Do you mean at some point there WAS some hype and commitment to the underlying Word of God, the overall body of Christ, or anything [at all] related to building virtue? Has The Way Corporation ever given any commitment to living godly lives, or concern for the overall body of Christ? I suppose the answers are or would be subjective.
Do you mean at some point there WAS some hype and commitment to the underlying Word of God, the overall body of Christ, or anything [at all] related to building virtue? Has The Way Corporation ever given any commitment to living godly lives, or concern for the overall body of Christ? I suppose the answers are or would be subjective.
To this question, chockfull said "No."
In my view, the answer can be "Yes and No." Just saying "no" is a sweeping generalization, which I think disregards the individual journeys that many of us were on in our quest to know, love, and serve God. Yes, certainly VPW made himself the authority on the bible and the center of the organization, and yes, the Way Tree organization grew into a heirarchy of mostly men giving commands and expecting obedience, but there are other things to remember, at least about some of us who were searching for a way to fulfill our part in the body of Christ and for "truth." This was real for me and for a lot of other people throughout the years.
From my experience in 1970 when I was recruited to The Way at the East Carolina Univ. fellowship, it sure looked to me as if there was "some hype and commitment to the underlying Word of God ..." as Rocky put it. Not sure what the "underlying Word of God" means, but for me, I got hooked on the bible teachings presented as "the accurate Word of God" and the chance to make a commitment to a life pleasing to God, living according to teachings aimed at "building virtue," (again, something Rocky wrote) for instance axioms found in the Book of Ecclesiastes, and in Proverbs, and in the N.T.
In my memoir, Undertow, I try to show I was one of those people who joined not for the chance to have power over other people, but as I put it at the end of the first chapter, "Hiding in Plain Sight":
"On the drive home, nudging my car through the snowstorm, I leapt
from one memory to another, ashamed that I allowed myself to get
sucked into The Way, and that Wierwille used me to spread his propaganda.
Dr. Schaffer, an unexpected humanitarian, held me steady for
the moment, but I feared for my mental health, even my physical
well-being. I’d discovered The Way’s underbelly, bloody-black and swollen
with greed, and nothing could make me stay. In the beginning, I
only wanted to know, love, and serve God and understand the Bible.
What harm could that possibly bring?"
Sorry there were three questions. I was summarizing my feeling about them never being interested in godly lives or positively impacting the overall body of Christ.
Rocky seemed to be picking at a portion of my earlier more lengthy post and trying to make it say something I did not intend. So I didn’t feel the need to expand upon the answer.
Now I’m making “sweeping generalizations” apparently.
In my view, the answer can be "Yes and No." Just saying "no" is a sweeping generalization, which I think disregards the individual journeys that many of us were on in our quest to know, love, and serve God. Yes, certainly VPW made himself the authority on the bible and the center of the organization, and yes, the Way Tree organization grew into a heirarchy of mostly men giving commands and expecting obedience, but there are other things to remember, at least about some of us who were searching for a way to fulfill our part in the body of Christ and for "truth." This was real for me and for a lot of other people throughout the years.
From my experience in 1970 when I was recruited to The Way at the East Carolina Univ. fellowship, it sure looked to me as if there was "some hype and commitment to the underlying Word of God ..." as Rocky put it. Not sure what the "underlying Word of God" means, but for me, I got hooked on the bible teachings presented as "the accurate Word of God" and the chance to make a commitment to a life pleasing to God, living according to teachings aimed at "building virtue," (again, something Rocky wrote) for instance axioms found in the Book of Ecclesiastes, and in Proverbs, and in the N.T.
In my memoir, Undertow, I try to show I was one of those people who joined not for the chance to have power over other people, but as I put it at the end of the first chapter, "Hiding in Plain Sight":
"On the drive home, nudging my car through the snowstorm, I leapt
from one memory to another, ashamed that I allowed myself to get
sucked into The Way, and that Wierwille used me to spread his propaganda.
Dr. Schaffer, an unexpected humanitarian, held me steady for
the moment, but I feared for my mental health, even my physical
well-being. I’d discovered The Way’s underbelly, bloody-black and swollen
with greed, and nothing could make me stay. In the beginning, I
only wanted to know, love, and serve God and understand the Bible.
What harm could that possibly bring?"
So to clarify because it sounds like this is saying I was one of those who joined “for the chance to have power over other people” as you are sharing your story as a rebuff to my “No” comment, I joined TWI in college because I was seeking God and the truth of the Word. The laymen in TWI seemed to be masters of this “speaking in tongues” concept whereas the pastor at my denomination said he didn’t see the Bible saying much at all about it.
Yes there were aspects also “Hiding in Plain Sight”. I have not nor will not publish a memo of my experiences in TWI.
I am glad you did. I enjoyed reading the book you wrote whose chapters you attached here.
We all have our path in the body of Christ. Because mine is not yours don’t kick dirt on the path I chose.
From my experience in 1970 when I was recruited to The Way at the East Carolina Univ. fellowship, it sure looked to me as if there was "some hype and commitment to the underlying Word of God ..." as Rocky put it. Not sure what the "underlying Word of God" means, but for me, I got hooked on the bible teachings presented as "the accurate Word of God" and the chance to make a commitment to a life pleasing to God, living according to teachings aimed at "building virtue," (again, something Rocky wrote) for instance axioms found in the Book of Ecclesiastes, and in Proverbs, and in the N.T.
In my memoir,Undertow, I try to show I was one of those people who joined not for the chance to have power over other people, but as I put it at the end of the first chapter, "Hiding in Plain Sight":
"On the drive home, nudging my car through the snowstorm, I leapt from one memory to another, ashamed that I allowed myself to get sucked into The Way, and that Wierwille used me to spread his propaganda. Dr. Schaffer, an unexpected humanitarian, held me steady for the moment, but I feared for my mental health, even my physical well-being. I’d discovered The Way’s underbelly, bloody-black and swollen with greed, and nothing could make me stay. In the beginning, I only wanted to know, love, and serve Godand understand the Bible. What harm could that possibly bring?"
My desire to know, love, and serve God began with my first fellowship because of the love and acceptance shown to an 18 year old who believed she was totally unworthy of love and because of the teaching at that fellowship on the righteousness of God given to us through Christ which to a girl swallowed up in guilt was an incredible relief. Both of these experiences were genuine - but also genuine was what you described as the "bloody-black and swollen with greed" underbelly of twi that laid hidden right from the beginning of my involvement.
The problem usually starts with accepting the declaration that the head honcho of a ministry or church alone teaches the truth. I see that now as the "alarm" to get out right away, but I didn't know that when I met up with twi. Parallel to this lie from the top dude is the systemic practice of not having the right to ask questions and disagree and still be loved and accepted. Until people, especially young people, know to look out for these going in, they won't realize the damage being done to them spiritually, mentally, financially, etc. until it's too late. That's why The Way International and so many other groups like it are dangerous today and for those whose desire to know, love and serve God leads them into higher leadership responsibilities, the more damage they experience.
I agree that the answer can be "yes and no" to Rocky's question, but I also agree when someone's answer is a definite "no" because of having been lied to and spiritual abused.
Rocky seemed to be picking at a portion of my earlier more lengthy post and trying to make it say something I did not intend. So I didn’t feel the need to expand upon the answer.
Really? You seemingly admit you didn't understand my response to you, but then indicate a particular judgment about my intention? I posed questions. That's what one reasonably does when seeking clarification(s). Isn't that what discussion forums are inherently about?
In my view, the answer can be "Yes and No." Just saying "no" is a sweeping generalization, which I think disregards the individual journeys that many of us were on in our quest to know, love, and serve God. Yes, certainly VPW made himself the authority on the bible and the center of the organization, and yes, the Way Tree organization grew into a hierarchy of mostly men giving commands and expecting obedience, but there are other things to remember, at least about some of us who were searching for a way to fulfill our part in the body of Christ and for "truth." This was real for me and for a lot of other people throughout the years.
From my experience in 1970 when I was recruited to The Way at the East Carolina Univ. fellowship, it sure looked to me as if there was "some hype and commitment to the underlying Word of God ..." as Rocky put it. Not sure what the "underlying Word of God" means, but for me, I got hooked on the bible teachings presented as "the accurate Word of God" and the chance to make a commitment to a life pleasing to God, living according to teachings aimed at "building virtue," (again, something Rocky wrote) for instance axioms found in the Book of Ecclesiastes, and in Proverbs, and in the N.T.
Exquisitely elegant reply.
I think you've hit on something(s) Penworks that goes to the power of cults.
1) Hierarchy. Frans de Waal mentions the word repeatedly in Mama's Last Hug.
Human hierarchies can be quite apparent, but we don’t always recognize them as such, and academics often act as if they don’t exist. I have sat through entire conferences on adolescent human behavior without ever hearing the words power and sex, even though to me they are what teen life is all about.
De Waal, Frans . Mama's Last Hug: Animal Emotions and What They Tell Us about Ourselves (p. 31). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
2) As I used the expression, "commitment to the underlying Word of God" would be whether those who articulated expressions like "the Word of God is the Will of God" walked the walk instead of just talking the talk. Perhaps it's an artifact of the exponential growth of psychological and spiritual research, knowledge and understanding in the 50+ years since the rapid growth of Victor Wierwille's organization that we can identify inconsistencies so readily in our experience of the subculture itself.
3) Many of us who were drawn into The Way were primed for it by "virtue" of our childhood religious education and culture. IIRC, Penworks, you were raised in the Catholic Church. As was I, at least for me my first 13 years. It was interrupted for me when I moved with my mother and siblings to Arizona. After a less than robust couple of years religiously, at the end of high school, typical spiritual longings and curiosity began again to arise. After one semester of college, I dropped out and signed a delayed enlistment contract with the USAF. During the six month interim, a close HS friend invited me to his (Pentecostal/charismatic) church.
During tech school in Mississippi, I connected with a charismatic fellowship off base. So, when I went overseas at age 19, it was natural for me to gravitate to a fellowship at the base chapel.
Anyway, the two things that hooked me was, as you noted for yourself, longing for God; and the obvious need to build a social network on the small military base in a foreign land.
The Way tapped ALL the right keys.
It wasn't for a few years afterward that I engaged with what I now know to have been a highly corrupt (or at least dysfunctional) hierarchy.
Really? You seemingly admit you didn't understand my response to you, but then indicate a particular judgment about my intention? I posed questions. That's what one reasonably does when seeking clarification(s). Isn't that what discussion forums are inherently about?
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. iykyk
Well... anyway, I had simply posed questions. I had not at all indicated a particular judgment about your intention. Sorry if my first reply was a bit harsh.
The problem usually starts with accepting the declaration that the head honcho of a ministry or church alone teaches the truth. I see that now as the "alarm" to get out right away, but I didn't know that when I met up with twi. Parallel to this lie from the top dude is the systemic practice of not having the right to ask questions and disagree and still be loved and accepted. Until people, especially young people, know to look out for these going in, they won't realize the damage being done to them spiritually, mentally, financially, etc. until it's too late. That's why The Way International and so many other groups like it are dangerous today and for those whose desire to know, love and serve God leads them into higher leadership responsibilities, the more damage they experience.
Also exquisitely elegant and eloquent. And dead on salient.
I think we all got into TWI by some form of altruistic bait like fish bait hiding the hook. We found out about the evil later.
What in Gods creation does any of that have to do with the Ways Ambassador program?
I guess as a rhetorical question indirectly there were a lot of WOW ambassador alumni around helping to fish with altruistic bait…
So true!
When I first got into the way, the Word over the World (WOW) ambassador program was marketed as the next best thing to do for spiritual growth once you’ve taken the pfal and intermediate classes which is why I signed up to go as soon as I met that requirement.
Reading about twi’s current “Ambassadors of the Way Outreach Program” tm on their website, twice it shows that the end goal of this program is to make fellowships available in the local communities where ambassadors are sent. However, that was never true when I went WOW, nor is it true today.
The ultimate aim of this outreach program is to run their foundational class (which today is called “Power for Abundant Living Today”) because this is where the indoctrination that twi alone teaches Biblical truth begins to really take place.
The fact that twi says one thing on their website about this program while something different is practiced in real life is striking to me. Why the need to deceive? Because talking about “holding forth ‘God’s Word’ as a way ambassador sounds so much more Christian like than “promoting an organization’s class” which in itself is self-serving.
The article Belle posted at the start of this thread includes this interesting detail. “June also saw another group of people visit The Way International. For two weeks, 246 students from the United States and 11 other countries participated in the annual Biblical Studies seminar, the Advanced Class. This is the third of four Advanced Classes The Way International is running in 2023.”
Step one for being able to take the “Advanced” Class is taking the foundational class. That's why The Way International is so dangerous – the more classes you take and the more leadership responsibility you have like while in the Ambassador program, the more their harmful indoctrination takes hold of you and your life.
Really? You seemingly admit you didn't understand my response to you, but then indicate a particular judgment about my intention? I posed questions. That's what one reasonably does when seeking clarification(s). Isn't that what discussion forums are inherently about?
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. iykyk
And other times a cigar is the method for lighting a fuse …
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chockfull
No.
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Rocky
That's what I figured.
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penworks
To this question, chockfull said "No."
In my view, the answer can be "Yes and No." Just saying "no" is a sweeping generalization, which I think disregards the individual journeys that many of us were on in our quest to know, love, and serve God. Yes, certainly VPW made himself the authority on the bible and the center of the organization, and yes, the Way Tree organization grew into a heirarchy of mostly men giving commands and expecting obedience, but there are other things to remember, at least about some of us who were searching for a way to fulfill our part in the body of Christ and for "truth." This was real for me and for a lot of other people throughout the years.
From my experience in 1970 when I was recruited to The Way at the East Carolina Univ. fellowship, it sure looked to me as if there was "some hype and commitment to the underlying Word of God ..." as Rocky put it. Not sure what the "underlying Word of God" means, but for me, I got hooked on the bible teachings presented as "the accurate Word of God" and the chance to make a commitment to a life pleasing to God, living according to teachings aimed at "building virtue," (again, something Rocky wrote) for instance axioms found in the Book of Ecclesiastes, and in Proverbs, and in the N.T.
In my memoir, Undertow, I try to show I was one of those people who joined not for the chance to have power over other people, but as I put it at the end of the first chapter, "Hiding in Plain Sight":
"On the drive home, nudging my car through the snowstorm, I leapt
from one memory to another, ashamed that I allowed myself to get
sucked into The Way, and that Wierwille used me to spread his propaganda.
Dr. Schaffer, an unexpected humanitarian, held me steady for
the moment, but I feared for my mental health, even my physical
well-being. I’d discovered The Way’s underbelly, bloody-black and swollen
with greed, and nothing could make me stay. In the beginning, I
only wanted to know, love, and serve God and understand the Bible.
What harm could that possibly bring?"
Hiding-in-Plain-Sight.pdf
Hiding-in-Plain-Sight.pdf
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chockfull
Sorry there were three questions. I was summarizing my feeling about them never being interested in godly lives or positively impacting the overall body of Christ.
Rocky seemed to be picking at a portion of my earlier more lengthy post and trying to make it say something I did not intend. So I didn’t feel the need to expand upon the answer.
Now I’m making “sweeping generalizations” apparently.
okaaaaay.
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chockfull
So to clarify because it sounds like this is saying I was one of those who joined “for the chance to have power over other people” as you are sharing your story as a rebuff to my “No” comment, I joined TWI in college because I was seeking God and the truth of the Word. The laymen in TWI seemed to be masters of this “speaking in tongues” concept whereas the pastor at my denomination said he didn’t see the Bible saying much at all about it.
Yes there were aspects also “Hiding in Plain Sight”. I have not nor will not publish a memo of my experiences in TWI.
I am glad you did. I enjoyed reading the book you wrote whose chapters you attached here.
We all have our path in the body of Christ. Because mine is not yours don’t kick dirt on the path I chose.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
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Charity
My desire to know, love, and serve God began with my first fellowship because of the love and acceptance shown to an 18 year old who believed she was totally unworthy of love and because of the teaching at that fellowship on the righteousness of God given to us through Christ which to a girl swallowed up in guilt was an incredible relief. Both of these experiences were genuine - but also genuine was what you described as the "bloody-black and swollen with greed" underbelly of twi that laid hidden right from the beginning of my involvement.
The problem usually starts with accepting the declaration that the head honcho of a ministry or church alone teaches the truth. I see that now as the "alarm" to get out right away, but I didn't know that when I met up with twi. Parallel to this lie from the top dude is the systemic practice of not having the right to ask questions and disagree and still be loved and accepted. Until people, especially young people, know to look out for these going in, they won't realize the damage being done to them spiritually, mentally, financially, etc. until it's too late. That's why The Way International and so many other groups like it are dangerous today and for those whose desire to know, love and serve God leads them into higher leadership responsibilities, the more damage they experience.
I agree that the answer can be "yes and no" to Rocky's question, but I also agree when someone's answer is a definite "no" because of having been lied to and spiritual abused.
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chockfull
I think we all got into TWI by some form of altruistic bait like fish bait hiding the hook. We found out about the evil later.
What in Gods creation does any of that have to do with the Ways Ambassador program?
I guess as a rhetorical question indirectly there were a lot of WOW ambassador alumni around helping to fish with altruistic bait…
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Rocky
Really? You seemingly admit you didn't understand my response to you, but then indicate a particular judgment about my intention? I posed questions. That's what one reasonably does when seeking clarification(s). Isn't that what discussion forums are inherently about?
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. iykyk
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Rocky
Exquisitely elegant reply.
I think you've hit on something(s) Penworks that goes to the power of cults.
1) Hierarchy. Frans de Waal mentions the word repeatedly in Mama's Last Hug.
Human hierarchies can be quite apparent, but we don’t always recognize them as such, and academics often act as if they don’t exist. I have sat through entire conferences on adolescent human behavior without ever hearing the words power and sex, even though to me they are what teen life is all about.
De Waal, Frans . Mama's Last Hug: Animal Emotions and What They Tell Us about Ourselves (p. 31). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
2) As I used the expression, "commitment to the underlying Word of God" would be whether those who articulated expressions like "the Word of God is the Will of God" walked the walk instead of just talking the talk. Perhaps it's an artifact of the exponential growth of psychological and spiritual research, knowledge and understanding in the 50+ years since the rapid growth of Victor Wierwille's organization that we can identify inconsistencies so readily in our experience of the subculture itself.
3) Many of us who were drawn into The Way were primed for it by "virtue" of our childhood religious education and culture. IIRC, Penworks, you were raised in the Catholic Church. As was I, at least for me my first 13 years. It was interrupted for me when I moved with my mother and siblings to Arizona. After a less than robust couple of years religiously, at the end of high school, typical spiritual longings and curiosity began again to arise. After one semester of college, I dropped out and signed a delayed enlistment contract with the USAF. During the six month interim, a close HS friend invited me to his (Pentecostal/charismatic) church.
During tech school in Mississippi, I connected with a charismatic fellowship off base. So, when I went overseas at age 19, it was natural for me to gravitate to a fellowship at the base chapel.
Anyway, the two things that hooked me was, as you noted for yourself, longing for God; and the obvious need to build a social network on the small military base in a foreign land.
The Way tapped ALL the right keys.
It wasn't for a few years afterward that I engaged with what I now know to have been a highly corrupt (or at least dysfunctional) hierarchy.
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Rocky
Well... anyway, I had simply posed questions. I had not at all indicated a particular judgment about your intention. Sorry if my first reply was a bit harsh.
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Rocky
Also exquisitely elegant and eloquent. And dead on salient.
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Charity
So true!
When I first got into the way, the Word over the World (WOW) ambassador program was marketed as the next best thing to do for spiritual growth once you’ve taken the pfal and intermediate classes which is why I signed up to go as soon as I met that requirement.
Reading about twi’s current “Ambassadors of the Way Outreach Program” tm on their website, twice it shows that the end goal of this program is to make fellowships available in the local communities where ambassadors are sent. However, that was never true when I went WOW, nor is it true today.
The ultimate aim of this outreach program is to run their foundational class (which today is called “Power for Abundant Living Today”) because this is where the indoctrination that twi alone teaches Biblical truth begins to really take place.
The fact that twi says one thing on their website about this program while something different is practiced in real life is striking to me. Why the need to deceive? Because talking about “holding forth ‘God’s Word’ as a way ambassador sounds so much more Christian like than “promoting an organization’s class” which in itself is self-serving.
The article Belle posted at the start of this thread includes this interesting detail. “June also saw another group of people visit The Way International. For two weeks, 246 students from the United States and 11 other countries participated in the annual Biblical Studies seminar, the Advanced Class. This is the third of four Advanced Classes The Way International is running in 2023.”
Step one for being able to take the “Advanced” Class is taking the foundational class. That's why The Way International is so dangerous – the more classes you take and the more leadership responsibility you have like while in the Ambassador program, the more their harmful indoctrination takes hold of you and your life.
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chockfull
And other times a cigar is the method for lighting a fuse …
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chockfull
I don’t have to post here. I can leave it for all those writing memoirs…
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Rocky
Good one!
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