In The Power of Vulnerability, Brene Brown says, "We can only love others as much as we live ourselves." and she gives an example why she believes this. Matthew 22:39 says, And the second is like unto it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Many others, including me, would say I love my children more than I love myself and I find some truth in this. I would do anything for my children to keep them safe, loved, cared for, etc., and I mean this with all my heart. But how is it that I would know how to love them one way, a better way, than I know to love myself and if I could, why would I not love myself in that same way? Is it because they're more deserving than I am, or that I want them to "turn out healthier" than I did? Yes on both accounts.
However, I believe one has to take into account what we grew up learning about love and has since become "hardwired" in our brains like a default setting. If a child grows up believing love cannot be trusted, that they're unlovable or not worthy of love, that loving someone means neglecting their own needs or that love means sex, these negative beliefs are not easy to change as an adult. What are the chances then that they might affect how I act towards my children, spouse, etc. On this forum, I've heard how time spent in twi changed healthy beliefs about loving yourself and others into self-hatred or a distrust of love. We learned that even the love of God was conditional and became hard-hearted towards certain others.
When trying to figure this all out, there are self-help books, counselling and therapy on the one hand, and on the other are what scriptures teach like 2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love and of power and of a sound mind; and 1 Thes 4:9 But as touching brotherly love, ye need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
“We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.Love is not something we give or get, it’s something that we nurture and grow.It’s a connection that only can be cultivated when it exists within each one of them.We can only love others as much as we live ourselves.
Great post and thanks! I disagree with her findings because I feel love is something we are given. We are given the ability to express human love by God and we the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the spirit he has given us..moving onwards here...
5 minutes ago, Charity said:
However, I believe one has to take into account what we grew up learning about love and has since become "hardwired" in our brains like a default setting. If a child grows up believing love cannot be trusted, that they're unlovable or not worthy of love, that loving someone means neglecting their own needs or that love means sex, these negative beliefs are not easy to change as an adult. What are the chances then that they might affect how I act towards my children, spouse, etc. On this forum, I've heard how time spent in twi changed healthy beliefs about loving yourself and others into self-hatred or a distrust of love. We learned that even the love of God was conditional and became hard-hearted towards certain others.
This paragraph is thought provoking for me. You know a lot of the issues Im dealing with as far as PTSD or even CPTSD in my case and a lot of this makes sense to me. So much of our disposition has been influenced by our verious environments through different seasons of life. Ive had to learn so many things because of my extremely dysfunctional upbringing. Ive had to learn how to love and how to trust and it's in the context of setting boundaries to help navigate relationships. But I feel for most people love is learned by example and taught primarily in the home. but love is something we are given...the question is do we know what to do with love and are we capable of expressing love once we experience it.
This paragraph is thought provoking for me. You know a lot of the issues Im dealing with as far as PTSD or even CPTSD in my case and a lot of this makes sense to me. So much of our disposition has been influenced by our verious environments through different seasons of life. Ive had to learn so many things because of my extremely dysfunctional upbringing. Ive had to learn how to love and how to trust and it's in the context of setting boundaries to help navigate relationships. But I feel for most people love is learned by example and taught primarily in the home. but love is something we are given...the question is do we know what to do with love and are we capable of expressing love once we experience it.
I really like that you mentioned boundaries. I immediately thought of what I've learned previously about them from books and counselling, but then I thought of googling if there are boundaries in the Bible. I expected to get a bunch of websites about O.T.'s division of land, but I was wrong. This is one of them that I liked (haven't read the whole article yet). It mentions Jehovah Rapha in a title at the top which means "The Lord who Heals" and a short "Meet the Author" speaks of personal healing within her marriage where sexual addiction was involved.
I knew there was a need for this topic, especially in light of the fountainous bullshonta developing in the other thread. Thank you, Charity, for starting it.
1 hour ago, Charity said:
However, I believe one has to take into account what we grew up learning about love and has since become "hardwired" in our brains like a default setting. If a child grows up believing love cannot be trusted, that they're unlovable or not worthy of love, that loving someone means neglecting their own needs or that love means sex, these negative beliefs are not easy to change as an adult. What are the chances then that they might affect how I act towards my children, spouse, etc.
This resonates. I think this may be foundational to sociopathy and associated personality disorders like NPD and BPD.
1 hour ago, OldSkool said:
This paragraph is thought provoking for me. You know a lot of the issues Im dealing with as far as PTSD or even CPTSD in my case and a lot of this makes sense to me. So much of our disposition has been influenced by our verious environments through different seasons of life. Ive had to learn so many things because of my extremely dysfunctional upbringing. Ive had to learn how to love and how to trust and it's in the context of setting boundaries to help navigate relationships. But I feel for most people love is learned by example and taught primarily in the home. but love is something we are given...the question is do we know what to do with love and are we capable of expressing love once we experience it.
This resonates with me, as well. Thank you.
------
Love is NOT conditional, transactional.
Love is complete acceptance of what actually is, not what we want or hope something to be. This is especially true for love of self, something I've struggled with my entire life.
What a wonderful idea you had, Charity, for this discussion topic.
Thanks for this.
I agree with OldSkool that God is a very generous giver of free gifts because of His love and through these gifts we are able to love ourselves and others. Again, I think of "charity never fails" which speaks of the power of the love of God.
I was wondering what you thought of the quote from above:
“We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.Love is not something we give or get, it’s something that we nurture and grow.It’s a connection that only can be cultivated when it exists within each one of them.We can only love others as much as we live ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows.Love can only survive its injuries if they’re acknowledged, healed and rare.”
In the quote above, she speaks of cultivating love as opposed to giving or getting it, but she does use the word "offering" when talking about allowing our "most vulnerable and powerful selves" to be deeply seen and known. I think that is something we do give to others to receive, as well as honoring the connection she speaks of - it also implies a giving of ourselves to do so.
“We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.Love is not something we give or get, it’s something that we nurture and grow.It’s a connection that only can be cultivated when it exists within each one of them.We can only love others as much as we live ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows.Love can only survive its injuries if they’re acknowledged, healed and rare.”
Interesting really. I feel she offers a bit of wisdom here because love is cultivated. And I don't think it's necessarily a stand alone emotion, I mean which of them are? So would it be correct to say that love is cultivated and grows in a trusting environment with proper boundaries, where encouraging words are spoken and not ridicule? I mention ridicule because I grew up with a lot of ridicule even though it was disguised as humor. So trust, kindness, respect, acceftion...perhaps all of them come to play in cultivating love....just thinking on my keyboard here....havent thought about these things in some time now...
I agree with OldSkool that God is a very generous giver of free gifts because of His love and through these gifts we are able to love ourselves and others. Again, I think of "charity never fails" which speaks of the power of the love of God.
I was wondering what you thought of the quote from above:
“We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.Love is not something we give or get, it’s something that we nurture and grow.It’s a connection that only can be cultivated when it exists within each one of them.We can only love others as much as we live [LOVE?] ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows.Love can only survive its injuries if they’re acknowledged, healed and rare.”
In the quote above, she speaks of cultivating love as opposed to giving or getting it, but she does use the word "offering" when talking about allowing our "most vulnerable and powerful selves" to be deeply seen and known. I think that is something we do give to others to receive, as well as honoring the connection she speaks of - it also implies a giving of ourselves to do so.
Other than my brain/mind immediately going to "we can only love others as much as we live ourselves," to "as much as we love ourselves..." which happens because I apparently heard and repeated the "love ourselves" enough times when quoted/expounded from Matthew 22:38 to have it indelibly imprinted in my mind... I am disinclined to parse any of the words in that quote. I take it as an organic whole. As such I think it's brilliant and a wonderful basis for living life.
In that sense, I see it as aspirational, rather than cause for judging either myself or others (i.e. Mike). Nevertheless, it doesn't preclude measuring people like Mike and his words/actions, against what I've learned over the course of three decades since I started exploring psychosocial matters with a view to understanding myself... and hence others too.
IOW, I can accept Mike as a "seeker who decided" and separate that from his advocacy for all things Wierwille.
In The Power of Vulnerability, Brene Brown says, "We can only love others as much as we live ourselves." and she gives an example why she believes this. Matthew 22:39 says, And the second is like unto it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Many others, including me, would say I love my children more than I love myself and I find some truth in this. I would do anything for my children to keep them safe, loved, cared for, etc., and I mean this with all my heart. But how is it that I would know how to love them one way, a better way, than I know to love myself and if I could, why would I not love myself in that same way? Is it because they're more deserving than I am, or that I want them to "turn out healthier" than I did? Yes on both accounts.
However, I believe one has to take into account what we grew up learning about love and has since become "hardwired" in our brains like a default setting. If a child grows up believing love cannot be trusted, that they're unlovable or not worthy of love, that loving someone means neglecting their own needs or that love means sex, these negative beliefs are not easy to change as an adult. What are the chances then that they might affect how I act towards my children, spouse, etc. On this forum, I've heard how time spent in twi changed healthy beliefs about loving yourself and others into self-hatred or a distrust of love. We learned that even the love of God was conditional and became hard-hearted towards certain others.
When trying to figure this all out, there are self-help books, counselling and therapy on the one hand, and on the other are what scriptures teach like 2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love and of power and of a sound mind; and 1 Thes 4:9 But as touching brotherly love, ye need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
What works and what doesn't work?
This resonates with me. I can understand an interpretation of Matt 22:39 in the sense of that expressing a healthy, balanced, and beneficial love that starts with a love of self and can be expressed freely as loving others.
An unhealthy, imbalanced, or maladaptive love does not have a healthy balance of self love and love of others. Addictions fall under this kind of love. Or permutations of abuse.
Viewing love as an action verb helps IMO. The more love is fueled by action and good will the more it catalyzes great things in the world.
The more love is relegated to an emotion, a feeling, or a passing state the more it is robbed of power and effect.
To me it also makes sense to talk about love in the essence of a combination of logic and emotion, head and heart, and involving one’s entire being.
I guess that is my opinionated answer on what works and what doesn’t work.
Speaking of LOVE... this seems to illustrated it well.
Oh, the shivering he does is so sad. But that's how trauma affects our minds and bodies as well. And you're right about the power of love - it took his fears away and brought healing to his cute, cuddly little body.
Interesting really. I feel she offers a bit of wisdom here because love is cultivated. And I don't think it's necessarily a stand alone emotion, I mean which of them are? So would it be correct to say that love is cultivated and grows in a trusting environment with proper boundaries, where encouraging words are spoken and not ridicule? I mention ridicule because I grew up with a lot of ridicule even though it was disguised as humor. So trust, kindness, respect, affection...perhaps all of them come to play in cultivating love....just thinking on my keyboard here....haven't thought about these things in some time now...
I like the words cultivate and grow because babies are not born with self-esteem issues - those are developed along the way. The environment you describe above gives a true sense of safety and contentment - where people can stand tall and breathe in confidence and happiness. It's so life-affirming. The author goes on to talk about how today's culture is particularly shame based which brings to mind the image of wilting flowers. By shame-based, she means the use of shame, personal attacks and teardowns in order to be heard which basically is what some reality shows are built on and then called entertainment. In fact, this can be seen here on GSC from the posts of a certain member. Now that's interesting. Was the unloving nature of this habit cultivated only while in twi or even earlier in life? I would think though that everyone everywhere has to be on watch against doing this either habitually or if only now and again.
Other than my brain/mind immediately going to "we can only love others as much as we live ourselves," to "as much as we love ourselves..." which happens because I apparently heard and repeated the "love ourselves" enough times when quoted/expounded from Matthew 22:38 to have it indelibly imprinted in my mind... I am disinclined to parse any of the words in that quote. I take it as an organic whole. As such I think it's brilliant and a wonderful basis for living life.
In that sense, I see it as aspirational, rather than cause for judging either myself or others (i.e. Mike). Nevertheless, it doesn't preclude measuring people like Mike and his words/actions, against what I've learned over the course of three decades since I started exploring psychosocial matters with a view to understanding myself... and hence others too.
IOW, I can accept Mike as a "seeker who decided" and separate that from his advocacy for all things Wierwille.
Thank you for catching that typo - it made me laugh. Speaking of the quote being an organic whole, I often think of the first and second great commandments as being independent thoughts instead of being interrelated by the word love as it is talked about throughout 1 John.
I've also spent much of my adult life with the goal of understanding myself and others even to the point of studying the brain and how it figures into all of it. Learning how the past influences our thoughts, feelings and behaviors of the present is fascinating to me. My experience though has shown me that understanding myself isn't enough to move me forward very far nor does it prevent slipping backwards from happening. That's why my goal now is to stay focused on the healing power of love, especially the love of God, instead of visiting the topic now and then. I just need to get clear on what "staying focused" involves .
I knew there was a need for this topic, especially in light of the fountainous bullshonta developing in the other thread. Thank you, Charity, for starting it. YW
This resonates. I think this may be foundational to sociopathy and associated personality disorders like NPD and BPD. This is referring to the following, "However, I believe one has to take into account what we grew up learning about love and has since become "hardwired" in our brains like a default setting. If a child grows up believing love cannot be trusted, that they're unlovable or not worthy of love, that loving someone means neglecting their own needs or that love means sex, these negative beliefs are not easy to change as an adult."
~~~~~~~~~
I've read something to that effect about personality disorders. I don't remember though reading about managing the disorders. I'll go back and check it out again as I'm interested in knowing more.
------
Love is NOT conditional, transactional.
Love is complete acceptance of what actually is, not what we want or hope something to be. This is especially true for love of self, something I've struggled with my entire life.
I've been thinking about this part of your post for a while and am having some kind of mental block with it. Probably because dealing with my own personal lifetime struggle with having, or even allowing for the possibility of having, self-love is like facing a Goliath at times. The thing is David defeated the giant as a feisty teenager after demanding to know "who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?" Since having David's boldness and trust in God is available to us today, I'm giving more thought to it.
Thank you for catching that typo - it made me laugh. Speaking of the quote being an organic whole, I often think of the first and second great commandments as being independent thoughts instead of being interrelated by the word love as it is talked about throughout 1 John.
LOL... seeing the word live there was a simple case of cognitive dissonance.
Thanks very much, Rocky. It's touching how the pup fiercely resisted an unperceived gesture of kindness and love because of fear and pain, yet the woman persisted in such a gentle way. Also, to see how Snappy learned to accept love and give love while letting go of both the fear and pain. It makes me think how isolating oneself from others out of emotional fear and pain brings no enlightenment or healing. As well is how reaching out to someone who is hurting but wants to be left alone, is loving not only in words, but in deeds. When you see the power of human love, how much more powerful is Godly love once one learns to trust it. The way ministry helped both to damage, and in some cases, ruin that trust for many.
LOL... seeing the word live there was a simple case of cognitive dissonance.
Thinking this could have been a very real possibility made me chuckle at first, but cognitive dissonance does come into play in the arena of our minds when thoughts of love meet up with thoughts of being unlovable or unworthy of love. Snappy was blessed when someone reached out to him/her with kindness and love. What prevents us from reaching out to ourselves in that way. Experiencing a lot of shame as children comes to mind as shame results in "I'm" statements - I'm bad; I'm useless, etc. - it's a focus placed on self and keeps us away from wanting to be with others. Shame is not only very different from guilt, but it prevents us from having guilt. Guilt focuses on our behaviour (I was rude to my friend) which makes it possible to choose to make amends. I'm beginning to understand now that when I have trouble accepting the fact that I've made a mistake, I'm probably feeling shame instead of guilt. How much was shame used to keep believers down and subservient to leaders in twi. Shame is not of God.
We're going to eventually move this thread to doctrinal, but keeping it here for the time being for exposure and easy access.
I appreciate that Raf. As much as learning to accept and give love is cultivated or hindered in childhood, being in twi made things so much harder to know what love is. Example, the rod (spoon) of correction used for years on toddlers and children. In their recent magazine, no mention of this old barbaric tactic is mentioned because they were told during the lawsuit against them that it had to stop. But what about the emotional and physical fear and pain children lived with and most likely carried with them for years later, as well as the guilt parents felt later on by following twi's doctrine of how to love our children?
Question: Was the prominent habit of using the spoon taught because of vp's belief and practice of how to train his dogs? There are so many examples of twi teaching us how not to love ourselves or others and having to unlearn it all doesn't come overnight - it takes for some people decades to work through it.
However, you're the moderator and I respect your decision. (hot chocolate with whipped cream for me ) I'll PM you.
If we want to talk about how TWI distorted the definition of love for its selfish ends, the thread belongs here.
If we want to talk about what love really is and should be, the thread belongs in doctrinal. My initial impression was the latter. If I was mistaken I will reconsider, but either way, the thread stays put for now because the subject matter certainly overlaps.
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Charity
I was looking at the statement of beliefs on twi's website and at the bottom it says, For the Glory of God and the Accuracy of His Word For Those Who Want to Know Obviously, the first line
redrock and blues
Only if you choose to see it that way.
Charity
In general, I think "keeping" means holding something in your heart; interesting because a few verses say, "for out of the heart flows the issue of life"; "out of the abundance of the heart, a man sp
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Charity
In The Power of Vulnerability, Brene Brown says, "We can only love others as much as we live ourselves." and she gives an example why she believes this. Matthew 22:39 says, And the second is like unto it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Many others, including me, would say I love my children more than I love myself and I find some truth in this. I would do anything for my children to keep them safe, loved, cared for, etc., and I mean this with all my heart. But how is it that I would know how to love them one way, a better way, than I know to love myself and if I could, why would I not love myself in that same way? Is it because they're more deserving than I am, or that I want them to "turn out healthier" than I did? Yes on both accounts.
However, I believe one has to take into account what we grew up learning about love and has since become "hardwired" in our brains like a default setting. If a child grows up believing love cannot be trusted, that they're unlovable or not worthy of love, that loving someone means neglecting their own needs or that love means sex, these negative beliefs are not easy to change as an adult. What are the chances then that they might affect how I act towards my children, spouse, etc. On this forum, I've heard how time spent in twi changed healthy beliefs about loving yourself and others into self-hatred or a distrust of love. We learned that even the love of God was conditional and became hard-hearted towards certain others.
When trying to figure this all out, there are self-help books, counselling and therapy on the one hand, and on the other are what scriptures teach like 2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love and of power and of a sound mind; and 1 Thes 4:9 But as touching brotherly love, ye need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
What works and what doesn't work?
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OldSkool
Great post and thanks! I disagree with her findings because I feel love is something we are given. We are given the ability to express human love by God and we the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the spirit he has given us..moving onwards here...
This paragraph is thought provoking for me. You know a lot of the issues Im dealing with as far as PTSD or even CPTSD in my case and a lot of this makes sense to me. So much of our disposition has been influenced by our verious environments through different seasons of life. Ive had to learn so many things because of my extremely dysfunctional upbringing. Ive had to learn how to love and how to trust and it's in the context of setting boundaries to help navigate relationships. But I feel for most people love is learned by example and taught primarily in the home. but love is something we are given...the question is do we know what to do with love and are we capable of expressing love once we experience it.
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Rocky
What a wonderful idea you had, Charity, for this discussion topic.
Thanks for this.
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Charity
I really like that you mentioned boundaries. I immediately thought of what I've learned previously about them from books and counselling, but then I thought of googling if there are boundaries in the Bible. I expected to get a bunch of websites about O.T.'s division of land, but I was wrong. This is one of them that I liked (haven't read the whole article yet). It mentions Jehovah Rapha in a title at the top which means "The Lord who Heals" and a short "Meet the Author" speaks of personal healing within her marriage where sexual addiction was involved.
5 More Principles of Biblical Boundaries we Learn from God. - His Dearly Loved Daughter Ministries
Your last sentence has two very good questions to come back to and think about.
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Rocky
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Nathan_Jr
I knew there was a need for this topic, especially in light of the fountainous bullshonta developing in the other thread. Thank you, Charity, for starting it.
This resonates. I think this may be foundational to sociopathy and associated personality disorders like NPD and BPD.
This resonates with me, as well. Thank you.
------
Love is NOT conditional, transactional.
Love is complete acceptance of what actually is, not what we want or hope something to be. This is especially true for love of self, something I've struggled with my entire life.
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Charity
I agree with OldSkool that God is a very generous giver of free gifts because of His love and through these gifts we are able to love ourselves and others. Again, I think of "charity never fails" which speaks of the power of the love of God.
I was wondering what you thought of the quote from above:
“We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection. Love is not something we give or get, it’s something that we nurture and grow. It’s a connection that only can be cultivated when it exists within each one of them. We can only love others as much as we live ourselves.
Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal and the withholding of affection damage the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive its injuries if they’re acknowledged, healed and rare.”
In the quote above, she speaks of cultivating love as opposed to giving or getting it, but she does use the word "offering" when talking about allowing our "most vulnerable and powerful selves" to be deeply seen and known. I think that is something we do give to others to receive, as well as honoring the connection she speaks of - it also implies a giving of ourselves to do so.
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OldSkool
Interesting really. I feel she offers a bit of wisdom here because love is cultivated. And I don't think it's necessarily a stand alone emotion, I mean which of them are? So would it be correct to say that love is cultivated and grows in a trusting environment with proper boundaries, where encouraging words are spoken and not ridicule? I mention ridicule because I grew up with a lot of ridicule even though it was disguised as humor. So trust, kindness, respect, acceftion...perhaps all of them come to play in cultivating love....just thinking on my keyboard here....havent thought about these things in some time now...
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Rocky
Other than my brain/mind immediately going to "we can only love others as much as we live ourselves," to "as much as we love ourselves..." which happens because I apparently heard and repeated the "love ourselves" enough times when quoted/expounded from Matthew 22:38 to have it indelibly imprinted in my mind... I am disinclined to parse any of the words in that quote. I take it as an organic whole. As such I think it's brilliant and a wonderful basis for living life.
In that sense, I see it as aspirational, rather than cause for judging either myself or others (i.e. Mike). Nevertheless, it doesn't preclude measuring people like Mike and his words/actions, against what I've learned over the course of three decades since I started exploring psychosocial matters with a view to understanding myself... and hence others too.
IOW, I can accept Mike as a "seeker who decided" and separate that from his advocacy for all things Wierwille.
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chockfull
This resonates with me. I can understand an interpretation of Matt 22:39 in the sense of that expressing a healthy, balanced, and beneficial love that starts with a love of self and can be expressed freely as loving others.
An unhealthy, imbalanced, or maladaptive love does not have a healthy balance of self love and love of others. Addictions fall under this kind of love. Or permutations of abuse.
Viewing love as an action verb helps IMO. The more love is fueled by action and good will the more it catalyzes great things in the world.
The more love is relegated to an emotion, a feeling, or a passing state the more it is robbed of power and effect.
To me it also makes sense to talk about love in the essence of a combination of logic and emotion, head and heart, and involving one’s entire being.
I guess that is my opinionated answer on what works and what doesn’t work.
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Rocky
Speaking of LOVE... this seems to illustrated it well.
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Charity
Oh, the shivering he does is so sad. But that's how trauma affects our minds and bodies as well. And you're right about the power of love - it took his fears away and brought healing to his cute, cuddly little body.
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chockfull
Sweet pup!
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waysider
Love is what makes Subaru a Subaru.
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Charity
I like the words cultivate and grow because babies are not born with self-esteem issues - those are developed along the way. The environment you describe above gives a true sense of safety and contentment - where people can stand tall and breathe in confidence and happiness. It's so life-affirming. The author goes on to talk about how today's culture is particularly shame based which brings to mind the image of wilting flowers. By shame-based, she means the use of shame, personal attacks and teardowns in order to be heard which basically is what some reality shows are built on and then called entertainment. In fact, this can be seen here on GSC from the posts of a certain member. Now that's interesting. Was the unloving nature of this habit cultivated only while in twi or even earlier in life? I would think though that everyone everywhere has to be on watch against doing this either habitually or if only now and again.
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Charity
Thank you for catching that typo - it made me laugh. Speaking of the quote being an organic whole, I often think of the first and second great commandments as being independent thoughts instead of being interrelated by the word love as it is talked about throughout 1 John.
I've also spent much of my adult life with the goal of understanding myself and others even to the point of studying the brain and how it figures into all of it. Learning how the past influences our thoughts, feelings and behaviors of the present is fascinating to me. My experience though has shown me that understanding myself isn't enough to move me forward very far nor does it prevent slipping backwards from happening. That's why my goal now is to stay focused on the healing power of love, especially the love of God, instead of visiting the topic now and then. I just need to get clear on what "staying focused" involves
.
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Charity
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Rocky
LOL... seeing the word live there was a simple case of cognitive dissonance.
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Rocky
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Charity
Thanks very much, Rocky. It's touching how the pup fiercely resisted an unperceived gesture of kindness and love because of fear and pain, yet the woman persisted in such a gentle way. Also, to see how Snappy learned to accept love and give love while letting go of both the fear and pain. It makes me think how isolating oneself from others out of emotional fear and pain brings no enlightenment or healing. As well is how reaching out to someone who is hurting but wants to be left alone, is loving not only in words, but in deeds. When you see the power of human love, how much more powerful is Godly love once one learns to trust it. The way ministry helped both to damage, and in some cases, ruin that trust for many.
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Raf
We're going to eventually move this thread to doctrinal, but keeping it here for the time being for exposure and easy access.
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Charity
Thinking this could have been a very real possibility made me chuckle at first, but cognitive dissonance does come into play in the arena of our minds when thoughts of love meet up with thoughts of being unlovable or unworthy of love. Snappy was blessed when someone reached out to him/her with kindness and love. What prevents us from reaching out to ourselves in that way. Experiencing a lot of shame as children comes to mind as shame results in "I'm" statements - I'm bad; I'm useless, etc. - it's a focus placed on self and keeps us away from wanting to be with others. Shame is not only very different from guilt, but it prevents us from having guilt. Guilt focuses on our behaviour (I was rude to my friend) which makes it possible to choose to make amends. I'm beginning to understand now that when I have trouble accepting the fact that I've made a mistake, I'm probably feeling shame instead of guilt. How much was shame used to keep believers down and subservient to leaders in twi. Shame is not of God.
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Charity
I appreciate that Raf. As much as learning to accept and give love is cultivated or hindered in childhood, being in twi made things so much harder to know what love is. Example, the rod (spoon) of correction used for years on toddlers and children. In their recent magazine, no mention of this old barbaric tactic is mentioned because they were told during the lawsuit against them that it had to stop. But what about the emotional and physical fear and pain children lived with and most likely carried with them for years later, as well as the guilt parents felt later on by following twi's doctrine of how to love our children?
Question: Was the prominent habit of using the spoon taught because of vp's belief and practice of how to train his dogs? There are so many examples of twi teaching us how not to love ourselves or others and having to unlearn it all doesn't come overnight - it takes for some people decades to work through it.
However, you're the moderator and I respect your decision.
(hot chocolate with whipped cream for me 
) I'll PM you.
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modcat5
A moderator, not THE moderator. :)
If we want to talk about how TWI distorted the definition of love for its selfish ends, the thread belongs here.
If we want to talk about what love really is and should be, the thread belongs in doctrinal. My initial impression was the latter. If I was mistaken I will reconsider, but either way, the thread stays put for now because the subject matter certainly overlaps.
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