Yes, God requires forgiveness by his followers when they have been wronged.
Yah, forgiveness.
Everytime my mother would betray me, she would want to be forgiven. "We've got to start over from scratch," she would say. So I would forgive and forget and all she was really doing was setting me up for her to do the same thing all over again.
It sound to me like you want us to forgive and forget.
God require us to forgive, he says nothing about us having to forget.
God says we are to be as wise a serpents, which includes not falling into the same trap again.
The ministry sending out time to come home cards feels like deja vu all over again.
The type of forgiveness you want us to have requires trust and trust is earned.
Everytime my mother would betray me, she would want to be forgiven. "We've got to start over from scratch," she would say. So I would forgive and forget and all she was really doing was setting me up for her to do the same thing all over again.
It sound to me like you want us to forgive and forget.
How did you come to that conclusion?
God require us to forgive, he says nothing about us having to forget.
God says we are to be as wise a serpents, which includes not falling into the same trap again.
The ministry sending out time to come home cards feels like deja vu all over again.
The type of forgiveness you want us to have requires trust and trust is earned.
Yes, God requires forgiveness by his followers when they have been wronged.
The real crux of the issue is offshoots using this garbage as an excuse to keep the cash cow running and preservinvg their jobs. Of course offshoots and anyone still idolizing false prophet wierwille demand forgiveness from the victims...but you know what? Thats deplorable to expect a victim to extend forgiveness when the perpetrators dont ask for it or repent of their jaded actions. So shame on anyone putting this garbage on people who have been wronged as they arent the ones who need to ask for or extend forgiveness unless repentance occurs and perpetrators make amends...which has never happened to my knowledge when it comes to all things wierwille. BTW - God himself doesnt forgive without repentance...we are to be followers of God. What we are told to do is give place to wrath and let God settle the account, which he will.
Yes, God requires forgiveness by his followers when they have been wronged.
This is at best a partial statement that conveys none of the details surrounding the related verses.
Jesus 70x7 statement is in the context of the person committing the wrong asking for forgiveness, evidencing remorse, but falling short.
Wrongly dividing scripture and reaching a conclusion where a victim should be blamed but a perpetrator should be excused is about the worst example of Christianity I can think of. It shows worse than any other religion I can think of who would hold perpetrators accountable.
Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective. The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves. They did not send out the postcard to the entire list. Most notably they don’t like people who post on this site and will never invite them back. On this site we don’t blame their victims but help them recover. We don’t excuse their immorality we call them out on it. We have done no evil here. Why can’t they forgive us for telling the truth about them? Why aren’t people hounding them to forgive everyone who left for understandable reasons? They use worldly designated “statuses” on their records to help them not forgive. And most of those mark and avoids like the RNR group were people trying to help them right the ship.
I think some people should take their forgiveness guilt trip and shove it right back down the throat of the people demanding it of them but not doing it themselves. That’s what I do.
to expect a victim to extend forgiveness when the perpetrators dont ask for it or repent of their jaded actions
And yet. Jesus is reputed to have said: “Father,forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)
This raises a couple of issues.
(1) Jesus is asking his father to forgive them. He's not saying he forgives them.
And yet:
(2) We know that Jesus and his father are likeminded in all things, plenty of references to that. Jesus only does what the father wishes. If Jesus asks his father to forgive, but he himself does not, does that introduce a split personality if God is a trinity and a part of that trinity is saying one thing and another part is saying or thinking something different? That's a nice rabbit hole for trinitarians. Does Jesus have independent thought processes that do not line up with the fathr's wishes?
And further:
(3) This verse in Luke and the sentiments expressed therein appears only in Luke. No similar reference in Matthew, Mark and John. Many commentaries simply note: "Some early manuscripts do not have this sentence."
Hmm. So not much to hang one's hat on, in the forgiveness line.
Why would someone come onto a place where Way victims congregate and start talking about forgiving?
Do you think we haven't forgiven all the evil The Way brought?
There's forgiving, then there's warning others. If someone mugged me in certain place I could forgive the mugger. However, I would also warn other to stay away from the place were the mugging occurred.
And yet. Jesus is reputed to have said: “Father,forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)
This raises a couple of issues.
(1) Jesus is asking his father to forgive them. He's not saying he forgives them.
And yet:
(2) We know that Jesus and his father are likeminded in all things, plenty of references to that. Jesus only does what the father wishes. If Jesus asks his father to forgive, but he himself does not, does that introduce a split personality if God is a trinity and a part of that trinity is saying one thing and another part is saying or thinking something different? That's a nice rabbit hole for trinitarians. Does Jesus have independent thought processes that do not line up with the fathr's wishes?
And further:
(3) This verse in Luke and the sentiments expressed therein appears only in Luke. No similar reference in Matthew, Mark and John. Many commentaries simply note: "Some early manuscripts do not have this sentence."
Hmm. So not much to hang one's hat on, in the forgiveness line.
Hey Twinky! Thanks for the detail. Yes when you dig into it it seems pretty clear that this topic is nuanced in what scripture actually teaches. I read no cut and dried mandates for sure.
The other side of forgiveness is justice. I see on all the real life crime shows victims being consumed and facing real impact from the lack of justice in their life situations. I see that on this site also. I see that in TWI leadership operations and decisions. They protect themselves at all costs, thwart justice and blame victims. It’s real tangible evil.
I suppose in the context of things in the 3rd heaven and earth there will be no more pain in injustice and so people escaping the consequences of their actions won’t have victim impact. That seems the only hope for the perpetrators. And I only see that happening with repentence of their former actions and impact.
Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective. The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves. They did not send out the postcard to the entire list. Most notably they don’t like people who post on this site and will never invite them back. On this site we don’t blame their victims but help them recover. We don’t excuse their immorality we call them out on it. We have done no evil here. Why can’t they forgive us for telling the truth about them?Why aren’t people hounding them to forgive everyone who left for understandable reasons? They use worldly designated “statuses” on their records to help them not forgive. And most of those mark and avoids like the RNR group were people trying to help them right the ship.
I think some people should take their forgiveness guilt trip and shove it right back down the throat of the people demanding it of them but not doing it themselves. That’s what I do.
I very much appreciate emotionally probing and salient questions/declarations like those you include in this comment.
This is at best a partial statement that conveys none of the details surrounding the related verses.
Jesus 70x7 statement is in the context of the person committing the wrong asking for forgiveness, evidencing remorse, but falling short.
Wrongly dividing scripture and reaching a conclusion where a victim should be blamed but a perpetrator should be excused is about the worst example of Christianity I can think of. It shows worse than any other religion I can think of who would hold perpetrators accountable.
Wow!! Who do you think you are? First off, I have never blamed, or suggested, the victim was responsible for any wrong done to them. Perhaps you should check out the subject of this thread, one which you began; it is about forgiveness, not blaming the victim. Please don’t go off topic.
Secondly, your declaration of what the worst example of Christianity is, sets yourself up as the authority of how to interpret the bible. You have learned well from, as you put it, the plaffy class, Chockfull. VPW and LCM would be proud you have taken the mantle of rightly dividing the word of Gawd.
I seem to recall you not being so concerned with what God requires of people. Am I wrong? If so, what changed?
You are correct about me not being concerned about what God thinks, and nothing has changed, but I can throw my two cents worth in. In this situation, forgiving those who have done you wrong, I agree. In my own personal life, forgiving others has been necessary, and freed my mind from holding grudges.
A clock that doesn’t work is accurate twice a day. The bible addresses many subjects, so it is bound to be correct once in a while.
Thankfully we have Chockfull who can determine when I get things wrongs. She can tell us when I have wrongly divided the word of gawd, and will point out the worst example of me being a Christian. Amen.
You mean because I actually read the verses related to the topic as opposed to just buying your one-line mandate about forgiveness? And ask detailed questions?
Also, you’re an @sshat who comes on a forum and tells victims what they need to be doing according to you as opposed to what they are currently doing. That is called victim blaming you dense jackfoot. You’re blaming them for their current state because according to you His Highness they haven’t forgiven their abuser so they aren’t delivered.
The fact that you don’t care what God thinks by your own mouth means you are a disingenuous jackfoot troll for baiting all of us in this conversation.
You are correct about me not being concerned about what God thinks, and nothing has changed, but I can throw my two cents worth in. In this situation, forgiving those who have done you wrong, I agree. In my own personal life, forgiving others has been necessary, and freed my mind from holding grudges.
A clock that doesn’t work is accurate twice a day. The bible addresses many subjects, so it is bound to be correct once in a while.
Thankfully we have Chockfull who can determine when I get things wrongs. She can tell us when I have wrongly divided the word of gawd, and will point out the worst example of me being a Christian. Amen.
Thankfully we have some condescending @sshat to make up kidnap stories and tell us we are not forgiving enough. While misgendering us.
thanks for pointing out how wrong I was to indulge our discussion there Victoria.
You mean because I actually read the verses related to the topic as opposed to just buying your one-line mandate about forgiveness? And ask detailed questions?
Also, you’re an @sshat who comes on a forum and tells victims what they need to be doing according to you as opposed to what they are currently doing. That is called victim blaming you dense jackfoot. You’re blaming them for their current state because according to you His Highness they haven’t forgiven their abuser so they aren’t delivered.
The fact that you don’t care what God thinks by your own mouth means you are a disingenuous jackfoot troll for baiting all of us in this conversation.
My beliefs, or unbeliefs, in God have never been hidden by me. There are ample posts on the atheist thread by me questioning God. That makes you an @sshat?? and jackfoot troll?? for assuming anything other than what I have posted? How do you think Rocky knew to question me about my prior posts? I am not interested in baiting anyone; you seem to be the only one not aware of what I have posted in the past.
When you recopied this post your comment was you didn’t care to rehash it. It is hard for me to understand exactly what that means to you?
Remember that we can also forgive Stayed Too Long.
Forgiving doesn't have to equate with "forget what the person did wrong and restore them to a position of authority." We've had posters claim that was expected in the past, but that's not required at all- nor is it sound or sensible.
If I know a store does shoddy or dishonest work, I'm certainly not going to shop there. If I know a proven deadbeat and professional sponge who lives off of the generosity of others, I'm certainly not going to recommend them for a position of authority.
We can forgive lcm- while steering well clear of him and whatever money-making scheme he's cooking up lately. Forgetting is applied independently, and one can forgive while keeping barriers to limit exposure to twi brass and the like.
Remember that we can also forgive Stayed Too Long.
Forgiving doesn't have to equate with "forget what the person did wrong and restore them to a position of authority." We've had posters claim that was expected in the past, but that's not required at all- nor is it sound or sensible.
If I know a store does shoddy or dishonest work, I'm certainly not going to shop there. If I know a proven deadbeat and professional sponge who lives off of the generosity of others, I'm certainly not going to recommend them for a position of authority.
We can forgive lcm- while steering well clear of him and whatever money-making scheme he's cooking up lately. Forgetting is applied independently, and one can forgive while keeping barriers to limit exposure to twi brass and the like.
I can forgive Stayed. Well within my capabilities. Has he asked for forgiveness? Sounds to me more like a lecture hit and run. We get quite a lot of those on this site actually. Lecture hit and runs. Is he of a mentally impaired or unaware state where he “knows not what he does”?
LCM too. Knew him personally. He has never asked for my forgiveness for anything. Right now he is teaching new interpretations of books of the Bible to an imaginary internet audience and none of those teachings seem to carry any awareness of being wrong or changing. His own daughter has posted on here concerned about his ongoing influence.
I mean sure I’ve got my version of Jesus blanket forgiveness for those who are unaware of their evil impact.
Do these two examples fit the bill?
Where does the verse in Romans about not taking vengeance because vengeance is the Lords fit in? If the Lord always forgave everyone and required everyone else to then what would He have to take vengeance on?
This whole topic and the wrong dividing of scripture around it by the cult TWI has kept more people in bondage and whitewashed more evil by leaders than any other I know.
I like Carlos Santana's take on forgiveness. If I send you to hell for what you did to me, I send myself as well. A couple of years ago I asked a few folks what they though that they owed me an absolved the debt.
Give a Christian acid and see what happens.. maybe you get more than you want.
treat me like crap and I can forgive you. I can't make the same negotiation for the rest of the humans that you have messed with- you're on your own.
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WordWolf
It does seem evident that the sinner's REPENTANCE is a necessary part of the equation. We forgive IF HE REPENTS. If he continues in sin and demands forgiveness regardless, that's nothing at all l
chockfull
Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective. The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves. They did not
OldSkool
The real crux of the issue is offshoots using this garbage as an excuse to keep the cash cow running and preservinvg their jobs. Of course offshoots and anyone still idolizing false prophet wierwille
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Rocky
Thanks again, chockful!
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Stayed Too Long
Yes, God requires forgiveness by his followers when they have been wronged.
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So_crates
Yah, forgiveness.
Everytime my mother would betray me, she would want to be forgiven. "We've got to start over from scratch," she would say. So I would forgive and forget and all she was really doing was setting me up for her to do the same thing all over again.
It sound to me like you want us to forgive and forget.
God require us to forgive, he says nothing about us having to forget.
God says we are to be as wise a serpents, which includes not falling into the same trap again.
The ministry sending out time to come home cards feels like deja vu all over again.
The type of forgiveness you want us to have requires trust and trust is earned.
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Stayed Too Long
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OldSkool
The real crux of the issue is offshoots using this garbage as an excuse to keep the cash cow running and preservinvg their jobs. Of course offshoots and anyone still idolizing false prophet wierwille demand forgiveness from the victims...but you know what? Thats deplorable to expect a victim to extend forgiveness when the perpetrators dont ask for it or repent of their jaded actions. So shame on anyone putting this garbage on people who have been wronged as they arent the ones who need to ask for or extend forgiveness unless repentance occurs and perpetrators make amends...which has never happened to my knowledge when it comes to all things wierwille. BTW - God himself doesnt forgive without repentance...we are to be followers of God. What we are told to do is give place to wrath and let God settle the account, which he will.
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chockfull
This is at best a partial statement that conveys none of the details surrounding the related verses.
Jesus 70x7 statement is in the context of the person committing the wrong asking for forgiveness, evidencing remorse, but falling short.
Wrongly dividing scripture and reaching a conclusion where a victim should be blamed but a perpetrator should be excused is about the worst example of Christianity I can think of. It shows worse than any other religion I can think of who would hold perpetrators accountable.
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chockfull
Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective. The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves. They did not send out the postcard to the entire list. Most notably they don’t like people who post on this site and will never invite them back. On this site we don’t blame their victims but help them recover. We don’t excuse their immorality we call them out on it. We have done no evil here. Why can’t they forgive us for telling the truth about them? Why aren’t people hounding them to forgive everyone who left for understandable reasons? They use worldly designated “statuses” on their records to help them not forgive. And most of those mark and avoids like the RNR group were people trying to help them right the ship.
I think some people should take their forgiveness guilt trip and shove it right back down the throat of the people demanding it of them but not doing it themselves. That’s what I do.
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Twinky
And yet. Jesus is reputed to have said: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)
This raises a couple of issues.
(1) Jesus is asking his father to forgive them. He's not saying he forgives them.
And yet:
(2) We know that Jesus and his father are likeminded in all things, plenty of references to that. Jesus only does what the father wishes. If Jesus asks his father to forgive, but he himself does not, does that introduce a split personality if God is a trinity and a part of that trinity is saying one thing and another part is saying or thinking something different? That's a nice rabbit hole for trinitarians. Does Jesus have independent thought processes that do not line up with the fathr's wishes?
And further:
(3) This verse in Luke and the sentiments expressed therein appears only in Luke. No similar reference in Matthew, Mark and John. Many commentaries simply note: "Some early manuscripts do not have this sentence."
Hmm. So not much to hang one's hat on, in the forgiveness line.
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So_crates
Why would someone come onto a place where Way victims congregate and start talking about forgiving?
Do you think we haven't forgiven all the evil The Way brought?
There's forgiving, then there's warning others. If someone mugged me in certain place I could forgive the mugger. However, I would also warn other to stay away from the place were the mugging occurred.
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chockfull
Hey Twinky! Thanks for the detail. Yes when you dig into it it seems pretty clear that this topic is nuanced in what scripture actually teaches. I read no cut and dried mandates for sure.
The other side of forgiveness is justice. I see on all the real life crime shows victims being consumed and facing real impact from the lack of justice in their life situations. I see that on this site also. I see that in TWI leadership operations and decisions. They protect themselves at all costs, thwart justice and blame victims. It’s real tangible evil.
I suppose in the context of things in the 3rd heaven and earth there will be no more pain in injustice and so people escaping the consequences of their actions won’t have victim impact. That seems the only hope for the perpetrators. And I only see that happening with repentence of their former actions and impact.
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Rocky
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Rocky
I seem to recall you not being so concerned with what God requires of people. Am I wrong? If so, what changed?
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Stayed Too Long
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Nathan_Jr
Forgiving others is not so difficult, except when it comes to forgiving the narc. That remains a challenge.
But forgiving myself may be the most difficult of all.
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Stayed Too Long
You are correct about me not being concerned about what God thinks, and nothing has changed, but I can throw my two cents worth in. In this situation, forgiving those who have done you wrong, I agree. In my own personal life, forgiving others has been necessary, and freed my mind from holding grudges.
A clock that doesn’t work is accurate twice a day. The bible addresses many subjects, so it is bound to be correct once in a while.
Thankfully we have Chockfull who can determine when I get things wrongs. She can tell us when I have wrongly divided the word of gawd, and will point out the worst example of me being a Christian. Amen.
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chockfull
You mean because I actually read the verses related to the topic as opposed to just buying your one-line mandate about forgiveness? And ask detailed questions?
Also, you’re an @sshat who comes on a forum and tells victims what they need to be doing according to you as opposed to what they are currently doing. That is called victim blaming you dense jackfoot. You’re blaming them for their current state because according to you His Highness they haven’t forgiven their abuser so they aren’t delivered.
The fact that you don’t care what God thinks by your own mouth means you are a disingenuous jackfoot troll for baiting all of us in this conversation.
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chockfull
Thankfully we have some condescending @sshat to make up kidnap stories and tell us we are not forgiving enough. While misgendering us.
thanks for pointing out how wrong I was to indulge our discussion there Victoria.
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Stayed Too Long
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WordWolf
Now, now.....
Remember that we can also forgive Stayed Too Long.
Forgiving doesn't have to equate with "forget what the person did wrong and restore them to a position of authority." We've had posters claim that was expected in the past, but that's not required at all- nor is it sound or sensible.
If I know a store does shoddy or dishonest work, I'm certainly not going to shop there. If I know a proven deadbeat and professional sponge who lives off of the generosity of others, I'm certainly not going to recommend them for a position of authority.
We can forgive lcm- while steering well clear of him and whatever money-making scheme he's cooking up lately. Forgetting is applied independently, and one can forgive while keeping barriers to limit exposure to twi brass and the like.
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Rocky
Often referred to as emotional boundaries... which Victor and Loy rarely, as I understand, understood, respected, or honored.
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chockfull
No what makes you an @sshat troll is to be lecturing people about “what God wants” when you don’t believe in God.
What I meant about not rehashing it is not getting into stupid damn arguments about “forgiveness”.
Kind of like this has turned into.
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chockfull
I can forgive Stayed. Well within my capabilities. Has he asked for forgiveness? Sounds to me more like a lecture hit and run. We get quite a lot of those on this site actually. Lecture hit and runs. Is he of a mentally impaired or unaware state where he “knows not what he does”?
LCM too. Knew him personally. He has never asked for my forgiveness for anything. Right now he is teaching new interpretations of books of the Bible to an imaginary internet audience and none of those teachings seem to carry any awareness of being wrong or changing. His own daughter has posted on here concerned about his ongoing influence.
I mean sure I’ve got my version of Jesus blanket forgiveness for those who are unaware of their evil impact.
Do these two examples fit the bill?
Where does the verse in Romans about not taking vengeance because vengeance is the Lords fit in? If the Lord always forgave everyone and required everyone else to then what would He have to take vengeance on?
This whole topic and the wrong dividing of scripture around it by the cult TWI has kept more people in bondage and whitewashed more evil by leaders than any other I know.
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cman
Twi's version of forgiveness is like God is dealing cards or something. This one for you but not you. Craziness!
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Ham
I like Carlos Santana's take on forgiveness. If I send you to hell for what you did to me, I send myself as well. A couple of years ago I asked a few folks what they though that they owed me an absolved the debt.
Give a Christian acid and see what happens.. maybe you get more than you want.
treat me like crap and I can forgive you. I can't make the same negotiation for the rest of the humans that you have messed with- you're on your own.
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