I heard someone say, “Forgiveness is the forgiver absorbing the price…”
(Usually, the phrase is absorbing the COST. Cost and price are not the same.)
Any thoughts on this? The forgiver absorbs the cost/price.
First thought that comes to mind is if someone does you wrong or offends you, it usually means they have taken something from you such as your health if one attacks you; your sense of safety if one threatens you; your money if one robs you; your reputation if one slanders you, etc. Since your health, sense of safety, etc. have value in your life, taking them away would mean a loss for you. Forgiving the offender without demanding repayment would then mean you absorbed the cost of that loss.
Biblically speaking, Jesus absorbed the price of our sins when he redeemed us through his blood (Col 1:14).
Also, when Jesus taught about forgiveness in Matthew 18, he used the example of a king whose servant owed him money. Verses 26-27 says, "The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt." The king absorbed the loss which was priced at ten thousand talents.
I heard someone say, “Forgiveness is the forgiver absorbing the price…”
(Usually, the phrase is absorbing the COST. Cost and price are not the same.)
Any thoughts on this? The forgiver absorbs the cost/price.
Yes. As Way Corps I always absorbed the cost. The cost of paying rent on a church that people can act however they want in multiple times a week. They can destroy my property, criticize me, treat my family members poorly, then complain to leadership and I get in trouble.
I absorbed the cost of having to quit jobs and find new ones in short periods of time. Of moving across the country but they wouldn't even pay for a motel to spread a trip out after a flunkie says “God wants you rested”.
I absorbed the cost of being Way Corps where a large percentage of your group you are in charge of is former dropped Corps or alumni who feel it wasn't fair so have to target you with all their killed dreams.
I absorbed the cost of fools in high places making idiotic business decisions that affected me and never apologized but just continued to expect unquestioning obedience at every subsequent idiotic decision.
I absorbed the cost of following megalomaniacs for decades.
In fact if you had to sum up my experience in Twi it could be done with the words “absorbing cost”.
Forgiveness? Like being in a relationship with a narcissist it is a one way street.
When looking back on twi, we now see how much of it was operating as a cult as well as how much we followed their practices and doctrines believing we were doing God's will. As for now, scriptures say the following holds true.
God is not unrighteous to forget our work and labour of love which we showed in his name when we ministered to the believers and brought unbelievers to Christ. These treasures (rewards) are stored in heaven for us where they cannot be corrupted or stolen.
What things we did lose or were kept from having because of twi's hardheartedness, greed, lust, idolatry, etc. (Gal 5 has the full list), God is willing to heal, restore and give to us when we put our trust in him.
God has forgiven us for the sin in our lives during that time once we acknowledged them to him.
I'm sure others could add to this list or contest to it. The point is there is comfort in knowing that not all of our time back in twi is a complete loss in God's eyes.
I absorbed the cost of fools in high places making idiotic business decisions that affected me and never apologized but just continued to expect unquestioning obedience at every subsequent idiotic decision.
I absorbed the cost of following megalomaniacs for decades.
In fact if you had to sum up my experience in Twi it could be done with the words “absorbing cost”.
Forgiveness? Like being in a relationship with a narcissist it is a one way street.
Poignant AND salient. And eloquent. Thanks for posting it.
I'm also confident that ultimately forgiveness is for the person doing the forgiving.
Philosophically, the entire premise of Christianity is wrapped around the concept of redemption, isn't it?
From my perspective these days, it seems early homo sapiens probably developed awareness of humanity's emotional and behavioral awkwardness and frailty. They had to come up with both an origin story or (myth) and a way to overcome the human tendency to hurt other people they cared about.
Jesus wasn't the first or only person or character to meet that need.
there is power in forgiveness, super powerful healing from within
Jesus said the man's sins were forgiven and healed him
2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
Ephesians chapter one plus much more.....
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Philosophically, the entire premise of Christianity is wrapped around the concept of redemption, isn't it?
From my perspective these days, it seems early homo sapiens probably developed awareness of humanity's emotional and behavioral awkwardness and frailty. They had to come up with both an origin story or (myth) and a way to overcome the human tendency to hurt other people they cared about.
Jesus wasn't the first or only person or character to meet that need.
IDK, I'm just thinking "out loud" so to speak.
Well it seems like the next logical premise after you stated your confidence in how forgiveness was for the individual. If that is true it should logically extend to the purpose for Jesus forgiving people would it not?
But instead of following that logic now two posts later you contradict what you were confident in previously.
Rocky, there was a legitimate point there- you didn't make a distinction between two things that can sound similar but are very different things. Please spell out the differences for those following along at home.
If one is forgiven by another, yet still won’t forgive oneself, how powerful is the forgiveness from another?
I’m not suggesting there is no power in another’s (Jesus’) forgiveness of our sins, but I am observing the brutality of self condemnation that may linger in spite of being forgiven by another.
If I have hurt my brother, but I repent and I change and I seek to amend and I seek forgiveness from him, but he still won’t forgive me, who remains in bondage?
I don't think it's a mind game, maybe before the actual experience of being forgiven. Christ forgiving is without anything left behind without remorse or second thoughts.
So being forgiven by Christ involves forgiving oneself? Or Christ’s forgiveness allows self forgiveness? Or Christ’s forgiveness effectuates self forgiveness?
Well it seems like the next logical premise after you stated your confidence in how forgiveness was for the individual. If that is true it should logically extend to the purpose for Jesus forgiving people would it not?
But instead of following that logic now two posts later you contradict what you were confident in previously.
Logic is a framework for thinking and analysis, sure. I don't see it as chains on a person's ability to understand life. So yes, I contradicted something. But I tried to explain why I believe it was warranted.
Was Einstein always correct in everything he believed and propounded?
Rocky, there was a legitimate point there- you didn't make a distinction between two things that can sound similar but are very different things. Please spell out the differences for those following along at home.
Indeed. The general concept of humans forgiving others is not directly related to the Christian notion of redemption.
I don't believe it is possible for ME to clearly spell out the differences in an online forum.
I'm comfortable with the ambiguity involved in trying to understand the different situations. I'd have to apologize if someone reading/following along at home is not.
I appreciate the request for clarification. All I can say at this point is I see them as very different concepts.
Christian redemption is one thing.
What individual humans must do to unburden themselves from emotional situations in which they hold a grudge against another human is entirely a different concept.
Also, to understand this, shouldn't we figure out whether Christ has forgiven anyone? As I understand it, hasn't GOD forgiven each believer as a cleansing at the point of accepting Jesus as Lord?
Look, I'm confident I'm not going to satisfy everyone. Whether they are satisfied by trapping me in a gotcha, is also a different situation. I don't know if that's what anyone's getting at here, but if it is, it's no skin off my nose.
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WordWolf
It does seem evident that the sinner's REPENTANCE is a necessary part of the equation. We forgive IF HE REPENTS. If he continues in sin and demands forgiveness regardless, that's nothing at all l
chockfull
Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective. The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves. They did not
OldSkool
The real crux of the issue is offshoots using this garbage as an excuse to keep the cash cow running and preservinvg their jobs. Of course offshoots and anyone still idolizing false prophet wierwille
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Nathan_Jr
I heard someone say, “Forgiveness is the forgiver absorbing the price…”
(Usually, the phrase is absorbing the COST. Cost and price are not the same.)
Any thoughts on this? The forgiver absorbs the cost/price.
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Charity
First thought that comes to mind is if someone does you wrong or offends you, it usually means they have taken something from you such as your health if one attacks you; your sense of safety if one threatens you; your money if one robs you; your reputation if one slanders you, etc. Since your health, sense of safety, etc. have value in your life, taking them away would mean a loss for you. Forgiving the offender without demanding repayment would then mean you absorbed the cost of that loss.
Biblically speaking, Jesus absorbed the price of our sins when he redeemed us through his blood (Col 1:14).
Also, when Jesus taught about forgiveness in Matthew 18, he used the example of a king whose servant owed him money. Verses 26-27 says, "The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt." The king absorbed the loss which was priced at ten thousand talents.
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cman
how often is this seen
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chockfull
Yes. As Way Corps I always absorbed the cost. The cost of paying rent on a church that people can act however they want in multiple times a week. They can destroy my property, criticize me, treat my family members poorly, then complain to leadership and I get in trouble.
I absorbed the cost of having to quit jobs and find new ones in short periods of time. Of moving across the country but they wouldn't even pay for a motel to spread a trip out after a flunkie says “God wants you rested”.
I absorbed the cost of being Way Corps where a large percentage of your group you are in charge of is former dropped Corps or alumni who feel it wasn't fair so have to target you with all their killed dreams.
I absorbed the cost of fools in high places making idiotic business decisions that affected me and never apologized but just continued to expect unquestioning obedience at every subsequent idiotic decision.
I absorbed the cost of following megalomaniacs for decades.
In fact if you had to sum up my experience in Twi it could be done with the words “absorbing cost”.
Forgiveness? Like being in a relationship with a narcissist it is a one way street.
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Charity
When looking back on twi, we now see how much of it was operating as a cult as well as how much we followed their practices and doctrines believing we were doing God's will. As for now, scriptures say the following holds true.
I'm sure others could add to this list or contest to it. The point is there is comfort in knowing that not all of our time back in twi is a complete loss in God's eyes.
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Rocky
Poignant AND salient. And eloquent. Thanks for posting it.
I'm also confident that ultimately forgiveness is for the person doing the forgiving.
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cman
So....when Christ forgives, is it for himself?
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Rocky
Why would/could that be the case?
Philosophically, the entire premise of Christianity is wrapped around the concept of redemption, isn't it?
From my perspective these days, it seems early homo sapiens probably developed awareness of humanity's emotional and behavioral awkwardness and frailty. They had to come up with both an origin story or (myth) and a way to overcome the human tendency to hurt other people they cared about.
Jesus wasn't the first or only person or character to meet that need.
IDK, I'm just thinking "out loud" so to speak.
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cman
there is power in forgiveness, super powerful healing from within
Jesus said the man's sins were forgiven and healed him
2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
Ephesians chapter one plus much more.....
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
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chockfull
Well it seems like the next logical premise after you stated your confidence in how forgiveness was for the individual. If that is true it should logically extend to the purpose for Jesus forgiving people would it not?
But instead of following that logic now two posts later you contradict what you were confident in previously.
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WordWolf
Apples and oranges.
Rocky, there was a legitimate point there- you didn't make a distinction between two things that can sound similar but are very different things. Please spell out the differences for those following along at home.
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Nathan_Jr
If one is forgiven by another, yet still won’t forgive oneself, how powerful is the forgiveness from another?
I’m not suggesting there is no power in another’s (Jesus’) forgiveness of our sins, but I am observing the brutality of self condemnation that may linger in spite of being forgiven by another.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Nathan_Jr
Is forgiveness liberating? For whom?
If I have hurt my brother, but I repent and I change and I seek to amend and I seek forgiveness from him, but he still won’t forgive me, who remains in bondage?
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cman
I don't think it's a mind game, maybe before the actual experience of being forgiven. Christ forgiving is without anything left behind without remorse or second thoughts.
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Nathan_Jr
I don’t think it’s a game, either.
So being forgiven by Christ involves forgiving oneself? Or Christ’s forgiveness allows self forgiveness? Or Christ’s forgiveness effectuates self forgiveness?
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Rocky
Logic is a framework for thinking and analysis, sure. I don't see it as chains on a person's ability to understand life. So yes, I contradicted something. But I tried to explain why I believe it was warranted.
Was Einstein always correct in everything he believed and propounded?
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cman
It's a complete deal. Why fight it? You can, if you want to drive yourself nuts.
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cman
Christ is not something separated from us.
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Rocky
Indeed. The general concept of humans forgiving others is not directly related to the Christian notion of redemption.
I don't believe it is possible for ME to clearly spell out the differences in an online forum.
I'm comfortable with the ambiguity involved in trying to understand the different situations. I'd have to apologize if someone reading/following along at home is not.
I appreciate the request for clarification. All I can say at this point is I see them as very different concepts.
Christian redemption is one thing.
What individual humans must do to unburden themselves from emotional situations in which they hold a grudge against another human is entirely a different concept.
I apologize if that doesn't satisfy any reader.
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Rocky
Also, to understand this, shouldn't we figure out whether Christ has forgiven anyone? As I understand it, hasn't GOD forgiven each believer as a cleansing at the point of accepting Jesus as Lord?
Look, I'm confident I'm not going to satisfy everyone. Whether they are satisfied by trapping me in a gotcha, is also a different situation. I don't know if that's what anyone's getting at here, but if it is, it's no skin off my nose.
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Rocky
Yes, apples and oranges.
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Nathan_Jr
I don't disagree.
If this is the case, then Christ's forgiveness is self forgiveness.
If Christ is present within, or, more emphatically, powerfully, Christ is inseparable from us, then the forgiver is the forgiven.
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Rocky
Wow! From a logic perspective, that would seem reasonable.
I view the Bible as an anthology of stories. Stories don't generally adhere to logic formats.
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cman
it has to be seen, experienced to believe it, yes from the inside but also bigger than that even
forgiveness is so big that it's hard to comprehend, or put into words
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