I dont know about you being a troll or not and dont really care. However, there is a simple solution to said problem of former TWI leaders when it comes to wierwille and his issues. Honesty. Just admit the man was a con and some of the things he taught are true and Biblical. Repudiate the lies and distance oneself from his sins. Its not feasible to expect everyone to sit around in sack cloth and ashes in memory of wierwille. Of the three offshoots mentioned STFI, TLTF, and CFF all three groups top leaders were the ones who told me to forgive and forget wierwille's sins and dont throw out the baby with the bath water. I dont know if these guys take notes from each other, or share the same playbook. Their last names were Gallagher, Lynn, and Guigou. All said the same thing to me. My healing depended on forgiving the way international and those who wronged me. And again, utter BS. My healing depended on my repentance and asking forgiveness for myself for being involved with a false prophet and spreading his lies. Thats where my freedom came from. Ive long since forgiven all things TWI and it made little difference in my day to day life. What made all the difference was accepting peace with my creator. God almighty, which many of you now say doesnt exist.
When you forgave all things TWI, do you think God forgave all their offences against you as well?
The reason I'm asking OldSkool is that often the word "forgive" is used when we mean we have stopped feeling resentment against the offender which is different from "absolving" someone of any blame, guilt or responsibility for their wrongdoings.
I believe this exchange of yours and mine on this subject starkly (or not?) illustrates and illuminates the inherent limitation of communication without access to each other's non-verbal cues. i.e tone of voice, inflection, facial expressions etc.
I only point this out for your readers and mine (likely only on this topic/thread) to hold in mind that we're inherently not contradicting each other or criticizing each other or otherwise INTENDING to cause any "negative" emotion.
If I could devise a way for us to more fully communicate on GSC or any other online print only forum in ways that would be less likely to cause misunderstandings and be more likely to foster compassion and forgiveness... well, maybe I'd be able to get rich. Then again, that wouldn't be my goal/objective anyway.
Very true. Online communications on an anon forums is difficult, especially in topics we are emotionally invested in such as those prevelant on GSC. Since the latest round of Mike wars Ive really desired to stop the bickering and I have. Im doing my best to stay objective and not get into the know you are but what am I type arguments that you guys warned me would ensue...lol. Peace all!
When you forgave all things TWI, do you think God forgave all their offences against you as well?
The reason I'm asking OldSkool is that often the word "forgive" is used when we mean we have stopped feeling resentment against the offender which is different from "absolving" someone of any blame, guilt or responsibility for their wrongdoings.
No I dont. I dont think that at all based on the premise that without true repentance and an actual change on the offending party God will not forgive. He allowed his son to die for the sins of all...what else does he need to do? Rhetorical of course but its food for thought. God has moved and most people wont accept God's peace offering by giving his only begotton son for remission of sins. TWI still has an unsettled account but its not my account as Ive forgiven them...from here the Lord can decide how this all sorts out and in the end they are still my brethren in Christ, even though they are a corrupt organization. It would be great, say for example, that Charity wronged me and she could obtain forgiveness by me forgiving her. Forgiveness comes by true repentance and making amends where possible. I live this way faithfully and to the letter as a recovering alcoholic. Ive spent the last several years living exactly what Im preaching. And thus, I am forgiven of my many grevious sins and am at peace with God and Christ.
To me practically I approach this topic from a “cast your cares upon Me” type of perspective towards Jesus Christ. I toss the concerns about the need for petty revenge upstairs and let him sort it all out. Then the Searcher of Hearts will be the one to determine the need for forgiveness or repaid vengeance in His time.
I ain’t got time to carry that load of depression and anger around - screw that haul it to the dump and move on lighter in the heart.
Now you expect me to figure out what will help you understand rhetorical questions? Come on.
No I expect you to be sharp enough to know I understand what rhetorical questions are and have been responding to you with them since you criticized me for responding to your rhetorical questions.
You didn’t pick up on it and have been doing exactly what you criticized me for over the last 3 interactions. Answering rhetorical questions.
No I expect you to be sharp enough to know I understand what rhetorical questions are and have been responding to you with them since you criticized me for responding to your rhetorical questions.
You didn’t pick up on it and have been doing exactly what you criticized me for over the last 3 interactions. Answering rhetorical questions.
Your expectations about me constitute fantasy scenarios between your own ears. You sound like Mike when you accuse people of failing to read your mind.
I read your words.
When a reader fails to understand your intended message, why do you think it's because of anything other than you not conveying what you intended to convey.
Really, you DO sound like Mike.
But if you drop the tangential malarkey, I'll forgive you.
Your expectations about me constitute fantasy scenarios between your own ears. You sound like Mike when you accuse people of failing to read your mind.
I read your words.
When a reader fails to understand your intended message, why do you think it's because of anything other than you not conveying what you intended to convey.
Really, you DO sound like Mike.
But if you drop the tangential malarkey, I'll forgive you.
Or maybe you can stop criticizing people for stupid things like possibly responding to a rhetorical question. That is you failing to convey your message in a logical and kind manner.
You really thrive on criticizing my posts.
Saying that I sound like Mike is beyond that and simply delusional. My response is you can kiss my entire @$$.
My words included 3 rhetorical questions similar to the ones you criticized me for answering. But you can’t take someone giving you the same back.
You are remarkably thin skinned for someone that is that obnoxiously critical.
Forgive me or not I really could care less. Trying to control someone’s behavior with forgiveness or not is called manipulation. You started the tangential crap with picking at me so you got it back. I’ll stop when you do.
Or maybe you can stop criticizing people for stupid things like possibly responding to a rhetorical question. That is you failing to convey your message in a logical and kind manner.
You really thrive on criticizing my posts.
Saying that I sound like Mike is beyond that and simply delusional. My response is you can kiss my entire @$$.
My words included 3 rhetorical questions similar to the ones you criticized me for answering. But you can’t take someone giving you the same back.
You are remarkably thin skinned for someone that is that obnoxiously critical.
Forgive me or not I really could care less. Trying to control someone’s behavior with forgiveness or not is called manipulation. You started the tangential crap with picking at me so you got it back. I’ll stop when you do.
That is remarkably hostile projection, btw.
How is your message going to help people trying to escape TWI?
Oh, and who's criticizing whom?
I'm confident, however, that you understood my message but just don't like it.
How is your message going to help people trying to escape TWI?
Oh, and who's criticizing whom?
I'm confident, however, that you understood my message but just don't like it.
Ummm that would be you criticizing me and comparing me to people and calling me names.
I’m confident that you want to be the king of this website and somehow feel threatened when I post a lot here so you pretty much revert to criticizing me or attacking my posts in some fashion. You have way more posts here than anyone else by a long shot.
No I didn’t understand your comparison of me to Mike other than understanding it’s a delusion of yours to push my buttons. If it’s logical then please explain more about how I’m like Mike.
I don’t have any message or mission to help people escape TWI. People have to do that for themselves.
Oh and in the context of this argument it is fairly apparent that you do intend the Dostoyevsky post to be aimed at me despite your oooh it’s not aimed at anyone disclaimer. So that is you lying about it to your audience.
I respect those whose actions and words garner respect. If your words do not perhaps you should look within.
There is NO reason I would feel threatened by you.
Me lying? Really?
Please just stop it.
Then why do you consistently single out and criticize my posts? You certainly do that and I’m not allowing you to gaslight me on this.
You explain.
You still haven’t explained how I’m like Mike logically.
And yes lying. Explain the Dostoyevsky post in the midst of this back and forth. Or answer directly. Do you feel that quote is something I represent? It certainly appears that way in context. Oooh but no that’s coincidental. How does it relate to forgiveness then?
Then why do you consistently single out and criticize my posts? You certainly do that and I’m not allowing you to gaslight me on this.
You explain.
You still haven’t explained how I’m like Mike logically.
And yes lying. Explain the Dostoyevsky post in the midst of this back and forth. Or answer directly. Do you feel that quote is something I represent? It certainly appears that way in context. Oooh but no that’s coincidental. How does it relate to forgiveness then?
Dude... chill. I don't try to control or give orders to you. I don't take orders from you.
I don't have the foggiest idea why you get so upset.
But if you want me to explain anything, please spell out how, why and what have I written/said that you believe I was untruthful or counterfactual.
I just did spell it out. The repeated question is gaslighting. Please explain what I asked in my previous post without all the BS.
I am not upset I am just not letting your BS criticism go unmentioned this time.
Maybe you are projecting how upset you are onto me.
I’ll repeat it
1. Explain constant criticism singling me out
2. Explain calling me Mike or just like him
3. Explain Dostoyevsky post and how it relates to forgiveness and why it was brought up
Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting their memory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.
----
Asking rhetorical questions does not qualify as gaslighting, as I understand it. I will explain this. Rhetorical questions are NOT me feeding you false information (or lies). They are for you to answer your own damn questions.
And again, I don't take or obey orders from you.
Did your parents ever explain that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?
Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting their memory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.
----
Asking rhetorical questions does not qualify as gaslighting, as I understand it. I will explain this. Rhetorical questions are NOT me feeding you false information (or lies). They are for you to answer your own damn questions.
And again, I don't take or obey orders from you.
Did your parents ever explain that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?
Referencing back to my previous posts on forgiveness, here is what Jesus taught in Luke 17:3-4
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he trespasses against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
In vs 3, the need to admonish the believer as to what action against you was sinful is noteworthy. The offender is then in the position to make a choice as to whether to repent or not and if they do, then we are to forgive them.
The word "repent" means "to change one's mind or purpose."
Verse 4 brings different scenarios to my mind, but I'll let the verse speak for itself.
Obviously, in twi, confronting leaders was worthy of condemnation and repentance was not a practice you saw modelled by leaders, yet followers were expected to be unconditionally forgiving.
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WordWolf
It does seem evident that the sinner's REPENTANCE is a necessary part of the equation. We forgive IF HE REPENTS. If he continues in sin and demands forgiveness regardless, that's nothing at all l
chockfull
Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective. The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves. They did not
OldSkool
The real crux of the issue is offshoots using this garbage as an excuse to keep the cash cow running and preservinvg their jobs. Of course offshoots and anyone still idolizing false prophet wierwille
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chockfull
So I should stop answering your rhetorical questions then?
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Rocky
Do you understand the concept of rhetorical questions?
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chockfull
Will I understand them better by you answering mine?
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Charity
When you forgave all things TWI, do you think God forgave all their offences against you as well?
The reason I'm asking OldSkool is that often the word "forgive" is used when we mean we have stopped feeling resentment against the offender which is different from "absolving" someone of any blame, guilt or responsibility for their wrongdoings.
Edited by Charityto clarify my question
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OldSkool
Very true. Online communications on an anon forums is difficult, especially in topics we are emotionally invested in such as those prevelant on GSC. Since the latest round of Mike wars Ive really desired to stop the bickering and I have. Im doing my best to stay objective and not get into the know you are but what am I type arguments that you guys warned me would ensue...lol. Peace all!
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OldSkool
No I dont. I dont think that at all based on the premise that without true repentance and an actual change on the offending party God will not forgive. He allowed his son to die for the sins of all...what else does he need to do? Rhetorical of course but its food for thought. God has moved and most people wont accept God's peace offering by giving his only begotton son for remission of sins. TWI still has an unsettled account but its not my account as Ive forgiven them...from here the Lord can decide how this all sorts out and in the end they are still my brethren in Christ, even though they are a corrupt organization. It would be great, say for example, that Charity wronged me and she could obtain forgiveness by me forgiving her. Forgiveness comes by true repentance and making amends where possible. I live this way faithfully and to the letter as a recovering alcoholic. Ive spent the last several years living exactly what Im preaching. And thus, I am forgiven of my many grevious sins and am at peace with God and Christ.
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chockfull
To me practically I approach this topic from a “cast your cares upon Me” type of perspective towards Jesus Christ. I toss the concerns about the need for petty revenge upstairs and let him sort it all out. Then the Searcher of Hearts will be the one to determine the need for forgiveness or repaid vengeance in His time.
I ain’t got time to carry that load of depression and anger around - screw that haul it to the dump and move on lighter in the heart.
Whatever. The approach works ok for me.
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Rocky
Now you expect me to figure out what will help you understand rhetorical questions? Come on.
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OldSkool
We need more cow bell....
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chockfull
No I expect you to be sharp enough to know I understand what rhetorical questions are and have been responding to you with them since you criticized me for responding to your rhetorical questions.
You didn’t pick up on it and have been doing exactly what you criticized me for over the last 3 interactions. Answering rhetorical questions.
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Rocky
Your expectations about me constitute fantasy scenarios between your own ears. You sound like Mike when you accuse people of failing to read your mind.
I read your words.
When a reader fails to understand your intended message, why do you think it's because of anything other than you not conveying what you intended to convey.
Really, you DO sound like Mike.
But if you drop the tangential malarkey, I'll forgive you.
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chockfull
Or maybe you can stop criticizing people for stupid things like possibly responding to a rhetorical question. That is you failing to convey your message in a logical and kind manner.
You really thrive on criticizing my posts.
Saying that I sound like Mike is beyond that and simply delusional. My response is you can kiss my entire @$$.
My words included 3 rhetorical questions similar to the ones you criticized me for answering. But you can’t take someone giving you the same back.
You are remarkably thin skinned for someone that is that obnoxiously critical.
Forgive me or not I really could care less. Trying to control someone’s behavior with forgiveness or not is called manipulation. You started the tangential crap with picking at me so you got it back. I’ll stop when you do.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
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Rocky
That is remarkably hostile projection, btw.
How is your message going to help people trying to escape TWI?
Oh, and who's criticizing whom?
I'm confident, however, that you understood my message but just don't like it.
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Rocky
This is NOT addressed to anyone specifically. But I believe it's related to forgiveness.
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chockfull
Ummm that would be you criticizing me and comparing me to people and calling me names.
I’m confident that you want to be the king of this website and somehow feel threatened when I post a lot here so you pretty much revert to criticizing me or attacking my posts in some fashion. You have way more posts here than anyone else by a long shot.
No I didn’t understand your comparison of me to Mike other than understanding it’s a delusion of yours to push my buttons. If it’s logical then please explain more about how I’m like Mike.
I don’t have any message or mission to help people escape TWI. People have to do that for themselves.
Oh and in the context of this argument it is fairly apparent that you do intend the Dostoyevsky post to be aimed at me despite your oooh it’s not aimed at anyone disclaimer. So that is you lying about it to your audience.
I respect those whose actions and words garner respect. If your words do not perhaps you should look within.
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Rocky
There is NO reason I would feel threatened by you.
Me lying? Really?
Please just stop it.
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chockfull
Then why do you consistently single out and criticize my posts? You certainly do that and I’m not allowing you to gaslight me on this.
You explain.
You still haven’t explained how I’m like Mike logically.
And yes lying. Explain the Dostoyevsky post in the midst of this back and forth. Or answer directly. Do you feel that quote is something I represent? It certainly appears that way in context. Oooh but no that’s coincidental. How does it relate to forgiveness then?
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
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Rocky
Dude... chill. I don't try to control or give orders to you. I don't take orders from you.
I don't have the foggiest idea why you get so upset.
But if you want me to explain anything, please spell out how, why and what have I written/said that you believe I was untruthful or counterfactual.
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Rocky
Are you not aware of the mission of GSC?
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chockfull
I just did spell it out. The repeated question is gaslighting. Please explain what I asked in my previous post without all the BS.
I am not upset I am just not letting your BS criticism go unmentioned this time.
Maybe you are projecting how upset you are onto me.
I’ll repeat it
1. Explain constant criticism singling me out
2. Explain calling me Mike or just like him
3. Explain Dostoyevsky post and how it relates to forgiveness and why it was brought up
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chockfull
Are you going to explain it to me like you did rhetorical questions?
It is to tell the other side of the story. It is not an Underground Railroad to smuggle questioning people out of TWI.
Are you not aware of the mission of GSC?
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Rocky
Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting their memory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth.
----
Asking rhetorical questions does not qualify as gaslighting, as I understand it. I will explain this. Rhetorical questions are NOT me feeding you false information (or lies). They are for you to answer your own damn questions.
And again, I don't take or obey orders from you.
Did your parents ever explain that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?
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Rocky
ALWAYS remember that.
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Charity
Referencing back to my previous posts on forgiveness, here is what Jesus taught in Luke 17:3-4
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he trespasses against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
In vs 3, the need to admonish the believer as to what action against you was sinful is noteworthy. The offender is then in the position to make a choice as to whether to repent or not and if they do, then we are to forgive them.
The word "repent" means "to change one's mind or purpose."
Verse 4 brings different scenarios to my mind, but I'll let the verse speak for itself.
Obviously, in twi, confronting leaders was worthy of condemnation and repentance was not a practice you saw modelled by leaders, yet followers were expected to be unconditionally forgiving.
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