I responded on the other thread but it seems to me that Mikes complete dedication to PFAL and the collaterals needs constant attention or it fades away.
Whereas reading my Bible without that nonsense seems to provide inspiration in many varied and sometimes random ways to me. And that doesn’t fade away is it is an integral part of Christianity.
I've seen this evolution from time to time, both in myself over the past 5 decades, and here in some posters in the past 2 decades. I fight it off the best I can, but find myself fighting it off over and over.
Mike said this in response to a recent thread I started:
I'm sure we've had thread concerning this, but if anyone wants to debate this with Mike, here it is.
No debate really, only mentioning the vibrant scriptures that come from the church's true gift ministries. When they're in operation. They are still around today.
Hereis one example of this evolving road down here at GSC: the recent belief that the Bible does not interpret itself that has grown up here in some in fairly recent years.
This is a very equivalent to the belief that the Bible is of un-coordinated origins, and lacking authority in lives today. It's not the work of an accurate God, nor an authoritative God who is powerfully in charge. It follows that the Bible is not the revealed Word and will of God in this thinking path.
My reply:
Yes, it's out of context, but I want it noted that I finally agree with Mike on something.
The funny thing to me is, the REASON you keep having to fight off this pattern of thinking is really simple:
The evidence leads to this conclusion.
And if you're really following the evidence, you will keep ending up on the same road.
"The Bible does not interpret itself" is not a presupposition. It is the conclusion you reach after realizing your presupposition is mistaken.
So is time. What this anthropologist has to say is one of the ideas that has led me to beleeeve VPW was, even during his lifetime (but much more so in the three plus decades since his corporeal demise) an anachronistic blowhard.
"Forget not all His benefits" is a command we should learn from and implement in our lives systematically. If we don't obey it, then all the memory of His benefits will erode.
Circumstances and false evidence, discouraging evidence pile up all the time, and at the same time the memory of all the benefits of God erodes unless refreshed. All the original reasons to believe can be slowly forgotten if the natural memory degradation is not fought.
If the ONLY two positions POSSIBLE are- the Bible can only be understood exactly as stated in twi
or
the Bible is completely unreliable and useless
and no other positions are even possible,
then it's no wonder ex-twi people often jump to the second position after leaving twi. If they think those are the only 2 possibilities, and they saw the first one failed, then they'd think the answer could only be the second one.
I was raised Roman Catholic. I came to the conclusion that Roman Catholicism lacked the answers I needed. (I still think that based on the answers I needed then.) Having been brought up to think the Roman Catholic Church was the be-all and end-all of Christianity, I concluded that, if the RCC didn't have my answers, no other Christians would, either.
It's the same sort of thinking that moves some ex-twi to abandon Christianity. If they think ONLY twi had answers, and saw how deficient twi was, then that conclusion is to be expected.
I suspect clinging too dogmatically to ANY denomination, group, etc would produce the same result eventually, but groups like twi set one up for an epic head-on crash with reality.
"Forget not all His benefits" is a command we should learn from and implement in our lives systematically. If we don't obey it, then all the memory of His benefits will erode.
Circumstances and false evidence, discouraging evidence pile up all the time, and at the same time the memory of all the benefits of God erodes unless refreshed. All the original reasons to believe can be slowly forgotten if the natural memory degradation is not fought.
"Kindly let me help you or you'll drown," said the monkey, putting the fish safely up a tree.
"Forget not all His benefits" is a command we should learn from and implement in our lives systematically. If we don't obey it, then all the memory of His benefits will erode.
hm psalms
103 Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
"Forget not all His benefits" is a command we should learn from and implement in our lives systematically. If we don't obey it, then all the memory of His benefits will erode.
Circumstances and false evidence, discouraging evidence pile up all the time, and at the same time the memory of all the benefits of God erodes unless refreshed. All the original reasons to believe can be slowly forgotten if the natural memory degradation is not fought.
I think it's even simpler than that... I think it's natural knowledge vs. spiritual knowledge. Carnal vs. spiritual. And there's reason in both of them.
If the ONLY two positions POSSIBLE are- the Bible can only be understood exactly as stated in twi
or
the Bible is completely unreliable and useless
and no other positions are even possible,
then it's no wonder ex-twi people often jump to the second position after leaving twi. If they think those are the only 2 possibilities, and they saw the first one failed, then they'd think the answer could only be the second one.
I was raised Roman Catholic. I came to the conclusion that Roman Catholicism lacked the answers I needed. (I still think that based on the answers I needed then.) Having been brought up to think the Roman Catholic Church was the be-all and end-all of Christianity, I concluded that, if the RCC didn't have my answers, no other Christians would, either.
It's the same sort of thinking that moves some ex-twi to abandon Christianity. If they think ONLY twi had answers, and saw how deficient twi was, then that conclusion is to be expected.
I suspect clinging too dogmatically to ANY denomination, group, etc would produce the same result eventually, but groups like twi set one up for an epic head-on crash with reality.
Agree... putting "God in a Box" is what I refer to it today. But it's not exclusive to TWI, or RC; I think it's what many churches do but the reality is God is everywhere present and can be found elsewhere than one's box if one allows themself to look for it.
In PFAL, VPW proclaims the Bible to be the revealed word and will of God. To emphasize the importance of this, he stresses that the world is unaware of this fact. (the greatest secret) He then goes on to say that the Bible, as we know it, is not accurate. So, which is it? Is it the revealed word and will of God or is it a book that's inaccurate? This is all (if I remember correctly) in the very first session of the class. Oh, but wait, "I know how to interpret it to make it accurate." "But, don't you interpret it yourself because it can't be interpreted." I wonder what life would have been like if I had just given some serious thought to the obvious contradictions in what he was saying.
In PFAL, VPW proclaims the Bible to be the revealed word and will of God. To emphasize the importance of this, he stresses that the world is unaware of this fact. (the greatest secret) He then goes on to say that the Bible, as we know it, is not accurate. So, which is it? Is it the revealed word and will of God or is it a book that's inaccurate? This is all (if I remember correctly) in the very first session of the class. Oh, but wait, "I know how to interpret it to make it accurate." "But, don't you interpret it yourself because it can't be interpreted." I wonder what life would have been like if I had just given some serious thought to the obvious contradictions in what he was saying.
I feel exactly the same. In fact if memory serves didn't he say that "we (TWI) does the same thing as everyone else." i.e. interpret it as well. So that means its ok to have a private interpretation?
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chockfull
I responded on the other thread but it seems to me that Mikes complete dedication to PFAL and the collaterals needs constant attention or it fades away.
Whereas reading my Bible without that nonsense seems to provide inspiration in many varied and sometimes random ways to me. And that doesn’t fade away is it is an integral part of Christianity.
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Twinky
Could you copy your response here, please? If you can, delete response from the other thread.
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cman
What are you fighting?
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oldiesman
No debate really, only mentioning the vibrant scriptures that come from the church's true gift ministries. When they're in operation. They are still around today.
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Twinky
Not "what am I [Twinky] fighting?" but "what is Mike fighting?" as it's a quote from something he wrote.
Right on there, Oldiesman. And not confined to any particular church or denomination, either.
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Raf
Mike wrote:
Here is one example of this evolving road down here at GSC: the recent belief that the Bible does not interpret itself that has grown up here in some in fairly recent years.
This is a very equivalent to the belief that the Bible is of un-coordinated origins, and lacking authority in lives today. It's not the work of an accurate God, nor an authoritative God who is powerfully in charge. It follows that the Bible is not the revealed Word and will of God in this thinking path.
My reply:
Yes, it's out of context, but I want it noted that I finally agree with Mike on something.
The funny thing to me is, the REASON you keep having to fight off this pattern of thinking is really simple:
The evidence leads to this conclusion.
And if you're really following the evidence, you will keep ending up on the same road.
"The Bible does not interpret itself" is not a presupposition. It is the conclusion you reach after realizing your presupposition is mistaken.
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Rocky
And I conclude not only was VPW an opportunist cult initiator, but it's also increasingly apparent he was an anachronistic blowhard.
Frankly, I've also observed Mike having genuine intellectual curiosity on subject(s) other than vpw, twi, and pflap.
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Nathan_Jr
Evidence is sand in the machinery of beleeef.
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Rocky
So is time. What this anthropologist has to say is one of the ideas that has led me to beleeeve VPW was, even during his lifetime (but much more so in the three plus decades since his corporeal demise) an anachronistic blowhard.
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cman
Yes I know
So what are you in a fight for Mike?
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cman
mike: I fight it off the best I can, but find myself fighting it off over and over.
what is "it"
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Raf
Reason.
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Nathan_Jr
Reason is the sugar in the gas tank of beleeef.
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Rocky
YIKES!
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Mike
Memory degradation is what I fight.
"Forget not all His benefits" is a command we should learn from and implement in our lives systematically. If we don't obey it, then all the memory of His benefits will erode.
Circumstances and false evidence, discouraging evidence pile up all the time, and at the same time the memory of all the benefits of God erodes unless refreshed. All the original reasons to believe can be slowly forgotten if the natural memory degradation is not fought.
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WordWolf
False dilemma.
If the ONLY two positions POSSIBLE are- the Bible can only be understood exactly as stated in twi
or
the Bible is completely unreliable and useless
and no other positions are even possible,
then it's no wonder ex-twi people often jump to the second position after leaving twi. If they think those are the only 2 possibilities, and they saw the first one failed, then they'd think the answer could only be the second one.
I was raised Roman Catholic. I came to the conclusion that Roman Catholicism lacked the answers I needed. (I still think that based on the answers I needed then.) Having been brought up to think the Roman Catholic Church was the be-all and end-all of Christianity, I concluded that, if the RCC didn't have my answers, no other Christians would, either.
It's the same sort of thinking that moves some ex-twi to abandon Christianity. If they think ONLY twi had answers, and saw how deficient twi was, then that conclusion is to be expected.
I suspect clinging too dogmatically to ANY denomination, group, etc would produce the same result eventually, but groups like twi set one up for an epic head-on crash with reality.
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Nathan_Jr
"Kindly let me help you or you'll drown," said the monkey, putting the fish safely up a tree.
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cman
hm psalms
103 Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
You won't get that from your books.
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cman
that's not true
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oldiesman
I think it's even simpler than that... I think it's natural knowledge vs. spiritual knowledge. Carnal vs. spiritual. And there's reason in both of them.
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oldiesman
Agree... putting "God in a Box" is what I refer to it today. But it's not exclusive to TWI, or RC; I think it's what many churches do but the reality is God is everywhere present and can be found elsewhere than one's box if one allows themself to look for it.
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waysider
In PFAL, VPW proclaims the Bible to be the revealed word and will of God. To emphasize the importance of this, he stresses that the world is unaware of this fact. (the greatest secret) He then goes on to say that the Bible, as we know it, is not accurate. So, which is it? Is it the revealed word and will of God or is it a book that's inaccurate? This is all (if I remember correctly) in the very first session of the class. Oh, but wait, "I know how to interpret it to make it accurate." "But, don't you interpret it yourself because it can't be interpreted." I wonder what life would have been like if I had just given some serious thought to the obvious contradictions in what he was saying.
Edited by waysidermissed a word/spelling
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oldiesman
I feel exactly the same. In fact if memory serves didn't he say that "we (TWI) does the same thing as everyone else." i.e. interpret it as well. So that means its ok to have a private interpretation?
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waysider
Only if it's in agreement with Way doctrine.
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