructed persona.
His true personality was narcissistic, mean, and entitled.
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So_crates
A more pertinent question would be: do I believe people in the Way manifest God's power? The answer is no.
I think most of the upper structure knew the whole thing was a con, they just went along with it for whatever they could gain out of it, al la Rummy Michens in Major Barbara .
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Stayed Too Long
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cman
if you thought to really find answers, you would
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Nathan_Jr
“This is a class on how…H-O-W”
OK. Show me...
Oh.
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OldSkool
I dont know much about what manifesting the power of God actually is for TWI...I tend to think manifesting the power of God for TWI means a person can believe to get stuff so they can give stuff to the way international.
What has happened in my life is God has worked mightily in my life before, during, and after the way international...especially after TWI. And yes: signs miracles and wonders. God is not bound by the way international, or anyone's believeing for that matter. God is not bound at all and the way international does not accurately represent him or know him. Most people rationalize God away and deny his existance...strange wonder they "see" no signs miracles and wonders....even if God did them they would get rationalized away as something else.
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Stayed Too Long
Quite obviuosly I have been looking for answers and have presented questions on this forum. Most of my questions have been written in the form of sarcasm, expressing my belief there is no god. But, if you have the answers why all the suffering is allowed to go on, please lay them out. Just grab one question and explain it to me.
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cman
The only one to answer your questions is the one lord you said you don't believe
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Stayed Too Long
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cman
No. Your problems are yours not mine. It's on you not me or anyone else.
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Stayed Too Long
Gottcha. Fair enough.
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Rocky
No, I do not still buy that one.
However, your post raises different questions. Reasonably so.
I would hope TWIers who still believe could muster the courage and rational reasoning to respond.
As to relying on con-men and hoaxsters to get the job done, it seems to suggest a negative response to you musing about whether "there is a Real God."
Human history suggests many cultures believed in a god or gods. I would ask how and why there's so much variation throughout the millennia.
Neal de Grasse Tyson has suggested answers to such questions. He's a smart and very thoughtful guy (scientist)
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Stayed Too Long
I watched the “Why Do We Fear Death,” video 4 or 5 times and did not observe any explanation as to why past cultures believed in different Gods through the ages.
DeGrasse did say science does not address heaven, hell, or our past ancestors. His dying concern will be laying on his death bed and not having done enough to make man kind a better place. I went away reassured science does not find the existence for any god.
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Stayed Too Long
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Rocky
So, I take it you're asking for clarification?
I apologize if I implied that was something Dr Tyson suggested.
I'm thankful you viewed the video multiple times.
Not everything I've learned over the 37 years since I left Victor Wierwille's cult could possibly be included in or explained by even the most brilliant American astrophysicist.
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