Words and language, in general, change over time, as I'm sure we're all aware. Years ago, gender was used as a noun and sex was used to imply a verbal action. (for the most part.) It wasn't judgmental, just a statement of fact. For example, if a baby was born anatomically male, it was said that its GENDER was male. If it was born anatomically female, its GENDER was female. SEX was a physical act that sometimes had the potential of producing a baby. Of course, I realize this is an over simplification, as there is also the possibility of same sex relations, but it still implies an action. And, there are babies that are born with a combination of male and female reproductive structures. We once called them HERMAPHRODITES. That term is obsolete and has been replaced with INTERSEX. Sometimes the structural differences are externally visible. Sometimes they are internal and, thus, not visibly obvious. At times, it's difficult to make a proper identification either way at birth. Doctors would sometimes surgically alter such children to appear to have only one gender. Frequently, surgeons would elect to render them female because that surgery is less involved. That can have catastrophic results later in life because the surgeon may have misidentified the child's actual gender. Today, with advanced genetic knowledge, we have more sophisticated methods of determining actual gender than we did in times past. And, there are multiple other scenarios possible, as well.
Okay, I've gotten too far off the subject here. The rule I try to follow, when discussing such issues with people, is to listen closely and adapt my terminology to the other person's terminology. If they're really talking about a person's gender but refer to it as sex, I try to do the same. It makes for more productive conversation.
Okay, I've gotten too far off the subject here. The rule I try to follow, when discussing such issues with people, is to listen closely and adapt my terminology to the other person's terminology. If they're really talking about a person's gender but refer to it as sex, I try to do the same. It makes for more productive conversation.
In the most lovingly way possible I guess I disagree. (I'm totally just having a conversation, in case this comes off as more than that.) Adapting one's terminology to another individual's can continue to make things unclear and arguments can go on and on because people don't understand each other since their meanings do not line up. I believe that you have to define terminology first, be on the same page first before a productive conversation can actually begin. Those whose master status and identity are tied up in gender/sexuality identity will judge us based on whether or not we are respecting their language. I say their language because they are the ones proactively using and they are the ones defining it today, and therefore they are the ones who it affects the most. I feel that your response is precisely what they would expect, and then they may falsely judge us and not care what anyone around here has to say.
Again, I know I'm way down the rabbit hole of "no big deal" and "who gives an f." It's just I'm around and aware of the people I'm talking about and I know that what I brought up is both factual and an issue...for them.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the site is/has/will be judged by others based off of the misuse of a label that is voluntarily being put out into the world inaccurately by today's definitions. I am trying to say that those that this label affects will react in a way that may seem reactionary and over-the-top to you and me (not listen to anything else we have to say), but that is the reality of those that are utilizing the language today. If we wish to utilize the same language (i.e. put it on the site), we must adhere to how it is being used today - else we signal to others that we do not care about our ignorance, because we "know" or do not care that we are right. And that just sounds way too much like those we broke away from imho.
I believe that you have to define terminology first, be on the same page first before a productive conversation can actually begin.
I totally agree with this, whether it be science, social issues or antique restoration techniques. But, once that's established, I try not to get too hung up on insisting the "correct" terminology is always used unless it will really make some kind of difference. The new cringe for me is when people talk about "sex reveal" parties. HUH?? I know they're talking about revealing whether the baby is going to be a boy or girl. I go with the flow on that one.
Maybe ask the other person to clarify how they are using the terminology?
What I'm trying to say and my own shortcomings are obviously preventing me from getting my point across is that the conversation is not going to happen, there is not going to be an "other person" if we have labels up that prevent further victims from seeing this space as a safe-haven for healing. Now, whether or not we believe that a simple misunderstanding of a word could/would actually prevent a person from enjoying said content and healing of this site is obviously the line in the sand for my particular argument. But I just wanted to let it be known that from my experiences, the terminology being used here could be counter-productive towards the site's primary objective, for some people.
But I just wanted to let it be known that from my experiences, the terminology being used here could be counter-productive towards the site's primary objective, for some people.
The ongoing discussion at large on the linguistics and biology related to gender and sex became abruptly and immediately relevant to me last night when I learned my first cousin is trans. We are the same age and were close as children. I only ever knew him as he/him. That's how will refer to him until he himself tells me otherwise.
He was born male but now identifies as female. I found out about this at the same time I found out he has been missing for one year. It was also revealed to me that he was involved in the seditious riot in D.C. on January 6, 2021.
No doubt the disparity between his extreme political identification and his gender identification had a role to play in his erratic and mysterious behavior, his divorce, his business loss, and his abandonment of his beloved daughter. I can't imagine the conflict and suffering he experiences within. Surely, one with such radical political ideology wouldn't choose to be trans!
I haven't had an opinion on this issue of gender identity. I still don't really know what to think. Still sorting it out. Generally, I just don't care about a person's sexual orientation or identity. It is simply not what matters to me.
While looking for some excellent Flat Earth debunking videos from Professor Dave (for the other thread), I found this very, very helpful video explaining sex and gender.
The ongoing discussion at large on the linguistics and biology related to gender and sex became abruptly and immediately relevant to me last night when I learned my first cousin is trans. We are the same age and were close as children. I only ever knew him as he/him. That's how will refer to him until he himself tells me otherwise.
He was born male but now identifies as female. I found out about this at the same time I found out he has been missing for one year. It was also revealed to me that he was involved in the seditious riot in D.C. on January 6, 2021.
No doubt the disparity between his extreme political identification and his gender identification had a role to play in his erratic and mysterious behavior, his divorce, his business loss, and his abandonment of his beloved daughter. I can't imagine the conflict and suffering he experiences within. Surely, one with such radical political ideology wouldn't choose to be trans!
I haven't had an opinion on this issue of gender identity. I still don't really know what to think. Still sorting it out. Generally, I just don't care about a person's sexual orientation or identity. It is simply not what matters to me.
While looking for some excellent Flat Earth debunking videos from Professor Dave (for the other thread), I found this very, very helpful video explaining sex and gender.
The only part I have a hard time with is when ONE person wants to be referred to as more than one person. I suppose, just like everything else about this subject, it will be normalized eventually, but it still doesn't make sense to me at this time. Case in point, Ken Jennings accommodatingly but still awkwardly referring to Mattea Roach as THEY sets off cognitive dissonance in my head.
A long time ago, I got to be pretty good friends with this guy at work who knew a lot more about the job than I did because he had learned it from his father. He was always ready to offer help and teach me new skills. I was appreciative. We weren't really friends outside of work, but one day I offered to buy him a beer and a burger after work as a way of thanking him. As we sat there talking, the conversation turned to high school and working on old cars. "Well", he said, "I didn't work on cars because I was too busy learning about makeup and clothes." He saw my startled response and laughed out loud. "Yeah", he said, "When I was born, I was a girl." He showed me a picture of his kid and an old Mother's Day card and we talked about it a little more. He said his family had disowned him. He really opened my eyes to things I'd never thought about before. Then the conversation shifted back to work and we had a couple more beers. We both moved on to other jobs not long after that, but I tried to look him up a few times, maybe have a couple beers for old times' sake. Do you know how hard it is to find someone with the most common last name in America?
Life is short, everybody. Just accept people for who they are instead of who you want them to be. We're all gonna leave this planet some day. Let's make the best of the time we have and be good to each other... That is all. Carry on.
Life is short, everybody. Just accept people for who they are instead of who you want them to be. We're all gonna leave this planet some day. Let's make the best of the time we have and be good to each other... That is all. Carry on.
My understanding is that SEX refers to whether one is male or female.
GENDER is a grammatical term, used in some languages (like French and Spanish) when nouns take certain word (Work-endings). Why? Lost in the mists of time - probably based (in Europe) on ancient Latin, but why did those who spoke ancient Latin choose to do this?
But in recent years, gender has been co-opted by the woke brigade to try to distinguish between - between what? What one is, and what one wants to be? With all the problems being a woman brings, it beats me why men, with so many advantages, should want to "be" women.
The use of "they" to define a single person is just plain weird. He/she/it. They?? What, do such people have split or multiple personalities as well as "gender dysfunction"? To use "they" to mean a singular person is confusing - I'm always looking for the other person or people involved. "They" is plain lazy, and ignorant, or both.
I do wonder if there would be less of this "gender dysfunction" if the pressure to be a thuggy macho male were less prevalent. If men were able to enjoy their more caring or sensitive side instead of being beer-swigging football fans with noisy cars.
My understanding is that SEX refers to whether one is male or female.
GENDER is a grammatical term, used in some languages (like French and Spanish) when nouns take certain word (Work-endings). Why? Lost in the mists of time - probably based (in Europe) on ancient Latin, but why did those who spoke ancient Latin choose to do this?
Gender is a proactive assignment of certain traits, characteristics, and behaviors that we arbitrarily assign to a human being at birth based upon their sexual organs. Academia uses the simple statement that we "do gender." All we did when the baby popped out with a penis is treat it a certain way, talk to it a certain way, give it clothes that look a certain way, and make a lot of assumptions about it and its future. Had it not had a penis when it popped out then the treatment would and is different, and different does not mean equal. The research has shown that we do in fact choose our gender, and it is chosen for us. Those that truly do not chose in some way, shape, or form have only accounted for 1% - 3.5% of the population.
But in recent years, gender has been co-opted by the woke brigade to try to distinguish between - between what? What one is, and what one wants to be? With all the problems being a woman brings, it beats me why men, with so many advantages, should want to "be" women.
At first gender is put on us by our parents/society. They do it to us. But as we grow up and see that genders are treated differently, and for no seemingly logical reason, then individuals may start to question the validity, or lack thereof, of the arbitrary label. They want to distinguish what society told them they are versus what they want to be.
And why would a male want to behave and be known like a woman in today's society? See your next statement...
I do wonder if there would be less of this "gender dysfunction" if the pressure to be a thuggy macho male were less prevalent. If men were able to enjoy their more caring or sensitive side instead of being beer-swigging football fans with noisy cars.
Society historically, and currently among those with these attitudes, has not allowed males to be weak, emotional, et cetera because we told them that those are not characteristics of being a man. And you have to be a man because you have a penis and thus are a male. So what you have is a group of males who society has already told are not real men because they do not meet the arbitrarily assigned bull crap that being a man entails. In our pathetically dichotomous labeling system, males have had no other recourse but to cross the fence and dress, act, look the same as a woman. Why? Because the traits that they have match those that we put under the umbrella of women. The younger generation sees no use for the gender labels except to suppress and exploit, and they are woefully correct. The only reason for the "gender dysfunction" is because we as a society are too stuck in our old ways to let it go. They are saying "stop doing gender to me" while the older generation is saying "no." It is that plain and simple. They do not have the gender dysfunction, we do.
The use of "they" to define a single person is just plain weird. He/she/it. They?? What, do such people have split or multiple personalities as well as "gender dysfunction"? To use "they" to mean asingularperson is confusing - I'm always looking for the other person or people involved. "They" is plain lazy, and ignorant, or both.
I agree with this. But it is because of my previous answer. In this arbitrary dichotomous system those that do not agree with the current and made up labels are trying to break up the system, or at least create a crack/wedge within said system where they can start to define themselves. It's not even about the word "they," which is totally confusing imo too, it's about a third category, and a forth, and a fifth, until those that use these labels as ways to control us understand that there shouldn't be any gender labels in the first place. They is neither lazy, ignorant, nor both. It is a label used to virtue signal whether or not you are ignorant, lazy, or both.
When an individual sees that we are not willing to acknowledge that we can't understand that you do gender, and that they do gender, and that they no longer want to be held captive by these labels and all of the preconceptions that come along with them - even if you do - they will see that you do not accept them for who they are or who they are trying to be. That you are judging them based on the labels you/society gave them, and they have had the personal strength and fortitude to go against those that have taken away their agency. (Whether you like it or not this is there stance and how they see you and me.)
______________________________________________
In the end gender does not exist. Period. It is a labeling system created and used to control the individual. The younger generation understands this more today than ever before. They understand it better than anyone reading my words right now. So, why are sex and gender so important? Because they are shackles that have been used to create division among us as human beings, and when we don't acknowledge this importance we are telling people that we do not care abou them and their agency. When we fight the fact that we don't understand or that it doesn't have any meaning to us or affect us we just show our ignorance and those who know better move along, because they know that even if intentions are supposedly good - their agency is already being taken away before they cross the threshold.
And for the record, when others can see that you will categorize a group of people into a "woke brigade," they already understand that you are comfortable in your shackles and you are comfortable using labels to judge and polarize yourself from them. Precisely what they are trying to break away from. Precisely what they are trying to show. They want you to have to use these new labels, or get frustrated and don't, as it shows them how willing you are try and fight for their agency that they deemed lost/stolen, and that we have had the luxury of having our entire lives. Foods for thoughts.
I understand plenty of people confusing GENDER with GENDER ROLE. GENDER ROLE is entirely social.
So, don't like that guys are supposed to be macho, beer-swigging followers of sports who dote on their cars? Don't conform to that. Be a guy who doesn't do that. Don't like the cultural expectations for women? Don't conform to them. Doesn't mean you changed your gender- you just changed your ROLE.
I had someone once say that the Mrs and myself were a "traditional couple" or something like that. That really stretches the meaning of the word "traditional." Neither of us conforms much to gender ROLES. She builds things, etc. When we're dressing for ourselves, we tend to dress alike- t-shirt, jeans, etc. In general, the most traditional thing about us is that I say I'm a man and she says she's a woman, but otherwise, conformity is hard to find. We're not defying the roles DELIBERATELY, we're just ignoring them and doing what works for us.
Naturally, someone can slap a label on me and call me closed-minded, but I really think it's easy to tell who's open-minded and who seems to follow narrow tracks of behavior.
(I'm totally just having a conversation rant, in case this comes off as more than that.)
This. A rant. Not a conversation.
2 hours ago, WordWolf said:
So, don't like that guys are supposed to be macho, beer-swigging followers of sports who dote on their cars? Don't conform to that. Be a guy who doesn't do that. Don't like the cultural expectations for women? Don't conform to them. Doesn't mean you changed your gender- you just changed your ROLE.
This too. There are plenty of men around who are kind, considerate, wonderfully well rounded men, who are so far from the "macho" male image that they must be from another planet - the macho nitwits, that is. And there are plenty of women who are pioneering, bold, won't-be-told women who have broken the "ceilings" imposed on them (generally by patriarchal or paternalistic societal norms). All power to those who want to smash those restrictive norms, whether they be male or female.
But calling a dog a cat, or a cat a dog, doesn't make it so.
I'm just nit picketing so feel free to disregard, but those that are younger and come to this site will in fact notice that GSC can't even distinguish between sex and gender. I know I know, I can feel all of your eyeballs rolling into the back of your head. But since GSC decides to put it under everyone's screen name and does it improperly so we can see it over and over, it could easily turn off those who know better who can't see past this one thing. And trust me, to some it is a huge deal. So, just throwing it out there that a simple word change would tremendously help make it look like people know what they are doing around these here parts. I know if I was trans-gendered and was coming here for healing I might think this community wouldn't care about me because of the mistake and its widespread use on the site. Just my thoughts.
Sex = Male, Female
Gender = Man, Woman
Cis-Man/Woman = Man born a male, Woman born a female
Trans-gender = Man born a female, Woman born a male
As the Holy Apostle Paul warned the church For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickednessin the high places.
Found this piece a couple of weeks ago, revealing an ancient and very powerful evil spirit that people have worshipped then and appears to be gaining worship today.
As the Holy Apostle Paul warned the church For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickednessin the high places.
Found this piece a couple of weeks ago, revealing an ancient and very powerful evil spirit that people have worshipped then and appears to be gaining worship today.
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waysider
Words and language, in general, change over time, as I'm sure we're all aware. Years ago, gender was used as a noun and sex was used to imply a verbal action. (for the most part.) It wasn't judgmental, just a statement of fact. For example, if a baby was born anatomically male, it was said that its GENDER was male. If it was born anatomically female, its GENDER was female. SEX was a physical act that sometimes had the potential of producing a baby. Of course, I realize this is an over simplification, as there is also the possibility of same sex relations, but it still implies an action. And, there are babies that are born with a combination of male and female reproductive structures. We once called them HERMAPHRODITES. That term is obsolete and has been replaced with INTERSEX. Sometimes the structural differences are externally visible. Sometimes they are internal and, thus, not visibly obvious. At times, it's difficult to make a proper identification either way at birth. Doctors would sometimes surgically alter such children to appear to have only one gender. Frequently, surgeons would elect to render them female because that surgery is less involved. That can have catastrophic results later in life because the surgeon may have misidentified the child's actual gender. Today, with advanced genetic knowledge, we have more sophisticated methods of determining actual gender than we did in times past. And, there are multiple other scenarios possible, as well.
Okay, I've gotten too far off the subject here. The rule I try to follow, when discussing such issues with people, is to listen closely and adapt my terminology to the other person's terminology. If they're really talking about a person's gender but refer to it as sex, I try to do the same. It makes for more productive conversation.
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Beguiled
In the most lovingly way possible I guess I disagree. (I'm totally just having a conversation, in case this comes off as more than that.) Adapting one's terminology to another individual's can continue to make things unclear and arguments can go on and on because people don't understand each other since their meanings do not line up. I believe that you have to define terminology first, be on the same page first before a productive conversation can actually begin. Those whose master status and identity are tied up in gender/sexuality identity will judge us based on whether or not we are respecting their language. I say their language because they are the ones proactively using and they are the ones defining it today, and therefore they are the ones who it affects the most. I feel that your response is precisely what they would expect, and then they may falsely judge us and not care what anyone around here has to say.
Again, I know I'm way down the rabbit hole of "no big deal" and "who gives an f." It's just I'm around and aware of the people I'm talking about and I know that what I brought up is both factual and an issue...for them.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the site is/has/will be judged by others based off of the misuse of a label that is voluntarily being put out into the world inaccurately by today's definitions. I am trying to say that those that this label affects will react in a way that may seem reactionary and over-the-top to you and me (not listen to anything else we have to say), but that is the reality of those that are utilizing the language today. If we wish to utilize the same language (i.e. put it on the site), we must adhere to how it is being used today - else we signal to others that we do not care about our ignorance, because we "know" or do not care that we are right. And that just sounds way too much like those we broke away from imho.
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waysider
I totally agree with this, whether it be science, social issues or antique restoration techniques. But, once that's established, I try not to get too hung up on insisting the "correct" terminology is always used unless it will really make some kind of difference. The new cringe for me is when people talk about "sex reveal" parties. HUH?? I know they're talking about revealing whether the baby is going to be a boy or girl. I go with the flow on that one.
Maybe ask the other person to clarify how they are using the terminology?
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Beguiled
I agree with everything you say waysider.
What I'm trying to say and my own shortcomings are obviously preventing me from getting my point across is that the conversation is not going to happen, there is not going to be an "other person" if we have labels up that prevent further victims from seeing this space as a safe-haven for healing. Now, whether or not we believe that a simple misunderstanding of a word could/would actually prevent a person from enjoying said content and healing of this site is obviously the line in the sand for my particular argument. But I just wanted to let it be known that from my experiences, the terminology being used here could be counter-productive towards the site's primary objective, for some people.
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waysider
Two thumbs up.
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Nathan_Jr
The ongoing discussion at large on the linguistics and biology related to gender and sex became abruptly and immediately relevant to me last night when I learned my first cousin is trans. We are the same age and were close as children. I only ever knew him as he/him. That's how will refer to him until he himself tells me otherwise.
He was born male but now identifies as female. I found out about this at the same time I found out he has been missing for one year. It was also revealed to me that he was involved in the seditious riot in D.C. on January 6, 2021.
No doubt the disparity between his extreme political identification and his gender identification had a role to play in his erratic and mysterious behavior, his divorce, his business loss, and his abandonment of his beloved daughter. I can't imagine the conflict and suffering he experiences within. Surely, one with such radical political ideology wouldn't choose to be trans!
I haven't had an opinion on this issue of gender identity. I still don't really know what to think. Still sorting it out. Generally, I just don't care about a person's sexual orientation or identity. It is simply not what matters to me.
While looking for some excellent Flat Earth debunking videos from Professor Dave (for the other thread), I found this very, very helpful video explaining sex and gender.
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Rocky
The only part I have a hard time with is when ONE person wants to be referred to as more than one person. I suppose, just like everything else about this subject, it will be normalized eventually, but it still doesn't make sense to me at this time. Case in point, Ken Jennings accommodatingly but still awkwardly referring to Mattea Roach as THEY sets off cognitive dissonance in my head.
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waysider
A long time ago, I got to be pretty good friends with this guy at work who knew a lot more about the job than I did because he had learned it from his father. He was always ready to offer help and teach me new skills. I was appreciative. We weren't really friends outside of work, but one day I offered to buy him a beer and a burger after work as a way of thanking him. As we sat there talking, the conversation turned to high school and working on old cars. "Well", he said, "I didn't work on cars because I was too busy learning about makeup and clothes." He saw my startled response and laughed out loud. "Yeah", he said, "When I was born, I was a girl." He showed me a picture of his kid and an old Mother's Day card and we talked about it a little more. He said his family had disowned him. He really opened my eyes to things I'd never thought about before. Then the conversation shifted back to work and we had a couple more beers. We both moved on to other jobs not long after that, but I tried to look him up a few times, maybe have a couple beers for old times' sake. Do you know how hard it is to find someone with the most common last name in America?
Life is short, everybody. Just accept people for who they are instead of who you want them to be. We're all gonna leave this planet some day. Let's make the best of the time we have and be good to each other... That is all. Carry on.
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Nathan_Jr
Amen.
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Twinky
My understanding is that SEX refers to whether one is male or female.
GENDER is a grammatical term, used in some languages (like French and Spanish) when nouns take certain word (Work-endings). Why? Lost in the mists of time - probably based (in Europe) on ancient Latin, but why did those who spoke ancient Latin choose to do this?
But in recent years, gender has been co-opted by the woke brigade to try to distinguish between - between what? What one is, and what one wants to be? With all the problems being a woman brings, it beats me why men, with so many advantages, should want to "be" women.
The use of "they" to define a single person is just plain weird. He/she/it. They?? What, do such people have split or multiple personalities as well as "gender dysfunction"? To use "they" to mean a singular person is confusing - I'm always looking for the other person or people involved. "They" is plain lazy, and ignorant, or both.
I do wonder if there would be less of this "gender dysfunction" if the pressure to be a thuggy macho male were less prevalent. If men were able to enjoy their more caring or sensitive side instead of being beer-swigging football fans with noisy cars.
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Beguiled
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Rocky
Food for thought.
I'm confident nobody is immune to this kind of thing.
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WordWolf
I understand plenty of people confusing GENDER with GENDER ROLE. GENDER ROLE is entirely social.
So, don't like that guys are supposed to be macho, beer-swigging followers of sports who dote on their cars? Don't conform to that. Be a guy who doesn't do that. Don't like the cultural expectations for women? Don't conform to them. Doesn't mean you changed your gender- you just changed your ROLE.
I had someone once say that the Mrs and myself were a "traditional couple" or something like that. That really stretches the meaning of the word "traditional." Neither of us conforms much to gender ROLES. She builds things, etc. When we're dressing for ourselves, we tend to dress alike- t-shirt, jeans, etc. In general, the most traditional thing about us is that I say I'm a man and she says she's a woman, but otherwise, conformity is hard to find. We're not defying the roles DELIBERATELY, we're just ignoring them and doing what works for us.
Naturally, someone can slap a label on me and call me closed-minded, but I really think it's easy to tell who's open-minded and who seems to follow narrow tracks of behavior.
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Twinky
This. A rant. Not a conversation.
This too. There are plenty of men around who are kind, considerate, wonderfully well rounded men, who are so far from the "macho" male image that they must be from another planet - the macho nitwits, that is. And there are plenty of women who are pioneering, bold, won't-be-told women who have broken the "ceilings" imposed on them (generally by patriarchal or paternalistic societal norms). All power to those who want to smash those restrictive norms, whether they be male or female.
But calling a dog a cat, or a cat a dog, doesn't make it so.
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oldiesman
As the Holy Apostle Paul warned the church For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.
Found this piece a couple of weeks ago, revealing an ancient and very powerful evil spirit that people have worshipped then and appears to be gaining worship today.
Ancient Mesopotamian Transgender and Non-Binary Identities - by Morg Daniels (academuseducation.co.uk)
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waysider
So, the answer is to tell people they're possessed by a "devil spirit"??
Yeah, I think I can see why they might feel unwelcome here.
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