As of today, I have never been a big Twilight Zone fan (meaning there's always hope for the future), but I love the quote.
This was rare for Twilight Zone episodes... pure thoughtfulness, affection and empathy for the feelings of one's spouse. I hope you watch it someday. One other treat of the episode that hopefully won't spoil it for you: they lived in a time when the govt abolished credit cards... everything had to be paid in cash!!
This was rare for Twilight Zone episodes... pure thoughtfulness, affection and empathy for the feelings of one's spouse. I hope you watch it someday. One other treat of the episode that hopefully won't spoil it for you: they lived in a time when the govt abolished credit cards... everything had to be paid in cash!!
I've placed in on hold at the library - just needs to be sent to my branch that I use. I could listen to a radio version online like the good old old days.
In general, I think "keeping" means holding something in your heart; interesting because a few verses say, "for out of the heart flows the issue of life"; "out of the abundance of the heart, a man speaks"; and with the heart, one believes - that kind of thing. Personally, having someone in my heart means I love them, they feel close by, and I think of them. As a kid when asked to keep a secret, we'd cross our fingers and say cross my heart and hope to die.
Whereas "obey" means to do what someone in authority tells you do. Applying this to children, you have those who are bossy like my 4-year-old granddaughter; she is described this way at her day care but then again apparently her and a few friends like bossing each other around - I'm told it's quite cute to watch .
I embrace the explanation (and distinction) you wrote about earlier this morning.
I had not articulated the distinction prior to reading it, but intuitively recognized it was a salient distinction.
4 hours ago, Charity said:
In general, I think "keeping" means holding something in your heart; interesting because a few verses say, "for out of the heart flows the issue of life"; "out of the abundance of the heart, a man speaks"; and with the heart, one believes - that kind of thing. Personally, having someone in my heart means I love them, they feel close by, and I think of them. As a kid when asked to keep a secret, we'd cross our fingers and say cross my heart and hope to die.
Whereas "obey" means to do what someone in authority tells you do. Applying this to children, you have those who are bossy like my 4-year-old granddaughter; she is described this way at her day care but then again apparently her and a few friends like bossing each other around - I'm told it's quite cute to watch .
Love vs lovebombing (which is the action or practice of lavishing someone with attention or affection, especially in order to influence or manipulate them)
I can still remember how I felt at my first "twig" fellowship." I had never been so "fully accepted and the center of attention (which I usually detested, but this felt different). The two wow sisters were so excited I was there to hear God's Word. I actually started to feel good about myself. This continued right up to the Rock of Ages that year and then I went wow and things changed quickly. The love of God was around and at times I became the lovebomber instead of the lovebombee. But so much of the self-doubt returned along with a loss of knowing God's love. The reason I was so happy to get my "wow" pin was not because of the great year I had, but that I survived it.
If ministries (cults) like twi need to use lovebombing to lure people in, what does that say about their ability to simply love people?
The reason I was so happy to get my "wow" pin was not because of the great year I had, but that I survived it.
I'm confident there have been MANY MANY people who share that perspective.
Can you now appreciate the experience as having empowered you, as a result of having survived, to more deeply grasp the significance of the lovebombing from the perspective of each side?
I'm glad you survived.
It's now been more than 40 years since I ventured out on the WOW ambassador adventure. And it truly was an adventure. When I ventured out in June 2021 to drive cross-country, eastbound I drove unaccompanied. One of the highlights was passing through several states encountering billions and billions of trees and being thankful for them.
On the return trip, my passenger was a long-time 9th corpse brother. He had spent a year in Erie, PA. We took a very brief detour off of the Interstate to see where he did so. Later in the day, we made it to Fremont, OH, where I showed him the two houses my motley crew (I wasn't the honcho, just one of the crew) lived that year. One of the highlights was the Rutherford B Hayes presidential library on his estate named Spiegel Grove
This was rare for Twilight Zone episodes... pure thoughtfulness, affection and empathy for the feelings of one's spouse. I hope you watch it someday. One other treat of the episode that hopefully won't spoil it for you: they lived in a time when the govt abolished credit cards... everything had to be paid in cash!!
I listened to the radio version waysider provided. It was a great story about the unselfishness of love between two people whose love lasted a lifetime. Very heartwarming. Thanks.
“Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” in Matthew 22 is also said to mean to treat others the way you would treat yourself. That phrase is used 5 other times: Lev 19:18,34; Rom 13:9-10; Gal 5:13 and Jam 2:8 and their contexts are always about how to act kindly towards other.
As for the mention of self-love in other verses, I only know of 2 Tim 3:2-4 which talks of loving ourselves in a self-indulgent way, “2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent (without self-control), fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady (reckless), high minded (puffed up), lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
It's easy to conclude that those "lovers of their own selves" in twi were not lovers of God and hurt a great number of people, many of whom were so confused by their fake form of godliness and others thinking if it's okay for the big chiefs to act this way then it must be okay for me to do so as well.
It's very difficult to truly learn to love or experience love in a cult like twi.
It's easy to conclude that those "lovers of their own selves" in twi were not lovers of God and hurt a great number of people, many of whom were so confused by their fake form of godliness and others thinking if it's okay for the big chiefs to act this way then it must be okay for me to do so as well.
It's very difficult to truly learn to love or experience love in a cult like twi.
I listened to the radio version waysider provided. It was a great story about the unselfishness of love between two people whose love lasted a lifetime. Very heartwarming. Thanks.
Yes it was. Another high note of compassion was the gambling boss who could have cleaned him out but instead let him have his money back.
Yes it was. Another high note of compassion was the gambling boss who could have cleaned him out but instead let him have his money back.
I forgot about him - you wouldn’t think a gambling boss would be the compassionate kind, yet this one was.
In the gospels, Jesus showed compassion when feeding the multitudes and healing people and even now he has compassion for us when we are struggling because he went through the same struggles himself. And as the elect of God, holy and beloved, we also are to have compassion like Jesus Christ. There was something obviously wrong with twi where it's 3 presidents were known for their hardheartedness and lack of compassion over and over again as shared by posters here.
There was something obviously wrong with twi where it's 3 presidents were known for their hardheartedness and lack of compassion over and over again as shared by posters here.
Great post and thanks! I disagree with her findings because I feel love is something we are given. We are given the ability to express human love by God and we the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the spirit he has given us..moving onwards here...
This paragraph is thought provoking for me. You know a lot of the issues Im dealing with as far as PTSD or even CPTSD in my case and a lot of this makes sense to me. So much of our disposition has been influenced by our verious environments through different seasons of life. Ive had to learn so many things because of my extremely dysfunctional upbringing. Ive had to learn how to love and how to trust and it's in the context of setting boundaries to help navigate relationships. But I feel for most people love is learned by example and taught primarily in the home. but love is something we are given...the question is do we know what to do with love and are we capable of expressing love once we experience it.
My answers to your questions are yes some of the time. Other times, I would answer each with a no. It depends on different variables for me, but when the answer is no, a follow-up question of “Why not?” would be helpful instead of shutting down emotionally and missing out on what could have been a wonderful experience.
I knew there was a need for this topic, especially in light of the fountainous bullshonta developing in the other thread. Thank you, Charity, for starting it.
This resonates. I think this may be foundational to sociopathy and associated personality disorders like NPD and BPD.
This resonates with me, as well. Thank you.
------
Love is NOT conditional, transactional.
Love is complete acceptance of what actually is, not what we want or hope something to be. This is especially true for love of self, something I've struggled with my entire life.
I agree that living in denial or constantly coming down hard on ourselves is unhealthy. Apparently, I'm so practiced in the latter that I can do it without even knowing I'm doing it .
There's the Serenity Prayer: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
Knowing I cannot change the past nor what others choose to do are two that come to mind. Even some personality traits are probably beyond my ability to change in this lifetime.
But there's the promise of 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
The light came on in my mind this evening. Or, I had an epiphany. Or, put another way, the rivers/streams of my understanding flowed together (greek; sunesis) in what became a lovely recognition of the overall meaning of the last 49 years of my life.
Boy oh boy do I have a lot to write about. I won't bore anyone here right this moment.
Long time readers may recall how I have highlighted the concept of social belonging.
For me, twi, 49 years ago seemed like "The WAY," God's way. Midway or so through the 1980s, disillusionment with the organization and with Victor Wierwille and Loy Martindale caused the scales to fall off of my eyes, so to speak.
Since then, I've had many heartaches and epiphanies.
Tonight's lightbulb moment came when I read in The Atlantic about a societal epidemic of loneliness and then something a medical professional not currently seeking to make his fortune (like Victor W apparently did in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s) put together a document with an overview of that epidemic and included some ideas on how to build community.
Ultimately, it fits with this thread about LOVE.
So, I have to thank our friend and sister Charity for her longing for understanding. For her willingness to put that longing out into the ether in words, for our GSC community to contribute to our sunesis.
I knew there was a need for this topic, especially in light of the fountainous bullshonta developing in the other thread. Thank you, Charity, for starting it.
This resonates. I think this may be foundational to sociopathy and associated personality disorders like NPD and BPD.
This resonates with me, as well. Thank you.
------
Love is NOT conditional, transactional.
Love is complete acceptance of what actually is, not what we want or hope something to be. This is especially true for love of self, something I've struggled with my entire life.
I was looking at the statement of beliefs on twi's website and at the bottom it says,
For the Glory of God and the Accuracy of His Word
For Those Who Want to Know
Obviously, the first line is not true since they continue to teach the Word "according to vp," who according to their fictional description of the founder writes, "For over forty years, Dr. Wierwille devoted his major energies to intensive research and teaching of the accuracy of God’s Word." (Makes you wonder what his "minor" energies went into .)
It's the second line, "For Those Who Want to Know." To me, it strongly suggests exclusivity which we know they were famous for under the first 3 presidents. Why not declare, "For all who want to know;" better yet, why have a second line at all?
Is it trying to compliment people into taking pfalt? If so, it reminds me of The National Enquirer's slogan, "Enquiring minds want to know." Whatever their reason, it does not sound like unconditional love.
This resonates with me. I can understand an interpretation of Matt 22:39 in the sense of that expressing a healthy, balanced, and beneficial love that starts with a love of self and can be expressed freely as loving others.
An unhealthy, imbalanced, or maladaptive love does not have a healthy balance of self love and love of others. Addictions fall under this kind of love. Or permutations of abuse.
Viewing love as an action verb helps IMO. The more love is fueled by action and good will the more it catalyzes great things in the world.
The more love is relegated to an emotion, a feeling, or a passing state the more it is robbed of power and effect.
To me it also makes sense to talk about love in the essence of a combination of logic and emotion, head and heart, and involving one’s entire being.
I guess that is my opinionated answer on what works and what doesn’t work.
I'm glad you mentioned addictions. An addiction does begin with an unhealthy focus on self and remains that way as it progresses. Guilt* and shame become the main focal points and eventually one will end up wasting away in a pit of that stuff (it's heartbreaking to see). Not only do guilt and shame add fuel to the fire, but they can also get in the way of recovery.
*Focusing on the guilt alone, without making amends, is self-destructive.
Because of the name of this thread, I'll mention the terms "love addiction" and "sexual addiction" [aka compulsive sexual disorder disorder] as well. They are called addictions because the behaviors associated with each can become a major, constant focus in one's life, are difficult to control, cause problems in one's life, or are harmful to you or others. However, neither are recognized as clinical terms or are included in the DSM-5.
Your point about love as an action verb is an important one to remember. It's plain to see love when someone does volunteer work from their heart, but the opportunities to be kind and help others frequently come our way.
I love Phil Collins and his song "Another Day in Paradise" speaks of the need to reach out and help - like the two videos Rocky showed about dogs - but with humans.
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Charity
I was looking at the statement of beliefs on twi's website and at the bottom it says, For the Glory of God and the Accuracy of His Word For Those Who Want to Know Obviously, the first line
redrock and blues
Only if you choose to see it that way.
Charity
In general, I think "keeping" means holding something in your heart; interesting because a few verses say, "for out of the heart flows the issue of life"; "out of the abundance of the heart, a man sp
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Rocky
hmmm... intriguing distinction. keep vs obey.
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oldiesman
This was rare for Twilight Zone episodes... pure thoughtfulness, affection and empathy for the feelings of one's spouse. I hope you watch it someday. One other treat of the episode that hopefully won't spoil it for you: they lived in a time when the govt abolished credit cards... everything had to be paid in cash!!
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Charity
I've placed in on hold at the library - just needs to be sent to my branch that I use. I could listen to a radio version online like the good old old days.
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waysider
The radio version is actually quite good.
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Charity
In general, I think "keeping" means holding something in your heart; interesting because a few verses say, "for out of the heart flows the issue of life"; "out of the abundance of the heart, a man speaks"; and with the heart, one believes - that kind of thing. Personally, having someone in my heart means I love them, they feel close by, and I think of them. As a kid when asked to keep a secret, we'd cross our fingers and say cross my heart and hope to die.
Whereas "obey" means to do what someone in authority tells you do. Applying this to children, you have those who are bossy like my 4-year-old granddaughter; she is described this way at her day care but then again apparently her and a few friends like bossing each other around - I'm told it's quite cute to watch
.
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Charity
Cool
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Charity
hmmm... how so
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Rocky
I embrace the explanation (and distinction) you wrote about earlier this morning.
I had not articulated the distinction prior to reading it, but intuitively recognized it was a salient distinction.
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oldiesman
yes, thank you!
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chockfull
Well that got my hopes up that it might be my favorite rendition of the song. It is a bit SNL risqué lol.
Edited by chockfullNight at the Roxbury if you haven’t seen that movie it’s epic.
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Charity
Love it! Watched it 3 times.
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Charity
Love vs lovebombing (which is the action or practice of lavishing someone with attention or affection, especially in order to influence or manipulate them)
I can still remember how I felt at my first "twig" fellowship." I had never been so "fully accepted and the center of attention (which I usually detested, but this felt different). The two wow sisters were so excited I was there to hear God's Word. I actually started to feel good about myself. This continued right up to the Rock of Ages that year and then I went wow and things changed quickly. The love of God was around and at times I became the lovebomber instead of the lovebombee. But so much of the self-doubt returned along with a loss of knowing God's love. The reason I was so happy to get my "wow" pin was not because of the great year I had, but that I survived it.
If ministries (cults) like twi need to use lovebombing to lure people in, what does that say about their ability to simply love people?
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Rocky
I'm confident there have been MANY MANY people who share that perspective.
Can you now appreciate the experience as having empowered you, as a result of having survived, to more deeply grasp the significance of the lovebombing from the perspective of each side?
I'm glad you survived.
It's now been more than 40 years since I ventured out on the WOW ambassador adventure. And it truly was an adventure. When I ventured out in June 2021 to drive cross-country, eastbound I drove unaccompanied. One of the highlights was passing through several states encountering billions and billions of trees and being thankful for them.
On the return trip, my passenger was a long-time 9th corpse brother. He had spent a year in Erie, PA. We took a very brief detour off of the Interstate to see where he did so. Later in the day, we made it to Fremont, OH, where I showed him the two houses my motley crew (I wasn't the honcho, just one of the crew) lived that year. One of the highlights was the Rutherford B Hayes presidential library on his estate named Spiegel Grove
But I digress.
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Charity
I listened to the radio version waysider provided. It was a great story about the unselfishness of love between two people whose love lasted a lifetime. Very heartwarming. Thanks.
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Charity
“Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” in Matthew 22 is also said to mean to treat others the way you would treat yourself. That phrase is used 5 other times: Lev 19:18,34; Rom 13:9-10; Gal 5:13 and Jam 2:8 and their contexts are always about how to act kindly towards other.
As for the mention of self-love in other verses, I only know of 2 Tim 3:2-4 which talks of loving ourselves in a self-indulgent way, “2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent (without self-control), fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady (reckless), high minded (puffed up), lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
It's easy to conclude that those "lovers of their own selves" in twi were not lovers of God and hurt a great number of people, many of whom were so confused by their fake form of godliness and others thinking if it's okay for the big chiefs to act this way then it must be okay for me to do so as well.
It's very difficult to truly learn to love or experience love in a cult like twi.
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Rocky
We take for granted the idea that power corrupts. Dacher Keltner shows how that happens in the book documenting his research, The Power Paradox: How We Gain and Lose Influence.
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oldiesman
Yes it was. Another high note of compassion was the gambling boss who could have cleaned him out but instead let him have his money back.
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Charity
I forgot about him - you wouldn’t think a gambling boss would be the compassionate kind, yet this one was.
In the gospels, Jesus showed compassion when feeding the multitudes and healing people and even now he has compassion for us when we are struggling because he went through the same struggles himself. And as the elect of God, holy and beloved, we also are to have compassion like Jesus Christ. There was something obviously wrong with twi where it's 3 presidents were known for their hardheartedness and lack of compassion over and over again as shared by posters here.
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Rocky
YES!
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Charity
My answers to your questions are yes some of the time. Other times, I would answer each with a no. It depends on different variables for me, but when the answer is no, a follow-up question of “Why not?” would be helpful instead of shutting down emotionally and missing out on what could have been a wonderful experience.
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Charity
I agree that living in denial or constantly coming down hard on ourselves is unhealthy. Apparently, I'm so practiced in the latter that I can do it without even knowing I'm doing it
.
There's the Serenity Prayer: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
Knowing I cannot change the past nor what others choose to do are two that come to mind. Even some personality traits are probably beyond my ability to change in this lifetime.
But there's the promise of 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
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Rocky
The light came on in my mind this evening. Or, I had an epiphany. Or, put another way, the rivers/streams of my understanding flowed together (greek; sunesis) in what became a lovely recognition of the overall meaning of the last 49 years of my life.
Boy oh boy do I have a lot to write about. I won't bore anyone here right this moment.
Long time readers may recall how I have highlighted the concept of social belonging.
For me, twi, 49 years ago seemed like "The WAY," God's way. Midway or so through the 1980s, disillusionment with the organization and with Victor Wierwille and Loy Martindale caused the scales to fall off of my eyes, so to speak.
Since then, I've had many heartaches and epiphanies.
Tonight's lightbulb moment came when I read in The Atlantic about a societal epidemic of loneliness and then something a medical professional not currently seeking to make his fortune (like Victor W apparently did in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s) put together a document with an overview of that epidemic and included some ideas on how to build community.
Ultimately, it fits with this thread about LOVE.
So, I have to thank our friend and sister Charity for her longing for understanding. For her willingness to put that longing out into the ether in words, for our GSC community to contribute to our sunesis.
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Charity
I was looking at the statement of beliefs on twi's website and at the bottom it says,
For the Glory of God and the Accuracy of His Word
For Those Who Want to Know
Obviously, the first line is not true since they continue to teach the Word "according to vp," who according to their fictional description of the founder writes, "For over forty years, Dr. Wierwille devoted his major energies to intensive research and teaching of the accuracy of God’s Word." (Makes you wonder what his "minor" energies went into
.)
It's the second line, "For Those Who Want to Know." To me, it strongly suggests exclusivity which we know they were famous for under the first 3 presidents. Why not declare, "For all who want to know;" better yet, why have a second line at all?
Is it trying to compliment people into taking pfalt? If so, it reminds me of The National Enquirer's slogan, "Enquiring minds want to know." Whatever their reason, it does not sound like unconditional love.
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Charity
I'm glad you mentioned addictions. An addiction does begin with an unhealthy focus on self and remains that way as it progresses. Guilt* and shame become the main focal points and eventually one will end up wasting away in a pit of that stuff (it's heartbreaking to see). Not only do guilt and shame add fuel to the fire, but they can also get in the way of recovery.
*Focusing on the guilt alone, without making amends, is self-destructive.
Because of the name of this thread, I'll mention the terms "love addiction" and "sexual addiction" [aka compulsive sexual disorder disorder] as well. They are called addictions because the behaviors associated with each can become a major, constant focus in one's life, are difficult to control, cause problems in one's life, or are harmful to you or others. However, neither are recognized as clinical terms or are included in the DSM-5.
Compulsive sexual behavior - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic
Love Addiction: What It Really Means and How to Handle It (healthline.com)
Your point about love as an action verb is an important one to remember. It's plain to see love when someone does volunteer work from their heart, but the opportunities to be kind and help others frequently come our way.
I love Phil Collins and his song "Another Day in Paradise" speaks of the need to reach out and help - like the two videos Rocky showed about dogs - but with humans.
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