We knew that we knew that we knew... OR...

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, Charity said:

Yes, I believed them.  Should I have - in hindsight, no.  One ramification was critical thinking went out the door because of...

Indeed, all we EVER have is hindsight to evaluate our choices. No matter how much foresight we might think/believe we have, it's still a risk, calculated or not, to follow someone like Victor.

Isn't that the value of history and even more importantly for people who may follow in our footsteps, memoir?

IF we write a memoir, it might reach someone to allow them, telepathically (as Stephen King describes it) to live in or imagine themselves in your shoes, in your path. In which case those readers might be able to "look back" to evaluate the risk to them.

[Rocky]

I think back to the blurb I wrote about Charlene's memoir,

“Undertow is a gift to young people and their families who want to understand the inner workings of fundamentalist cults. Charlene Edge’s experience parallels much of my own twelve years as a follower of Victor Paul Wierwille’s ministry. Undertow sheds light on the decisions, questions, and longings that she encountered, and ultimately worked her way through. In the words of Canadian author Matshona Dhliwayo, ‘Books are kinder teachers than experience.’ May Undertow be a kinder teacher to you than Charlene’s seventeen years in The Way International were to her.” —Steve Muratore, publisher of award-winning political blog the Arizona Eagletarian

 

 

[Nathan_Jr]

6 hours ago, chockfull said:

Hey Nathan that sparked an idea about the policies for PFAL.  As a class coordinator you were not to answer questions directly, but defer them to a Q and A session at the end of the class.  This policy was highlighted to the new students from day one.

With all of the mental acrobatics that the new student is taken through in the class, the net effect of this policy is like Nathan is observing in the U of L Romans class to not answer questions at all directly and to defer the answering of questions to the class coordinator.

In all of the years of running classes and all the classes I ran I never once saw this policy result in anything other than people forgetting about their questions or them getting ignored.  Peer pressure for Corps would prevent escalating any questionable areas where legit questions arose.

How many of you ever experienced a last session of the class where any questions of substance were asked or answered?  None for me.

I postulate that this is a clear example of brainwashing techniques.

 

3 hours ago, Rocky said:

I observed no such Q/A sessions either. Indeed, it certainly is somehow related to the brainwashing to which we willingly but not knowingly subjected ourselves and each other. Thanks for your insight.

Right.

I learned about the no-questions policy before taking PFAL. I used this as one of many arguments to my ex wife for why her indoctrination was destroying our marriage. (Later, I realized the indoctrination was not solely responsible, but it did dovetail perfectly with her NPD.) She, being a loyal fellowship cog, secretly told the FC, her uncle, all of my expressed criticisms. When I finally took "the class," in a last ditch effort to show my determination to save our marriage, the FC assured me I could ask questions at any time.

However, I quickly learned he was disingenuous. My first question was about all without exception vs all without distinction, and the clear, obvious error. He let out a loud, exasperated sigh and said, "Well... no one has ever asked that question!" He was embarrassed and frustrated and furious. I never asked another question.

I planned to follow up that question with, "Did victor not have access to an atlas during his exhaustive research? Nicaea is not in France. Did he really not know that?"

At that point I realized it was more compassionate to pity this fool than to show him his own foolishness. 

[Nathan_Jr]

In today's New York Times Magazine Daniel Dennet is interviewed in the "Talk" column.

I thought of this thread topic when Dennet says,

"We should recognize...that people are very reluctant to consider that they might be wrong. What if I'm wrong? That's a question I ask myself a lot. These people do not want to ask that question, and I understand why. They're afraid of what they might discover."

[So_crates]

Did Saint Vic know that he knew that he knew? Depends on what you think he knew. I, personally, think he knew he was running a con.

Proof of this is in the POP paper. Saint Vic went to G33r whining that Martindale was "ruining the whole thing.* Just what was the "whole thing?"

Upon leaving that meeting, Saint Vic said, "Well bring it back."

Notice, in both instances, there was no ta!k of for the glory of God, or the people needing the Word. Just ruining the 'whole thing" and "bringing it back.'

Saint Vic was talking about ruining the con and that he wanted to bring it back.

[Nathan_Jr]

3 minutes ago, So_crates said:

Did Saint Vic know that he knew that he knew? Depends on what you think he knew. I, personally, think he knew he was running a con.

Proof of this is in the POP paper. Saint Vic went to G33r whining that Martindale was "ruining the whole thing.* Just what was the "whole thing?"

Upon leaving that meeting, Saint Vic said, "Well bring it back."

Notice, in both instances, there was no ta!k of for the glory of God, or the people needing the Word. Just ruining the 'whole thing" and "bringing it back.'

Saint Vic was talking about ruining the con and that he wanted to bring it back.

Ha! “The whole thing.” Yeah, I think you’re on to something.

The POP is an unintentional confession and indictment, even if Geer injected his own PI bullshonta. As are victor’s early letters to his fledgling congregation begging for money. As are his letters to “his Corps.”

Boy, were those Corps letters a bad look! So revealing. No wonder they’ve been removed from public view.

 

[Rocky]

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Boy, were those Corps letters a bad look! So revealing. No wonder they’ve been removed from public view.

40-years ago, there wasn't very much societal understanding of emotional intelligence... at least that I knew of. Daniel Goleman's first book, Emotional Intelligence, Why It Can Be More Important Than IQ wasn't published until 1995. As far as I can tell, there seems to have been little social awareness of the concept before that.

IOW, yeah it WAS a bad look. But who of us realized that reality back in the 1970s?

I suppose it would be silly to consider that 1995 publication and the proliferation of the internet to have been a coincidence in the correlation to exposing Victor, Loy, and Victor's legacy private interpretation ministry beginning with Trancenet/Trancechat in (or about) 1998.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Rocky

[Rocky]

Btw, I think I have some of those corps letters on my google drive if anyone needs access to them.

[penworks]

I have every single one. If anyone wants them, send me a message here at GSC.

 

 

 

 

 

[chockfull]

12 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Ha! “The whole thing.” Yeah, I think you’re on to something.

The POP is an unintentional confession and indictment, even if Geer injected his own PI bullshonta. As are victor’s early letters to his fledgling congregation begging for money. As are his letters to “his Corps.”

Boy, were those Corps letters a bad look! So revealing. No wonder they’ve been removed from public view.

 

Yeah Craig’s letters are also a real gem.  Especially his rants about homos.  He is very unhinged.

I thought all those documents used to be around this site somewhere in a documents section free for all to access.  VPWs are all in an archive somewhere on the web.  Mods are they still here?  I think I could go to the Wayback machine internet site archive and retrieve all the docs.  They include letters and lawsuits.

These series of letters to the “Way Corps” from TWI Presidents really highlight their thinking, control, and running of leadership programs.  You see BITE model material all throughout.

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by chockfull

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

Yeah Craig’s letters are also a real gem.  Especially his rants about homos.  He is very unhinged.

I thought all those documents used to be around this site somewhere in a documents section free for all to access.  VPWs are all in an archive somewhere on the web.  Mods are they still here?  I think I could go to the Wayback machine internet site archive and retrieve all the docs.  They include letters and lawsuits.

These series of letters to the “Way Corps” from TWI Presidents really highlight their thinking, control, and running of leadership programs.  You see BITE model material all throughout.

 

BITE model Responding to Authoritarian Cults and Extreme Exploitations: A New Framework to Evaluate Undue Influence

Wayback machine internet

Thanks, chockful, for this info and insight. 

[Ham]

Knew that we Knew is circular reasoning..

[Ham]

I't trying to figure out what it was that we supposed to actually have known..

 

 

[Ham]

On 8/31/2023 at 9:06 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

Forgiveness is for the forgiver. Forgiveness is never for the forgiven.

For the awakened, reality and truth are presented on the end of a club whacked upside the head. The ringing bell is violent disillusionment. Clarity is a brutal, unexpected visitor.

Though finally free and clear of the cult leader or the NPD, the awakened, for a time, may imprison themselves in a cage of resentment.

Real healing for the awakened survivor begins with letting go of the resentment, the anger.

However, the survivors of VPW and LCM and the NPD are fully justified in their anger and resentment. When I say fully justified, I mean completely, completely complete in justification.

The awakened survivor need not forget. Never, ever forget! Moving on with healing doesn’t mean ignoring the fraud, the spiritual crimes and the spiritual and physical rape.

Examining and analyzing quacks like LCM and VPW is important for many reasons, including healing, but the examining and analyzing need not imply a lack of forgiveness or inability to move on. This is important, noble work for the current and next generations.  

Forgiveness is letting go of the righteously justified anger. It is for the forgiver only.

The forgiven will certainly get his on that day. 

In a sense, I think that this is true.. but still.. in a way.  I think that thinking that the forgiven will get his on that day- is a condition on forgiveness..  but that I can put conditions on forgiveness for the forgiver.. I would not dream of doing so..

 

I think that it is all up to the forgiver..