Love

[Charity]

1 hour ago, modcat5 said:

A moderator, not THE moderator. :)

If we want to talk about how TWI distorted the definition of love for its selfish ends, the thread belongs here.

If we want to talk about what love really is and should be, the thread belongs in doctrinal. My initial impression was the latter. If I was mistaken I will reconsider, but either way, the thread stays put for now because the subject matter certainly overlaps.

I stand corrected on the "THE" and thanks for the reply!

Edited August 2, 2023 by Charity

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, modcat5 said:

A moderator, not THE moderator. :)

If we want to talk about how TWI distorted the definition of love for its selfish ends, the thread belongs here.

If we want to talk about what love really is and should be, the thread belongs in doctrinal. My initial impression was the latter. If I was mistaken I will reconsider, but either way, the thread stays put for now because the subject matter certainly overlaps.

Indeed, the "subject matter" overlaps. However, it was (as I understand it) brought up to primarily comment on and illustrate how and that twi behavior standards (i.e unwritten rules aka mores) were completely divorced from what love is and what love does. Just my take on it anyway.

[Rocky]

https://youtube.com/shorts/4GI4ToJqLaw

Apparently the clip has an emoji in the title and the GSC platform doesn't like those.

I submit this to starkly illustrate the contrast between twi and love.

[Charity]

This is something I've never heard of before.  It's interesting though what it does or does not show about twi - definitely open to interpretation.   

 

[Charity]

34 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Indeed, the "subject matter" overlaps. However, it was (as I understand it) brought up to primarily comment on and illustrate how and that twi behavior standards (i.e unwritten rules aka mores) were completely divorced from what love is and what love does. Just my take on it anyway.

I did not want the thread to only be about Godly love so anyone could be part of the discussion.  I also brought in the issue of what we learned about love as kids and now I'm thinking how much of what we learned about love that was unhealthy was repeated in our experience in twi.  Did it have a factor in why we were attracted to it and/or why we stayed as long as we did.  

[chockfull]

Not about Godly love only.

Check.

Here is a modern expression that is simple enough for TWI to get:

 

[OldSkool]

The way international relegates the love of God to table etiquette...so yes, this is a healthy discussion for anyone ever involved in the way international and has been deeply affected by their practices, like me.

 

[Rocky]

5 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

The way international relegates the love of God to table etiquette...so yes, this is a healthy discussion for anyone ever involved in the way international and has been deeply affected by their practices, like me.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

I thought the thread was started to explore love in general, what it means, what it is. The opening post cites secular, biblical, and cultic propositions.

Inevitably, such a discussion will include philosophical, religious, humanistic, scientific, psychological, biblical... perspectives.

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, Charity said:

This is something I've never heard of before.  It's interesting though what it does or does not show about twi - definitely open to interpretation.   

 

Not a direct parallel but this inspired me to think of the gospel story of the good Samaritan.

[Nathan_Jr]

A question I've been contemplating: Is obedience love?

Mike and victor seem to want to equate obedience with love. But obedience is about respect and honor. Love is something else, is it not?

Does love fear reprisal? Does love expect reward?

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[OldSkool]

40 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

A question I've been contemplating: Is obedience love?

Mike and victor seem to want to equate obedience with love. But obedience is about respect and honor. Love is something else, is it not?

Does love fear reprisal? Does love expect reward?

 

 

Well, 
I cant say foer certain where mike's confusion came into play but I think it's when he tried to apply loving God by keeping his commandments to loving people by doing their will and word. An extremely inaccurate comparison. Scripture states that to love God we keep his commandments...thats plain enough...but that doesn't apply to people in the same manner as was stated earlier. 

So is obedience love? When it come to God yes, but not people always. We ought to obey God rather than men. But we are to submit ourselves one to another so it can apply but not in a blanket statement sort of way.

But obedience is about respect and honor. Love is something else, is it not? Obedience respect and honor all go into loving God and keepong his will. Love can be something else, I.E. loving my wife. Thats an emotional love but carries a desire to make her happy and give my all for her benefit happiness. So thats definately different from loving God. So there seems to be some overlap here as stated earlier.

Does love fear reprisal? Scripture states that there is no fear in love but perfect love casteth out fear, so theres that. Im not sure love would fear reprisal because I wouldnt violate someone else by carrying out actions that would cause reprisal. At least not if I loved them. I guess....were getting into areas where Im a little murky on answers and thats good cause it's making me think...you can lead a horticulture but you cant make her think...oh oops...lol

Does love expect reward? I dont think it does, though recipricol actions may be appropriate. But when I give money to those in need I NEVER expect personal gain or benefit. But perhaps there are times where that's appropriate?

[Nathan_Jr]

33 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

you can lead a horticulture but you cant make her think.

I'm stealing this!

 

 

Thank you for considering my questions. I'm still thinking about it all...

[OldSkool]

7 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I'm stealing this!

 

 

Thank you for considering my questions. I'm still thinking about it all...

YW!

And me too...Im eager to hear your conclusions...

[Charity]

3 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

A question I've been contemplating: Is obedience love?

Mike and victor seem to want to equate obedience with love. But obedience is about respect and honor. Love is something else, is it not?

Does love fear reprisal? Does love expect reward?

 

 

vp was cunning in how he used his version of God’s Word, God’s will and God’s love to cultivate an obedience to him.  lcm learned to do the same but was more blatant about it.  

Is obedience love? As children of God, when we love God, we keep his commandments.  But there’s more to it: Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another (1 John 4:10-11).  And we love him because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19).  I think God wants us to get the order right which means to first focus on His personal love for us and then love Him and others in response to it.  

Does love fear reprisal?  It would when someone understands or defines love in unhealthy ways - like an abused person who “loves” their abuser yet lives in fear of failing to meet his/her narcissist expectations and demands of what being “loved” means.  Not, however, in a healthy loving relationship and definitely not when we love God.

Does love expect reward? Expecting a reward when you show love to someone makes that person feel like they have to earn your love.  So that’s not right.  Yet God promises to give rewards at the Bema for obedience to His word here on earth.  So, there’s that to understand about Him and His love.  

[Charity]

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

Not about Godly love only.

Check.

Here is a modern expression that is simple enough for TWI to get:

 

Er, yes there's that.  You did get my hopes up though because I thought it was this one that my friend and I used to love to dance to. 

What Is Love (7" Mix) - Bing video

You might like this version better what with the dancing and all 

Haddaway - What Is Love (Echo) - Bing video

And then there's this one by Foreigner that used to pull at my heart strings.  

Foreigner - 'I Want To Know What Love Is' [Official Music Video] - Bing video

I say "used to" because I haven't listened to either one in a long time, but I still feel this way about them.   .

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Charity

[Charity]

4 hours ago, Rocky said:

Not a direct parallel but this inspired me to think of the gospel story of the good Samaritan.

Good point!  Metaphorically, the cat with the chicks (especially the nursing of them) made me think of how twi was the opposite (their exclusivity and condemnation towards Christians outside of it).  Then the pulling the chicks back reminded me of their use of fear to keep people from leaving and finally the ducks following the cat was like when you could no longer think for yourself.  

BUT, that's not anything like the video is really about - it's adorable and all about the love! (in case anyone hasn't watched it)

[Rocky]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WHMaeTn4NK0

This one is embodiment of the prodigal son or the lost sheep parables.

Has anyone ever seen Victor Wierwille or Loy Martindale or any other twi official act like this when someone returned to the fold?

[Charity]

On 7/31/2023 at 4:21 PM, Rocky said:

Other than my brain/mind immediately going to "we can only love others as much as we live ourselves," to "as much as we love ourselves..." which happens because I apparently heard and repeated the "love ourselves" enough times when quoted/expounded from Matthew 22:38 to have it indelibly imprinted in my mind... I am disinclined to parse any of the words in that quote. I take it as an organic whole. As such I think it's brilliant and a wonderful basis for living life.

 

I assuming Rocky when you say that "love ourselves" was indelibly imprinted in your mind that you meant while you were in twi.  How did they teach what it meant?  Was it simply a command to love ourselves and then to love others in the same way?  Because that's how I always understood it to mean, and I didn't know much of anything about the Bible until going into twi.   

 

[Charity]

I read something this morning about Matt 22:39 that was like an epiphany for me and I'm rather taken aback by it.  There is a different meaning given to "Thou shall love your neighbour as yourself." 

My understanding has always been that you have to love yourself first before you can love others and that's what many secular books say as well.

However, since this verse is not merely a commandment, but the second great commandment after loving God, a question now comes to mind: Why would God command us to love ourselves?  

If God needs to command that we love ourselves then it must mean we are not always doing so (which would apply to everyone - and especially those who struggle with self-love, self-esteem, self-worth, etc.).  I've always taken this verse to mean then that I have to work on loving myself which I have been trying to do most of my life.  It's what keeps me analyzing my past.  However, I can honestly say this hasn't moved me very far forward spiritually, emotionally, mentally or physically.     

What if this verse doesn't mean I need to love myself before I can love others?  What if loving ourselves has nothing to do with our works?  What if it is something that has already been established for us by God through Christ.  As God's kid, we are beloved of God as much as Jesus is beloved of God. If this is true, then being loved by God is enough - we don't need to add to it by loving ourselves.  If there's any work to be done, it is understanding how perfectly we are loved by Him.  

That's when the focus of verse 39 then becomes on the neighbor and loving them.  

I'm sure there are others here who have figured this out before now.  I'm wondering if anyone knew and practiced this while in twi.

[oldiesman]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:54 AM, Charity said:

 

“We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.  Love is not something we give or get, it’s something that we nurture and grow.  It’s a connection that only can be cultivated when it exists within each one of them.  We can only love others as much as we live ourselves. 

 

That's a good one, thx.    Here's one that I find powerful from of all places the Twilight Zone, from the episode "The Trade-Ins".

"From Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet: "Love gives not but itself and takes not from itself, love possesses not nor would it be possessed, for love is sufficient unto love."   Not a lesson, just a reminder, from all the sentimentalists in the Twilight Zone."
 

[Charity]

1 hour ago, oldiesman said:

That's a good one, thx.    Here's one that I find powerful from of all places the Twilight Zone, from the episode "The Trade-Ins".

"From Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet: "Love gives not but itself and takes not from itself, love possesses not nor would it be possessed, for love is sufficient unto love."   Not a lesson, just a reminder, from all the sentimentalists in the Twilight Zone."

As of today, I have never been a big Twilight Zone fan (meaning there's always hope for the future), but I love the quote.  

[Rocky]

5 hours ago, Charity said:

I assuming Rocky when you say that "love ourselves" was indelibly imprinted in your mind that you meant while you were in twi.  How did they teach what it meant?  Was it simply a command to love ourselves and then to love others in the same way?  Because that's how I always understood it to mean, and I didn't know much of anything about the Bible until going into twi.   

 

Without much insight. 

[Rocky]

Is THIS love? Have you ever experienced ANYONE in twi taking this same attitude?

[chockfull]

The obedience factor is interesting.  Scriptures equate “keeping” commandments with loving God.  Not “obeying” commandments.

Keeping would involve the understanding and internalizing of the teachings to keep them in light of remembering and living them.

Obeying is more of a do what I say communication.

But the sheeples prefer the obey to the keep.